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Viva Magglio
04-30-2003, 09:13 PM
Except for Manos and probably a few others, our players are just going through the motions. As far as I'm concerned, that is completely inexcusable. I think Manuel is the biggest reason for this. His Gandhi-like style of managerial leadership only serves to manifest this lack of intensity from the non-Manos players.

It is time to replace Manuel with a manager who will be aggressive in the clubhouse. I am not saying they should hire a psychopath like Woody Hayes who will scream at them every time the lose. Just someone who will have the red ass when appropriate. The next time Manuel has the red ass will be the first.

jeremyb1
04-30-2003, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Except for Manos and probably a few others, our players are just going through the motions. As far as I'm concerned, that is completely inexcusable. I think Manuel is the biggest reason for this. His Gandhi-like style of managerial leadership only serves to manifest this lack of intensity from the non-Manos players.

It is time to replace Manuel with a manager who will be aggressive in the clubhouse. I am not saying they should hire a psychopath like Woody Hayes who will scream at them every time the lose. Just someone who will have the red ass when appropriate. The next time Manuel has the red ass will be the first.

why does it have to be about heart? if you make a mistake at work, does your boss tell you you lack heart? i think that's a b.s. excuse. why can't it ever be that we're not hitting that our starting pitching hasn't matched up with the top starters in the league or that our pen has been a huge dissapointment? its convinient to blame everything on the manager or lacking heart but if you as me its nothing but a huge cop out. this team just isn't sound right now plain and simple. it has everything to do with playing well, improving one's production, not heart.

FanOf14
04-30-2003, 09:18 PM
I think we need a new hitting coach more than a new manager (not that I like manager Ghandi, but I think Ward is causing/not solving more problems than Jerry). I haven't liked Ward from day one and I still don't like him. It seems like he has no effect (good or bad) on the players.

FanOf14
04-30-2003, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
this team just isn't sound right now plain and simple. it has everything to do with playing well, improving one's production, not heart.

Shouldn't the manager carry some blame if the team is not playing sound baseball?

Viva Magglio
04-30-2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
why does it have to be about heart? if you make a mistake at work, does your boss tell you you lack heart? i think that's a b.s. excuse. why can't it ever be that we're not hitting that our starting pitching hasn't matched up with the top starters in the league or that our pen has been a huge dissapointment? its convinient to blame everything on the manager or lacking heart but if you as me its nothing but a huge cop out. this team just isn't sound right now plain and simple. it has everything to do with playing well, improving one's production, not heart.

For you and the rest of the Jerry Manuel Defense Leauge, please explain to us why we should KEEP him as manager. And don't make excuses for him by blaming players' errors and stuff like that. Tell us how Manuel is an adequate manager by his own doing.

FanOf14
04-30-2003, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
For you and the rest of the Jerry Manuel Defense Leauge, please explain to us why we should KEEP him as manager. And don't make excuses for him by blaming players' errors and stuff like that. Tell us how Manuel is an adequate manager by his own doing.

Just to make matters clear, I am not part of the JM defense league. I have been trying to figure out how much of the team's inability to even be average on defense and their lack of fundamental ability rests on JM and the rest of the coach's shoulders. Reading some people here, you would believe that it's all up to the players and the coaches have no influence on this. If that is true, why are there any coaches at all, why not just have a bench coach to fill out the lineup card and to decide when to have a pinch-hitter/runner and when they should pull the pitcher or argue a call?

chisox06
04-30-2003, 09:35 PM
Another gripe by me, that may be related to this thread. Carlos decides to "admire" his "homerun" ball instead of RUNNING THE F****** thing out!!! Instead hes on 2nd instead of 3rd. There is nothing more than I hate than that exact thing right there. Although he scored that is 100% not the point. Hey Sox get off your arrogant asses and play some baseball. My little league coach would bench my ass for a stunt like that, absoloutely ridiculous and un-called for.

If I was manager I would sit Lee for 2 games, I dont care how hot he is, but I fogot Jerry has no cojunas, which is exactly why when Lee goes back to the bench Im sure he wont here anything about it.

ChiSoxBobette
04-30-2003, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
Shouldn't the manager carry some blame if the team is not playing sound baseball?
Yes He Should & how many years do we have to go through this with manuel & his coaching buddies. It's time to get rid of this guy and this group of coaches . I guess manuels whole year was the twinkie series. This is pitiful, no other owner & GM would put up with this group of bums.
REINSDORF GET RID OF THIS GUY AND THIS WHOLE GROUP OF PITIFUL COACHES!
:angry: :angry: :angry:

jeremyb1
04-30-2003, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
Shouldn't the manager carry some blame if the team is not playing sound baseball?

that's not what the initial post said though. the post said the team lacks heart which is manuel's fault and that's why we're losing. i think that's a cop out.

as for manuel deserving blame for our hitting and the like i suppose that's true. however, it seems to me that he's taken great lengths in the past to help players with their hitting (bp with borchard and c lee) considering that he's not the hitting coach.

jeremyb1
04-30-2003, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
For you and the rest of the Jerry Manuel Defense Leauge, please explain to us why we should KEEP him as manager. And don't make excuses for him by blaming players' errors and stuff like that. Tell us how Manuel is an adequate manager by his own doing.

i don't understand why the burden is to prove manuel should not be fired. we're talking about a manager who has been good enough in managements mind to stick around six years already. he's a former manager of the year, led a team to 95 wins and the playoffs in '00, and has finished with records that haven't been unsightly the last few years especially considering the number of players from '00 lost to injury or trades (sirotka, baldwin, eldred, perry, fordyce, johnson, durham, singleton amongst others). given most of those players had career years in '00 but that doesn't negate the fact that they've been subtracted from that club.

i think the fact that you can't even understand any reasons manuel could be kept as manager at this point shows how unreasonable this discussion has become. people are frustrated and they've found their scapegoat. you could replace manuel but i don't think that's going to magically fix out .250 team batting average.

joecrede
04-30-2003, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by chisox06
Another gripe by me, that may be related to this thread. Carlos decides to "admire" his "homerun" ball instead of RUNNING THE F****** thing out!!!

There are bigger issues with this team than Lee. The first baseman is one and the rightfielder, who, I just hope starts hitting before we are out of it this year are two.

joecrede
04-30-2003, 10:04 PM
There's a time when every manager has to be fired. Manuel has reached that point here if for no other reason than it puts KW on the hot seat.

jeremyb1
04-30-2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
There's a time when every manager has to be fired. Manuel has reached that point here if for no other reason than it puts KW on the hot seat.

although i am a manuel supporter, i feel like i could deal with his dismissal if it allowed us to get ward out of here. our offense improved immediately after he was hired in '00 but it hasn't been all that impressive since.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-30-2003, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
There's a time when every manager has to be fired. Manuel has reached that point here if for no other reason than it puts KW on the hot seat.

Hey, I like this line of reasoning. Manuel must go so KW can be next. Genius! We'll have Reinsdorf selling the team by 2004!!!

Time to clean out the barn, one stall at a time.

:gulp:

Viva Magglio
04-30-2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
although i am a manuel supporter, i feel like i could deal with his dismissal if it allowed us to get ward out of here. our offense improved immediately after he was hired in '00 but it hasn't been all that impressive since.

Von Joshua was our hitting coach in 2000. He was fired and replaced by Ward in 2001 after the "Meet the Parents" episode in Oakland. And I agree with you. Ward must go too.

baggio202
04-30-2003, 10:23 PM
its pretty obvious to me what wrong....its the same problem we have had since '01 and its the same reason why von joshua was fired for bringing it up...manuel does not enforce the basics of baseball..there is no accountability on this team..

carlos lee fails time after time with a runner on 3rd and no outs...swinging for the fences with a swing that starts in iowa and ends up in indiana..does he get bench for not cutting down his swing and just trying to get the runner home , or over if he is on 2nd ??..no..

armando rios in a close game where needs to advance runner son 1st and 2nd...lets a perfect pitch to bunt go by...then doesnt get the barrell out to get a bunt down in fair territory..he bunted it into the on deck circle ...gimem a friggen break..the grounds into a game killing 6-4-3 dp...next night he is back in CF

thomas last night..we all know the thread about aituational hitting...back in the 3 spot tonight

jerry manuel does not hold these guys accountable for not playing fundemental baseball.. he rewards them for selfish play..what happens??...you get a snowball effect of everyone pulling the ball and playing for themselves and the team concept goes right out the window....thats what we are seeing now..and its worse when you are so right handed heavy like we are because you become a station to station team...

jose valentin already addressed what wrong with this team in the paper...

spanishwhite
04-30-2003, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
he's a former manager of the year, led a team to 95 wins and the playoffs in '00

Should have been Von Joshua's award.

Man I miss him, I remember the Pedro/Sirotka duel of 2000.

You could see Joshua from the dugout going nuts and yelling at
the umps. Mocking their strike zone with a towel.

That's why we scored mucho runs in 2000. Von Joshua.

That's why we arent scoring runs in 2003. No Von Joshua.

baggio202
04-30-2003, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Von Joshua was our hitting coach in 2000. He was fired and replaced by Ward in 2001 after the "Meet the Parents" episode in Oakland. And I agree with you. Ward must go too.

why was it von that went because of that???..he was the one that blew a gaskey because they wernt at BP and were watching movies instead...so they shoot the messanger

maybe the whole joshua situation sums it up about whats wrong with this franchise

duke of dorwood
04-30-2003, 10:26 PM
Underachieving normally gets a manager fired. We are either underachieving in a big way, or our talent is really overrated. Again, rather than admit the acquired talent doesnt stack up, the manager gets canned. It would appear inevitable

Viva Magglio
04-30-2003, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
why was it von that went because of that???..he was the one that blew a gaskey because they wernt at BP and were watching movies instead...so they shoot the messanger

maybe the whole joshua situation sums it up about whats wrong with this franchise

It was lame, but it was the excuse KW needed to fire Joshua.

Lip Man 1
04-30-2003, 10:45 PM
Just wondering.....

Is the sky falling yet?

Lip

voodoochile
04-30-2003, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
why was it von that went because of that???..he was the one that blew a gaskey because they wernt at BP and were watching movies instead...so they shoot the messanger

maybe the whole joshua situation sums it up about whats wrong with this franchise

Whose responsibility is it to make sure the players are listening to his chosen position coaches? Who should be in the dugout throwing tables around when they don't listen to those coaches? You think that would happen under Lou Pinella? I'd love to be a fly on the wall in that locker room when Lou found out his players weren't doing what the hitting coach wanted. That TV or card table or whatever it was would have set a record for distance thrown and there wouldn't have been a TV or card table or any other kind of "entertainment" in the locker room again until the team turned it around.

It all comes bace to Gandhi...

voodoochile
04-30-2003, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just wondering.....

Is the sky falling yet?

Lip

No, but it's raining hail and the lightning is getting closer...

baggio202
04-30-2003, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just wondering.....

Is the sky falling yet?

Lip

the sky fell when back in '01 when k-layton came to town...its still on the ground

TheBigHurt
04-30-2003, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
the sky fell when back in '01 when k-layton came to town...its still on the ground

DAMMO......ANY sign of it coming back up?????

MHOUSE
04-30-2003, 11:06 PM
I don't understand how players lacking sharpness on defense, poor baserunning, no hustle, how not doing the little things that make good teams good are not the fault of the manager. I know Jerry isn't the one striking out or dropping the ball, but when a team lose 4-1 at home and wanders to the dugout like "aw shucks we lost" and looks like they don't care then it is all on the manger. Last night Paulie tore apart the dugout after popping out in the 9th, but other than that it's swing and mosey back to your seat on the pine. It's obvious that Ghandi has put a passive resistence to winning into his players. Nobody cares. Clean house, all coaches out!

bc2k
04-30-2003, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Whose responsibility is it to make sure the players are listening to his chosen position coaches? Who should be in the dugout throwing tables around when they don't listen to those coaches?

Great points.

SoxxoS
05-01-2003, 01:17 AM
Who would have thought we:

a)Buerhle or Colon wouldn't have 1 win in a combined 4 starts. And...

We lost all of those games. They didn't even get no decisions. That is hard to believe.

NewyorkSoxFan
05-01-2003, 06:46 AM
My take on the Manuel thing is what happens with every manager, that hasn't won a WS. He gets too much credit when they win, (in '00 everyone loved his laid back attitude and called him a players coach), and too much blame when they lose. (i.e. 01, and 02) Underacheiving players, making stupid mistakes is what he is dealing with. Granted you can't fire the players, so to shake things up the manager has to go. Although I like JM, if I were KW I might be inclined to blow the thing up before its too late.

But I also submit this, KW did a good job trying to acquire talent this offseason, but my contention is that JM has his hands tied somewhat with too many of the same types of players. PK, Clee, Frank, Maggs, are all the same types of players. Power hitters with no speed and outside of Maggs marginal defenders. We have no team speed, and it inhibits JM's ability to run, and do things other than wait for a three run homer.


NYSF

Hullett_Fan
05-01-2003, 10:01 AM
Dusty Baker would have lead this team to 18 wins by now..and I am NOT kidding! Look at what he's done with that pathetic team on the North side. Those players (though terrible) believe they can win every game. The Flub staff has been as good as ours...only difference is their bullpen is used correctly and their hitters show intelligence at the plate.

Gotta give credit when credit is due.

Clarkdog
05-01-2003, 10:30 AM
I agree that Manuel can't hit, pitch, or field for the players. The mediocre play thus far has been due the Sox inability to play well consistently.

But consider two things when it comes to Manuel:
1. If you were going into battle (and that is what a baseball game is) would you want him leading YOU?
2. Do you believe that Manuel could ever manage and win a playoff series? Those are usually tightly played ballgames, good strategy, leadership and decision-making are key.

My answer to those two questions is NO.

And I think the players know it as well. That's why there is no fire on this club. It's a silent cry for help - they aren't playing for him anymore. They need (want) someone to get them over the hump. My gut says they haven't gotten past the 2000 playoff sweep to Seattle where Manuel admitted he was out-managed.

Hangar18
05-01-2003, 12:00 PM
yes, Jerry M cant hit or field for the guys, but His moves/lack of moves have cost Us 4 wins. Thats quite a Swing, esp this early in the season. Those games Already hurt us and are the difference between being 18-10 and in 1st Place as opposed to 14-13 and Floundering. A Manager is Supposed to Influence the Team Positively and not in the Standings, which unfortuneately is the Case. MLB Umpires have not Helped, Influencing 2 games also that couldve gone our way, we'll never know, because the Umps decided to Not do their Jobs. If The umpires dont BLOW THOSE CALLS, Imagine the Sox being 20-8
Right now? Can you imagine the conversations we'd be having At WSI if that was our Record? This isnt whining and blaming others, etc, but a Decent MGR, a little Luck, and NO UMPS Poor Calls make this a different Season. We would be 20-8, and thats with the same guys NOT HITTING which is the case.