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View Full Version : What is Jerry thinking?


Dan Gelo
04-30-2003, 01:03 AM
There have been two instances like this in the past week. Sox losing by one run in the 9th. Who does Jerry Manuel send out to pinch hit? Brian Daubach, who was hitting around .053 the first time and .083 the next. Will somebody please tell me why. I can understand the righty-righty righty-lefty scenario, but if a guy has got 1 hit in 23 at bats you should know not to send him into this situation. A good explanation please?

Daver
04-30-2003, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by Dan Gelo
There have been two instances like this in the past week. Sox losing by one run in the 9th. Who does Jerry Manuel send out to pinch hit? Brian Daubach, who was hitting around .053 the first time and .083 the next. Will somebody please tell me why. I can understand the righty-righty righty-lefty scenario, but if a guy has got 1 hit in 23 at bats you should know not to send him into this situation. A good explanation please?

Hey welcome aboard! :redneck

baggio202
04-30-2003, 01:10 AM
wasnt it rowand he pinch hit for???...rowand against foulke???...despite his poor start daubach is a guy that has hit 20 or more homers the past four seasons and has the same career OPS as konerko...with two outs and no one one he was looking for the long ball...for the guys on the bench daubach gave us the best chance...

the other option off the bench was rios...i wouldnt have balked at using him either

Dan Gelo
04-30-2003, 01:32 AM
That was last year. If you remember David Wells had some decent years before coming here as well. And after that Todd Ritchie looked as though he could have some real potential as well. The red sox wouldn't have gotten rid of him if he was thought to be in the same class with Konerko(the human double play machine) of last year(all star).

MHOUSE
04-30-2003, 08:14 AM
I'd take Daubach vs. Foulke over Rowand vs. Foulke. He's a lefty and he'll bust out of his slump sooner or later. He's a streaky hitter and had he homered we all would've been praising Jerry's genius. I liked that he pinch-hit with Jose, that was a smart move.

hold2dibber
04-30-2003, 09:07 AM
I though using Daubach was the right thing to do. He has struggled, but he is a proven major league hitter. I think the problem is that Daubach isn't getting enough at-bats. He should be starting at least one, if not two, games per week.

Hangar18
04-30-2003, 09:40 AM
All I know is, of the 3 Oakland runs, 2 were from Timely Hitting,
and the 1, the Most Important, was MANUFACTURED. We didnt MFR runs yesterday, despite having runners in scoring position a couple times, including 1st and 2nd noone out. Terrible. These are the Games Losing Teams Lose, and Winning Teams Win.
This is why im losing confidence in this team. They dont understand Timely Hitting/Moving Runners Up. Sure, your going to lose some games, its expected. but The difference between games like this is THIN and what we do in these games Determines the Season Basically.

Kilroy
04-30-2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
All I know is, of the 3 Oakland runs, 2 were from Timely Hitting,
and the 1, the Most Important, was MANUFACTURED.

Which of Oakland's 3 tallies was manufactured??

You had a lead-off single followed by an RBI triple. Not that one.

Then you had a sac fly. Not that one since nothing was done to advance Singleton to third.

The last run was a double followed by a single. That was not a manufactured run either.

So just what the hell are u talking about?? Timely hitting I can agree with. Manufactured runs from the A's last night?? Not a one...

Hangar18
04-30-2003, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Which of Oakland's 3 tallies was manufactured??

Then you had a sac fly. Not that one since nothing was done to advance Singleton to third.

So just what the hell are u talking about?? Timely hitting I can agree with. Manufactured runs from the A's last night?? Not a one...

Kilroy, thats the one Im talking about. The guy Flies out to Right, making an out, but still puting the ball in Play to Get the Run In.
thats Manufacturing a Run in My Book.

Hangar18
04-30-2003, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Which of Oakland's 3 tallies was manufactured??

Then you had a sac fly. Not that one since nothing was done to advance Singleton to third.

So just what the hell are u talking about??

Good Comeback Huh? heh heh.

Kilroy
04-30-2003, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Kilroy, thats the one Im talking about. The guy Flies out to Right, making an out, but still puting the ball in Play to Get the Run In.
thats Manufacturing a Run in My Book.

Would it be manufacturing a run if the pitcher walked the first 3 hitters and then the next guy grounded into 6,4,3 dp? The guy grounded out, but still put the ball in play to get the run home.

I'm not gonna give them credit for manufacturing a run when a guy hit a triple and then got sac'ced home.

A manufactured run is usually something like stealing second, sac bunted to third, then the sac fly. The sac fly alone does not make it a manufactured run. Anyone else care to chime in??

Hangar18
04-30-2003, 10:43 AM
Kilroy, I See where your going with that. your right mostly. BUT, in the book "Manufacturing Runs for Dummies", any run that is scored without benefit of an Error or a Hit, would count as a Manufactured Run. sure, it doesnt look glamourous, but the SF Fly IS MANUFACTURED. Likewise, the 6-4-3 DP is totally not glamourous (which I agree there should be no rbi given) But It is in a CRUDE way, Also A Manufactured Run. Putting the Dang Ball In play, making things happen.

Kilroy
04-30-2003, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Kilroy, I See where your going with that. your right mostly. BUT, in the book "Manufacturing Runs for Dummies", any run that is scored without benefit of an Error or a Hit, would count as a Manufactured Run. sure, it doesnt look glamourous, but the SF Fly IS MANUFACTURED. Likewise, the 6-4-3 DP is totally not glamourous (which I agree there should be no rbi given) But It is in a CRUDE way, Also A Manufactured Run. Putting the Dang Ball In play, making things happen.

A run is manufactured more by what is done to get the runner into scoring position, not as much by what gets him across the plate. And in your own definition, quoted above, from your book for Dummies which it seems you haven't read, you say that a MFR'ed run is any run that is scored w/out the benefit of a hit. Well last time I checked, an RBI triple was a hit. Your own definition would seem to disqaulify any of Oak's runs last night, don't you think??

And I'm sorry, but there is no way in hell that 3 no-out walks and a DP grounder would constitute a manufactured run. Get real.

Jucier Cruz
04-30-2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Kilroy, I See where your going with that. your right mostly. BUT, in the book "Manufacturing Runs for Dummies", any run that is scored without benefit of an Error or a Hit, would count as a Manufactured Run. sure, it doesnt look glamourous, but the SF Fly IS MANUFACTURED. Likewise, the 6-4-3 DP is totally not glamourous (which I agree there should be no rbi given) But It is in a CRUDE way, Also A Manufactured Run. Putting the Dang Ball In play, making things happen.

Grounding into a double play does not give you an RBI and is therefore not manuafacturing a run, in my mind. The sac fly after a triple is boarderline. If the guy pops out, strikes out he doesn't get the run in. A grounder to the right side and maybe not either. Aaron Raownd manufactured the first and second runs. He should have gone all out and dove for the ball or played if off the wall and possibly held the guy at third and only allowed a double.

Hangar18
04-30-2003, 11:10 AM
Kilroy, Why Do you keep Focusing on the RBI Triple. yes, the run that scored because of the Triple DOESNT COUNT. put that one in the
"Timely Hitting" file. Now that hes at third, if he Scores because of a HIT, that wouldnt be MFR'ing a Run. But putting the Ball IN PLAY, to ground out, fly out, Pop Out, Bunt Out, Sacrifice whatever, if the batters OUT still moves the Runner Up and Scores a Run, THAT IS MFR'ing a RUN. I didnt have to read the Book, because I WROTE IT. yes, a 643 dp really doesnt count if it scores a run, but its still MFR'd. its just an Ugly Way to Do it and not one a hitter will admit to doing.

Hangar18
04-30-2003, 11:13 AM
Grounding into a DP to score a run SHOULDNT count as an RBI, I agree, BUT it still MANUFACTURES that run. I never said it counted, so lets get that out of the way. If the bases are loaded, noone out, and were tied or down a run, im the MGR, I tell my Hitter, DO ANYTHING TO MAKE CONTACT, just get that dang ball in Play so We SCORE this run. Yes, its UGLY, but its MFR'd.

Kilroy
04-30-2003, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Kilroy, Why Do you keep Focusing on the RBI Triple. yes, the run that scored because of the Triple DOESNT COUNT.


Are you really that thick-headed? Ok, I'll break it down for you. A player cannot score on a sac fly unless he's on third base, right? So, in determining whether a run scores with or without the benefit of a hit, you have to consider how the runner got to third. So last night, Singleton scored on a sac fly, but he got to the position where he was able to do that by hitting a triple. Now if you don't see that the 2nd Oakland run was scored WITH the benefit of a hit, and not without, then I can't talk with you anymore because I won't be able to stop myself from using phrases like "dumb as a stump" or "couldn't pour piss out of a boot with directions on the bottom".

Hangar18
04-30-2003, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Are you really that thick-headed? Ok, I'll break it down for you. A player cannot score on a sac fly unless he's on third base, right? So, in determining whether a run scores with or without the benefit of a hit, you have to consider how the runner got to third. So last night, Singleton scored on a sac fly, but he got to the position where he was able to do that by hitting a triple. Now if you don't see that the 2nd Oakland run was scored WITH the benefit of a hit, and not without, then I can't talk with you anymore because I won't be able to stop myself from using phrases like "dumb as a stump" or "couldn't pour piss out of a boot with directions on the bottom".

easy kilroy, I didnt call you names now. You KEEP FOCUSING on the rbi-triple. FIne. he got a run in. BUT if he doesnt SCORE, thats not a run now is it? if he stays at 3rd and DOESNT SCORE, THATS NOT A MFR'd RUN RIGHT? lets agree with this first before we move on OK?

IF SINGLETON STAYS AT 3rd, and everyone else after him makes outs that do not allow him to score...ITS NOT MFR'd RIGHT?
im waiting for your response Kilroy

joecrede
04-30-2003, 11:51 AM
No run has ever been manufactured with the "help" of a triple.

Hangar18
04-30-2003, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
No run has ever been manufactured with the "help" of a triple.

what im trying to say, is if he hits a Triple, but noone can get the guy to score, thats one thing. guy hits a Triple, but next guy doubles him in...thats not MFr'ing a run.
Im saying if the guy makes a "useful" out, and gets that run in anyway possible, thats Manufacturing a Run. Kilroy has a problem with semantics and is taking this Personal.

Kilroy, if you want to have different definition of Manufacturing a Run, go for it. but when discussing a point with someone, you dont have to get personal. I take that personally and get a little bothered by that and try my best not to let it escalate into something else, esp since you have no idea who I am or whatever. Your a sox fan, thats a plus. if you disagree thats great too. but dont call me names....

Kilroy
04-30-2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
easy kilroy, I didnt call you names now. You KEEP FOCUSING on the rbi-triple. FIne. he got a run in. BUT if he doesnt SCORE, thats not a run now is it? if he stays at 3rd and DOESNT SCORE, THATS NOT A MFR'd RUN RIGHT? lets agree with this first before we move on OK?

IF SINGLETON STAYS AT 3rd, and everyone else after him makes outs that do not allow him to score...ITS NOT MFR'd RIGHT?
im waiting for your response Kilroy

I tried to make sure that I didn't direct those phrases right at you, but if that didn't happen, I apologize. I don't want to be hurling insults.

That aside, I am not focusing on the first OAK run which scored on Singleton's triple. I am focusing on the 2nd OAK run which was Singleton scoring, after his triple, on a sac fly. You can't say that run was scored w/out the benefit of a hit when the runner scoring on the sac fly (Singleton) hit a triple to get to 3rd.

Scoring w/out the benefit of a hit would be something like --> Walk --> steal 2nd ---> wild pitch runner to 3rd --> sac fly.

As to whether its manufactured or not, like I said before, manufacturing a run has more to do with how a runner gets into scoring position than what plates him. Typically, a runner scoring after tripling is not a MFR'd run. Scoring after a stolen base and a sac bunt is MFR'd because of what the run is made up of. The pieces are put together to make the run, hence it is MFR'd. If you want to call that run MFR'd you may as well call all of them MFR'd.

Put a double together with a single, MFR'd run. Single + triple = MFR'd run. Walk + Homer = MFR'd run w/ the walk scoring w/out the benefit of a hit.

Whatever.

Hangar18
04-30-2003, 01:53 PM
Kilroy, thanks for pointing that out, I appreciate it. Maybe MFR'ing a run should be in How the runner Got into scoring position in the first place? Probably. but Id like to think that if the guy is in scoring position, and the batter does something Other than Getting an Actual Hit, to score the guy, should somehow be considered MFR'ing it also. I do admit, a run scored this way is Stretching the Definition, but could be just the same.