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RKMeibalane
05-08-2003, 09:10 PM
How much longer will Jerry Manuel stick with Jon Garland?

It is obvious to everyone on the planet (except Manuel) that Garland is not capable of starting at the Major League level. Whatever promise he has shown in the past two seasons has been overshadowed by his meltdowns on the mound this season. The man is not capable of putting hitters away. Too many times this afternoon, we saw Garland get ahead of hitters 0-2 and 1-2, only to fall behind and give a walk or a hit. He has no mental toughness, no killer instinct. I can't believe I'm saying this, but it looks like the Cubs knew what they were doing when they traded him in 1998. Garland is garbage, and as such, should be thrown away.

Was the signing of Rick White a mistake?

Perhaps this is not the right question to ask. Rather, the question would be more appropriate if phrased, "How big of a mistake was the signing of Rick White?" Words cannot describe how terrible White has been throughout 2003. His problems began in Spring Training, when career minor leaguers started lighting him up on a daily basis. White has continued his exercise in futility, and it is costing the White Sox ballgames. If it had not been for White, Frank Thomas' homerun would have tied the game. Instead, the final score ended up being 8-5, because White couldn't shut Oakland down.

Where do the Sox go from here?

The White Sox now travel to Seattle, in the hopes of avenging last week's sweep at US Cellular Field. The Sox are still chasing Kansas City, and they will continue to do so until they can find a way to win consistently. The Sox are 2-5 in May. That won't cut it. This team needs to find a way to hold onto leads. Magglio Ordonez put the Sox ahead 2-0 early, but Garland imploded, and Oakland outscored the Sox 8-3 the rest of the way. Willie Harris has replaced Royce Clayton as the new Choice. Why Manuel continues to give him playing time is beyond me. Armando Rios has been much more consistent than either Rowand or Harris, so the logical move would be to start him until Joe Borchard is ready to take over, whenever that may be.

MHOUSE
05-08-2003, 09:33 PM
All great questions.

I say you give Garland 10 starts. That gives some AAA guys a chance to put up good numbers and 10 starts is pretty good to judge how a guy is doing. He has 2-3 more starts then. He'd better show something soon or he's in the bullpen or Charlotte. I don't care that the offense isn't helping, you can't give up 5 runs in 5 innings every time out and expect to be in it very often. Garland has had ONE good start.

Rick White looks like crap and he did in SP too. I think KW thought he was such a steal and our bullpen was so hyped that he doesn't want to admit a mistake. I have to believe that Ginter, Garland, Porzio, any of them would be better in the bullpen than White. Release him and send a message. Why doesn't Glover get more innings? sheesh

I raise a few more questions:
How long before the Willie Harris experiment is tossed until later in the season? He hasn't done didly and I would rather have Rios, Rowand, or Borchard in CF. This raises another question. When does the Joe Borchard era begin? Once he has decent stats at AAA and his Ks are down then I want him up here.

ChiSoxBobette
05-08-2003, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
How much longer will Jerry Manuel stick with Jon Garland?

It is obvious to everyone on the planet (except Manuel) that Garland is not capable of starting at the Major League level. Whatever promise he has shown in the past two seasons has been overshadowed by his meltdowns on the mound this season. The man is not capable of putting hitters away. Too many times this afternoon, we saw Garland get ahead of hitters 0-2 and 1-2, only to fall behind and give a walk or a hit. He has no mental toughness, no killer instinct. I can't believe I'm saying this, but it looks like the Cubs knew what they were doing when they traded him in 1998. Garland is garbage, and as such, should be thrown away.

Was the signing of Rick White a mistake?

Perhaps this is not the right question to ask. Rather, the question would be more appropriate if phrased, "How big of a mistake was the signing of Rick White?" Words cannot describe how terrible White has been throughout 2003. His problems began in Spring Training, when career minor leaguers started lighting him up on a daily basis. White has continued his exercise in futility, and it is costing the White Sox ballgames. If it had not been for White, Frank Thomas' homerun would have tied the game. Instead, the final score ended up being 8-5, because White couldn't shut Oakland down.

Where do the Sox go from here?

The White Sox now travel to Seattle, in the hopes of avenging last week's sweep at US Cellular Field. The Sox are still chasing Kansas City, and they will continue to do so until they can find a way to win consistently. The Sox are 2-5 in May. That won't cut it. This team needs to find a way to hold onto leads. Magglio Ordonez put the Sox ahead 2-0 early, but Garland imploded, and Oakland outscored the Sox 8-3 the rest of the way. Willie Harris has replaced Royce Clayton as the new Choice. Why Manuel continues to give him playing time is beyond me. Armando Rios has been much more consistent than either Rowand or Harris, so the logical move would be to start him until Joe Borchard is ready to take over, whenever that may be.

I agree with you about Garland I don't think this guy will ever be a major league pitcher. Rick White well thats another story he should'nt have made the team out of spring training. Today there was story in the tribune about trading Garland for the Texas Rangers leftfielder Carl Everett and I know some posters have already said no way but I say why not he could play left field for us and then that would free us up to get rid of another slacker - Carlos Lee. Everyone says Everett is a problem , but so what if he hits the way he's been. Maybe we need someone on this team who's a little nuts and has some talent. The time for Jon Garland has come and gone time to cut him loose and wish him well because this year the Sox can't expect to stay close as long as they keep trotting Garland out there to give us performances like we saw today.

GO WHITE SOX!

lowesox
05-08-2003, 10:19 PM
Garland is a victim of his own talent. And he has a ton. If you think he isn't a major league pitcher, then you haven't been watching very carefully. When Garland goes after hitters he's dominant, when he doesn't, well, he's anything but. The dominance he occasionally has, though, is proof that one day this guy is going to be a real stud. So what's he missing? I think maturity. People forget how young Garland still is. As he gets older he'll get better. I think having him start right now is a bad move.

As far as the White situation goes, he hasn't been that bad. The problem is KW grabbed 3 respectable right handers (Koch, White, Gordon) in the offseason and they've all been pretty terrible. In actuality, White has easily been the best of the 3.

I'd like to see the sox play around with the bullpen a bit. Send Garland to the bullpen and call up Ginter. As it stands right now, there is no lead big enough.

Daver
05-08-2003, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by lowesox


I'd like to see the sox play around with the bullpen a bit. Send Garland to the bullpen and call up Ginter. As it stands right now, there is no lead big enough.

Matt Ginter can't start,he is good for four innings tops with the mecanics he uses to throw his curve.

joecrede
05-08-2003, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
How much longer will Jerry Manuel stick with Jon Garland?

Until there is a better alternative.

lowesox
05-08-2003, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by daver
Matt Ginter can't start,he is good for four innings tops with the mecanics he uses to throw his curve.

I wasn't suggesting that he should be a starter. I think everybody talks about our offense as being our major problem right now, but i can think of several times where our right handed relievers blew games. I think Ginter looked good last year, lets give him a shot. Garland has been good in the bullpen too. I think it would send a message to this team if the sox went with a hungry young player (like Ginter) over a veteran who isn't performing (like say, White).

Daver
05-08-2003, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
I wasn't suggesting that he should be a starter. I think everybody talks about our offense as being our major problem right now, but i can think of several times where our right handed relievers blew games. I think Ginter looked good last year, lets give him a shot. Garland has been good in the bullpen too. I think it would send a message to this team if the sox went with a hungry young player (like Ginter) over a veteran who isn't performing (like say, White).

That leaves you with a four man rotation.

lowesox
05-08-2003, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by daver
That leaves you with a four man rotation.

I think you were missing my point. I'm not necessarily say call this guy up, or send that guy down. What I am saying is that right now we have a lot of veterans who are underachieving, and no fire. Young players bring fire with them. So maybe we should look at ways to get some young right handers down in the pen to mix things up a bit.

Daver
05-08-2003, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
I think you were missing my point. I'm not necessarily say call this guy up, or send that guy down. What I am saying is that right now we have a lot of veterans who are underachieving, and no fire. Young players bring fire with them. So maybe we should look at ways to get some young right handers down in the pen to mix things up a bit.

Rush your young pitchers and you get guys like Garland and Wells,that have no confidence,unless they trade for another starter or rush another young arm Garland stays in the rotation.

bc2k
05-09-2003, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane


Good analysis, well written.


Originally posted by lowesox
Garland is a victim of his own talent. And he has a ton.

Jon Garland is not a victim of his own talent. I don't think our standards are too high for JGar, it's normal to expect more than one good start per every 7 for ANY pitcher.

baggio202
05-09-2003, 03:19 AM
jon garland doesnt come close to the fastball kip wells has..there is a reason why littlefield said wells or nothing to the ritchie deal (god i wish it was nothing)...everyone compares garland to kevin brown...well when's the last time garland threw 98 mph???...garland's fastball is such that when he isnt perfect he is very hittable...

almost all starting pitchers are on about 25% of the time..get rocked 25% of the time... and the other 50% is somewhere in the middle....its how you learn to pitch w/o your best stuff in that other 50% that deterimes how good you will be

jon garland has about 1 good star out of every 4...which means if he is anything other than his best he is freaking worthless...again..his stuff just isnt good enough unless he is really on...and that doesnt happen enough

jeremyb1
05-09-2003, 03:31 AM
alright. first of all, garland's problem is not his stuff. maybe his stuff doesn't paralell kevin brown's but when he keeps his sinker low in the strike zone, it is better than most any other pitchers in baseball. garland's problem is that he's not buckling down and that he's not demonstrating good command, not that he lacks quality pitches. cutting garland would be one of the most ridiculous moves in sox history. garland still has incredible talent, he's very young, and and he has an option so there's absolutely no reason to cut him instead of sending him to the pen or charlotte at this point.

as for white, he was signed by kw to a contract worth hundreds of thousands of dollars in the offseason. if you think jr considers cutting him to be an option at this point, you've lost it. he's here for quite a while, most likely the remainder of the season. we'll have to deal with it and hope he improves.

MHOUSE
05-09-2003, 10:33 AM
Garland has great stuff when he's on. No doubt he can be dominating at times. But until someone learns to harness and focus his talent then he's going to keep giving us one good start out of seven which is crap. I think Coop is a good coach and if he can't get Garland's head on straight then I don't think that the Sox can. It would be a shame if he became the next Kevin Brown or whomever somewhere else, but I'm tired of waiting for him to come around these last two years. We can't wait forever and until he grows up and gets some maturity and stops being a smug punk then we need a change.

gosox41
05-09-2003, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Garland has great stuff when he's on. No doubt he can be dominating at times. But until someone learns to harness and focus his talent then he's going to keep giving us one good start out of seven which is crap. I think Coop is a good coach and if he can't get Garland's head on straight then I don't think that the Sox can. It would be a shame if he became the next Kevin Brown or whomever somewhere else, but I'm tired of waiting for him to come around these last two years. We can't wait forever and until he grows up and gets some maturity and stops being a smug punk then we need a change.

My guess is Garland will eventually get traded and then begin relaizing his potential. If Coop can't reach him, then he needs a wake up call. Don't be surprised if the Sox trade him this off season, and if he goes out and lives up to the hype.

Bob

i_luv_jgarland
05-11-2003, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Garland has great stuff when he's on. No doubt he can be dominating at times. But until someone learns to harness and focus his talent then he's going to keep giving us one good start out of seven which is crap.

How do you propose he will learn to harness his talent in the bullpen when he may pitch one or two innings every once in a while?? And don't say sending him to the minors... how am I supposed to watch him there?!?
:D:

1951Campbell
05-11-2003, 04:52 PM
So Garland's got very good stuff, but he can't focus, he's immature and doesn't seem to want to work to hard...

Sounds like Calvin Schiraldi to me. Yikes. Or any number of other guys.

MHOUSE
05-11-2003, 09:52 PM
Hey Campbell, I'm born and raised in Illinois 17 years and I have been a Packer fan all along and a Sox fan since I picked up baseball as well. You're not alone! :D: