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View Full Version : is it ever going to be "easy" with Koch closing?


cheeses_h_rice
04-22-2003, 08:14 PM
He came so close to blowing that game yet again....man.

HawkDJ
04-22-2003, 08:22 PM
Looks like he is throwing 94-95 MPH tops. I don't know what he threw in Oakland but I always heard he could throw 100. I don't know what is wrong with him.

TornLabrum
04-22-2003, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
He came so close to blowing that game yet again....man.

In a "Fallen Arches" column I wrote right after the trade, I quoted an article by an Oakland writer that was highly critical of Koch. A laser straight fastball and poor control were his biggest complaints.

voodoochile
04-22-2003, 08:32 PM
Well, hopefully it gets easier, but I don't want to rush to judgement on the guy either. I realize that I am extra nervous because of how he started out this year, but tonight wasn't that bad, IMO. Yeah, I was nervous, but I wouldn't have been if he hadn't struggled in his last outing and again earlier in the year.

I get nervous whenever JM takes out a pitcher who is cruising like Loaiza was, even if he did just give up a HR. He was just over 100 pitches and had only given up 4 hits. Let the guy finish...

thecell
04-22-2003, 08:40 PM
We should all be used to the tension...Foulke sure as hell didn't make things easy in the 9th. At least Koch isn't walking a bunch of people.

StepsInSC
04-22-2003, 08:40 PM
Well I always remember Oakland fans complaining how he almost always put at least one runner on the bases even in the game he saves so it probably won't ever get 123 easy with him

HawkDJ
04-22-2003, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
Well I always remember Oakland fans complaining how he almost always put at least one runner on the bases even in the game he saves so it probably won't ever get 123 easy with him

After Foulke had a 1-2-3 inning for a save earlier this year in Oakland, the announcers said jokingly "How many of those did Koch give us last year?"

THE_HOOTER
04-22-2003, 09:38 PM
Koch has lost some velocity it looks like to me.

Every ball hit off of him was hard.

However, it was a gutty save.

TheBigHurt
04-22-2003, 09:52 PM
ONCE again......HE'LL be fine :)...... I can asure you of that

jeremyb1
04-22-2003, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by thecell
We should all be used to the tension...Foulke sure as hell didn't make things easy in the 9th. At least Koch isn't walking a bunch of people.

koch has walked 5 in 10 ip. that's not very good. he's walked 131 in 314 career innings vs. 124 in 500 ip for foulke in his career. fouke has also walked fewer players this season than koch, 3 in 9.1 ip.

additionally one other thing that should be considered about koch is that while his problem is most likely just mechanics, we are talking about a pitcher who threw a lot of innings last season and many speculated that beane traded him partially because of that workload.

Dadawg_77
04-22-2003, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by thecell
We should all be used to the tension...Foulke sure as hell didn't make things easy in the 9th. At least Koch isn't walking a bunch of people.

Can I have what you are smoking? Seriously, I mean that must be some good ****. How much more do you have left over from 4/20? Five walks in 10 innings is some what high.

baggio202
04-22-2003, 10:21 PM
as long as koch isnt throwing 98 plus he is worthless...when yo uthrow as straight as he does you better be bringing it bigtime...i just koch doesnt blow the season before we get him out of there...if we were playng a better team tonight i would have seen BS written all over his performance

fuzzy_patters
04-22-2003, 10:29 PM
I'm not sure what's wrong with Koch right now. I listened to the Sox in the spring, and I remember Farmer and Rooney mentioning that the gun was reading 100-102 in several different games. Koch was basically unhittable in spring training. Now that the season has started, he seems to have lost velocity. Could he be going through a dead arm phase?

Fridaythe13thJason
04-22-2003, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
He came so close to blowing that game yet again....man.

Let's be objective here for a second...can you honestly say that he came close to blowing that game? More often than not, closers come in with a 1 or 2 run lead...does that mean that anytime they allow a baserunner they are coming close to blowing it? That's insane, and an insane expectation to have of a pitcher. Yes, recently he has struggled, but to allow one walk in an inning and get out just fine is not coming close to blowing it. That's lunacy.

fuzzy_patters
04-22-2003, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
Let's be objective here for a second...can you honestly say that he came close to blowing that game? More often than not, closers come in with a 1 or 2 run lead...does that mean that anytime they allow a baserunner they are coming close to blowing it? That's insane, and an insane expectation to have of a pitcher. Yes, recently he has struggled, but to allow one walk in an inning and get out just fine is not coming close to blowing it. That's lunacy.

He also had two balls hit hard off of him for fly outs. I've supported Koch so far, but I agree that he came close to blowing it.

baggio202
04-22-2003, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
He also had two balls hit hard off of him for fly outs. I've supported Koch so far, but I agree that he came close to blowing it.

dont know how bautista's ball stayed in the park...it really looked like he got all of it..carlos caught it at the wall...

speaking of carlos making a catch at the wallin the 9th why wasnt rios out there...did getting picked off of 2nd yesterday land him in the dog house??

cheeses_h_rice
04-22-2003, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
Let's be objective here for a second...can you honestly say that he came close to blowing that game? More often than not, closers come in with a 1 or 2 run lead...does that mean that anytime they allow a baserunner they are coming close to blowing it? That's insane, and an insane expectation to have of a pitcher. Yes, recently he has struggled, but to allow one walk in an inning and get out just fine is not coming close to blowing it. That's lunacy.

Batista missed a home run by mere feet -- I thought it was gone when he hit it. Then Koch walked Mora. Tying run at home plate (or the winning run if Batista's ball travels another 3 feet) and Cruz lines out deep to CF. It wasn't easy, as it should have been with 1 out and a 2 run lead in the 9th.

Let's face it: WALKING someone and allowing the tying run to come up, with Koch on the mound, is a suicide gambit for the White Sox. They get burned all the time in situations like that. Koch isn't blowing the ball past anyone; he's either walking them or allowing batters to smack the crap out of it.

voodoochile
04-23-2003, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Batista missed a home run by mere feet -- I thought it was gone when he hit it. Then Koch walked Mora. Tying run at home plate (or the winning run if Batista's ball travels another 3 feet) and Cruz lines out deep to CF. It wasn't easy, as it should have been with 1 out and a 2 run lead in the 9th.

Let's face it: WALKING someone and allowing the tying run to come up, with Koch on the mound, is a suicide gambit for the White Sox. They get burned all the time in situations like that. Koch isn't blowing the ball past anyone; he's either walking them or allowing batters to smack the crap out of it.

I feel your pain, but Koch has only appeared in 10 games, of which only half were save opps. He has blown 2 of those games, so it is a little early to be sayin "burned all the time", IMO. It hasn't been long enough for anyone to pass judgement on that situation yet.

BTW, he is averaging 9.9K/9IP, so he actually is blowing the ball by somebody...

I would imagine he is undergoing a bit of a confidence situation at the moment. He has to be a bit shaken by the two blown saves and the way they happened. If he is a little shaky, then it would be understandable. I think he'll be okay as the season progresses, but I admit that I rarely like to look at the negative possibilities...

T Dog
04-23-2003, 12:35 AM
Still, Koch didn't blow a save against the Detroit Tigers tonight. That would be Foulke. (Getting Tigers out is what Koch has done best this year.) There was a Tejada error involved in the Tigers' ninth, but by that time, one run had already scored. Some would complain Foulke had made the inning interesting.

The closers for the Mariners and Indians had interesting nights as well. Nobody seems automatic anymore. Except that kid in KC. And Bobby Thigpen for most of 1990.

Just be glad we won.

kermittheefrog
04-23-2003, 12:39 AM
I always felt comfortable with Foulke coming into the game. I knew he was damn good, Koch scares the hell out of me.

baggio202
04-23-2003, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I feel your pain, but Koch has only appeared in 10 games, of which only half were save opps. He has blown 2 of those games, so it is a little early to be sayin "burned all the time", IMO. It hasn't been long enough for anyone to pass judgement on that situation yet.

BTW, he is averaging 9.9K/9IP, so he actually is blowing the ball by somebody...

I would imagine he is undergoing a bit of a confidence situation at the moment. He has to be a bit shaken by the two blown saves and the way they happened. If he is a little shaky, then it would be understandable. I think he'll be okay as the season progresses, but I admit that I rarely like to look at the negative possibilities...

after the first KC debacle..koch went on a streak where he struck out like 5 , 6 maybe 7 in a row...i thought he had gotten his act together...guess not

kermittheefrog
04-23-2003, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by baggio202
after the first KC debacle..koch went on a streak where he struck out like 5 , 6 maybe 7 in a row...i thought he had gotten his act together...guess not

He struck out the side against Detroit but I checked out the logs of his games and he hasn't struck out more than two in a row outside of that.

baggio202
04-23-2003, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
He struck out the side against Detroit but I checked out the logs of his games and he hasn't struck out more than two in a row outside of that.

really??...i could have sworn i remember hawk saying something like thats 5 in a row ,or6 or 7, during that tigers series...oh well..thats what happens when ya git olde :)

kermittheefrog
04-23-2003, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by baggio202
really??...i could have sworn i remember hawk saying something like thats 5 in a row ,or6 or 7, during that tigers series...oh well..thats what happens when ya git olde :)

Don't be so down on yourself, you probably did hear Hawk say it :cool:

hsnterprize
04-23-2003, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I feel your pain, but Koch has only appeared in 10 games, of which only half were save opps. He has blown 2 of those games, so it is a little early to be sayin "burned all the time", IMO. It hasn't been long enough for anyone to pass judgement on that situation yet.

BTW, he is averaging 9.9K/9IP, so he actually is blowing the ball by somebody...

I would imagine he is undergoing a bit of a confidence situation at the moment. He has to be a bit shaken by the two blown saves and the way they happened. If he is a little shaky, then it would be understandable. I think he'll be okay as the season progresses, but I admit that I rarely like to look at the negative possibilities... I like Koch, and I like his stuff. It would be nice, though, if he didn't just throw heat. Do you know if he has a pitch other than his fastballs? There was a time in my lifetime (i.e., the 80's), when throwing all heat wasn't all that bad. But today's hitters are bigger, stronger, and more sophisticated with the bat. At least pitchers like Bruce Sutter had a split-finger, and Dwight Gooden had the occasional curve. Not to mention, our buddy Keith Foulke threw a slider every so often.

I also like Koch's swagger...he goes to the mound pretty confident. I know he'll be glad once he faces KC without giving up a homer. A 1-2-3 inning against the Royals will really boost his confidence.

gosox41
04-23-2003, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by thecell
We should all be used to the tension...Foulke sure as hell didn't make things easy in the 9th. At least Koch isn't walking a bunch of people.


I don't recall Foulke being this bad for this long. I cringe whenever Koch comes into the game.

Bob

gosox41
04-23-2003, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
I'm not sure what's wrong with Koch right now. I listened to the Sox in the spring, and I remember Farmer and Rooney mentioning that the gun was reading 100-102 in several different games. Koch was basically unhittable in spring training. Now that the season has started, he seems to have lost velocity. Could he be going through a dead arm phase?

I mentioned this when the Sox first trade for Koch. Is it possible that all those innings Koch pitched last year are taking their toll on him. I made the prediction that he is going to be this years version of Bobby Thigpen, whose career slowly sank after his 57 save year in 1990. Koch pitched a lot last year if you include post season, warming up, etc. It appears this is finally taking his toll on him.

Bob

Iguana775
04-23-2003, 08:22 AM
untill Billy Goat proves that he can consistantly get outs, I will not like him. I think I was more confortable with Foulke.

MetalliSox
04-23-2003, 08:23 AM
The only fastball Koch threw down the pipe was the 3-2 to Batista who flew out. Otherwise the ball was down and he hit tthe inside and outside corners. That has to be somewhat encouraging.

Bobby Thigpen
04-23-2003, 08:56 AM
I don't want to hear anybody complain about not having Foulke after nearly everyone ripped him apart last year and up until the Sox traded him this winter. This is one of the things that pisses me off. Everyone complained about how Foulke wasn't a "traditional" closer, and that he shouldn't be a closer, so the Sox got rid of him and got a "traditional" closer. Now all I hear is how everyone wishes Foulke was back because Koch is having a rough time of it. I have a feeling that if Koch saves 10 in a row everyone will act like he's the second coming of Jesus. And then when the Sox get rid of him after we do enough bitching about it then everyone will be pissed we don't have him.

Sorry for my rant, but some of this negativity gets to me some times. Right now the Sox aren't clicking on all cylinders and are doing pretty well. I think that's pretty encouraging. That's what championship teams do, they find ways to win even when they're not playing to well.

THE_HOOTER
04-23-2003, 10:00 AM
I never complained about Foulke; although I did get on him last year after the Yankee game.

Guys like Koch are a flash in the pan-they blow away hitters for a couple years, but then burn out.

He doesnt pitch, he just throws as hard as he can.

Foulke was a pitcher who you could use in a variety of ways. Not to mention we also gave up a good prospect.

Thank goodness for Gordon and Marte. At least we have some glimmer of hope.

Since Koch has been so horrible, I would assume he is on a very short leash.

This team was built to win, and we cannot afford to blow late inning games.

He got a nice save last night, but he walked a guy, and both balls hit were hit very hard.

Bobby Thigpen
04-23-2003, 10:14 AM
He got a nice save last night, but he walked a guy, and both balls hit were hit very hard.

Hooter, I'll agree with you that last night Koch did raise the old blood pressure, but all relievers do that, especially the ones the Sox get. In 1990 when Thigpen saved 57 there were more than a few stints where he walked guys, let guys hit homers, get hits, etc. One game against the Angels sticks out in my mind the most though. Thiggy seemed to always be one pitch from total disaster. I just think it's too early to throw away Koch. I find it hard to characterize a guy after a few bad performances.

fuzzy_patters
04-23-2003, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Hooter, I'll agree with you that last night Koch did raise the old blood pressure, but all relievers do that, especially the ones the Sox get. In 1990 when Thigpen saved 57 there were more than a few stints where he walked guys, let guys hit homers, get hits, etc. One game against the Angels sticks out in my mind the most though. Thiggy seemed to always be one pitch from total disaster. I just think it's too early to throw away Koch. I find it hard to characterize a guy after a few bad performances.

I disagree about Thigpen. I always new he would walk the first two and retire the rest. Since he did the same thing every game, it didn't make me nervous. I knew what to expect from him, and the only thing that mattered was that he got the save.

Dadawg_77
04-23-2003, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
I don't want to hear anybody complain about not having Foulke after nearly everyone ripped him apart last year and up until the Sox traded him this winter. This is one of the things that pisses me off. Everyone complained about how Foulke wasn't a "traditional" closer, and that he shouldn't be a closer, so the Sox got rid of him and got a "traditional" closer. Now all I hear is how everyone wishes Foulke was back because Koch is having a rough time of it. I have a feeling that if Koch saves 10 in a row everyone will act like he's the second coming of Jesus. And then when the Sox get rid of him after we do enough bitching about it then everyone will be pissed we don't have him.

Sorry for my rant, but some of this negativity gets to me some times. Right now the Sox aren't clicking on all cylinders and are doing pretty well. I think that's pretty encouraging. That's what championship teams do, they find ways to win even when they're not playing to well.

Just need to remember who said what. Since Koch is doing badly, those who would rather have Foulke last year are ratching up. If Koch turns the corner those who wanted him over Foulke will start chirping. Two different sets of posters but the performance on the field will dictate who is posting what and general ebe of the board.

maurice
04-23-2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Just need to remember who said what . . . . Two different sets of posters but the performance on the field will dictate who is posting what and general ebe of the board.

Agreed. There's been a pretty large group of posters who consistently favor Foulke over Koch. We just aren't as adamant as the Koch-lovers (no pun intended). :D:

The anti-Koch posts will disappear once he strings together half-a-dozen outings without giving up an ER, then re-appear the very next time he blows a save. Such is the life of a major-league closer, even good ones like Koch and Foulke.

doublem23
04-23-2003, 01:20 PM
I like Baseball Prospectus's take on Billy...

from Baseball Prospectus 2003, page 172
Rule of Commerce: Stock up on inexpensive goods that others overvalue. In the case of the A's, it's saves. Run Isrighausen's saves up, let him move along and become someone else's financial problem-we'll take the compensation. Run Billy Koch's saves up, and send him to an organization that can't even identify its own good relievers for Keith Foulke, Joe Valentine, and a patient catcher with some upside. It's a good plan, and as long as some GMs pay more attention to baseball's arcane accounting system than performance, someone will always overpay for a "proven closer."