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Viva Magglio
05-01-2003, 07:05 AM
According to this morning's reports, Jerry Manuel said that he did not ask the game be halted prior to the inning in which Oakland took the 1-0 lead because Mágglio Ordóńez and Aaron Rowand were able to play catch in the fog. OMG.

Evidently, Manuel does not realize that playing catch in the fog is easier than catching fly balls in the fog. A game of catch is on a horizontal plane, while fly balls are generally on a vertical plane. Fog is usually much less dense on the horizontal plane. How stupid does Manuel think we are?

Kenny, please...

:firejerry

Kilroy
05-01-2003, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
According to this morning's reports, Jerry Manuel said that he did not ask the game be halted prior to the inning in which Oakland took the 1-0 lead because Mágglio Ordóńez and Aaron Rowand were able to play catch in the fog. OMG.

Evidently, Manuel does not realize that playing catch in the fog is easier than catching fly balls in the fog. A game of catch is on a horizontal plane, while fly balls are generally on a vertical plane. Fog is usually much less dense on the horizontal plane. How stupid does Manuel think we are?

Kenny, please...

:firejerry

Viva, sometimes you listen to the talking heads and take what they say too seriously. I heard Murph and Fred yapping about this, and ripping JM for it, and I wondered, were either of them there to see how far apart A-Ro and Maggs were? Did they see whether or not they were tossing pop-ups to each other or not? No. All they know is that Manuel said they were playing catch.

They have one third of the facts, and they are running their mouths like they know something, and you're doing the same thing, because you don't know either. You just have second hand info from a not very reliable source.

steff
05-01-2003, 07:29 AM
Well.. here's some FIRST HAND information. We were there. Our seats are right behind Maggs and the ball WAS playable. Maggs was being called off which is why he was not aggressively going for the ball. At the last second Tony yelled at him to get it. It was already too late.
It was not in any way, shape, or form JM's fault.

Viva Magglio
05-01-2003, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by steff3603
Well.. here's some FIRST HAND information. We were there. Our seats are right behind Maggs and the ball WAS playable. Maggs was being called off which is why he was not aggressively going for the ball. At the last second Tony yelled at him to get it. It was already too late.
It was not in any way, shape, or form JM's fault.

Who was calling Maggs off, Tony? Obviously, the ball got lost out there between those two people. Even if you may have been able to see the ball, the conditions were such that losing it was a distinct possibility.

steff
05-01-2003, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Who was calling Maggs off, Tony? Obviously, the ball got lost out there between those two people. Even if you may have been able to see the ball, the conditions were such that losing it was a distinct possibility.

Viva.. we were there. The conditions were not that bad. We saw the ball.

Viva Magglio
05-01-2003, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by steff3603
Viva.. we were there. The conditions were not that bad. We saw the ball.

I don't disagree with you, but you probably had a better trajectory to see it than they did. You were further back and several feet above grade level while they were directly under the flight of the ball and at grade.

steff
05-01-2003, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
I don't disagree with you, but you probably had a better trajectory to see it than they did. You were further back and several feet above grade level while they were directly under the flight of the ball and at grade.


But the fog was not that thick. We were sitting IN it at one point and could still see the ball in the air. No one else had an issue. And it was thicker several other times during the game. It just sickens me that this is in some way being made to be the excuse as to why we lost.

IMO, it had NO impact on the game.

whitesoxwilkes
05-01-2003, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Who was calling Maggs off, Tony? Obviously, the ball got lost out there between those two people. Even if you may have been able to see the ball, the conditions were such that losing it was a distinct possibility.

Tony started off on an all out dash to shallow right calling "I got it I got it I got it" and then kinda pulled up and hollered at Mags to go. Mags started back and just didn't get there in time. There's no doubt in my mind he saw the ball, he just couldn't get to it. The thing was scorched, we could hear it coming out of the sky from our seats as well as see it.

whitesoxwilkes
05-01-2003, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Viva, sometimes you listen to the talking heads and take what they say too seriously.

They have one third of the facts, and they are running their mouths like they know something, and you're doing the same thing, because you don't know either. You just have second hand info from a not very reliable source.

Viva, getting accurate baseball coverage from sports talk radio is like getting accurate political coverage from Rush Limbaugh.

Viva Magglio
05-01-2003, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by whitesoxwilkes
Viva, getting accurate baseball coverage from sports talk radio is like getting accurate political coverage from Rush Limbaugh.

Or Fox News Channel???

whitesoxwilkes
05-01-2003, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Or Fox News Channel???

My post originally said that, but I changed it because I knew the dogs would be out.

Jjav829
05-01-2003, 08:36 AM
If Tony was actually able to see the ball clearly, there is no way he would have called Maggs off. Did you see where the ball landed? It was deep into right field, way out of Graf's range. Theres no way hes going to call for that ball if he clearly sees it. Maggs did not see the ball. He stood there with his hands out. The fog was obviously bad enough to keep Maggs from seeing the ball clearly.

whitesoxwilkes
05-01-2003, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
If Tony was actually able to see the ball clearly, there is no way he would have called Maggs off. Did you see where the ball landed? It was deep into right field, way out of Graf's range. Theres no way hes going to call for that ball if he clearly sees it. Maggs did not see the ball. He stood there with his hands out. The fog was obviously bad enough to keep Maggs from seeing the ball clearly.

I think it was Tony who lost the ball, not Mags. i was sitting right next to Stef in the front row in RF. Mags didn;t give chase because it was just too little too late. Tony screwed up by thinking it was a popup he could have had.

Hangar18
05-01-2003, 09:19 AM
I was at the game last nite too, and we sat in the LF area, behind the BP, and inning before the Oakland LF and CF started to Look at each other, and acknowledged they COULDNT see the ball. They gestured to each other they couldnt see the ball, and I immediately hoped that Frank Thomas, who was batting, would launch one into the Fog, because the Oakland guys in LF/CF couldnt see it. Of course, Thomas grounded out to the infielders, who could see nicely.

LuvSox
05-01-2003, 09:36 AM
The fog escaped from Jerry's head..........

Viva Magglio
05-01-2003, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by LuvSox
The fog escaped from Jerry's head..........

That is great picture. The umpire and Macha are conferring, and Jerry is staring into space.

LuvSox
05-01-2003, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
That is great picture. The umpire and Macha are conferring, and Jerry is staring into space.

Par for the course, isn't it?

TheBigHurt
05-01-2003, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
That is great picture. The umpire and Macha are conferring, and Jerry is staring into space.

YEAH right

BE GOOD

steff
05-01-2003, 12:06 PM
Guys.. we were RIGHT THERE. Tony called to Maggs to late plain and simple. There was no way he could get to it. Hangar, no offense.. but your assessment can not be accurate from accross the field. The fog was way worse coming in from left field and swirrled up right about center field. Right field was pretty clear. We were all joking about them only being able to hit to RF because you could see perfectly there. The fog did NOT lose us this game.

steff
05-01-2003, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
If Tony was actually able to see the ball clearly, there is no way he would have called Maggs off. Did you see where the ball landed? It was deep into right field, way out of Graf's range. Theres no way hes going to call for that ball if he clearly sees it. Maggs did not see the ball. He stood there with his hands out. The fog was obviously bad enough to keep Maggs from seeing the ball clearly.

Yeah we saw where it landed. Right in front of us. Why Tony thought he ever had a chance at it is beyond me. He was pulling a Joe Greedy I guess. Had he kept his mouth shut, Maggs would have caught it, no doubt.

Iwritecode
05-01-2003, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
The fog did NOT lose us this game.

No, but it sure changed the momentum real quick...

voodoochile
05-01-2003, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
Yeah we saw where it landed. Right in front of us. Why Tony thought he ever had a chance at it is beyond me. He was pulling a Joe Greedy I guess. Had he kept his mouth shut, Maggs would have caught it, no doubt.

I know your seats are right behind where that ball landed, but on TV it looked way different. The minute the ball was hit, Maggs looked up and put his hands out in a classic "where is it" gesture. He was looking up into the fog and clearly had no idea. Graff clearly saw it all the way and started running towards it and pointing at the ball, not calling for it, but trying to tell Maggs where it was. When Maggs picked up Graff, then he picked up the ball, but by then it was rolling toward the corner.

I don't know if it would have been caught and it isn't the reason the Sox lost, but the TV perspective was much much different. Maybe Maggs blinked or got distracted at the moment of impact and when he tried to pick it up, it was too late. But, that is speculation.

steff
05-01-2003, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
No, but it sure changed the momentum real quick...

Actually it was stopping the game after that play that killed the momentum. The crowd, all 12 of us, were pumped and making noise. Maggs was clearly irritated when they called them in for the second time. There was no need at that point. It was the clearest it had been all night at that point.

voodoochile
05-01-2003, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
No, but it sure changed the momentum real quick...

Yeah, it gave the Sox players an excuse to stop trying again. Jerry's defeatist attitude has done wonders for the team...

steff
05-01-2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I know your seats are right behind where that ball landed, but on TV it looked way different. The minute the ball was hit, Maggs looked up and put his hands out in a classic "where is it" gesture. He was looking up into the fog and clearly had no idea. Graff clearly saw it all the way and started running towards it and pointing at the ball, not calling for it, but trying to tell Maggs where it was. When Maggs picked up Graff, then he picked up the ball, but by then it was rolling toward the corner.

I don't know if it would have been caught and it isn't the reason the Sox lost, but the TV perspective was much much different. Maybe Maggs blinked or got distracted at the moment of impact and when he tried to pick it up, it was too late. But, that is speculation.

Voodoo.. the second Tony said "no, you get it" Maggs took off for it. He never lost it IMO. The confused look... I dunno. Perhaps because Tony was running from second base to get what was CLEARLY a RF ball...?

voodoochile
05-01-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
Voodoo.. the second Tony said "no, you get it" Maggs took off for it. He never lost it IMO. The confused look... I dunno. Perhaps because Tony was running from second base to get what was CLEARLY a RF ball...?

Steff, I'm only telling you what I saw. It was bluntly obvious that Maggs had no idea where that ball was. Also, Tony didn't break on the ball until it was obvious Maggs didn't see it. He didn't start back immediately or call for it like he did with the turning twisting catch on the short popup - but made the right decision to back up Maggs by going to get it. Maybe because you were watching the ball, you didn't see all of this, but the cameras had a much wider perspective and were not focusing on the ball, which I had no idea where it was either - except in the air to right.

ChiSoxBobette
05-01-2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
According to this morning's reports, Jerry Manuel said that he did not ask the game be halted prior to the inning in which Oakland took the 1-0 lead because Mágglio Ordóńez and Aaron Rowand were able to play catch in the fog. OMG.

Evidently, Manuel does not realize that playing catch in the fog is easier than catching fly balls in the fog. A game of catch is on a horizontal plane, while fly balls are generally on a vertical plane. Fog is usually much less dense on the horizontal plane. How stupid does Manuel think we are?

Kenny, please...

:firejerry

COULD IT BE OUR MANAGER IS IN A FOG
LIKE YOU SAID, KENNY PLEASE FIRE MANUEL, BUT ONLY IF YOU PROMISE NOT TO MAKE BRUCE KIMM MANAGER!
:angry: :angry: :angry:

GO WHITE SOX

Mammoo
05-01-2003, 12:28 PM
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/portraits.Par.0028.PortraitImageFile.gif

"Just because I slap Saint Hillary around is no reason to impugn my veracity!"

steff
05-01-2003, 12:28 PM
And Voodoo.. I'm telling you what we saw, and heard, in person.
I'm done. There's nothing further to be gained by debating this.

voodoochile
05-01-2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
And Voodoo.. I'm telling you what we saw, and heard, in person.
I'm done. There's nothing further to be gained by debating this.

I agree. It is different perspectives. I am sure this play will be replayed alot as it was last night. See if you can catch it to see what I am talking about. Maybe I am misreading what I saw and would like to hear your perspective given a different angle on the play.

steff
05-01-2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I agree. It is different perspectives. I am sure this play will be replayed alot as it was last night. See if you can catch it to see what I am talking about. Maybe I am misreading what I saw and would like to hear your perspective given a different angle on the play.


I gave my perspective already. The ball was catchable by Maggs had Tony not attempted to play RF. There were 6 of us there last night. We all saw the same thing. And we all agreed.

Brian26
05-01-2003, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
A game of catch is on a horizontal plane, while fly balls are generally on a vertical plane. Fog is usually much less dense on the horizontal plane. How stupid does Manuel think we are?



This is a really funny statement. It's similar to Hawk's "outintensified" line after the first game. I'm not sure if you really know what vertical and horizontal mean, and I don't think you thought twice about the fog thickness comment. Both comments are totally wrong and ignorant.

Point of the matter is that people need to stop reaching so hard to rip Manual. Your post was weak.

Iwritecode
05-01-2003, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Steff, I'm only telling you what I saw. It was bluntly obvious that Maggs had no idea where that ball was. Also, Tony didn't break on the ball until it was obvious Maggs didn't see it. He didn't start back immediately or call for it like he did with the turning twisting catch on the short popup - but made the right decision to back up Maggs by going to get it. Maybe because you were watching the ball, you didn't see all of this, but the cameras had a much wider perspective and were not focusing on the ball, which I had no idea where it was either - except in the air to right.

I'm with voodoo on this one. The second that ball was hit Maggs looked straight up in the air and but his hands out. When he looked down Tony must have pointed to where the ball was because it was then he finally looked to his left and saw the ball. Tony only started running out there because he saw Maggs not moved and wanted to try and tell him where the ball was. Rowand was quoted as saying he saw the ball off the bat and tried to yell to Maggs but he obviously couldn't/didn't hear him.

Hangar18
05-01-2003, 01:21 PM
Actually Brian, I knew what he was getting at. Horizontal meaning the balls thrown AT you and Vertically referring to Pop-Ups and Fly Balls. I wouldve asked my outfielders in the Dugout (im I was the MGR of course) to go out and throw high balls and tell me if they can see them. Theyre perspective wouldve been more important to me.

Iwritecode
05-01-2003, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
This is a really funny statement. It's similar to Hawk's "outintensified" line after the first game. I'm not sure if you really know what vertical and horizontal mean, and I don't think you thought twice about the fog thickness comment. Both comments are totally wrong and ignorant.

:?:

Why were both comments totally wrong??? As the camera showed, the closer you got to the ground, the less dense the fog was. Obviously when playing catch, the ball is only about 5-6 feet off the ground and quite easy to see. A pop up is a couple hundred feet off the ground and right in the thick fog.

BTW, horizontal is across (like a game of catch), vertical is up and down (like a pop-up). His comments made perfect sense to me...

baggio202
05-01-2003, 01:42 PM
what was manuel's fault was not insisting the full inning be played out....oce the fog effected the white sox in a negative way the A's should have had to play one inning in the same weather...

this was brought up by hawk in the booth..he said while they were discussing stopping the game before that inning started because of fog that jerry should insist if they start the inning in the fog that the full inning be played before it is halted to be fair to both teams...

hawk say this coming...evidently jerry didnt

Kilroy
05-01-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
what was manuel's fault was not insisting the full inning be played out....oce the fog effected the white sox in a negative way the A's should have had to play one inning in the same weather...

this was brought up by hawk in the booth..he said while they were discussing stopping the game before that inning started because of fog that jerry should insist if they start the inning in the fog that the full inning be played before it is halted to be fair to both teams...

hawk say this coming...evidently jerry didnt

That's great logic. And if they ran up 7-8 runs in that fog, you have to hope to do the same or better? Hmmm. I think Jerry went for the game-called and not yet official plan. With the kind of luck the Sox have right now, the A's would have hit in thick fog that would have cleared at the same time the Sox notched the 3rd out...

Hangar18
05-01-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
..... With the kind of luck the Sox have right now, the A's would have hit in thick fog that would have cleared at the same time the Sox notched the 3rd out...

Heh Heh. We laughed about that last nite, betting that once the Sox came to bat, the Fog wouldve lifted Miraculously...

Konerko05
05-01-2003, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
I gave my perspective already. The ball was catchable by Maggs had Tony not attempted to play RF. There were 6 of us there last night. We all saw the same thing. And we all agreed.

If Maggs and Tony both knew where the ball was, why would Tony even attempt to make a catch in deep right field and why wouldn't Maggs call him off and go for it himself. If tony was calling a ball hit at the warning track, do you think Maggs would just stand there and go "oh well, he called it." No, thats the outfielders ball and it's his job to call the infielder off. Maggs obviously had no idea where the ball was because he was just standing there with his arms in the air and Tony was running towards him trying to show him where the ball was.

pudge
05-01-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
I gave my perspective already. The ball was catchable by Maggs had Tony not attempted to play RF. There were 6 of us there last night. We all saw the same thing. And we all agreed.

This friggin cracks me up... The ball landed about 20 ft to Ordonez's left... Okay, maybe Graff called him off, but any RF who could see the ball would have caught it, regardless of the 2B saying anything. And on the TV replay, which I saw dozens of times, Maggs had no clue. When you're at a game, you're at a unique angle and you only get one chance to see it and have an impression. I don't doubt that the fog was probably worse on TV, but saying that Maggs saw that ball is totally laughable.

Now, to defend one of Steph's earlier statements, we did not lose that game because of the fog... we lost because Mulder kicked our butt.

Jjav829
05-01-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Steff, I'm only telling you what I saw. It was bluntly obvious that Maggs had no idea where that ball was. Also, Tony didn't break on the ball until it was obvious Maggs didn't see it. He didn't start back immediately or call for it like he did with the turning twisting catch on the short popup - but made the right decision to back up Maggs by going to get it. Maybe because you were watching the ball, you didn't see all of this, but the cameras had a much wider perspective and were not focusing on the ball, which I had no idea where it was either - except in the air to right.

Wow voodoo, we agree on something for once. :smile:

Originally posted by steff3603


Voodoo.. the second Tony said "no, you get it" Maggs took off for it. He never lost it IMO. The confused look... I dunno. Perhaps because Tony was running from second base to get what was CLEARLY a RF ball...?


First hand perspective might be nice, but you see it once and even then you tend to distort it because you weren't expecting to have to recall what you saw. I didn't see it first hand but I have the advantage of replays. I watched the replay several times before I posted about this just to make sure I wasn't mistaken. Each time I saw the same series of events. Ball hit to right field. Maggs stood still in his tracks and did not move. Now any of you who have ever played OF, or for that matter even know how an OF reacts knows that anytime a ball is hit deep, the OF is going to immediately break toward the ball...if he sees it. If it is shallow in the OF where an infielder is going to make the play, the OF will still break in just in case, regardless of whether someone else calls him off. When an OF does not move, it is because he doesn't know where to move since he hasn't picked up the flight of the ball. This was a classic example of an OF not seeing the ball. Maggs stood still with his arms out and shoulders shrugged. He never read that ball.

Also, a second baseman will NEVER go that far back to play a ball. The ball landed approximately 20 feet to Maggs' left. Even a second baseman that is good at going back, such as Ray, will not attempt to make a play on that ball. Instead they will go get ready for any possible relay throw.

I don't know how I can possibly make this more clear. Even the players themselves admitted that they had trouble seeing the ball. I know you think because you had first hand perspective that you are right about this, but stop and think about the logic here. It makes no sense.

Edit: Heh, just realized that all the posts before mine covered basically the same thing I said. I guess I should have read all the posts before replying. O well, great minds think alike. :smile: