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dllrbll7
04-24-2003, 08:09 PM
The sox limited lower deck acces to only people with tickets for all the games, not just the sold out games.
http://whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_press_release.jsp?ymd=20030424&content_id=288341&vkey=pr_cws&fext=.jsp

T Dog
04-24-2003, 10:25 PM
I have no problem with this. The times I've bought tickets for the upper deck, I've had good times watching the games from the upper deck. I am irritated when I have good seats and find, after getting a brat between innings, an upper deck ticket holder in my seat. Upper Deck admission doesn't guarantee you to sit anywhere you want.

TornLabrum
04-24-2003, 10:28 PM
The thing I don't care for is that the upper deck fans can't take advantage of the new fan deck, etc. now. What they need to do is just check tickets when these fans try to move down the aisles. If they don't have a ticket for that section, they get sent back. Fans sure as heck aren't going to be able to run onto the field from the concourse.

FanOf14
04-24-2003, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
The thing I don't care for is that the upper deck fans can't take advantage of the new fan deck, etc. now. What they need to do is just check tickets when these fans try to move down the aisles. If they don't have a ticket for that section, they get sent back. Fans sure as heck aren't going to be able to run onto the field from the concourse.

My feelings exactly. If I buy tickets for the upper deck, I sit there the entire game, but I would like to stroll around and see the new sites. It sucks getting punished (I know, this is for safety and such, but it still sucks) for someone else's inability to act like a mature adult.

T Dog
04-24-2003, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
The thing I don't care for is that the upper deck fans can't take advantage of the new fan deck, etc. now

The upper deck seats are the cheap seats. It isn't like there aren't any lower deck seats available for people who want to enjoy concourse amenities.

The only problem I would have is visiting with friends. I've gone to the upper deck to do that a couple of times, even though I had 100-level tickets.

TornLabrum
04-24-2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by T Dog
The upper deck seats are the cheap seats. It isn't like there aren't any lower deck seats available for people who want to enjoy concourse amenities.

The only problem I would have is visiting with friends. I've gone to the upper deck to do that a couple of times, even though I had 100-level tickets.

As I mentioned before, fans on the concourse shouldn't pose any threat to what's going on on the field as long as they are kept on the concourse. This implies that the ushers do their jobs.

I don't think there is any problem with someone with a 100 level ticket going up to the 500 level.

My son, using a friend's season ticket the other night, got into a chat on the 300 level with someone who had a 500 level ticket. As to how he got there, your guess is as good as mine.

anewman35
04-24-2003, 11:52 PM
Honestly, this pisses me off to no end. I shouldn't have to pay upwards of $20 just to be able to walk around the lower concourse. I can't think of another move the Sox have ever made that's upset me so much.

I have tickets to one of the Cubs games, and I'll still use them. Beyond that, though, I think my plans of going to a few games a month during the summer have now changed. It's complete and utter bull**** to screw over thousands of paying fans every game because of the actions of a few idiots. I'm not going to give the team money just to be treated like a third class citizen for no good reason.

Adam :angry: :angry: :angry:

ShoelessFred
04-24-2003, 11:59 PM
wait wait wait!!! does this mean that i can't go down to the bullpen bar??? *** jerry???

dllrbll7
04-25-2003, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by ShoelessFred
wait wait wait!!! does this mean that i can't go down to the bullpen bar??? *** jerry???

Nah the Bullpen bars is completely different i believe. You have to pay extra to get into there i believe and how they usually keep the upper deck people from the lower deck is by having ushers checking tickets at the entrances to the lower deck right off of the ramps. They usually do this for all the cubs games and for opening day.

jcw218
04-25-2003, 01:32 AM
There is no additional cost to get into the bullpen bar. The extra cost is for the patio seats that are located in the bullpen bar. What the access to the bullpen bar is going to be with the new ticket policy is anyone's guess.

steff
04-25-2003, 10:31 AM
No change to the bullpen bar. Any ticket into the park gets you into the bar - no additional charg unless you want to sit on the patio ($10).

As for the restriction, it's about time. Buy a ticket where you want to sit. If you want to walk around the bowl, buy a ticket there. You people complaining act like the bowl is sold out every game. There's plenty of outfield seats avaliable. Buy one of them if you want to be down there.

Bobby Thigpen
04-25-2003, 10:41 AM
I totally agree with the Sox on making this decision. It needed to be done. I too hate it when I buy great seats close to the field and about the third or fourth inning some drunk idiot comes down and proceeds to annoy me and everyone around me for the rest of the game. Although I have also enjoyed the Comiskey Upgrade many times before, I totally understand why this is being done now. If you want to end the idiots getting on the field, you have to try to end the idiots getting access to the field.

But on the other hand I think it does suck that you can't even get on the concourse with upperdeck tickets. Whenever I go to a game I like to get there when the gates open so I can just kind of walk around the park and check out stuff. Does this rule mean that if I have a UD ticket that I can't even be on the concourse 1 /12 hours before the game. If that is the case then that really sucks.

Hangar18
04-25-2003, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by steff3603
No change to the bullpen bar. Any ticket into the park gets you into the bar - no additional charg unless you want to sit on the patio ($10).

As for the restriction, it's about time. Buy a ticket where you want to sit. If you want to walk around the bowl, buy a ticket there. You people complaining act like the bowl is sold out every game. There's plenty of outfield seats avaliable. Buy one of them if you want to be down there.

Steff, you know that my season tickets are 2nd row behind the Sox BP. that means I wont be able to visit you now that the Sox are heavy handed with ticket checking. :(

Hangar18
04-25-2003, 10:45 AM
Checking my ticket isnt going to stop me from getting on the Field.
I will simply buy a lower deck seat somewhere, anywhere, and then Run on The Field When Im Good and Ready. Sox are taking advantage of the Isolated situation by making sure everyone pays $$ now. Oh well.

anewman35
04-25-2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by steff3603

As for the restriction, it's about time. Buy a ticket where you want to sit. If you want to walk around the bowl, buy a ticket there. You people complaining act like the bowl is sold out every game. There's plenty of outfield seats avaliable. Buy one of them if you want to be down there.

Ok, I can't justify people sitting where they shouldn't. But I don't want to do that, I just want to have the right to walk around the lower concourse. Maybe I want to go to the Hall of Fame, or the Fan Deck, or the Shower, or whatever. How does me walking around the concourse adversely affect you? The team has already had a class system going on (only letting certian people on the Club level, for example), but this is really just taking it too far. I think it's undenyable that the nicest place to take a walk or just stand outside and relax is the lower concourse, and this move really gets me, because they could accomplish the same thing with more secutiry in the aisles.

So, what happens when somebody with bleacher tickers runs on the field? Will they segragate those fans from the rest of the lower deck?

Anyway, the Sox have every right to do this, it's their park. Likewise, I have every right to not spend a cent there until they get rid of this policy (and I plan to write a letter to the team telling them this).

Bobby Thigpen
04-25-2003, 10:48 AM
I think the Sox reasoning here is that probably the majority of the idiots that run on the field have UD tickets and then take the Upgrade. They probably figure that someone who is serious enough to plunk down 29 bucks to sit close to the field isn't going to run out on it.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-25-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
As I mentioned before, fans on the concourse shouldn't pose any threat to what's going on on the field as long as they are kept on the concourse. This implies that the ushers do their jobs.

I don't think there is any problem with someone with a 100 level ticket going up to the 500 level.

My son, using a friend's season ticket the other night, got into a chat on the 300 level with someone who had a 500 level ticket. As to how he got there, your guess is as good as mine.

As a lower deck ticketholder, are you prepared for the hassle of showing your ticket stub to the usher everytime you go up or down the aisle from the concourse? Not everyone who sits in the lower bowl is a season ticketholder and its very doubtful the ushers can possibly remember several hundred faces of legitimate ticketholders they've previously checked each game.

Sorry, but that's a hassle for the WRONG people--namely the lower bowl ticketholders. It's expensive, too. Instead of checking tickets at six gate locations, you're expecting tickets to be checked across 100+ aisle locations. And all of this simply so fans who didn't buy lower bowl seats -- even though they were available for sale -- can wander around the main concourse. Sorry, I ain't buying it.

The solution has always been to make the upper deck concourse an attraction of its own accord--something the Sox have done marvelously for the lower bowl.

Eliminating the Comiskey Upgrade is long overdue. So too, is fixing the upper deck.

Here's the BEST solution of all: sell enough seats to fill the lower bowl. Then the problem eliminates itself. You can't do it without selling more multi-game packages. Rob Gallas, king of the single-game promotion nights, hasn't a clue how to do it.

anewman35
04-25-2003, 10:52 AM
So, now that upper deck tickets have access to fewer of the "dramatic, fan-focused renovations and improvements", don't you think they should drop the price? Oh, wait, that would cost the team money, nevermind.

Hangar18
04-25-2003, 11:21 AM
As I said before, All I have to do now is Simply buy a Lower Deck Ticket, and Run On The Field Whenever Im Good and Ready.

anewman35
04-25-2003, 11:33 AM
Please do. I want them to see how stupid this policy is.

So, is it considered false advertising for the Sox to say this about the fan deck? "Free for all fans and available on a first-come, first-served basis." Shouldn't that say "Free for all fans that can afford to spend $22 a ticket"?

fado
04-25-2003, 12:01 PM
Does anyone remember the first year of the Cell? If you had UD tix you weren't allowed on the first level. In fact, if you had lower deck tix that weren't in the bleachers, you weren't allowed in the bleachers. Once attendance dropped the Comiskey upgrade started.

I've had lower deck tix for the past eight years and it always amazes me how many people are sitting in my seats that shouldn't be there. And they are holding 500 level seats. I don't get mad about it, but I try and figure out what the usher's job is at the top of my row. I hate to admit it, but at the urinal on the North side, if you have Field box seats, you're ticket will be checked every time you try to go down to your seats. By little old ladies that won't take any crap. I know that won't stop every one but it is a start.

As much as I think taking away the concourse from anyone who doesn't have 100 level tix sucks, I think that this is something that will help stop the morons. I think that the thinking behind this is that most of the people that sit on the lower deck are season ticket holders and that they wouldn't run out on the field because they know they will lose their tix.

Just my opinion.

steff
04-25-2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Please do. I want them to see how stupid this policy is.

So, is it considered false advertising for the Sox to say this about the fan deck? "Free for all fans and available on a first-come, first-served basis." Shouldn't that say "Free for all fans that can afford to spend $22 a ticket"?

Oh geezus. Then go on Monday or Tuesday when it's $11.

Good grief. If it's not the upper deck yer bitchin about it's something else...

steff
04-25-2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
So, now that upper deck tickets have access to fewer of the "dramatic, fan-focused renovations and improvements", don't you think they should drop the price? Oh, wait, that would cost the team money, nevermind.



The Sox are close to, if not, the cheapest team to see play.

God.. what would you whiners do if you were Boston, Yankee, or GASP.... Cub fans and had to pay those prices?!?!

Boo hoo. :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

steff
04-25-2003, 01:16 PM
Hey anewman35.. where are you from anyway..? Do you actually attend games at Comiskey..? You don't have a location listed and I'm interested in seeing as how you are so adament about this new policy, how it will effect you and the amount of games you attend.

SaltyPretzel
04-25-2003, 01:20 PM
They can call the upper deck at The Cell "Solitary Confinement".

WhiteSoxWinner
04-25-2003, 01:27 PM
I've been reading this post, and a lot of people are saying how they hate the Upgraders coming down and how they become obnoxious and loud, but I have to be honest, I have been getting in a on season ticket package for the last three years, and I have not once been bothered by a Upgrader. I've seen people move down, but they don't cause any trouble. I've been bothered more often by the guys with the tickets than without.

Heck, when I take the upgrade for other randon games I attend, you act like you BELONG there by not making an @ss of yourself. Keep it calm and reasonable, and security doesn't bother you. If the season ticket holders are being bothered, I suggest you go tell security, and they'll handle it. I think most Upgraders are reasonable people, and the fact that four yahoos can ruin it for everyone really sucks.

I'm with Hangar, I think the Sox are taking advantage of the situation to squeeze more money from the fans.

WhiteSoxWinner
04-25-2003, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by SaltyPretzel
They can call the upper deck at The Cell "Solitary Confinement".

Or the Asylum, as it appears that that is where they are trying to keep the loonies.

anewman35
04-25-2003, 01:31 PM
I'm from Arlington Heights. I've been to two games already, and I was planning on going to about 2 a month. It's not so much that I can't afford the cost, it's the principal of the thing.

Ticket prices have kept going up, and, ok, I dealt with it. They started restricting people to their deck for sellouts, and I didn't like it, but I saw their reasoning. Parking is up to $15 dollars now, ok. The team (and MLB) used September 11th to justify pointless "security measures" that had the side effect of letting them sell more food, and I was pissed, but I mostly blamed MLB for it. But this? This is the last straw for me. I love the team, and I love going to games, but to me it's crazy to go spend $25 (or more) (when the cost of tickets, transportation, and food are combined) and get treated like a potential criminal, just because I'm trying to save a little money. So, I'm not going to. I'll spend my money on things that don't imply that I have no common sense.

steff
04-25-2003, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
I've been reading this post, and a lot of people are saying how they hate the Upgraders coming down and how they become obnoxious and loud, but I have to be honest, I have been getting in a on season ticket package for the last three years, and I have not once been bothered by a Upgrader. I've seen people move down, but they don't cause any trouble. I've been bothered more often by the guys with the tickets than without.

Heck, when I take the upgrade for other randon games I attend, you act like you BELONG there by not making an @ss of yourself. Keep it calm and reasonable, and security doesn't bother you. If the season ticket holders are being bothered, I suggest you go tell security, and they'll handle it. I think most Upgraders are reasonable people, and the fact that four yahoos can ruin it for everyone really sucks.

I'm with Hangar, I think the Sox are taking advantage of the situation to squeeze more money from the fans.


I've never been "bothered". And if there is a problem, I would tell security.

Now how is it taking advantage of situation? They are not stopping the upgrade. They are simply saying that in order to be in the lower bowl you must have a ticket there. Then guess what.. buy a ticket there. If you have an UD ticket, go get the upgrade if you want to sit down there. Where's the taking advantage?

As for you Hangar.. you're thisclose to getting an arse kicking tonight! :angry:

Sad
04-25-2003, 01:31 PM
I dont really have a problem with this either, but
the food on the lower level is much better :smile:

which brings up the question:

why is there only 1 Steak Pita stand?
:?:
the only one I know of is / was down the 1B line in right field

is it still there?
are there others?


these are things I think about at night when I can't sleep


mmmmmmmmmmmmSteakPitasGAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

steff
04-25-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
I'm from Arlington Heights. I've been to two games already, and I was planning on going to about 2 a month. It's not so much that I can't afford the cost, it's the principal of the thing.

Ticket prices have kept going up, and, ok, I dealt with it. They started restricting people to their deck for sellouts, and I didn't like it, but I saw their reasoning. Parking is up to $15 dollars now, ok. The team (and MLB) used September 11th to justify pointless "security measures" that had the side effect of letting them sell more food, and I was pissed, but I mostly blamed MLB for it. But this? This is the last straw for me. I love the team, and I love going to games, but to me it's crazy to go spend $25 (or more) (when the cost of tickets, transportation, and food are combined) and get treated like a potential criminal, just because I'm trying to save a little money. So, I'm not going to. I'll spend my money on things that don't imply that I have no common sense.


That's really too bad you feel that way. Perception is reality I suppose. Our season seats are right by the bar. Perhaps the most volatile area in the park and we have no issues (well.. they have issues with me drinking too much but that's another story :D: )
I guess I'm confused by the anger towards the Sox on this one. I've been to almost ever AL park and several NL parks and there are quite a few you can't go "roaming" at. I don't see it as a big deal. But I agree with paying for the seat you are going to be sitting in as well..

anewman35
04-25-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by steff3603

Now how is it taking advantage of situation? They are not stopping the upgrade. They are simply saying that in order to be in the lower bowl you must have a ticket there. Then guess what.. buy a ticket there. If you have an UD ticket, go get the upgrade if you want to sit down there. Where's the taking advantage?


If you want to sit in the lower deck and spend the money for it, great. But what if you're perfectly happy to sit in the upper deck, you just like to get to the park early and check out the lower concourse before the game? Your only way to do that now would be to spend some extra money for a lower deck ticket. That's how the Sox are taking advantage.

voodoochile
04-25-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
If you want to sit in the lower deck and spend the money for it, great. But what if you're perfectly happy to sit in the upper deck, you just like to get to the park early and check out the lower concourse before the game? Your only way to do that now would be to spend some extra money for a lower deck ticket. That's how the Sox are taking advantage.

Well, all the talk of removing the AS game from them might affect their thinking. They at least have to LOOK like they are trying to do something. Maybe this is shortsighted and reactionary, but what choices do they have?

PaleHoseGeorge
04-25-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
....I think the Sox are taking advantage of the situation to squeeze more money from the fans.

I would agree with you except the plain facts of recent history suggest just the opposite is true.

As someone else pointed out, when New Comiskey first opened the Sox DID keep upper-deckers off the main concourse. In 1991 they also kept bleacher ticketholders confined to the outfield, too. Even before the Ligues, Dybas, and assorted other upper-deck urchins began giving the Sox the black eye of negative national publicity, the Sox were keeping upper deckers off the main concourse when the stadium was nearly soldout.

Here's the fact: The White Sox have used restrictions on stadium access as a form of crowd control for ALL THIRTEEN SEASONS that NCP/USCF has been opened. It's a fact, too, that the Ligues, Dybas, and Skutnicks were ALL carrying upper deck tickets. The costs of repeated episodes of this nonsense is HURTING the bottom line for the Chicago White Sox. They can't risk letting this continue indefinitely.

The Sox are taking advantage of the fans? LOL! Obviously just the opposite is true.

:whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

anewman35
04-25-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by steff3603

I guess I'm confused by the anger towards the Sox on this one. I've been to almost ever AL park and several NL parks and there are quite a few you can't go "roaming" at. I don't see it as a big deal.

It just seems to me like a lot of you are season ticket holders who don't see it as a big deal. To me, a person who has historically gone to a couple games a year, it's a huge deal. Before every game, we'd always get there an hour or an hour and a half early, and walk around the lower deck, checking out the view from all the different angles, checking out all the attractions, it was fun. Then, when the game was about to start, we'd go up to our seats, almost always in the upper deck (people who can afford season tickets might not realize this, but it's very expensive to take a family to a baseball game, so lots of people get the cheapest tickets they can). The upper deck is nicer now, sure, but it still strikes me as very rude to tell fans that they are stuck up there, instead of being able to walk around in the sun downstairs.

As for other parks, I admittedly haven't been to many (sad as it is, I actually have only been to the 3 Chicago parks). However, just because other stadiums do it doesn't make it right. When you buy a ticket, you are buying that seat, but to me you are also buying the right to use the ballpark's attractions. If I can't, I feel my ticket has been devalued to the point where it's no longer worth what I'm paying.

steff
04-25-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
If you want to sit in the lower deck and spend the money for it, great. But what if you're perfectly happy to sit in the upper deck, you just like to get to the park early and check out the lower concourse before the game? Your only way to do that now would be to spend some extra money for a lower deck ticket. That's how the Sox are taking advantage.


Have you tried this yet..? Next time you're at the park and you have an UD ticket and just want to go "walk around" and you are denied.. then come back and tell that story. I don't care what the release says. I'm willing to bet that access to walk around will not be denied. But as usual.. it's no fun unless the sky is falling around here.

WhiteSoxWinner
04-25-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
Now how is it taking advantage of situation? They are not stopping the upgrade. They are simply saying that in order to be in the lower bowl you must have a ticket there. Then guess what.. buy a ticket there. If you have an UD ticket, go get the upgrade if you want to sit down there. Where's the taking advantage?

It is taking advantage by ending the Upgrade. The Upgrade is not the problem. It is a few yahoos with warped minds that are running on the field that are the problem. The Upgrade has been going on forever, but there have been few incidents in the past. Now all of the sudden it is a great evil? Everyone taking an upgrade is a) from the upper deck, and b) a loony who is going to run on the field?

Security doesn't have a problem with the upgrade as long as you are reasonable. Heck, the night of the Gamboa incident, me and a few friends took an upgrade to the fifth row third base side. Security came and told us they didn't mind if we moved into a section that was half empty, but not to get greedy. That is fair enough.

Bottom line, the answer is to increase the punishment for those who do run onto the field. Hopefully, it will make people think twice or give them something to think about for the rest of their life when they have to have a background check done and this shows up. Yeah, it'll be real funny when they are trying to get a job and have to explain the 30 day jail sentence to a prospective employer.

steff
04-25-2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
It just seems to me like a lot of you are season ticket holders who don't see it as a big deal. To me, a person who has historically gone to a couple games a year, it's a huge deal. Before every game, we'd always get there an hour or an hour and a half early, and walk around the lower deck, checking out the view from all the different angles, checking out all the attractions, it was fun. Then, when the game was about to start, we'd go up to our seats, almost always in the upper deck (people who can afford season tickets might not realize this, but it's very expensive to take a family to a baseball game, so lots of people get the cheapest tickets they can). The upper deck is nicer now, sure, but it still strikes me as very rude to tell fans that they are stuck up there, instead of being able to walk around in the sun downstairs.

As for other parks, I admittedly haven't been to many (sad as it is, I actually have only been to the 3 Chicago parks). However, just because other stadiums do it doesn't make it right. When you buy a ticket, you are buying that seat, but to me you are also buying the right to use the ballpark's attractions. If I can't, I feel my ticket has been devalued to the point where it's no longer worth what I'm paying.



You buy an UD ticket - you get the UD attractions.
You buy a LD ticket - you get the LD attractions.

:D:

Rocky Soprano
04-25-2003, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Sad
I dont really have a problem with this either, but
the food on the lower level is much better :smile:

which brings up the question:

why is there only 1 Steak Pita stand?
:?:
the only one I know of is / was down the 1B line in right field

is it still there?
are there others?


these are things I think about at night when I can't sleep


mmmmmmmmmmmmSteakPitasGAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


LOL!

Yup they are still there. Almost reaching the foul pole in right field. I had one like two weeks ago.

They are yummy with a :gulp:

Hangar18
04-25-2003, 02:18 PM
Enforcing this new "rule" will Not Stop people from running on the field. And the 30day mandatory sentence will Never Fly, because the punishment will not fit the crime. Unlawful discharge of Weapons, Grand Theft Auto are some of the crimes that dont have 30 day mandatory sentences. If I want to Run The Field, all I will Do is Buy a Lower Deck Ticket, and Run When Im Good And Ready. The only way to Stop people on the Field 100% is to Close the games from the public. Only the media are allowed in the parks.

Hangar18
04-25-2003, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by steff3603

As for you Hangar.. you're thisclose to getting an arse kicking tonight! :angry:

Excellent! I would totally let you too :)

fado
04-25-2003, 02:29 PM
I am sorry to those that are going to be stuck on the UD due to a few morons. They, not LD season ticket holders, not the White Sox, not even JR, did this to you.

I also don't like the fact that I'm being crucified because I'm a season ticket holder on the LD. I save every year to buy my seats and I know how expensive it is to go to a game. If you want to sit on the LD go on half price night where LD tix are cheaper. But I have a feeling that you're already going on half price night and using the Comiskey upgrade to your advantage. Which is fine, but I guess you're going to have to rethink your purchasing habits.

We lived through 91 and 92 when the Sox were restricting access and I think will live through it again. The only bad thing is that on TV the park looks extremely empty.

Boozer
04-25-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
LOL!

Yup they are still there. Almost reaching the foul pole in right field. I had one like two weeks ago.

They are yummy with a :gulp:

When's the last time you had a beer Rocky? :o:

I told you the Steak Pitas Rocked... :D:


As for the UD Policy, I don't like that you can't check out the whole park if you have a UD ticket. But I do realize why they are doing it & stand by the decision. I don't ever sit up there anyways.

What I don't understand is that the UD Box & Reserve are $6 difference! That doesn't make sense to me.

Rocky Soprano
04-25-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Boozer
When's the last time you had a beer Rocky? :o:

I told you the Steak Pitas Rocked... :D:


As for the UD Policy, I don't like that you can't check out the whole park if you have a UD ticket. But I do realize why they are doing it & stand by the decision. I don't ever sit up there anyways.

What I don't understand is that the UD Box & Reserve are $6 difference! That doesn't make sense to me.


WOW, its about time I see you on here! :D:

CLR01
04-25-2003, 02:59 PM
:whiner: :whiner: :whiner: My god there is a lot of crying going on in this thread.

Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
I'm with Hangar, I think the Sox are taking advantage of the situation to squeeze more money from the fans.

What by trying to get the fans to pay the ticket price for the seat they are sitting in? They are not closing off the upper deck, you can still buy your ticket there. You just have to use your seat.

Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner


It is taking advantage by ending the Upgrade. The Upgrade is not the problem. It is a few yahoos with warped minds that are running on the field that are the problem. The Upgrade has been going on forever, but there have been few incidents in the past. Now all of the sudden it is a great evil? Everyone taking an upgrade is a) from the upper deck, and b) a loony who is going to run on the field?



Yeah the fact that it has been going on forever makes it right.


I have to remember this whole upgrade thing next time i go into the chevrolet dealership. Ill buy your basic stripped down Cavalier Coupe and then when no one is looking ill swipe the keys to a Z06 that is just sitting on the lot doing nothing.

voodoochile
04-25-2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by CLR01
I have to remember this whole upgrade thing next time i go into the chevrolet dealership. Ill buy your basic stripped down Cavalier Coupe and then when no one is looking ill swipe the keys to a Z06 that is just sitting on the lot doing nothing.

Okay, this is the most ridiculous analogy in a long time. In fact this whole "the Comiskey upgrade is stealing" line of reasoning is really over the top. If the Chevy dealer turned his back, left the keys to the Z06 lying on the ground and then did nothing to prevent you from taking the car nor ever filed charges THEN the analogy would work, but otherwise it is just plain silly...

Yes, by the letter of the law, it MIGHT be in line with stealing, but in practice it doesn't even compare to actual theft. The Sox aren't losing anything by allowing fans to sit in empty seats in the LD when they have seats for the UD, but maybe they actually are getting a few more fans into the park to spend money and maybe they are generating some good will.

Having said all of that, I don't have a problem with the new policys. If I want to sit in the LD I will buy a seat there from now on. Personally, I like the UD and normally actually sit in my seats unless the ballpark is really empty...

CLR01
04-25-2003, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, this is the most ridiculous analogy in a long time. In fact this whole "the Comiskey upgrade is stealing" line of reasoning is really over the top. If the Chevy dealer turned his back, left the keys to the Z06 lying on the ground and then did nothing to prevent you from taking the car nor ever filed charges THEN the analogy would work, but otherwise it is just plain silly...

Yes, by the letter of the law, it MIGHT be in line with stealing, but in practice it doesn't even compare to actual theft. The Sox aren't losing anything by allowing fans to sit in empty seats in the LD when they have seats for the UD, but maybe they actually are getting a few more fans into the park to spend money and maybe they are generating some good will.

Having said all of that, I don't have a problem with the new policys. If I want to sit in the LD I will buy a seat there from now on. Personally, I like the UD and normally actually sit in my seats unless the ballpark is really empty...


Whether enforced or not, taking something without paying is stealing. The comiskey upgrade is stealing.

voodoochile
04-25-2003, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by CLR01
Whether enforced or not, taking something without paying is stealing. The comiskey upgrade is stealing.

Spoken like the son of a cop...

:)

I think of it as more of a buffet at a party. Most people will not hog the shrimp, but there are some who feel the shrimp is just for them and those who snooze, lose.

voodoochile
04-25-2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Spoken like the son of a cop...

:)

I think of it as more of a buffet at a party. Most people will not hog the shrimp, but there are some who feel the shrimp is just for them and those who snooze, lose.

Whoops, I think it is Czal who is actually Nellies kid...

Nevermind...

T Dog
04-25-2003, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
Oh geezus. Then go on Monday or Tuesday when it's $11.

Good grief. If it's not the upper deck yer bitchin about it's something else...

I've been to seven games this season. I've paid to see six because one game was on a friend's ticket. I've only paid full price for two games. It probably cost me more to drive down from Wisconsin.

This policy shouldn't be a problem.

andytheclown
04-25-2003, 03:23 PM
Being a season ticketholder myself, I feel I should chime in as well.

I wish they had never stopped the restrictions way back when.

Name another venue in Chicago that the upgrade is acceptable?

It doesn't exist. Try it at the United Center for a Bulls or Hawks game.

You can say that it doesn't bother anyone when you buy an UD and wander the lower concourse. I completely disagree. The concessions and bathrooms are still packed because of all the wanderers still drink, eat and tinkle! :gulp:

And besides that, how can anyone complain that the Sox are using a bad situation for financial gain? :?:

The "upgrade" has been allowed the last number of years, not because the Sox care about their fans, but because the security didn't give a sh*t!

You can buy tickets for the lower bowl to just about any game. There are 2 half price nights a week, plus if you can commit to a 7 game package, there is another discount.

People are never satisfied. If you buy a Escort, do not expect it to be a nice as a Lexus. When you fly do not expect coach to be as nice as 1st class. And if a 1st class seat is open, do you think the airline would mind if you upgraded for free?


Money for nothing...

PaleHoseGeorge
04-25-2003, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by andytheclown
Being a season ticketholder myself, I feel I should chime in as well.

I wish they had never stopped the restrictions way back when.

Name another venue in Chicago that the upgrade is acceptable?

It doesn't exist. Try it at the United Center for a Bulls or Hawks game.

You can say that it doesn't bother anyone when you buy an UD and wander the lower concourse. I completely disagree. The concessions and bathrooms are still packed because of all the wanderers still drink, eat and tinkle! :gulp:

And besides that, how can anyone complain that the Sox are using a bad situation for financial gain? :?:

The "upgrade" has been allowed the last number of years, not because the Sox care about their fans, but because the security didn't give a sh*t!

You can buy tickets for the lower bowl to just about any game. There are 2 half price nights a week, plus if you can commit to a 7 game package, there is another discount.

People are never satisfied. If you buy a Escort, do not expect it to be a nice as a Lexus. When you fly do not expect coach to be as nice as 1st class. And if a 1st class seat is open, do you think the airline would mind if you upgraded for free?


Money for nothing...

Nicely stated, Andy. I'm going to try the Comiskey Upgrade on my next American Airlines flight. They ought to be happy I'm flying them at all!!!
:gulp:

Brian26
04-25-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Only the media are allowed in the parks.

Yeah, but Hangar, do you really want to see Brad Palmer or "Suds" streaking across the field after the 6th inning?

cheeses_h_rice
04-25-2003, 03:35 PM
I wish I had known this policy would be put into place before I bought my Sox 7 tickets. Since you have to buy the same type of seats for all 7 games, I went for decent UD seats. I'm going to Sunday's game and wanted to hook up with a friend in the 100 level, see the new concourse features, walk around a bit, etc., but now apparently I won't even be able to do that. I'm all for some sensible modifications to keep out ne'er-do-wells from SITTING in the "good" seats, but to keep out people entirely from enjoying all the improvements of the park is just ridiculous.

SaltyPretzel
04-25-2003, 03:49 PM
If you're meeting friends in the 100 level, there shouldn't be a problem. Just have one of them meet you on the ramp with an extra stub from one of your other friends.

cheeses_h_rice
04-25-2003, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by SaltyPretzel
If you're meeting friends in the 100 level, there shouldn't be a problem. Just have one of them meet you on the ramp with an extra stub from one of your other friends.

That's inconvenient, but prolly the best workaround...thanks for the tip.

TornLabrum
04-26-2003, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Here's the BEST solution of all: sell enough seats to fill the lower bowl. Then the problem eliminates itself. You can't do it without selling more multi-game packages. Rob Gallas, king of the single-game promotion nights, hasn't a clue how to do it.

Here's a thought. The Sox have a 7-game package as their cheapest multi-game package. A month or so ago I purchased a 5-game "mini-season ticket" package from the Joliet Jackhammers. The package gave me the right to purchase the same seats for opening day.

The Sox 7-game package comes with the incentive that the last game costs a dollar. Maybe they should go for similar packages with incentives, maybe for as few as 3-5 games.

Daver
04-26-2003, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Here's a thought. The Sox have a 7-game package as their cheapest multi-game package. A month or so ago I purchased a 5-game "mini-season ticket" package from the Joliet Jackhammers. The package gave me the right to purchase the same seats for opening day.

The Sox 7-game package comes with the incentive that the last game costs a dollar. Maybe they should go for similar packages with incentives, maybe for as few as 3-5 games.

Let me know when I can meet you at a Jackhammers game Hal.

TornLabrum
04-26-2003, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by daver
Let me know when I can meet you at a Jackhammers game Hal.

Check out the web sites for the dates of the 5-game minipackage. That's when Jeff and I will be there. I don't have the tickets yet, and I don't remember the row. I know we're on the aisle in the section just on the first base (I think) side of home plate. Anyway, May 24 is opening day, as I recall, and I'll let you know before then our dates and seats.

ChiWhiteSox1337
04-26-2003, 02:04 AM
ah well, i like sitting in the outfield anyways. the only way it'll affect me is for when the white sox play the cubs at USCF since the sox only sold UD tickets to the public

doogiec
04-26-2003, 09:01 AM
I think a good rule of thumb to follow when considering if something is wrong or not is to ask “What would happen if everyone else did the same thing?” I think this rule applies well to the “Comiskey Upgrade”.

What if everyone who normally paid full price for a lower deck ticket decided from now on to purchase a cheaper upper deck ticket, and move down to the lower deck seats? If an average of 15,000 fans buy lower deck seats to each game, and if on average they pay $10 more per ticket, the cost of this seemingly trivial infraction comes to $12,150,000 per year. And if your argument is this doesn’t matter because it can never happen, its time to look in the mirror because you have an entitlement problem. If you think it’s alright for you to do this, then you should think its OK for everyone else.

Just as all honest taxpayers pay more to cover the cost of those who don’t pay taxes, just as our car insurance is higher to cover the cost of uninsured motorists, just as we all pay more in stores to cover the cost of shoplifters, those of us who pay to sit in the lower deck pay more to cover the lost revenue of those who intentionally pay less than what they plan to use.

And from a marketing standpoint, the Comiskey Upgrade is a disaster from two directions. First, anyone understands that any business that treats its most loyal customers (I’m talking loyal from a financial perspective only) worse than its least loyal customers is doomed. By selling day of game walkup tickets for $10 less than what a season ticket holder pays and letting those people sit in the same or better seats, the Sox are committing marketing suicide. Second, the Sox are giving absolutely no reason to purchase tickets in advance of the game. Why buy the tickets early if you’re just going to walk down to the best seats in the house anyway? And then, if it’s raining, threatening rain, cloudy or the team is playing poorly, you can save your money and just stay home. One of the reasons the Cubs have good attendance no matter what kind of year they are having is because they force their fans to buy tickets in advance to get good seats. The Sox encourage their fans to wait to the last minute to buy tickets.

Obviously, I’m happy with the changes made by the Sox. And even when I do occasionally have upper deck seats I’ll still be happy with it.

WhiteSoxWinner
04-26-2003, 01:38 PM
OK, I have to say that this is a completely unrealistic hypothetical. The best analogies and hypotheticals have a strong basis or possibility in reality. So let's throw out this whole "what if everyone did it" concept. What you are missing, which is also a key business concept, is goodwill. Businesses try to build up goodwill with their customers. As described prior, me and a few friends took an upgrade to the fifth row third base side. Security came and told us they didn't mind if we moved into a section that was half empty, but not to get greedy. That is fair enough. And it built up goodwill with us.

What does that turn into? Future season ticketholders. Someday, I will hold a full season ticket package as opposed to a partial, and I am sure that there are a lot of other people who have grown up taking the upgrade, had great memories, and then bought packages.

It is obvious to everyone here that the Sox marketing is horrible, so anything that destroys any of the goodwill they have had with fans is detrimental to this club.

joecrede
04-26-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
OK, I have to say that this is a completely unrealistic hypothetical. The best analogies and hypotheticals have a strong basis or possibility in reality. So let's throw out this whole "what if everyone did it" concept. What you are missing, which is also a key business concept, is goodwill. Businesses try to build up goodwill with their customers. As described prior, me and a few friends took an upgrade to the fifth row third base side. Security came and told us they didn't mind if we moved into a section that was half empty, but not to get greedy. That is fair enough. And it built up goodwill with us.

What does that turn into? Future season ticketholders. Someday, I will hold a full season ticket package as opposed to a partial, and I am sure that there are a lot of other people who have grown up taking the upgrade, had great memories, and then bought packages.

It is obvious to everyone here that the Sox marketing is horrible, so anything that destroys any of the goodwill they have had with fans is detrimental to this club.

But what does it do to to current season ticket holders? The Comiskey upgrade devalues their seat. You should appreciate your team's season ticket holders because they are the lifeblood of the organization. Doogiec's post earlier should be required reading.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-26-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
OK, I have to say that this is a completely unrealistic hypothetical. The best analogies and hypotheticals have a strong basis or possibility in reality. So let's throw out this whole "what if everyone did it" concept. What you are missing, which is also a key business concept, is goodwill. Businesses try to build up goodwill with their customers. As described prior, me and a few friends took an upgrade to the fifth row third base side. Security came and told us they didn't mind if we moved into a section that was half empty, but not to get greedy. That is fair enough. And it built up goodwill with us.

What does that turn into? Future season ticketholders. Someday, I will hold a full season ticket package as opposed to a partial, and I am sure that there are a lot of other people who have grown up taking the upgrade, had great memories, and then bought packages.

It is obvious to everyone here that the Sox marketing is horrible, so anything that destroys any of the goodwill they have had with fans is detrimental to this club.

I think you're stretching the definition of goodwill as a business concept beyond all recognition.

Goodwill is an accounting measure of additional book value beyond what a tangible analysis would otherwise render. The most obvious example of applying this concept is the purchase of some asset, such as the business of your nearest competitor. The price you paid probably includes goodwill simply because your competitor never would have sold to you unless they got a premium on their selling price. It's a perfectly reasonable business expense, well within generally accepted accounting principles.

What you described above (goodwill to you and your friends as potential future season ticketholders) is NOT goodwill. If you and your friends were ACTUALLY BUYING season tickets, and the Sox thought you were such valuable new season ticketholders that they gave you a "double-secret-probation" discount 50 percent greater than the published rates they offer everyone else, THAT would be goodwill.

However, that is NOT what you're doing. Only in your dreams do you think the Sox are showing goodwill by letting you sit in empty seats they wouldn't have made money on regardless. There is another business concept known as the present value of future money. You and your friends are only worth pennies to the White Sox on the future dollars you might spend on future season ticket purchases.

Besides your future spending being relatively worthless, the vast, Vast, VAST majority of people like you grabbing empty seats never buy anything significant at all. You're only potential new revenue streams, thus the value of letting you grab empty seats has even LESS VALUE to the Sox. Believe me, this is NOT goodwill they're showing you.

The Sox let you sit in empty blue seats for only one good reason: It's not good business to piss off customers when it costs your business NOTHING to not piss them off. That's why they let you sit in certain empty blue seats, but not others. Well, duh. The REAL season ticketholders might resent having spent REAL money to have you freeload in the seats next to them.

It didn't cost the Sox anything to give you Comiskey Upgrades until the Ligues, Dybas, Skutniks, and assorted other low-lifes started making national headlines for the Sox with their low-life antics. The Sox can't afford to let it happen anymore, so now everyone (at least until after the all-star game) has to sit in the seats they bought.

Yes, that includes everyone who thought the Sox were grooming them as future season ticketholders. Goodwill, it ain't.

ramblermgr9599
04-26-2003, 04:20 PM
Are the Sox saying that is it the fans that have less money run on the field??? I think that is bad to say. 3 of the people were sitting in the bleachers that night! Its like the Titanic all over again!!! Keep the lower class far away and don't let them close because they are trouble makers is what the SOX are implying-----this is WRONG!

voodoochile
04-26-2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
But what does it do to to current season ticket holders? The Comiskey upgrade devalues their seat. You should appreciate your team's season ticket holders because they are the lifeblood of the organization. Doogiec's post earlier should be required reading.

No, it doesn't. It's pretty simple. People who want to be guaranteed seats at certain locations in the LD buy those seats. The upgraders (as has been admitted and agreed to by everyone who does it) risk having to move out of their preferred seats. That doesn't devalue the seat at all, IMO and people who get all worked up about it are being just plain silly...

Upgrading at baseball stadiums is a time honored tradition. Everyone does it at every park given the chance. Some places are stricter, some are looser, but unlike the other sports - which traditionally have a much lower percentage of empty seats for any given game - baseball has always been a sport where people slide into better seats based on availability. It's just the way it is. It's also part of the marketing that baseball uses it to sell itself - family, casual, fun at the ballpark. Individual baseball games are not live and die affairs for most of the people who go to them. It's just an entertaining way to spend an afternoon/evening and that is the way they market the product. That means more casual security and more relaxed atmosphere.

I've encountered this first hand when I've sat in seats and had other people come and ask me to move - in front of security guards. I move over a couple of seats and the guards have not even batted an eye. The Sox have been condoning it. Whether implicitly or explicitly doesn't really matter - by that standard it does meet the definition of goodwill, IMO.

joecrede
04-26-2003, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No, it doesn't. It's pretty simple. People who want to be guaranteed seats at certain locations in the LD buy those seats. The upgraders (as has been admitted and agreed to by everyone who does it) risk having to move out of their preferred seats. That doesn't devalue the seat at all, IMO and people who get all worked up about it are being just plain silly...

Why don't you just buy a ticket to a seat in the lower bowl if that is where you want to sit?

soxnut
04-26-2003, 04:36 PM
I don't this the Sox are saying that those that sit in the UD are lower class----maybe you think you are if you sit up there. I sit there and don't think I'm lower class, and I don't think the Sox do either. There just trying to put some controls into place for now, unfortunately :(:


I also sit in the lower seats as well. In either case I am not going to run on the field.(I would like to go on it someday, but I'm not going Dybas or Skutnik about it. People should just sit in the seats that they paid for. I do think it's a shame that you can't take a walk around the lower concourse now, if you have a UD ticket. It's one of the best attractions about the park. :smile:

voodoochile
04-26-2003, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Why don't you just buy a ticket to a seat in the lower bowl if that is where you want to sit?

Actually, I like to sit behind home plate - or at least behind the infield, so I get UD seats because they tend to be there and for less money. When I go to the park and there are a bunch of those seats available downstairs, I go ahead and grab them. I don't go to the park expecting to do the upgrade, but sometimes I do it anyway.

voodoochile
04-26-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
I don't this the Sox are saying that those that sit in the UD are lower class----maybe you think you are if you sit up there. I sit there and don't think I'm lower class, and I don't think the Sox do either. There just trying to put some controls into place for now, unfortunately :(:


I also sit in the lower seats as well. In either case I am not going to run on the field.(I would like to go on it someday, but I'm not going Dybas or Skutnik about it. People should just sit in the seats that they paid for. I do think it's a shame that you can't take a walk around the lower concourse now, if you have a UD ticket. It's one of the best attractions about the park. :smile:

If you want to go on the field, buy a ticket for the sleepover. Please don't do it during a game. If you do do it during a game. I hope you get your ass kicked by security and locked up in a cell for at least a night.

joecrede
04-26-2003, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
What does that turn into? Future season ticketholders. Someday, I will hold a full season ticket package as opposed to a partial, and I am sure that there are a lot of other people who have grown up taking the upgrade, had great memories, and then bought packages.

If a person is unwilling to pay roughly double the price to guarantee a seat in the lower bowl for one game, I seriously doubt that they would be willing to purchase season tix.

It is obvious to everyone here that the Sox marketing is horrible, so anything that destroys any of the goodwill they have had with fans is detrimental to this club.

So in effect you advocate holding the White Sox hostage. Saying that if they do not allow the stealing of these seat locations there could be consequences.

WhiteSoxWinner
04-26-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I think you're stretching the definition of goodwill as a business concept beyond all recognition.

Goodwill is an accounting measure of additional book value beyond what a tangible analysis would otherwise render. The most obvious example of applying this concept is the purchase of some asset, such as the business of your nearest competitor. The price you paid probably includes goodwill simply because your competitor never would have sold to you unless they got a premium on their selling price. It's a perfectly reasonable business expense, well within generally accepted accounting principles.

Very very technical. I think your definition is much too narrow. What do call it when a bartender at a bar you frequent gives you a pitcher on the house? Webster's first defintion of goodwill is "1 a : a kindly feeling of approval and support : benevolent interest or concern " The team would be taking an interest (not a personal interest, but an interest as a customer) in you by allowing you sit there and not pissing you off (as you also mentioned). Even if you don't want to call it goodwill, then call it something else, but the idea is the same.

I guess I am puzzled by your segregating the "real money" that season ticketholders spend versus the "worthless money" that everyone else spends. An empty seat, be it in the season ticket holder sections or in the upper deck, earns just as much money. NONE!

In addition, the Sox don't have enough season ticket holders to say, forget everyone else, and with all the illwill that fans have against JR, they never will. They will need more "worthless money" to make up for the lack of "real money". Forget the upgrade; by banning upperdeck fans from many of the improvements made at the park, they are creating more illwill.

By the way, this whole Time value of money thing is ridiculous. Spend a few thousand on seasons or buy one ticket at $22, and the dollar for dollar decrease due to the time value of money is the same. Are you advocating that they should have PSL's or make you buy for ten year stretches? If prices stay the same (ha ha ha) then the money season ticket holders spend will also be devalued by inflation. Beacuse hey, based on the time value of money, the season ticket holders who spend real money, should be able to afford it. Also, JR gets his money right now, does not have to give up anything in the way of the devaluation of money based on interest rates, and BONUS, gets rid of those season ticket holders who don't have enough real money to afford it.

Finally, there is something called opportunity cost. The true cost of something is what you give up to get it. This includes not only the money spent in buying (or doing) the something, but also the economic benefits that you did without because you bought (or did) that particular something and thus can no longer buy (or do) something else.

So, what is JR's opportunity cost by killing the upgrade and banning upperdeck fans from the lower concourse? He creates illwill and makes it less likely for some people to come back. Some of these people may become season ticketholders in the future spending "real money" who will now decide not to. Regardless of whether they do or not, money spent at the park is revenue for the Sox, regardless of the amount. People stop showing up, it means less revenue. In addition, what is JR's real cost for letting someone move down? None. The seat was empty anyway and not generating revenue.

joecrede
04-26-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Actually, I like to sit behind home plate - or at least behind the infield, so I get UD seats because they tend to be there and for less money. When I go to the park and there are a bunch of those seats available downstairs, I go ahead and grab them. I don't go to the park expecting to do the upgrade, but sometimes I do it anyway.

Can't you sit behind home plate when you get an UD seat? Anyway, I'll never agree with the "upgraders". They can spin it all they want, but it's still stealing.

WhiteSoxWinner
04-26-2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Can't you sit behind home plate when you get an UD seat? Anyway, I'll never agree with the "upgraders". They can spin it all they want, but it's still stealing.

It's a victimless crime, then. I think most people can live it on their conscious. :smile:

joecrede
04-26-2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
Very very technical. I think your definition is much too narrow. What do call it when a bartender at a bar you frequent gives you a pitcher on the house?

That would be tantamount to sitting in the LD seats for an inning during a blowout. Not purchasing a ticket in the lowest price range and sitting in the premium seats for the entire game.

WhiteSoxWinner
04-26-2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
That would be tantamount to sitting in the LD seats for an inning during a blowout. Not purchasing a ticket in the lowest price range and sitting in the premium seats for the entire game.

So you are saying it is ok to "steal" for an inning, but not longer? And only in a blowout? What if that inning was only five minutes long? Then someone else got to stay through a rally inning that lasts fifteen minutes?

What if the person was there in the seventh when the Sox were down by six runs, but was sitting down there during the rally inning, and the Sox came back, and it wasn't a blowout? Then is it stealing or not because you were there before the blowout?

You should have stuck to the definite view of upgrading is stealing. You had a much better arguement at the time. Now you have introduced doubt that it isn't stealing sometimes. I advocate that regardless of the score or the length of time, an empty seat is an empty seat at any point during a game and there is no problem to make use of it.

voodoochile
04-26-2003, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
That would be tantamount to sitting in the LD seats for an inning during a blowout. Not purchasing a ticket in the lowest price range and sitting in the premium seats for the entire game.

If no one ever shows up for those seats, what does it matter? It becomes much ado about NOTHING! No one gets hurt. No one gets bothered. The Sox get some extra people in the park who wouldn't be there otherwise and spending their money to do so. Yes, it isn't as much money as they SHOULD be spending to sit in that seat, but in the end, they are there, spending money on the team and not bothering ANYONE except people who CHOOSE to be upset. In the end it doesn't matter in the least and people can scream "devaluation" or "stealing" all they want in the end the words become meaningless. Yes, it is a case of the ends justifying the means. But, the Sox have not only allowed it to go on, they have tacitly condoned it for years.

I don't have a problem with the new policys, but the rhetoric being thrown around about something that in the end doesn't change one damn thing - except put more money in the Sox pockets - is way over the top. To be sure, it is less money than they would like to get, but more than they would have received otherwise...

joecrede
04-26-2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
It's a victimless crime, then. I think most people can live it on their conscious. :smile:

You can feel that way if you want. The flip side of "upgraders" in my view is that you have less of a right to complain about JR spending money when they have played a part in devaluing the premium seats.

WhiteSoxWinner
04-26-2003, 05:35 PM
Bingo, Voodoo. Wish I had put it together that well to begin with.

voodoochile
04-26-2003, 05:36 PM
One other point...

The Sox have created the "perceived value" of those seats themselves by selling them for half-price on a regular basis. If someone buys a full price UD ticket, it is the same as a half-price LD ticket. So, in effect, the Sox have "devalued" their own product and who can blame the fans for feeling that $28 is too damn much for a LD seat that they purchased for $14 earlier in the week?

joecrede
04-26-2003, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
So you are saying it is ok to "steal" for an inning, but not longer? And only in a blowout? What if that inning was only five minutes long? Then someone else got to stay through a rally inning that lasts fifteen minutes?

What if the person was there in the seventh when the Sox were down by six runs, but was sitting down there during the rally inning, and the Sox came back, and it wasn't a blowout? Then is it stealing or not because you were there before the blowout?

Youre analogy was a free round from a bartender being the same as "upgrading". Bad analogy.

I would have stuck to the definite view of upgrading is stealing. You had a much better arguement at the time. Now you have introduced doubt that it isn't stealing sometimes. I advocate that regardless of the score or the length of time, an empty seat is an empty seat at any point during a game and there is no problem to make use of it.

"Upgrading" defined as purchasing a ticket in a lower price range and sitting in a higher priced seat is stealing. No change in my position.

jortafan
04-26-2003, 07:23 PM
Two points to make, then I'll be quiet.

1) There's quite a difference in moving in mid-game to a better seat that opens up (such as going from your seat in row 32 to one in row 3, or moving from section 114 to section 129) and being one of the cheap turds who only shows up on half-price night, deliberately buys a seat in the upper half of the upper deck, then tries to get in that row 3 or section 129 seat. The idea that the Comiskey upgrade is a "time-honored" baseball tradition is a crock.

2) The recent round of improvements to the stadium included fixing up the upper-deck concourse under the stands so that it resembled the lower-deck concourse, thereby offering the people upstairs many of the same ammenities. I don't see much of a difference. And if your complaint is that you won't be able to get wet under the old shower head now set up in left field, then all I have to say is you need to get a life.

doogiec
04-26-2003, 10:55 PM
Are the Sox saying that is it the fans that have less money run on the field??? I think that is bad to say. 3 of the people were sitting in the bleachers that night! Its like the Titanic all over again!!! Keep the lower class far away and don't let them close because they are trouble makers is what the SOX are implying-----this is WRONG!

I don't think this should be a "class warfare" type issue. The people on the Titanic died after being trapped in rat infested quarters and drowning. No one will die because they are trapped in the Upper Deck. We live in a capitalist country where the more money you spend the more you expect to get in return. The USSR attempted to create a society where everyone was financially equal. Didn't work.

What does that turn into? Future season ticketholders. Someday, I will hold a full season ticket package as opposed to a partial, and I am sure that there are a lot of other people who have grown up taking the upgrade, had great memories, and then bought packages.

While I don't doubt that you may move to full season tickets in the future since you currently go to a lot of games, it is unlikely that the majority of fans who are buying the cheapest ticket on the day of the game are anywhere near even considering season tickets. I would guess that someone considering dropping over $2000 per seat a year would be willing to drop an extra $10 for a lower deck ticket.

And while you are thinking of honoring that "goodwill" with future ticket sales, many other people don't think that way. I split season tickets with a few other people. This year I needed to replace a couple of guys in the group (unemployment took a bad toll on us this year). I had four Sox fans I know refuse because they prefer to buy UD seats and "Upgrade". One flat out told me that he went to seven games last year, sat in better seats than mine for all seven, and never paid full price. He thought I was nuts.

Upgrading at baseball stadiums is a time honored tradition. Everyone does it at every park given the chance. Some places are stricter, some are looser, but unlike the other sports - which traditionally have a much lower percentage of empty seats for any given game - baseball has always been a sport where people slide into better seats based on availability.

I've been to a couple of dozen major league parks in my life and never seen one where upgrading was so easy. And I've never been to one where it was allowed at all in the season ticket areas. I've heard that upgrading at Yankee Stadium or Fenway can cause ejection from the park.

The Sox have created the "perceived value" of those seats themselves by selling them for half-price on a regular basis. If someone buys a full price UD ticket, it is the same as a half-price LD ticket. So, in effect, the Sox have "devalued" their own product and who can blame the fans for feeling that $28 is too damn much for a LD seat that they purchased for $14 earlier in the week?

The Sox discount each ticket sold to season ticket holders. The discount works out to roughly the same as if they gave the season ticket holders half price tickets on Mon and Tues. So while they may be devaluing the tickets they are doing it evenly for everyone, not just the walk up sales. And the reason for the discount is legit, Mon and Tues were traditionally their lightest nights in attendance. Also the Sox are offering the discount, the fans aren't just taking it on their own.

The Sox created this mess themselves by being to cheap to hire qualified ushers and being too lazy to train them properly. While I've seen people trying to sneak into better seats all my life, I have never seen (until the last couple of years at Sox Park) fans actually arguing with ushers when asked to move out the the box seats, and fans actually arguing with the legit ticketholders when they arrived at their seats. At least in the old days when people were sneaking they dealt with it like adults when called on it.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-27-2003, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by doogiec
I don't think this should be a "class warfare" type issue. The people on the Titanic died after being trapped in rat infested quarters and drowning. No one will die because they are trapped in the Upper Deck. We live in a capitalist country where the more money you spend the more you expect to get in return. The USSR attempted to create a society where everyone was financially equal. Didn't work.



While I don't doubt that you may move to full season tickets in the future since you currently go to a lot of games, it is unlikely that the majority of fans who are buying the cheapest ticket on the day of the game are anywhere near even considering season tickets. I would guess that someone considering dropping over $2000 per seat a year would be willing to drop an extra $10 for a lower deck ticket.

And while you are thinking of honoring that "goodwill" with future ticket sales, many other people don't think that way. I split season tickets with a few other people. This year I needed to replace a couple of guys in the group (unemployment took a bad toll on us this year). I had four Sox fans I know refuse because they prefer to buy UD seats and "Upgrade". One flat out told me that he went to seven games last year, sat in better seats than mine for all seven, and never paid full price. He thought I was nuts.



I've been to a couple of dozen major league parks in my life and never seen one where upgrading was so easy. And I've never been to one where it was allowed at all in the season ticket areas. I've heard that upgrading at Yankee Stadium or Fenway can cause ejection from the park.



The Sox discount each ticket sold to season ticket holders. The discount works out to roughly the same as if they gave the season ticket holders half price tickets on Mon and Tues. So while they may be devaluing the tickets they are doing it evenly for everyone, not just the walk up sales. And the reason for the discount is legit, Mon and Tues were traditionally their lightest nights in attendance. Also the Sox are offering the discount, the fans aren't just taking it on their own.

The Sox created this mess themselves by being too cheap to hire qualified ushers and being too lazy to train them properly. While I've seen people trying to sneak into better seats all my life, I have never seen (until the last couple of years at Sox Park) fans actually arguing with ushers when asked to move out the the box seats, and fans actually arguing with the legit ticketholders when they arrived at their seats. At least in the old days when people were sneaking they dealt with it like adults when called on it.

You're talking way too much sense here, Doog. This is easily the best post in this thread. Way to go!

:gulp:

Viva Magglio
04-27-2003, 10:04 PM
The policy instituted by the White Sox is actually a common one nationwide. In St. Louis, for example, you cannot access the field level lower concourse at Busch Stadium where the field boxes are unless you have a ticket for that section. This is an effective crowd control method.

I would like to know how the Fourth Estate, smarter than God in its own mind -- just ask them, reacted to this. Did North, the closet Cub fan who claims he's a Sox fan (IMO), tear the Sox a new one over this?

Daver
04-27-2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by ¡Viva Mágglio!
Did North, the closet Cub fan who claims he's a Sox fan (IMO), tear the Sox a new one over this?


Your the only one here that listens to the Score as far as I can tell Viva,everyone has given up on that poor excuse of a radio station.

:)

TornLabrum
04-27-2003, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by daver
Your the only one here that listens to the Score as far as I can tell Viva,everyone has given up on that poor excuse of a radio station.

:)

I listen to Murph and Fred in the morning because I don't care to listen to music on my drive to work, and I can't stand Howard, Don and Roma, Spike, or Felicia and Pat. As far as the other sportstalk station, a few minutes of Tom Shaer every half hour ain't Chicago enough for me.

Jerko
04-30-2003, 01:41 PM
Upper Deck SEASON TICKET HOLDERS are allowed to go to the lower bowl! It's the walk up sales that are affected by this, i.e., the unemployed drunk who got into the park because he knew it would only cost 7 bucks, and he wound up on the field. If you want to go to a game and sit in the lower level, buy a bleacher seat and quit whining! I remember old Comiskey park; they checked tickets at the aisles all the time! I couldn't buy a bleacher seat and sit anywhere back then, why should I now? I am a lower deck season ticket holder and I personally like not having 1000 extra people standing around in my section for a quarter of what it cost me to sit there.

Hangar18
04-30-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by daver
Your the only one here that listens to the Score as far as I can tell Viva,everyone has given up on that poor excuse of a radio station.

:)

hes right. ive given up on that station. Way too much Cub Talk for a station thats supposed to be giving Equal time to the Sox too. That Murph guy has it good....talk Cub all Day and use the Station as your Personal Gabfest. Not anymore. Ive had it.
I only listen to Swieca.

dllrbll7
04-30-2003, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
Upper Deck SEASON TICKET HOLDERS are allowed to go to the lower bowl! It's the walk up sales that are affected by this, i.e., the unemployed drunk who got into the park because he knew it would only cost 7 bucks, and he wound up on the field. If you want to go to a game and sit in the lower level, buy a bleacher seat and quit whining! I remember old Comiskey park; they checked tickets at the aisles all the time! I couldn't buy a bleacher seat and sit anywhere back then, why should I now? I am a lower deck season ticket holder and I personally like not having 1000 extra people standing around in my section for a quarter of what it cost me to sit there.

How are they going to tell the difference between season ticket holders and non UD season ticket holders? I guess season tickets may have the nice color stubs but what about the split packages and sox 7 people? do they get access?

npdempse
04-30-2003, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by dllrbll7
How are they going to tell the difference between season ticket holders and non UD season ticket holders? I guess season tickets may have the nice color stubs but what about the split packages and sox 7 people? do they get access?

Split packages also have the glossy color tix.

steff
04-30-2003, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by dllrbll7
How are they going to tell the difference between season ticket holders and non UD season ticket holders? I guess season tickets may have the nice color stubs but what about the split packages and sox 7 people? do they get access?


Anyone who bought a package will get access is what I was told last night. They can tell because season tickets have account #'s on them and they also look different than day of game bought tickets. They are bigger and prettier.. :D: with pictures of the players.

Paxson93
04-30-2003, 05:17 PM
All the crying here is a little pointless-- if the Andy Frains can't keep UD ticket holders from walking down the aisle to sit behind home plate, they are not going to be effective in keeping them from strolling the concourse. They've got to be the laziest employees on earth. Maybe they'll check you initially or for big games, but I think for the most part, you'll be all good. Wander away.
I had UD tickets for a Cubs-Sox last summer and we just had friends collect LD ticket stubs and pass them out to us so we could come and stand on the concourse. Getting by such a silly rule isn't rocket science.
However, I don't really understand the point of this rule as a means to stop fools from running on the field. Are they trying to say that people who can afford to buy LD seats are too refined to rush the field? I don't buy that. I have season tickets and sit near some major fools in the LD. Didn't the 1st piece of white trash who jumped Gamboa legitimatly have seats on the 1st base side?

cheeses_h_rice
04-30-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
Upper Deck SEASON TICKET HOLDERS are allowed to go to the lower bowl! It's the walk up sales that are affected by this, i.e., the unemployed drunk who got into the park because he knew it would only cost 7 bucks, and he wound up on the field. If you want to go to a game and sit in the lower level, buy a bleacher seat and quit whining! I remember old Comiskey park; they checked tickets at the aisles all the time! I couldn't buy a bleacher seat and sit anywhere back then, why should I now? I am a lower deck season ticket holder and I personally like not having 1000 extra people standing around in my section for a quarter of what it cost me to sit there.

I'm certainly not an unemployed drunk, but I got screwed hard by the change in Sox UD policy. I bought my Sox 7 tix, all for the UD, because I didn't feel like spending all that extra dough (x 2, as I bought a pair for each game) for what would likely have been a worse view of the action.

This past Sunday, you would not believe the difficulty I had in just meeting someone who had 100-level tickets. He was in section 159, so I tried to walk down the ramp closest to that section; the ramp was closed (because, apparently, they hadn't sold any tickets in the 555+ sections to make it easier to clean the park). So, I walked down the ramp nearest to that, hoping to meet him at the 300 level. Because it had taken me so long to get to the 300 level, my friend had walked up to the 500 level and tried to find me at my seats; he was lucky they even let him look for me. Finally we bumped into each other on the ramps, and I went down with him, borrowed his friend's ticket stub, just so I could check out the new outfield concourse for 10 minutes. And, of course, by the time I wanted to go back up to the 500 level, they had shut off the escalators, so I had to walk up that criss-crossing ramp system to get back to my seats. I missed about an inning and a half just walking up and down the stupid ramps.

Mind you, I wasn't trying to sit in the 100 level seats, I was just trying to check out some of the improvements in the park, harmlessly walking around the concourse. Because of a handful of phallus craniums, even doing this turned out to be a monumental chore. IMO, I don't see the harm in letting 500-level ticket holders knock themselves out on the concourse. There are different foods/drinks and amenities that you can't experience anywhere else in the park. And how often during the year is overcrowding down there a problem? Like, 6-7 times at most?

PaleHoseGeorge
04-30-2003, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Paxson93
....I don't really understand the point of this rule as a means to stop fools from running on the field. Are they trying to say that people who can afford to buy LD seats are too refined to rush the field? I don't buy that. I have season tickets and sit near some major fools in the LD. Didn't the 1st piece of white trash who jumped Gamboa legitimatly have seats on the 1st base side?

The Ligues' family outing last September was in the upper deck. However the date fell on a Thursday, so they did pay full-price. The papers quoted several LD fans who noticed the shirtless and tattooed Ligues moving down into empty seats long before they jumped the rail and attacked Gamboa. Before jumping the rail, Ligue used his cell phone to contact his wife/girlfriend/sex partner to make sure she was watching the game--clear evidence of criminal premeditation.

So are LD fans "more refined" than UD fans? Doubtful, but they sure don't stand out in a crowd like the Ligues did. He was a known quantity to both fans inside and outside the ballpark long before he made his criminal move.

steff
05-01-2003, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by Paxson93
Didn't the 1st piece of white trash who jumped Gamboa legitimatly have seats on the 1st base side?


No. He had UD section 532 seats if I remember correctly.