PDA

View Full Version : if Koch blows this one...


cheeses_h_rice
05-01-2003, 10:58 PM
...I say fire Manuel, just for the principle of it.

We can NOT lose this damn game.

cheeses_h_rice
05-01-2003, 11:03 PM
A walk, a single, and two very deep fly-outs...are we ever going to see the "good" Billy Koch, like, ever?

Daver
05-01-2003, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
A walk, a single, and two very deep fly-outs...are we ever going to see the "good" Billy Koch, like, ever?

JM should be fired for yanking his closer with two outs in the ninth.

cheeses_h_rice
05-01-2003, 11:05 PM
THANK YOU, DAMASO!

Man.

Good to see the Sox at least salvage 1 W out of this awful series, considering KC lost again today.

3.5 back. I don't think we deserve to be that "close" to first, really.

duke of dorwood
05-01-2003, 11:06 PM
I bet Foulke had flashbacks

Kid Kip
05-01-2003, 11:06 PM
You do not take out your closer with 2 outs in the 9th.
Foulke had to get a good laugh out of that.

Bring on Wally Bachman.

doublem23
05-01-2003, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by Kid Kip
You do not take out your closer with 2 outs in the 9th.
Foulke had to get a good laugh out of that.

Bring on Wally Bachman.

Maybe because I'm of the school of thought that says you try and win baseball games, rather than try and make people feel warm and fuzzy inside... Good move, JM.

Billy Koch, throw some strikes before you run your yap. At least Konerko's got enough sense to shut up when he's sucking up the place.

duke of dorwood
05-01-2003, 11:10 PM
I do not think this will help Koch. The lunatic is in his head.

Daver
05-01-2003, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Maybe because I'm of the school of thought that says you try and win baseball games, rather than try and make people feel warm and fuzzy inside... Good move, JM.

Billy Koch, throw some strikes before you run your yap. At least Konerko's got enough sense to shut up when he's sucking up the place.

No bad move JM,time for you to get the ax,you have no clue how to run a baseball team.

Saracen
05-01-2003, 11:12 PM
Manual made the right move. I, for one, would have been up in arms if he left Koch in & Chavez went deep.

balboner
05-01-2003, 11:14 PM
Chavez is hitting .150 vs lefties, Koch was missing his spots like crazy, I think Manuel made a great move. Just think, if Koch gave up a homer to Chavez, we would have been calling for Manuel's head for not putting in Marte

HawkDJ
05-01-2003, 11:14 PM
Good move JM. Koch got a chance to get the save but he blew it and JM got him out of there before he could explode. I don't care if he is our "closer" and we pay him alot of money, right now he is our worst reliever.

voodoochile
05-01-2003, 11:16 PM
I thought it was a strange move, but it worked out and I wasn't overly excited about watching Koch pitch to Chavez in that situation.

Isn't this how Foulke got his job by replacing a hard throwing guy who kept getting rocked (Howry)? Marte looks a lot more like Foulke than a "classic" flame throwing closer...

cheeses_h_rice
05-01-2003, 11:19 PM
I think Koch should not be closing, at least for the time being. Bring him in for mop-up duty or short relief until he gets his act together.

This game was too important to leave him in there. He was either not hitting the zone or having the crap smacked out of everything. Chavez is a Sox-killer, so putting in a hard-throwing lefty made sense, IMO, regardless of what it does to Koch's ego.

jeremyb1
05-01-2003, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by daver
No bad move JM,time for you to get the ax,you have no clue how to run a baseball team.

manuel really can't win. he makes moves to secure the win and he gets blasted. he certainly would've been blasted for bringing his closer into the game in the 9th had we lost the game. everyone seems to agree manuel has to go and no one can agree why.

"manuel should be fired for letting koch start the inning"
"no, manuel should be fired for pulling his closer with 2 outs in the 9th"

voodoochile
05-01-2003, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
manuel really can't win. he makes moves to secure the win and he gets blasted. he certainly would've been blasted for bringing his closer into the game in the 9th had we lost the game. everyone seems to agree manuel has to go and no one can agree why.

"manuel should be fired for letting koch start the inning"
"no, manuel should be fired for pulling his closer with 2 outs in the 9th"

Well at least they agree he should be fired and in the end that is what really matters...

Man this wishy-washy start to the season has people freaking out. Even after a win people are screaming...

Kilroy
05-01-2003, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by daver


No bad move JM,time for you to get the ax,you have no clue how to run a baseball team.

I gotta disagree here. JM did exactly what he should have done. His job is to win games, and if that means that his high priced, under performing closer gets his ego bruised, then that's just too damned bad. Maybe next time he will come in and a) not walk the first batter he faces, b) not follow that up w/ 2 near home-runs and a missle of a base hit.


Originally posted by voodoochile
I thought it was a strange move, but it worked out and I wasn't overly excited about watching Koch pitch to Chavez in that situation.

I wasn't excited about seeing Koch at all. I say let him pitch mop up only until he starts getting hitters out consistently. I didn't find the move strange at all, in fact, it would have been strange if he didn't make it...

baggio202
05-01-2003, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by daver
JM should be fired for yanking his closer with two outs in the ninth.

he didnt yank his closer with 2 outs in the 9th..he put him in the game to save it...if koch wanted the save he should have gotten durazo out..manuel gave him a chance

you can say it daver..come on..your new white sox closer..damaso marte!!!

Daver
05-01-2003, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
I gotta disagree here. JM did exactly what he should have done. His job is to win games, and if that means that his high priced, under performing closer gets his ego bruised, then that's just too damned bad. Maybe next time he will come in and a) not walk the first batter he faces, b) not follow that up w/ 2 near home-runs and a missle of a base hit.






Disagree all you want,the fact remains,a good manager knows that the biggest thing for a closer is confidence,and JM just knocked Billy's down to nothing.Fire his ass and move on.

baggio202
05-01-2003, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by daver
Disagree all you want,the fact remains,a good manager knows that the biggest thing for a closer is confidence,and JM just knocked Billy's down to nothing.Fire his ass and move on.

maybe with gordon and marte , manuel doesnt want koch as his closer???

im on the fire manuel bandwagon too..i dont think he is a good manager...but he made the right move tonight and it probably saved us the game because the way chavez is swinging the bat there was a good chance we would have went to the bottom of the 9th down a run...

manuel has done enough to be fired already..we dont have to make things up

jeremyb1
05-01-2003, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by daver
Disagree all you want,the fact remains,a good manager knows that the biggest thing for a closer is confidence,and JM just knocked Billy's down to nothing.Fire his ass and move on.

i wonder what would've happened to koch's confidence if he'd blown the game. i'm so tired of having koch on this team. he's blown two out of five save opportunites, has a huge era, and we can't stop the bleeding when the manager thinks its necessary because we have to worry about his confidence. how much better would our team be if we didn't have koch and manuel could just close with marte and glover. we could just worry about winning games.

Kilroy
05-01-2003, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by daver
Disagree all you want,the fact remains,a good manager knows that the biggest thing for a closer is confidence,and JM just knocked Billy's down to nothing.Fire his ass and move on.

That confidence you're talking about is a two way street. Both the pitcher and the MANAGER need it. And for Koch to get the manager's confidence, he has to earn it. Do you think he did anything tonight to earn any amount of JM's confidence at all? Would some new manager have confidence in him the way he's pitched? There's 25 guys on a team. You can't piss away the hard work of everyone else just to baby one player who isn't getting the job done.

JM deserves to be launched, but pulling Koch should not be on the list of grievances.

baggio202
05-01-2003, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i wonder what would've happened to koch's confidence if he'd blown the game. i'm so tired of having koch on this team. he's blown two out of five save opportunites, has a huge era, and we can't stop the bleeding when the manager thinks its necessary because we have to worry about his confidence. how much better would our team be if we didn't have koch and manuel could just close with marte and glover. we could just worry about winning games.

you meant marte and gordon right??? :smile:

i agree with your post...if chavez hit a 3 run dinger ..and there was a darn good chance of that...imasgine koch facing his teammates...manuel made the right move

Daver
05-01-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
That confidence you're talking about is a two way street. Both the pitcher and the MANAGER need it. And for Koch to get the manager's confidence, he has to earn it. Do you think he did anything tonight to earn any amount of JM's confidence at all? Would some new manager have confidence in him the way he's pitched? There's 25 guys on a team. You can't piss away the hard work of everyone else just to baby one player who isn't getting the job done.

JM deserves to be launched, but pulling Koch should not be on the list of grievances.

Well if you are not going to let Koch gain his confidence back,then don't bring him in the ninth,use him as Tom Gordon has been used,pulling him with two outs in the ninth was a stupid move.

Take the gamble anyway.

lowesox
05-01-2003, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
manuel really can't win. he makes moves to secure the win and he gets blasted. he certainly would've been blasted for bringing his closer into the game in the 9th had we lost the game. everyone seems to agree manuel has to go and no one can agree why.

"manuel should be fired for letting koch start the inning"
"no, manuel should be fired for pulling his closer with 2 outs in the 9th"

Yep, Manuel was perfect tonight. Closing is Koch's job, so you give him a shot. If it looks like he's not going to get the job done you bring in somebody else.

If Koch is on a good streak, you leave him in.

Well played JErry.

Kilroy
05-01-2003, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by daver
Well if you are not going to let Koch gain his confidence back,then don't bring him in the ninth,use him as Tom Gordon has been used,pulling him with two outs in the ninth was a stupid move.

Take the gamble anyway.

Which do you think would have been more damaging? Getting yanked w/ 2 outs in the 9th, or a 3 run dinger that gives up the lead?

JM gambled last week w/ Rick White followed by Gordon, and we crucified him for it, and rightly so. after losing 2 straight to these guys, there was no reason to gamble this time.

Daver
05-01-2003, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Which do you think would have been more damaging? Getting yanked w/ 2 outs in the 9th, or a 3 run dinger that gives up the lead?

JM gambled last week w/ Rick White followed by Gordon, and we crucified him for it, and rightly so. after losing 2 straight to these guys, there was no reason to gamble this time.

What if he doesn't?

You can argue what if to death,it makes no difference,the fact remains that JM just knocked Billy's confidence in the dirt to save his own ass.What has he gained when his own players don't trust him?

Viva Magglio
05-02-2003, 12:00 AM
I was at the game tonight, and I will applaud Manuel for his managerial decisions in the 9th inning. As much as I have been calling for Manuel's head, I think his bringing in Marté when he did was absolutely the right move. Had Chávez taken Marté deep, I would have still stood by Manuel on that move. Koch had nothing. The two outs he did get were deep flyouts to the Charlotte-bound Aaron Rowand. Billy didn't fool anybody tonight.

What is more important, Koch's confidence or winning the game? It's the manager's job to win ballgames and not protect players' feelings. For those of you who are ripping Manuel for taking Koch out because of potential damage to his confidence, weren't we already ripping Manuel for claiming he would "lose" Frank if he dropped him in the lineup? JM did his job tonight; we won the ballgame and pulled within 3˝ of KC and held Minnesota at bay.

Had Manuel left Koch in there and Chávez went yard on him, it is quite possible that KW would have fired JM right after the game. Manuel may be an inadequate manager for our team, but he is no dummy. He knows he's on the hot seat, and he will act in the interest of protecting his job.

Also, when Koch came off the field, he tossed his glove into the stands. That's quite odd. I've never seen that before.

lowesox
05-02-2003, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by daver
What if he doesn't?

You can argue what if to death,it makes no difference,the fact remains that JM just knocked Billy's confidence in the dirt to save his own ass.What has he gained when his own players don't trust him?

If Billy Koch is going to regain his confidence and that of his teamates he'll need to at least have one dominating performance. Even if Koch stays in this game and gets the save its a close call, and I'd still be as nervous next time he comes out.

T Dog
05-02-2003, 12:05 AM
Frank Robinson yanked his closer with two out in the ninth a couple of weeks ago. As it turned out, the new pitcher blew the save, but his closer hasn't allowed a run since. He knows he has to do the job to keep his job.

This isn't an unheard of move. When Chuck Tanner had young Rich Gossage and Terry Forster in his Sox bullpen 30 years ago, he called on the best pitcher for the situation to get the save. He had Forster and Gossage when he was successfully managing the Pirates as well.

I think pulling Koch tonight was a gutsy move. It think it was the good baseball move.

Daver
05-02-2003, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
If Billy Koch is going to regain his confidence and that of his teamates he'll need to at least have one dominating performance. Even if Koch stays in this game and gets the save its a close call, and I'd still be as nervous next time he comes out.

You may be nervous all you want,his confidence is what counts,and JM killed it.

voodoochile
05-02-2003, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by daver
You may be nervous all you want,his confidence is what counts,and JM killed it.

You keep saying that, but there is no evidence for it unless Koch fails next time as a direct result of the benching. Personally, Koch doesn't strike me as a guy who loses confidence that easily.

Daver
05-02-2003, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You keep saying that, but there is no evidence for it unless Koch fails next time as a direct result of the benching. Personally, Koch doesn't strike me as a guy who loses confidence that easily.

Watch and see.Closers are a differnt breed.

voodoochile
05-02-2003, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by daver
Watch and see.Closers are a differnt breed.

I agree, but Koch strikes me more as a guy who will take it as a challange and play with a chip on his shoulder, which wouldn't be the worst thing that could happen, IMO.

Kilroy
05-02-2003, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by daver
What if he doesn't?

You can argue what if to death,it makes no difference,the fact remains that JM just knocked Billy's confidence in the dirt to save his own ass.What has he gained when his own players don't trust him?

That's the narrow view of someone who just wants to see Manuel fired.

The fact is, even if Koch had stayed in and gotten the save, he'd have very little to be confident about. He was a bit wild, he fooled no one, nor did he overpower anyone, and the pitches that were hit were hit damn hard. I think he more likely would have come out feeling more lucky to have gotten the save than confident in his pitching...

Daver
05-02-2003, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
That's the narrow view of someone who just wants to see Manuel fired.

The fact is, even if Koch had stayed in and gotten the save, he'd have very little to be confident about. He was a bit wild, he fooled no one, nor did he overpower anyone, and the pitches that were hit were hit damn hard. I think he more likely would have come out feeling more lucky to have gotten the save than confident in his pitching...

I didn't want Manuel fired until tonite.

If he gets out of it he gains confidence no matter what,and he knows if it was shaky or not,but he also has it in the back of his mind that he got it done,that is a big point.

Don Cooper has changed a lot in Koch's delivery and his mechanics,Koch is working in the rehab center everyday on this,and JM just told him with what he did tonite that his effort to do what was asked of him by the pitching coach was done for nothing.JM has no business undermining the confidence of his players.

baggio202
05-02-2003, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by daver
I didn't want Manuel fired until tonite.

If he gets out of it he gains confidence no matter what,and he knows if it was shaky or not,but he also has it in the back of his mind that he got it done,that is a big point.

Don Cooper has changed a lot in Koch's delivery and his mechanics,Koch is working in the rehab center everyday on this,and JM just told him with what he did tonite that his effort to do what was asked of him by the pitching coach was done for nothing.JM has no business undermining the confidence of his players.

daver..confidence is not koch's promblem..his problem is a 94 mph fastball , belt high , center cut , straight as an arrow , time and time again...for whatever reason his fastball is off 3-5 mph and until that is rectified he should not be allowed to close out games....

we are very fortunate to have 2 other guys that can close in gordon and marte...we need to use them the best we can until when and /or if billy koch can get that 98 mph heater back...billy koch is not now nor will he ever be any use to anyone throwing 94 mph...

on baseball tonight..bobby valentine praised manuel and said he made the right move....said you stick with your closer but when they struggle the way koch has you have to have insurance in the bullpen against the blown save...he said if koch was doing his job this year and got in this jam it would have been wrong for manuel to pull him..but koch hasnt been billy koch the dominant closer this year... manuel really needed this win and he it was a gutsy call tghat worked out for him..

also said what manuel should do now is call koch in his office and tell him until he gets himself straightened out we will have someone up in the pen as insurance...but that he is still the closer

T Dog
05-02-2003, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by baggio202
on baseball tonight..bobby valentine praised manuel and said he made the right move...

Then forget about him replacing Jerry Manuel.

Daver
05-02-2003, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by T Dog
Then forget about him replacing Jerry Manuel.

Maybe we could get the Baseball Tonight crew to manage the Sox,Manager by comittee.

:)

Konerko05
05-02-2003, 01:26 AM
Wasn't there just a thread bashing Manuel for his comments about not wanting to move Frank down in the order? A bunch of guys were saying he is gutless and too worried about his players feelings and such. Now Manuel is getting bashed for hurting Koch's confidence. (Moving Thomas down in the order is a stupid idea anyways but thats beside the point.)

So which one is it?

I think Manuel showed confidence in Koch by giving him the opportunity to close the game. It started to look like this was going to end up in another blown save with Koch facing a lefty so Manuel brought in Marte and we won the game. What are all you guys complaining about?? Manuel actually made a good move and you guys are all crying.

I don't understand some of you. I think Koch's confidence is more hurt by him absolutely sucking all year than Manuel pulling him in favor of a better matchup. It was the right move guys, we won. I wouldn't want Koch facing Chavez either with two men on.

WhiteSox = Life
05-02-2003, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by daver
What if he doesn't?

You can argue what if to death,it makes no difference,the fact remains that JM just knocked Billy's confidence in the dirt to save his own ass.What has he gained when his own players don't trust him?

Koch has shown little reason to be trusted so far. He's been getting knocked around. I believe that much everybody agrees on.

Besides, would the other 24 players on the team prefer their manager letting a guy who's not performing his best stay in for "confidence" and blow the game or would they rather him make the change to win the game? What's more important? I would think the team winning the game is more important.

It comes down to whether the move worked. It did. The White Sox had already lost two tough games and getting swept would've hurt all their confidence. Manuel makes the change, Marte saves the game and the team avoids the sweep, knowing they were close in all three games against one of the premier teams in the league.

I, along with many others, applaud Jerry's move.

jeremyb1
05-02-2003, 02:26 AM
Originally posted by daver
What if he doesn't?

You can argue what if to death,it makes no difference,the fact remains that JM just knocked Billy's confidence in the dirt to save his own ass.What has he gained when his own players don't trust him?

so now manuel is the only one to whom wins matter? you wouldn't have been upset if koch had blown the game tonight? there wouldn't have been a dozen threads about how the season is over all over this board? about how koch is a disaster and manuel is to blame for leaving him in?

also, i don't know why you're assuming that koch would've gotten out of it. i fail to see why manuel pulling him undermines his confidence any less than if he had blown his 3rd game in 6 attempts. the guy's era is in the 7s. at what point do we stop worrying about him and start worrying about winning games?

baggio202
05-02-2003, 02:53 AM
for what its worth..hawk said after the move that even if chavez hit it to the concourse off of marte it was still the right move..that was before marte got the out...and DJ agreed..

kermittheefrog
05-02-2003, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by daver
What if he doesn't?

You can argue what if to death,it makes no difference,the fact remains that JM just knocked Billy's confidence in the dirt to save his own ass.What has he gained when his own players don't trust him?

Or maybe Jerry has the 24 other guys on the team on his side for doing whatever it takes to win.

Koch is a veteran who shouldn't need to be coddled. Manuel made the right move to win the game. Koch can't get guys out so he doesn't stay in the game.

I still don't know what happened last year with Manuel and putting Foulke in the dog house but outside of that move I love what he does with the pitching staff. He shows confidence in guys that make outs in the pen and he is careful with the starters. You can't ask for a lot more.

ma-gaga
05-02-2003, 05:52 AM
I don't know what the big surprise is... Koch has been putting people on all his life. He gets away with it because of his fastball. If he can't crank it up, he's pretty much useless.

Regardless, his career whip is something like 1.45... Not great at all for a closer. He gets into trouble all the time.

Tragg
05-02-2003, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by daver
I didn't want Manuel fired until tonite.

If he gets out of it he gains confidence no matter what,and he knows if it was shaky or not,but he also has it in the back of his mind that he got it done,that is a big point.

Don Cooper has changed a lot in Koch's delivery and his mechanics,Koch is working in the rehab center everyday on this,and JM just told him with what he did tonite that his effort to do what was asked of him by the pitching coach was done for nothing.JM has no business undermining the confidence of his players.

Had we lost, blowing a lead in the 9th, it might have killed an entire team's confidence, instead of just one player's. If and when Koch begins to dominate, then he can play solo closer; until that time, use Marte if necessary.

Kilroy
05-02-2003, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
...I love what he does with the pitching staff. He shows confidence in guys that make outs in the pen and he is careful with the starters. You can't ask for a lot more.

I agree with this to a certain extent. Case in point: Tom Gordon. He seems to be finding his stride. He was decent a couple of nights ago, and outstanding last night. JM showed the confidence in him, and Gordon has delivered. Koch, on the other hand, has not.

Iguana775
05-02-2003, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by daver
What if he doesn't?

You can argue what if to death,it makes no difference,the fact remains that JM just knocked Billy's confidence in the dirt to save his own ass.What has he gained when his own players don't trust him?

this isn't preschool, daver. who give a crap if he hurt his feelings.

if you are not getting the job done, you get your ass yanked. Koch, IMO, shouldnt be the closer right now. he absolutly sux. i would rather have Foulke back than this POS. give Marte the closer job.

Hangar18
05-02-2003, 09:04 AM
I cant believe im Reading some of what Im reading. Some of Us are up in arms for taking Koch OUT of the game??? Come On,
I wouldve done the same thing. Actually, as soon as he walked a guy, He wouldve been out of there. Id say look, sorry Billy, youve been Terrible lately, I cant let you blow another save, your Confidence will be Destroyed and I'll be FIRED. Let Koch blow off a little steam, thats not such a bad thing. MOre important to get him ON TRACK than to BLOW another Save

Soxboyrob
05-02-2003, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by daver
a good manager knows that the biggest thing for a closer is confidence,and JM just knocked Billy's down to nothing.Fire his ass and move on.

I agree w/ Firing Manuel, but a good manager knows that the biggest thing for a TEAM is WINNING. Hell w/ the building the closer's confidence if it gets in the way of winning. Tell me, what does his having confidence or not having confidence have to do w/ the fact that he's throwing a very hittable, 95 MPH, straight fastball down the middle of the plate? All the confidence in the world isn't going to change the fact that Koch is very hittable right now.

Soxboyrob
05-02-2003, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by daver
You may be nervous all you want,his confidence is what counts,and JM killed it.

If Billy Koch is that fricking fragile, then we don't need him anyway. What good is he serving this club right now? He ought to be put in mop-up/huge lead situations until he finds whatever it is he's lost, be it confidence, talent or ability.

Soxboyrob
05-02-2003, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Or maybe Jerry has the 24 other guys on the team on his side for doing whatever it takes to win.

Koch is a veteran who shouldn't need to be coddled. Manuel made the right move to win the game. Koch can't get guys out so he doesn't stay in the game.



I'm with you, Kerm. If Jerry did anything, he raised his profile in the eyes of the players. He showed at least a fleeting interest in doing whatever it took to win, even if it meant making a move that goes against the common grain. I've been begging for Manuel to make more moves like this. I promise you that the players on the field and in the dugout were feeling a lot more confident about Marte's ability to deal w/ that situation than they'd have felt about Koch's.

Coddling is what you do w/ perhaps a 20-yr old Garland or a rookie Josh Stewart. Koch is earning several $mill and is a 4-yr veteran of this league, having closed games against the game's elite hitters for years. He knows in the back of his mind that Jerry made the right move.

Hangar18
05-02-2003, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
I agree w/ Firing Manuel, but a good manager knows that the biggest thing for a TEAM is WINNING. Hell w/ the building the closer's confidence if it gets in the way of winning. Tell me, what does his having confidence or not having confidence have to do w/ the fact that he's throwing a very hittable, 95 MPH, straight fastball down the middle of the plate? All the confidence in the world isn't going to change the fact that Koch is very hittable right now.

First, He has NOT been throwing 95 at all since hes been here.
I believe hes HURT, but thats another Thread. 2nd, why does he INSIST on throwing right down the middle, so that when the Bat Connects with the Ball, something bad happens. Namely like
a triple, hr etc. Why isnt he being told to HIT THE CORNERS???
Id say throw the old high strike, but that only works if your throwing high 90's, batter thinks its a midlevel strike, so he swings and misses. but because hes only in the 80's, guys are LAYING OFF. USE THE CORNERS BILLY

Risk
05-02-2003, 10:36 AM
As much as I believe it would be best if the Sox can Manuel, I think he made the correct move in yanking Koch last night for Damaso. As manager of a MLB ballclub, the ultimate goal is not to make all the players feel warm and fuzzy, but to win games (if you want to lose and feel warm and fuzzy, go to the damn Scrubs, cause losing is cute). Koch's poor pitching has directly resulted in at least 3 and possibly 4 losses, and it could have very well been another implosion again last night. A loss last night, even though it is only the beginning of May, would have been absolutely catastrophic to the Sox's confidence.

And if Koch is going to be a whiny b**** about being pulled, maybe he should look in a mirror and ask himself "where do all the problems start from." That way he can come to the ultimate conclusion that pitching strikes is what counts, and not being a sis about being pulled.

Risk

voodoochile
05-02-2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
First, He has NOT been throwing 95 at all since hes been here.
I believe hes HURT, but thats another Thread. 2nd, why does he INSIST on throwing right down the middle, so that when the Bat Connects with the Ball, something bad happens. Namely like
a triple, hr etc. Why isnt he being told to HIT THE CORNERS???
Id say throw the old high strike, but that only works if your throwing high 90's, batter thinks its a midlevel strike, so he swings and misses. but because hes only in the 80's, guys are LAYING OFF. USE THE CORNERS BILLY

Last night and in general he does. He didn't get the calls last night (the plate was moving around a bit and which corner was called which inning was subject entirely to the whims of the HP ump - it was bad for both teams). In general Koch doesn't have the finest control. Still it isn't like Koch just rears back and throws it down the middle hoping that no one hits it because it is fast.

I would prefer he threw the ball lower. Most of his pitches come in belt high and that is not good. If he could work down around the knees consistently then he could come up in the strike zone and his fastball would have a greater effect.

MisterB
05-02-2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
I don't know what the big surprise is... Koch has been putting people on all his life. He gets away with it because of his fastball. If he can't crank it up, he's pretty much useless.

Regardless, his career whip is something like 1.45... Not great at all for a closer. He gets into trouble all the time.

Exactly. Koch's problem isn't confidence, it's that he's relied so heavily on a straight, high-90's fastball to be effective that he's never learned how to actually PITCH. Now that that velocity has dropped he's getting hammered, and keeping him in for another batter wouldn't bring that back.