PDA

View Full Version : Loaiza is really good.


cheeses_h_rice
04-22-2003, 07:13 PM
That's all. I just felt it deserved to be said.

What a great offseason acquisition...takes the sting offa Jon "Marshmallow" Garland's 2003 season thus far....

SoxxoS
04-22-2003, 07:28 PM
I think Marshmellow is a really fitting nickname. That should stick.

Or filet mignon, because all his pitches are center cut.

Fridaythe13thJason
04-22-2003, 07:32 PM
Buck Martinez, who I guess is an Oriole's announcer these days, said that he leads the Major Leagues in opponents batting average. Wow.

Iguana775
04-22-2003, 08:17 PM
he has an ERA of about .91 or something like that. I have to say that this was the best damn offseason signing KW has ever done.

Daver
04-22-2003, 08:21 PM
I happen to have a friend that lives in Toronto (he's a hunting guide by trade) that tapes most of the Jays games,he sent me some tapes of Loaiza's game in Toronto,I don't know if it is something he has done or something Cooper has done,but he is completely different on the mound now than he was in Toronto.

Whether or not he can keep this up is beyond me,but he has the best mechanics of all the Sox starters right now.

delben91
04-22-2003, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by daver
I happen to have a friend that lives in Toronto (he's a hunting guide by trade) that tapes most of the Jays games,he sent me some tapes of Loaiza's game in Toronto,I don't know if it is something he has done or something Cooper has done,but he is completely different on the mound now than he was in Toronto.

Whether or not he can keep this up is beyond me,but he has the best mechanics of all the Sox starters right now.

Well, he wasn't very good in Toronto, so whatever he changed, and whoever had him change it, I say good for them!

Keep it going Esteban!

thecell
04-22-2003, 08:37 PM
He did start out the '01 season 6-0. He also said that this is the healthiest he has been in quite some time. That may have something to with it too. Keep it up Esteban!

StepsInSC
04-22-2003, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by delben91
Well, he wasn't very good in Toronto, so whatever he changed, and whoever had him change it, I say good for them!

Keep it going Esteban!

Esteban needs to give Garland lots of hugs too so maybe it will rub off on him.

ShoelessFred
04-22-2003, 08:41 PM
isn't it amazing what you can do when you throw strikes? maybe we should let the rest of the team in on this secret.

voodoochile
04-22-2003, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by ShoelessFred
isn't it amazing what you can do when you throw strikes? maybe we should let the rest of the team in on this secret.

Maybe just Garland. The rest of the pitchers haven't been that bad...

Iguana775
04-22-2003, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by ShoelessFred
isn't it amazing what you can do when you throw strikes? maybe we should let the rest of the team in on this secret.

what are you talking about? Garland throws strikes....right down the middle of the plate.

siugrad25
04-22-2003, 09:28 PM
I don't care if he's a great April pitcher or a June pitcher or October pitcher, I'm just happy that two out of our three pitcher acquisitions are doing well. I had a good feeling about Esteban from the start, and if we get 12-15 wins from him, we're in excellent shape. Now if we can somehow jump start Garland or get Wright back from injury.

MHOUSE
04-22-2003, 09:32 PM
I think Wright is our best bet over Garland. Loaiza has been lights out against everyone. It's great to have a veteran guy picking up the rotation and keeping our guys clicking. Maybe it's a change of scenery or mechanics, but whatever it is keep it up! Being healthy might be a big part of it.

Saracen
04-22-2003, 09:33 PM
Don't know what Esteban's doing different now, maybe changing speeds a lot better, but his problem here in Texas was he threw way too many strikes. Straight down the middle of the plate. He was also an absolute dog in the clubhouse and refused to do any extra work. Yeah he was always "injured" but he refused to go above and beyond to rehab the injuries.

I sure hope this isn't just a fluke.

Randar68
04-22-2003, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
I think Wright is our best bet over Garland. Loaiza has been lights out against everyone. It's great to have a veteran guy picking up the rotation and keeping our guys clicking. Maybe it's a change of scenery or mechanics, but whatever it is keep it up! Being healthy might be a big part of it.

I don't know if they changed any of his mechanics (they being Coop), but they are making him throw his changeup a lot more and are drilling it into his head that he has to throw it 10-15 times a game to keep guys off his fastball. Seems to be working so far. BTW, who the heck is the pitching coach in Toronto that couldn't get him to throw his change-up, because it at worst a ML average pitch for him.

And in addition, he is spotting his fastball on both sides of the plate.

Daver
04-22-2003, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I don't know if they changed any of his mechanics (they being Coop), but they are making him throw his changeup a lot more and are drilling it into his head that he has to throw it 10-15 times a game to keep guys off his fastball. Seems to be working so far. BTW, who the heck is the pitching coach in Toronto that couldn't get him to throw his change-up, because it at worst a ML average pitch for him.

And in addition, he is spotting his fastball on both sides of the plate.

Randar,I have the tape,he is keeping everything down in the zone,in the past he was always up with everything.

I don't know if Cooper found this or if Loaiza did it on his own though.

At this point it doesn't matter,just keep doing it.

:redneck

jeremyb1
04-22-2003, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by Iguana775
what are you talking about? Garland throws strikes....right down the middle of the plate.

i really just don't understand why what should be a positive thread praising loaiza's fast start has to include 5 or 6 different posts bashing garland.

maybe i'm being naive but i really just can't comprehend spending all of ones time bashing garland or manuel or koch or whomever it is that you think is making mistakes. there have definately players on this club (greg norton for one) who i have not been a fan of but i always try to be supportive. you can discuss the fact that garland isn't pitching well but i don't see why it belongs in this thread in addition to the 8 others that are devoted to that subject and i don't see why people have to resort to name calling as though we're all junior high kids here.

baggio202
04-22-2003, 10:42 PM
loaiza has always been real good in april..if next month this time he is still winning ( i wont say pitching like he is now because that's impossible , he is so locked in right now) then ill really start to get excited..

loaiza , as someone else mentions, has in the past been his own worst enemy..one thing ive seen over the years , and this goes for jimenez too , when a guy who has the kind of reps these guys have if they are playing well everything is ok..the problems starts with a few bad games or a few bad starts...so once loaiza and jimenez slump then we will see if that matured or not...how they bounce back from a little adversity will tell me if they have taken their game to the next level..

we only have to look back to last year to see what can happen to a guy with a questionable attitude who starts off hot and then slumps and instead of fighting his way out of it sulks like a baby...anyone remember kenny lofton???

im really hoping these two guys havbe turned the corner..it probably means the differencve between golf or baseball in october

jeremyb1
04-22-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
loaiza has always been real good in april..if next month this time he is still winning ( i wont say pitching like he is now because that's impossible , he is so locked in right now) then ill really start to get excited..

loaiza , as someone else mentions, has in the past been his own worst enemy..one thing ive seen over the years , and this goes for jimenez too , when a guy who has the kind of reps these guys have if they are playing well everything is ok..the problems starts with a few bad games or a few bad starts...so once loaiza and jimenez slump then we will see if that matured or not...how they bounce back from a little adversity will tell me if they have taken their game to the next level..

we only have to look back to last year to see what can happen to a guy with a questionable attitude who starts off hot and then slumps and instead of fighting his way out of it sulks like a baby...anyone remember kenny lofton???

im really hoping these two guys havbe turned the corner..it probably means the differencve between golf or baseball in october

i'm glad you said that baggs. those are really important points. i don't even look at it in terms of attitude necessarily but at least for a guy like loaiza there must be reasons he's 31 and has never pitched this well before. i tend to give jimenez the benefit of the doubt more because he's still quite young.

Randar68
04-22-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by baggio202


I don't know if Jimenez will be bad, so to speak, at the plate. He takes so many pitches and works the count, I think it is reasonable to expect him to keep up a very good OBP. However, lazy and and chicken-sheet throws like the one to firsy today might drive me nuts.



Daver, now that you mention it, his fastball was low in the zone all day today and still had good movement. That low cutter to the righties was un-freaking-hittable.

voodoochile
04-22-2003, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i really just don't understand why what should be a positive thread praising loaiza's fast start has to include 5 or 6 different posts bashing garland.

maybe i'm being naive but i really just can't comprehend spending all of ones time bashing garland or manuel or koch or whomever it is that you think is making mistakes. there have definately players on this club (greg norton for one) who i have not been a fan of but i always try to be supportive. you can discuss the fact that garland isn't pitching well but i don't see why it belongs in this thread in addition to the 8 others that are devoted to that subject and i don't see why people have to resort to name calling as though we're all junior high kids here.

Well, gee, maybe it has something to do with the fact that Garland has been stunk the joint up yesterday and Manuel has a habit of making decisions and then going back on them. Remember the SS platoon? I didin't like it, but he said it and then reneged on it the next game. Remember our new CF Rios? Why wasn't he playing tonight against a RH starter. Especially with Rowand failing to hit his weight.

What made you the person to determine what people say where and when? People have a right to bash whomever they want wherever they want, period - so long as they keep it about the team and not the other posters.

fuzzy_patters
04-22-2003, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I don't know if Jimenez will be bad, so to speak, at the plate. He takes so many pitches and works the count, I think it is reasonable to expect him to keep up a very good OBP. However, lazy and and chicken-sheet throws like the one to firsy today might drive me nuts.



Daver, now that you mention it, his fastball was low in the zone all day today and still had good movement. That low cutter to the righties was un-freaking-hittable.

The Jimenez throw to first was crap. He is lucky the extra runner didn't come back to haunt us. That's the kind of crap that could keep up out of the playoffs.

voodoochile
04-22-2003, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I don't know if Jimenez will be bad, so to speak, at the plate. He takes so many pitches and works the count, I think it is reasonable to expect him to keep up a very good OBP. However, lazy and and chicken-sheet throws like the one to firsy today might drive me nuts.



Daver, now that you mention it, his fastball was low in the zone all day today and still had good movement. That low cutter to the righties was un-freaking-hittable.

Yeah, that throw was crappy, but it actually did nip Surhoff in the replays, though it was a bang-bang play, so it is hard to blame the ump. I liked the way he responded later when he bobbled the ball and still got the out at first. He was clearly upset with himself for dropping it in the first place. If he didn't care, it would be a different matter.

Is it Loaiza's changeup that has all that sink? Couple of guys missed pitches by 2 feet at least...

Daver
04-22-2003, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Is it Loaiza's changeup that has all that sink? Couple of guys missed pitches by 2 feet at least...

Nope,that was a cut fastball,he sets it up with that change.

maurice
04-23-2003, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
BTW, who the heck is the pitching coach in Toronto that couldn't get him to throw his change-up, because it at worst a ML average pitch for him.

The change-up is the most under-utilized pitch in baseball, at all levels. I don't know who the pitching coach in Toronto was, but Koch also criticized the staff there recently. Koch said he struggled with his mechanics in Toronto, because they had him throwing side-arm.

Foulke You
04-23-2003, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by maurice
The change-up is the most under-utilized pitch in baseball, at all levels. I don't know who the pitching coach in Toronto was, but Koch also criticized the staff there recently. Koch said he struggled with his mechanics in Toronto, because they had him throwing side-arm.

:nardi
"I gave the Toronto organization my notes on putting your labrum into pitches!"

jeremyb1
04-23-2003, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Well, gee, maybe it has something to do with the fact that Garland has been stunk the joint up yesterday and Manuel has a habit of making decisions and then going back on them. Remember the SS platoon? I didin't like it, but he said it and then reneged on it the next game. Remember our new CF Rios? Why wasn't he playing tonight against a RH starter. Especially with Rowand failing to hit his weight.

What made you the person to determine what people say where and when? People have a right to bash whomever they want wherever they want, period - so long as they keep it about the team and not the other posters.

first of all, anyone can say whatever they want. lets not make it about that because i think its abundantly clear that i was disagreeing not telling anyone they don't have a right to complain.

that said, i just dislike the wishy washy nature of some baseball fans. today garland is being called "marshmellow" but if he pitches a no hitter next week everyone will be bragging to their friends that are cubs fans about what a good young starter garland is and how the sox won last night. i think that's shameless.

either jon garland is a sox player and you like and respect him and therefore take joy in his good performances when the team wins or you simply dislike him think he should be moved at all costs and do not like him under any circumstances.

just because someone is frustrated with garland you don't berate him, call him names, and boo him at the game and then jump on the bandwagon again when he's pitching better. that's completely spineless and two faced. i have no reason to believe he's not giving his best out there so i don't think its fair to talk all kinds of trash about one of your own players just because he's struggling.

lets just remember that he's had three poor starts and one good one and still has nearly 30 games left to pitch assuming he stays in the rotation. if you want to abandon him fine but at least keep your word. sit there and eat crow like a man in the event that he turns it around for us or another team. that means don't call him "marshmellow" today and then talk about how bad a gm kw is if he trades him and garland then bounces back like everyone did with kip wells.

again, anyone has the right to say whatever they want but i'd certainly respect posters a lot more if they were consistent.

fuzzy_patters
04-23-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
first of all, anyone can say whatever they want. lets not make it about that because i think its abundantly clear that i was disagreeing not telling anyone they don't have a right to complain.

that said, i just dislike the wishy washy nature of some baseball fans. today garland is being called "marshmellow" but if he pitches a no hitter next week everyone will be bragging to their friends that are cubs fans about what a good young starter garland is and how the sox won last night. i think that's shameless.

either jon garland is a sox player and you like and respect him and therefore take joy in his good performances when the team wins or you simply dislike him think he should be moved at all costs and do not like him under any circumstances.

just because someone is frustrated with garland you don't berate him, call him names, and boo him at the game and then jump on the bandwagon again when he's pitching better. that's completely spineless and two faced. i have no reason to believe he's not giving his best out there so i don't think its fair to talk all kinds of trash about one of your own players just because he's struggling.

lets just remember that he's had three poor starts and one good one and still has nearly 30 games left to pitch assuming he stays in the rotation. if you want to abandon him fine but at least keep your word. sit there and eat crow like a man in the event that he turns it around for us or another team. that means don't call him "marshmellow" today and then talk about how bad a gm kw is if he trades him and garland then bounces back like everyone did with kip wells.

again, anyone has the right to say whatever they want but i'd certainly respect posters a lot more if they were consistent.

I agree totally. It's one thing to hate the player, and quite another thing to hate the way the player is performing. Some posters seem to cross that line and hold vendettas against the players.

I'm pissed at Garland, too, but I still hope he turns it around. I would love to see the Sox send him to the bullpen if he doesn't pitch better in his next start, but I don't hold it personally against him.

Josh Paul is a prime example. One week, two years ago, he got thrown out at third base twice. I think many people still haven't forgiven him. A lot of people on here have a trade at all costs mentality about Josh. It doesn't make much sense. Here is a guy who is a .250-.260 hitter, is average defensively, has good speed, and can play catcher, third, and outfield. That sounds like the perfect third catcher/utility player if you ask me. However, some people have turned hatred for his actions two years ago into a vendetta against him. It's not like he has made running the team out of innings a habit. I really can't understand some people.

jeremyb1
04-23-2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
I agree totally. It's one thing to hate the player, and quite another thing to hate the way the player is performing. Some posters seem to cross that line and hold vendettas against the players.

I'm pissed at Garland, too, but I still hope he turns it around. I would love to see the Sox send him to the bullpen if he doesn't pitch better in his next start, but I don't hold it personally against him.

Josh Paul is a prime example. One week, two years ago, he got thrown out at third base twice. I think many people still haven't forgiven him. A lot of people on here have a trade at all costs mentality about Josh. It doesn't make much sense. Here is a guy who is a .250-.260 hitter, is average defensively, has good speed, and can play catcher, third, and outfield. That sounds like the perfect third catcher/utility player if you ask me. However, some people have turned hatred for his actions two years ago into a vendetta against him. It's not like he has made running the team out of innings a habit. I really can't understand some people.

exactly. i'm not a huge josh paul fan because i don't think he throws baserunners out well enough, doesn't walk, and is too streaky a hitter but i certainly don't dislike him as a person and if he suddenly become a great hitter, i'm not going to suddenly jump on the josh paul bandwagon and act as though he's my favorite player and i thought he'd be great all along.

gosox41
04-23-2003, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
I agree totally. It's one thing to hate the player, and quite another thing to hate the way the player is performing. Some posters seem to cross that line and hold vendettas against the players.

I'm pissed at Garland, too, but I still hope he turns it around. I would love to see the Sox send him to the bullpen if he doesn't pitch better in his next start, but I don't hold it personally against him.

Josh Paul is a prime example. One week, two years ago, he got thrown out at third base twice. I think many people still haven't forgiven him. A lot of people on here have a trade at all costs mentality about Josh. It doesn't make much sense. Here is a guy who is a .250-.260 hitter, is average defensively, has good speed, and can play catcher, third, and outfield. That sounds like the perfect third catcher/utility player if you ask me. However, some people have turned hatred for his actions two years ago into a vendetta against him. It's not like he has made running the team out of innings a habit. I really can't understand some people.


I don't dislike any of the Sox players as people . But Jon Garland is frustrating. AS for Josh Paul, he sucks as a baseball player IMHO. He is below average defensively and would be lucky to hit .250 in a good year. I wouldn't trust him at 3B and would love to call up antoher OF instead of relying on him out there.

Bob

Randar68
04-23-2003, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
Josh Paul is a prime example. One week, two years ago, he got thrown out at third base twice. I think many people still haven't forgiven him. A lot of people on here have a trade at all costs mentality about Josh. It doesn't make much sense. Here is a guy who is a .250-.260 hitter, is average defensively, has good speed, and can play catcher, third, and outfield. That sounds like the perfect third catcher/utility player if you ask me. However, some people have turned hatred for his actions two years ago into a vendetta against him. It's not like he has made running the team out of innings a habit. I really can't understand some people.


OK. First, Josh is a Sox fan through and through, and I don't think anyone on here really hates him as a person (Royce Clayton was another case). However, Josh Paul is not even close to an everage defensive catcher or game-caller. In addition, he hits .250 with no plate discipline or power. If Josh Paul ever played a whole season at 3rd base, he'd have about 150 errors and break every record in the book. On top of that, he has no instincts on the basepaths (this goes beyond the Seattle fiasco).

To even suggest Josh Paul is deserving of a roster spot in the major leagues on any team trying to finish in the top half of their division is completely assinine, and I would guess every GM and scout in the majors would agree with me on that.

Josh ranks up there with Aaron Rowand as players who are great guys and play balls out, but they are nowhere near major league average players.

Do you think these 2 could walk 1 time for every 4 times they strike out? I would put money against it.

It's a logical arguement against these guys, but people on this board ignore all tha facts in spite of the obvious, because they choose to blindly support every player to wear the Sox uniform. These arguements get to the point of personal attacks from everyone, and by the time it gets back to the actual players, people are so pissed, they take it out on them through this forum...

JMHO

Steve Bartman
08-08-2003, 12:48 PM
If it's game 7 of the world series, and we had to send our best pitcher to the mound, who would you want it to be? I personally would want Colon, because he has pitched in the big game before with the Indians.