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View Full Version : Good thing we gave up Foulke


faneidde
04-30-2003, 12:16 PM
Been reading this site all year, but this is my first post. Anyway, Foulke struggled a little in the middle portion of last year, so we bench him and eventually trade him for a guy who is past his prime and makes a lot more money. Now, Keith's having a great year and Koch is struggling. However, Rowand, who hasn't hit anything ever, keeps getting chances. Having Daubach pinch hit for Rowand last night might have set a record: lowest combined batting average of two players ever to be invovled in a pinch hit situation. Just a shade over .200 between the 2.

voodoochile
04-30-2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by faneidde
Been reading this site all year, but this is my first post. Anyway, Foulke struggled a little in the middle portion of last year, so we bench him and eventually trade him for a guy who is past his prime and makes a lot more money. Now, Keith's having a great year and Koch is struggling. However, Rowand, who hasn't hit anything ever, keeps getting chances. Having Daubach pinch hit for Rowand last night might have set a record: lowest combined batting average of two players ever to be invovled in a pinch hit situation. Just a shade over .200 between the 2.

Welcome Aboard! :)

thecell
04-30-2003, 01:28 PM
I CAN'T STAND THIS FOULKE LOVEFEST ANYMORE!!! HE'S NOT ON OUR TEAM, GIVE IT UP!!!

SoxxoS
04-30-2003, 01:51 PM
Having Daubach pinch hit for Rowand last night might have set a record: lowest combined batting average of two players ever to be invovled in a pinch hit situation. Just a shade over .200 between the 2

I seriously think you might be on to something. That might be a record.

DrCrawdad
04-30-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I seriously think you might be on to something. That might be a record.

Time to send Rowand down to AAA to work on his swing and bring up either Wee Willie Harris or Joe Borchard.

StepsInSC
04-30-2003, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by thecell
I CAN'T STAND THIS FOULKE LOVEFEST ANYMORE!!! HE'S NOT ON OUR TEAM, GIVE IT UP!!!

Agreed

Daver
04-30-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
Time to send Rowand down to AAA to work on his swing and bring up either Wee Willie Harris or Joe Borchard.


Harris in CF ?


Now that is a scary thought.

rdivaldi
04-30-2003, 02:43 PM
Time to point out the falacies and ridiculous overreatctions in that post...

Foulke struggled a little in the middle portion of last year,

A little? That's an understatement.

eventually trade him for a guy who is past his prime

Past his prime at 28? Um, no....

and makes a lot more money.

2003 salaries:

Foulke: $6 mil
Koch: $4.25 mil

Perhaps you should do some research and think a little before venting.

I don't think most could deny the fact that Foulke is slightly better than Koch over their careers. The numbers don't lie. However, this trade was done because Foulke was not going to be re-signed in 2004, and Koch could, and was.

Chill out.

gosox41
04-30-2003, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by rdivaldi


I don't think most could deny the fact that Foulke is slightly better than Koch over their careers. The numbers don't lie. However, this trade was done because Foulke was not going to be re-signed in 2004, and Koch could, and was.

Chill out.

And that leaves the Sox with 2 years and $10 mill. invested in a pitcher who is highly overrated and probably on the downside of his career.

I'd rather have lost Foulke for nothing.

Also, for the record, the Sox split the difference in Koch's and Foulke's salary this season so they only saved themselves $1 mill. instead of almost $2 mill.

Bob

Randar68
04-30-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
And that leaves the Sox with 2 years and $10 mill. invested in a pitcher who is highly overrated and probably on the downside of his career.

I'd rather have lost Foulke for nothing.

Also, for the record, the Sox split the difference in Koch's and Foulke's salary this season so they only saved themselves $1 mill. instead of almost $2 mill.

Bob


Downside of his career at 28???

Where do you people come from? Foulke is 30 freaking years old!

There are plenty of logical reasons and facts to support them if you wish to support Foulke or bash Koch. However, you dopes can't come up with any of them!

LuvSox
04-30-2003, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by faneidde
[B]Been reading this site all year, but this is my first post. Anyway, Foulke struggled a little in the middle portion of last year, so we bench him and eventually trade him for a guy who is past his prime and makes a lot more money. Now, Keith's having a great year and Koch is struggling.

Hindsight? 20/20

gosox41
04-30-2003, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Downside of his career at 28???

Where do you people come from? Foulke is 30 freaking years old!

There are plenty of logical reasons and facts to support them if you wish to support Foulke or bash Koch. However, you dopes can't come up with any of them!

Now you're resorting to name calling?

Age isn't always the biggest factor in determining the downside of someone's career. How about the fact that Koch was never as good as Foulke to begin with. This is something I've stated repeatedly. SINCE THE DAY THE TRADE WAS MADE I'VE BEEN 100% AGAINST IT. Read my previous posts.

I've cited issues as Foulke being statistically better. I've also talked about Koch being a power pitcher and having a heavy workload last season which doesn't always bode well for power relievers long term success. I beleive I made a comparison of Koch to Thigpen after the 1990 season. There was a decline in Thigpen's veolocity and effectiveness then. Notice any trends with Koch? Or am I the only 'Dope' who thinks about these things instead of sayying that Koch is 2 years younger and therefore isn't on the downside of his career.

Bob

DrCrawdad
04-30-2003, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by daver
Harris in CF ?


Now that is a scary thought.

I'm no basher of Rowand. I love Rowand's heart and hustle. That said, except for his RBI last night, Rowand has looked completely out of whack at bat. I'd love to see Rowand turn it around but how long can we wait? It's not like the rest of the lineup is carrying him very well.

BTW last night when Singleton hit the triple I thought that was mainly because Rowand misplayed the ball.

Harris in CF is not what I'm dreaming about, but the Sox lineup sure could use someone to get on base and it wouldn't hurt if that person had a little speed.

Daver
04-30-2003, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
I'm no basher of Rowand. I love Rowand's heart and hustle. That said, except for his RBI last night, Rowand has looked completely out of whack at bat. I'd love to see Rowand turn it around but how long can we wait? It's not like the rest of the lineup is carrying him very well.

BTW last night when Singleton hit the triple I thought that was mainly because Rowand misplayed the ball.

Harris in CF is not what I'm dreaming about, but the Sox lineup sure could use someone to get on base and it wouldn't hurt if that person had a little speed.

I have never thought Rowand should be on the Sox roster,but he is a better defensive CFer than Willie Harris will ever be.

You want speed and defense call up Joe Borchard.


And yes Aaron blew it on singleton's triple.

Paulwny
04-30-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
I love Rowand's heart and hustle.


Agree, plenty of heart and hustle, limited ability, reminds me of John Cangelosi.

hold2dibber
04-30-2003, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Now you're resorting to name calling?

Age isn't always the biggest factor in determining the downside of someone's career. How about the fact that Koch was never as good as Foulke to begin with. This is something I've stated repeatedly. SINCE THE DAY THE TRADE WAS MADE I'VE BEEN 100% AGAINST IT. Read my previous posts.

I've cited issues as Foulke being statistically better. I've also talked about Koch being a power pitcher and having a heavy workload last season which doesn't always bode well for power relievers long term success. I beleive I made a comparison of Koch to Thigpen after the 1990 season. There was a decline in Thigpen's veolocity and effectiveness then. Notice any trends with Koch? Or am I the only 'Dope' who thinks about these things instead of sayying that Koch is 2 years younger and therefore isn't on the downside of his career.

Bob

Randar frequently resorts to name calling. Often, after misreading or failing to read (or think through) a post, he then calls the poster a name. Your response is perfect.

kermittheefrog
04-30-2003, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by LuvSox
Hindsight? 20/20

Ever notice that a lot of people weren't in favor of the Koch trade from day one?

baggio202
04-30-2003, 09:43 PM
billy bean knew koch was damaged goods when dumped him on us..kw just got fleeced again..what else is new???

you knows what funny..the guy writing for the comcast cable guide in april wrote an article on the sox..his biggest concern...would billy botch be healthy after being overorked in oakland???...this was written before the season started...even the cable guy saw it coming

WhiteSox = Life
04-30-2003, 10:20 PM
:KW
"I think I know who my new manager is going to be!"

gosox41
05-01-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Ever notice that a lot of people weren't in favor of the Koch trade from day one?

Unfortunately there was one guy in favor of it and he has the power to ignore/over ride our opinions. Of course I'm speaking of my favorite whipping boy:

:KW
I traded for Koch because he throws soooooo hard. Now leave me alone, I need to ride my bike and think up other stupid moves to show I have the power to screw up a MLB franchise. BTW, did you notice who is ranked #16 in SI's list of powerful minorities in sports? I'll be number one in a couple of years when the Detroit Tigers pass us in the standings.

Randar68
05-01-2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Randar frequently resorts to name calling. Often, after misreading or failing to read (or think through) a post, he then calls the poster a name. Your response is perfect.


It was more of a generic post asking where people were getting this crap from. None of it had been discussed in this thread, and people are just throwing crap like "Koch is on the downside of his career". If you are going to say that about a 28 year old pitcher, back it up.

Look, I questioned that trade as much as anyone, not necessarily for the $$$ aspect of it or the Koch/Foulke aspect of it, but because we gave up Joe Valentine. It was a lame trade IMO as well, and Koch has always had a propensity to get into trouble by walking guys. Last year, the A's always picked him up when he blew leads. The Sox hitters like to take a nap after the 6th inning, so it isn't happening here. I liked Foulke a lot and have defended him against the "Closers have to be fireballers" threads for the past 3 years.

However, the trade was made months ago. How many times are we going to relive it and continue to beat this dead horse?



"Frequently resorts to name calling?"

Please. This board is so 4th grade I barely read it anymore. When I do, I have to deal with this crap and the "Sky is falling Brigade"...

It's hard to sort through 1000+ posts a day to find the 10 intelligent ones.

DrCrawdad
05-01-2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
..."Frequently resorts to name calling?"

Please. This board is so 4th grade I barely read it anymore. When I do, I have to deal with this crap and the "Sky is falling Brigade"...

It's hard to sort through 1000+ posts a day to find the 10 intelligent ones.

Hey don't close the book on the board here. Many of us are just a little edgy seeing the Sox stumble (again) out of the gate.

baggio202
05-01-2003, 02:27 PM
the sky fell the day KW took over as GM...and will probably stay fallen till he leaves...make that till JR sells

JUGGERNAUT
05-01-2003, 03:50 PM
Look at their stats over the last 4 yrs.
You can either look at the cummulative or compare each players 2 best yrs.

Res ipsa loquitor.

Regardless of which comparison you use, Koch has more scoreless appearances & more scoreless innings pitched than Foulke. In my opinion, that makes for a better closer.

So far this year,
Foulke has 9/12 scoreless appearances & Koch has 8/13 scoreless appearances.

Without question, when Koch is not on, he is really off bad. His era & all other main pitching cats suffer as a result.

But when you compare either their best yrs or their cum yrs, Koch is on more often than Foulke.

baggio202
05-01-2003, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by espnjohn1
Look at their stats over the last 4 yrs.
You can either look at the cummulative or compare each players 2 best yrs.

Res ipsa loquitor.

Regardless of which comparison you use, Koch has more scoreless appearances & more scoreless innings pitched than Foulke. In my opinion, that makes for a better closer.

So far this year,
Foulke has 9/12 scoreless appearances & Koch has 8/13 scoreless appearances.

Without question, when Koch is not on, he is really off bad. His era & all other main pitching cats suffer as a result.

But when you compare either their best yrs or their cum yrs, Koch is on more often than Foulke.

here are some stats that show koch vrs the other top closers in baseball..imo..he just doesnt stack up very well..
name.............k/9....bb/9....BAA.....WHIP......save pct.......era
koch............. 7.9 ... 3.8......244..... 1.33 ..... 84%............ 3.67
percival........ 11 .... 3.9......182..... 1.09 ...... 86% .......... 2.97
wagner........ 12.6.. 3.6......190..... 1.07 ...... 84% .......... 2.66
rivera........... 8.1.... 2.6......212..... 1.07 ...... 87% .......... 2.60
sasaki.......... 10.1.. 3.0......201..... 1.08 ...... 85% .......... 3.26
foulke........... 8.5.... 2.2.....220...... 1.06....... 84% .......... 3.33
nen.............. 9.9.... 3.3......227..... 1.21....... 85% ........... 2.98
hoffman....... 10.2.. 2.7......205...... 1.06....... 89% .......... 2.79

gosox41
05-01-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
It was more of a generic post asking where people were getting this crap from. None of it had been discussed in this thread, and people are just throwing crap like "Koch is on the downside of his career". If you are going to say that about a 28 year old pitcher, back it up.

Look, I questioned that trade as much as anyone, not necessarily for the $$$ aspect of it or the Koch/Foulke aspect of it, but because we gave up Joe Valentine. It was a lame trade IMO as well, and Koch has always had a propensity to get into trouble by walking guys. Last year, the A's always picked him up when he blew leads. The Sox hitters like to take a nap after the 6th inning, so it isn't happening here. I liked Foulke a lot and have defended him against the "Closers have to be fireballers" threads for the past 3 years.

However, the trade was made months ago. How many times are we going to relive it and continue to beat this dead horse?



"Frequently resorts to name calling?"

Please. This board is so 4th grade I barely read it anymore. When I do, I have to deal with this crap and the "Sky is falling Brigade"...

It's hard to sort through 1000+ posts a day to find the 10 intelligent ones.

I'll keep bringing the trade up as long as Koch is pitching for the Sox and Kenny Williams makes his stupid trades. JR needs to know the fans aren't satisfied with the crap that's going on with this team.

Bob

lowesox
05-01-2003, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
I'm no basher of Rowand. I love Rowand's heart and hustle. That said, except for his RBI last night, Rowand has looked completely out of whack at bat. I'd love to see Rowand turn it around but how long can we wait? It's not like the rest of the lineup is carrying him very well.

BTW last night when Singleton hit the triple I thought that was mainly because Rowand misplayed the ball.

Harris in CF is not what I'm dreaming about, but the Sox lineup sure could use someone to get on base and it wouldn't hurt if that person had a little speed.

I've never like Willie Harris, but if the Sox do make a change in CF I hope its for him instead of Borchard. Why? Because I think the WhiteSox organization has way too many fairweathered fans. Just today for instance, I read somebody write that Crede was overhyped - all because he's slipped into a two week funk. And Borchard looks not only like an offensive star but also a very marketable player. So if I'm KW the last thing I'll want to do is throw him to the wolves too soon and have WhiteSox fans giving up on him because he went 0-5 in his first game back up.

JUGGERNAUT
05-01-2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
here are some stats that show koch vrs the other top closers in baseball..imo..he just doesnt stack up very well..
name.............k/9....bb/9....BAA.....WHIP......save pct.......era
koch............. 7.9 ... 3.8......244..... 1.33 ..... 84%............ 3.67
percival........ 11 .... 3.9......182..... 1.09 ...... 86% .......... 2.97
wagner........ 12.6.. 3.6......190..... 1.07 ...... 84% .......... 2.66
rivera........... 8.1.... 2.6......212..... 1.07 ...... 87% .......... 2.60
sasaki.......... 10.1.. 3.0......201..... 1.08 ...... 85% .......... 3.26
foulke........... 8.5.... 2.2.....220...... 1.06....... 84% .......... 3.33
nen.............. 9.9.... 3.3......227..... 1.21....... 85% ........... 2.98
hoffman....... 10.2.. 2.7......205...... 1.06....... 89% .......... 2.79

Again, you need to go inside the numbers to see Koch's effectiveness as a closer. Consider for instance his 2K2 season with Oakland. 24 of the 34 earned runs against him came in fewer than 10 gms against 2 teams : TOR & TEX. He pitched in 84 gms for the A's last yr. That means he surrendered only 10 er's over better than 70 gms.

That seems pretty dominant to me.

Since racking up scoreless appearances is what really matters for a closer perhaps there should be another stat to measure them : game era average. Instead of simply dividing ip by er's for the season, calculate the era for each game & then average it over all games. I'll try to do this for Foulke & Koch in 2002.

maurice
05-02-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by espnjohn1
Res ipsa loquitor.

Originally posted by espnjohn1
Again, you need to go inside the numbers to see Koch's effectiveness as a closer.

:?:


If the facts speak for themselves, why do you "need to go inside the numbers"?

Stats can be manipulated to show a great many untrue things. Lets stick to the basic stats, since both sides have tried to use ancillary stats to prove their point. Without overanalyzing the issue, their career stats do speak for themselves. Koch has been pretty good, but Foulke has been better:

Koch - 3.65 ERA, 1.33 WHIP
Foulke - 3.32 ERA, 1.06 WHIP

Their career save percentages are virtually identical, though Koch has had significantly more opportunities to close out games. This is significant because a setup man has plenty of chances to blow a save, but very few chances to earn a save.

For those who say that Koch is on the upside of his career while Foulke is on the downside, please note that Foulke has not posted an ERA over 3.00 since 1998. OTOH, Koch's ERA has been over 3.00 every year since 2000.