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jeremyb1
04-24-2003, 10:12 PM
is that the three pitchers that are struggling the most in the pen are the three we signed this offseason, the three most exierienced members of the pen, and the three guys in the pen making the most money. so far white, gordon, and koch have accounted for 4 of our 10 losses. that's almost half of our losses. its still early and things should shape up or kw needs to make changes but this is becoming unsettling...

joecrede
04-24-2003, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
is that the three pitchers that are struggling the most in the pen are the three we signed this offseason, the three most exierienced members of the pen, and the three guys in the pen making the most money. so far white, gordon, and koch have accounted for 4 of our 10 losses. that's almost half of our losses. its still early and things should shape up or kw needs to make changes but this is becoming unsettling...

I like White, but I don't think he should be coming in in the 7th with a 2-run lead unless he's being used as a last resort due to an overworked pen. The way Gordon has been going the 7th/8th innings should be split between Glover and Marte. Manuel needs to evaluate the current roles of the relievers leading up to Koch ASAP or he risks losing his job.

jeremyb1
04-24-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I like White, but I don't think he should be coming in in the 7th with a 2-run lead unless he's being used as a last resort due to an overworked pen. The way Gordon has been going the 7th/8th innings should be split between Glover and Marte. Manuel needs to evaluate the current roles of the relievers leading up to Koch ASAP or he risks losing his job.

i agree he should use glover in more important situations but that still doesn't fix all of our problems. he's not going to be able to use marte, glover, and koch (who's hasn't been a sure thing) every time we're in a close game.

SoxxoS
04-24-2003, 11:31 PM
All I know is, these guys were available and 30+teams passed on them. And we all know how important bullpen depth is.

Ginter should be called up immediately, and they need to release one of the two. Swallow your pride, KW, b/c they are going to hurt this team more than help. You can keep one around for mop up duty, but you got to release one. This is rediculous.

Lip Man 1
04-25-2003, 01:01 AM
With respect a few points if I may:

1. With the Sox limited budget who exactly did you want they to get (either by free agency or trade?) They couldn't even afford Juan Acevedo because the Yankees guaranteed him one million if he made the club.

2. According to the Tribune, White told Don Cooper BEFORE the game he had a bad upset stomach and wasn't feeling well. Jerry Manuel used him anyway.

3. Suppose the Sox didn't sign these guys and went with the "kids" or signed some other guys, who knows what could have happened? They could be better, and they could be worse. For example Rick Helling just threw eight shutout innings in his last start. Jeff Suppan was 3-0 with three earned runs in his first three starts. Could the Sox have signed them, yes. Would they have the same results? Who knows?

For once I can't fault the Sox. They at least tried. Now you can fault WHO they went after but unless the purse strings are finally opened from Uncle Jerry's vault the Sox will ALWAYS be shopping for "blue light K-Mart specials."

I don't feel as bad I guess as some because the pessamists in me didn't like the way this team was constructed. I pegged the Sox for 2nd place with 88 wins in the WSI poll. Under the financial restraints I thought this was "as good as it gets" for these guys.

I can't even find out who to blame. EVERYBODY has looked bad at times. Jon Garland, the bullpen, the core hitters. It's just not there and I don't know if it will be before it's time to start another "fire sale."

If you want to do anything can Manager Gandhi. It may be unfair but clearly things aren't working and it's easier to fire a manager then 25 players.

Lip

MHOUSE
04-25-2003, 01:01 AM
Wunsch has yet to surrender a hit or a run and Glover has an ERA under 1. Use them when it's a 2-run game! Marte has been iffy, but he'll come around. Koch will be ok I think, but Gordon has to get it figured out. I like Flash but he's just a liability right now. Here's my take:

Long relief/Mop-up White-Sanders
Middle relief/clutch Wunsch-Glover
Set-up Marte
Closer Koch

Let Flash eat some unimportant innings in blow-outs until he gets his ERA down and some confidence back. Then work him into a defined role. I think Ginter would be good to have up but then you'd have to cut White or Gordon and I still think they can contribute in the long run.

baggio202
04-25-2003, 01:11 AM
lip its funny you bring that up..i was gonna start a post and ask if anyone heard if rick white was injured...when jerry came out white looked at him and you read his lips (no pun ) very clearly..he said "take me out"..first thing i ithough of was oh **** , he hurt his arm...glad it was only a stomach ache..


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lip Man 1
2. According to the Tribune, White told Don Cooper BEFORE the game he had a bad upset stomach and wasn't feeling well. Jerry Manuel used him anyway.

MHOUSE
04-25-2003, 01:17 AM
That's upsetting (no pun intended!) that Manuel would play him even though he told Coop that he had an upset stomach. Listen to your players and get a clue buddy! Maybe he thought if Wells could pitch a no-hitter half drunk then White would do as well with a bad stomach.

DonkeyKongerko
04-25-2003, 01:47 AM
Does anyone else think Antonio Osuna was more important than we realized?

Lip Man 1
04-25-2003, 02:17 AM
Do you mean the Osuna whom the Yankees just placed on the DL today?

Lip

bc2k
04-25-2003, 02:29 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Do you mean the Osuna whom the Yankees just placed on the DL today?

Lip

I think he was talking about the pitcher with a groin injury and a 1.59 era.

SoxxoS
04-25-2003, 05:01 AM
I think Osuna with a torn groin and torn labrum is better than Flash Gordon.

Seriously, you know who was important to the pen? Sean Lowe. JM loved to use him, but the thing is, he was good when he pitched for us, so it was no big deal. Now, he loves to use Flash and White, and they aren't very good.

hold2dibber
04-25-2003, 07:55 AM
Last night's loss sucked, and there is nothing worse, as a baseball fan, than watching your bullpen blow a game (or 4, as the Sox bullpen has already this year). But it's absurd to be ranting for the Sox to cut these guys (White and Gordon) loose because of a few bad performances. Should the Braves have released Maddux after his first three (bad) starts? Should the Red Sox release Dereck Lowe and his above-6.00 ERA? Come on. Gordon has been very good (better than Osuna, when healthy) the last few years. Outside of Coors field, White has been very good the last few years. Those results mean a lot more to me than a few bad outings.

Also, as Lip rightly points out, Manuel used White despite the fact that White disclosed (according to the Trib) that he didn't feel well and could use a night off. How friggin' stupid do you have to be to use someone in those circumstances? If not for Manuel's moronic decision to play White despite his disclosure, and the whole game changes. I blame Manuel, not White, for that.

Sad
04-25-2003, 08:22 AM
what is it with Manuel and Tom Gordon?!
does he have a love affair with this guy or what?!
:angry:
he insists on using him just about every time the game is on the line and, once again, we get crapped

I seen Gordon coming out yesterday and said to myself:
"Its Over"

well... you know...
I bring out Rick White and let him get a few pitches in
then... you know...
I make the call for Flash cus by then we're probably in hot water and the winning run is at the plate
then Ill say something about- it just wasnt their day...


then he brings out Marte after the fact...
seems to me Marte would've been the first guy you'd get in that situation

bullheadedsonofa$%#@! :angry:
make a note for next time!

but he won't...

DC Sox Fan
04-25-2003, 09:52 AM
Wunsch has yet to surrender a hit or a run and Glover has an ERA under 1. Use them when it's a 2-run game

BINGO!

I know he wasn't in there long but it was OBVIOUS that Kelly was bringing some good stuff last night. I really don't know why JO (oops I mean JM) didn't leave him in!!!

there is nothing worse, as a baseball fan, than watching your bullpen blow a game

Try watching your bullpen blow a lead when you're surrounded by 23000+ screaming Orioles fans and watching JO's face not change expression once. I had a great view of the dugout from where I sat and there was a total lack of emotion/apparent interest ALL night :(

LuvSox
04-25-2003, 10:15 AM
I feel for ya DC, you wait all that time to see the Sox and ol' Jerry blows it. Good thing you don't live here. You don't want to see this crap more often. :D:

siugrad25
04-25-2003, 11:12 AM
Can anybody answer me why, when we're winning, JM would throw in White when according to the Cubune he didn't feel well.

Quote:
"I told him I could use a day [off]," White said. "But being a
competitor, I'm not going to say: 'I have an upset stomach, I'm not going to pitch.' He said, 'We'll probably get you one, but be ready just in case.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-030424soxgamer,1,4054324.story?coll=cs%2Dhome%2Dhe adlines

Mr. White is no MJ and I don't have a problem with him pitching in another situation, but with other guys on the bench and so on, was he the best person to have in the game? We really needed that game.

maurice
04-25-2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
3. Suppose the Sox didn't sign these guys and went with the "kids" or signed some other guys, who knows what could have happened? They could be better, and they could be worse. For example Rick Helling just threw eight shutout innings in his last start. Jeff Suppan was 3-0 with three earned runs in his first three starts. Could the Sox have signed them, yes. Would they have the same results? Who knows?

It's funny you should mention this. As jeremy pointed out, three of our four worst pitchers so far are vets the Sox picked up in the off-season: White (4.82 ERA), Gordon (6.75), and Koch (8.10). It's difficult to believe that, say, Foulke, Sanders, and Almonte would have done worse so far. In fact, all of the kids and holdovers on the Sox staff (with the notable excepton of Garland) have pitched well this season: Wunsch (0.00 ERA), Sanders (0.00), Glover (0.87), Marte (3.24), Buehrle (3.27), and Stewart (3.68).

I don't mean to come down on KW (though I can't stand JM). The team's record so far is consistent with the pre-season predictions of most posters here, and the Sox look like they'll remain contenders. Koch should be fine. Daubach, Gordon, and White don't need to be great for the Sox to win 90 games.

Suppan is looking good so far -- downright Loiaz-ish. However, the shutout against TB is Helling's only real good outing this year. Coming into that game, he had a 6.00 ERA in his first three starts, all against against TB and the Toons, and with TB scoring 7 runs off of him in the first start. He'll probably finish under .500 with his ERA in the usual 4.50 - 5.00 range.

You have to be happy with the superior work Loaiza and Stewart have provided thus far in the 4/5 slot Helling would have filled. If they can both keep their ERAs under 4.00, KW can concentrate on (1) filling the final rotation spot with a quality starter, if Garland, Wright, and Rauch all fail; and (2) praying the Sox bats warm up with the weather (a pretty safe bet).

Let's go Sox. Kick the cream outa them twinkies. :gulp: