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hose
04-22-2003, 06:22 AM
After reading this in the Trib this morning Garland looks to be on the clock. :


The 23-year-old right-hander has flopped as the team's third starter, going 0-2 with a 7.32 ERA. Manuel said the organization and coaching staff will "sit down and see [what] options we have."

Garland figures to remain in the rotation for his next start, Saturday against the Twins at U.S. Cellular Field. But an April 28 off day would allow the Sox to skip Garland's turn and buy time for right-hander Dan Wright to build up his arm strength.

Wright, recovering from a right elbow strain, threw three hitless innings Thursday for Triple-A Charlotte in his first minor-league rehab start.

"When you get him, you want him completely ready to throw close to 100 pitches," Manuel said of Wright.

Garland hasn't thrown 100 pitches in any of his four starts, but arm strength is not the issue. Effectiveness is. And Garland knows it.

"I haven't been up and down," he said in response to a question along those lines. "I've had one good [start] out of four. That's not good."

LuvSox
04-22-2003, 06:36 AM
Originally posted by hose
The 23-year-old right-hander has flopped as the team's third starter, going 0-2 with a 7.32 ERA. Manuel said the organization and coaching staff will "sit down and see [what] options we have."


Take your time Jerry, you have all the time in the world.

Iguana775
04-22-2003, 08:22 AM
any chance we can trade him to Montreal for that other pitcher they have?

TheBigHurt
04-22-2003, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Iguana775
any chance we can trade him to Montreal for that other pitcher they have?

TOMO Ohka, Javier Vazquez, Tony Armas, El Duque, or Livan Hernadez????????

MHOUSE
04-22-2003, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by TheBigHurt
TOMO Ohka, Javier Vazquez, Tony Armas, El Duque, or Livan Hernadez????????

Those would all be nice additions. How about Rocky Biddle?

TheBigHurt
04-22-2003, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Those would all be nice additions. How about Rocky Biddle?

YES I would take Biddle back anyday and the Expos diffently have solid pitching all around......BUT since we were talking about starting pitching thats why i didnt say Biddle

BE GOOD

MHOUSE
04-22-2003, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by TheBigHurt
YES I would take Biddle back anyday and the Expos diffently have solid pitching all around......BUT since we were talking about starting pitching thats why i didnt say Biddle

BE GOOD

Makes sense 'Hurt. I would rather have Rocky than White at the moment. Maybe he'll prove me wrong.

Risk
04-22-2003, 10:06 AM
As this season has gone, Garland really has been a collasal disappointment as the 3rd starter. The only thing is that I don't think his early season struggles warrant messing with the rotation since I think that it is best that Loiaza stay as the 4th and Stewart stay as the 5th starter. And as much as I hate to admit, I really have never been sold on Wright and I think that we should keep Rauch down at Charlotte until at least after the All-Star Break so that he can develop more confidence and maturity to better prepare him for the bigs.

Later,

Risk

voodoochile
04-22-2003, 10:40 AM
Well, I think it's good news that Garland is owning up to his failures, but that is the only good news on his part. I wonder if this day/night thing that someone pointed out in another thread has anything to do with it. He's at an age where staying up late is very common - especially when you work once/twice a week and don't have to be at work until 5:00 or so most days. Not excusing it, merely pointing it out. If that is the case, then he needs a wake up call. Maybe he read Boomer's biography and thinks drinking until 4AM every night is the way to be an effective pitcher...

It was obvious he wasn't happy with his performance yesterday. You could see he was upset after giving up the 1st inning HR. But again, anger and disappointment are NOT enough. He has to find a way to get over the hump and become consistently effective. If he cannot turn the corner and have a couple of good outings in a row before Wright returns, then he should go to the bullpen (time to dump Josh Paul anyway) until he can get his act together. Right now, he may be trade bait come mid-summer, but that will depend on Stewart and Rauch and what is available in trade. Someone will take a flyer on a kid with a live arm who is 23, hopefully.

His time is definitely NOW to show he can pitch at this level...

Mammoo
04-22-2003, 10:46 AM
It's obvious that JG has evoked much emotion from the group. How about someone combining the threads that have been started???

Just a thought...

Rocky Soprano
04-22-2003, 11:09 AM
I like Garland and it pisses me off but also saddens me to see him struggling.

I dont know what it is with him. He cant use the excuse that he is young. I think its all in his head, he needs to tell himself that he can do it and just go out there and pitch like he knows he cans. I think hes the type that makes a small error and lets that just kill him. He needs to learn how to bounce back and say if I didnt get him, then Ill get the next.

Come on Garland, its time to get it together!

fuzzy_patters
04-22-2003, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Risk
As this season has gone, Garland really has been a collasal disappointment as the 3rd starter. The only thing is that I don't think his early season struggles warrant messing with the rotation since I think that it is best that Loiaza stay as the 4th and Stewart stay as the 5th starter. And as much as I hate to admit, I really have never been sold on Wright and I think that we should keep Rauch down at Charlotte until at least after the All-Star Break so that he can develop more confidence and maturity to better prepare him for the bigs.

Later,

Risk

Why don't you like Wright? He has proven that he has the will to improve. He was a terrible college pitcher, but he made it to the big leagues. Don't you think he will work just as hard to be a good big league pitcher?

I would much rather have a guy with a track record of improvement than have Garland. Garland is in his fourth season, and he seems to be running in place.

Iguana775
04-22-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by TheBigHurt
TOMO Ohka, Javier Vazquez, Tony Armas, El Duque, or Livan Hernadez????????

Vazquez. isnt he the other pitcher people were trying to get this offseason along with Colon?

TheBigHurt
04-22-2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Iguana775
Vazquez. isnt he the other pitcher people were trying to get this offseason along with Colon? \

IM not to sure but its one hell of a staff........

BE GOOD

joecrede
04-22-2003, 04:25 PM
I'm not so sure that I wouldn't take Garland ahead of Buehrle from this point in their careers onward.

voodoochile
04-22-2003, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I'm not so sure that I wouldn't take Garland ahead of Buehrle from this point in their careers onward.

Your what hurts? Was this supposed to be in teal?

hold2dibber
04-22-2003, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I'm not so sure that I wouldn't take Garland ahead of Buehrle from this point in their careers onward.

(1) Why?

(2) Who would you take for this year?

SuperGrover
04-22-2003, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Those would all be nice additions. How about Rocky Biddle?

Biddle's ERA is 6.30 and his WHIP is 1.60. He's walked 8 in 10 IP. I don't think he's the guy we need back on the staff.

Now, Kip Wells on the other hand...

ChiSoxBobette
04-23-2003, 10:55 AM
Last year Iwas all over Garland and said the guy just does'nt get it. This year I thought that maybe he would come out and prove a lot of us wrong that he just does'nt have the brains to pitch. I thought after the start where he did'nt get the win but pitched great he had turned himself around but after this last start everyone saw the same old stuff. I think Garlands next start Saturday vs the Twinkies will decide his fate if he pitches great and shuts them down I think he saves his spot and with Wright coming back soon we put Stewart in the bullpen or send him down if Garland gets lit up by a struggling Twinkie team I think the Sox are going to cut there loses and Garland could be sent down to AAA or worse outright released, especially with some of the young arms we have down in the minors, John Roush who has been pitching great lately. Garlands got a great arm but like I've said before he's also got to have a brain and even though hes got talent no brain means wasted talent. Maybe he'd be a better long reliever I don't know if we've ever tryed him at that.
Three years making the same mistakes we can't let that continue, he can't go out there every 3rd/4th day and lose or give us at least a chance to win if we're going to make a run at the playoffs.

Go White Sox

TheBigHurt
04-23-2003, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
I'm not so sure that I wouldn't take Garland ahead of Buehrle from this point in their careers onward.

COULD you put that in simple terms :)

BE GOOD

doublem23
04-23-2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by SuperGrover
Biddle's ERA is 6.30 and his WHIP is 1.60. He's walked 8 in 10 IP. I don't think he's the guy we need back on the staff.

Now, Kip Wells on the other hand...

... has walked 16 in 23 IP.

SuperGrover
04-23-2003, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
... has walked 16 in 23 IP.

While holding opponents to 0.181 AVG and 0.301 SLG resulting in an ERA of 3.13 and a WHIP of 1.35.

Maybe you should put the whole sstat line out there next time?

joecrede
04-23-2003, 09:07 PM
My Garland over Buehrle thoughts aren't so much a ringing endorsement for Garland as they are showing real concern for Buehrle. Buehrle's is not striking batters out at the rate he did two or three years ago, not a very good sign for a 24-year-old. Add to that his control not being as sharp as it was and that evidence that his velocity is down to 85-86 mph fom 87-88 mph and I'm thinking Buehrle might be having some problems with his arm

Daver
04-23-2003, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
My Garland over Buehrle thoughts aren't so much a ringing endorsement for Garland as they are showing real concern for Buehrle. Buehrle's is not striking batters out at the rate he did two or three years ago, not a very good sign for a 24-year-old. Add to that his control not being as sharp as it was and that evidence that his velocity is down to 85-86 mph fom 87-88 mph and I'm thinking Buehrle might be having some problems with his arm

Give me a shout when Garland comes even close to winning twenty games.

And quit relying on the radar gun.

kermittheefrog
04-23-2003, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by daver
And quit relying on the radar gun.

It's true that Buehrle's velocity is dropping. I've been worried for a while. Are you going to tell us that's a good sign?

Daver
04-23-2003, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
It's true that Buehrle's velocity is dropping. I've been worried for a while. Are you going to tell us that's a good sign?

No I am telling you that the Radar gun is a lousy way to evaluate pitchers.

Base it on mechanics and performance,all you get from a gun is numbers,and numbers have been proven to lie.

joecrede
04-23-2003, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by daver
No I am telling you that the Radar gun is a lousy way to evaluate pitchers.

It's not being used to evaluate Buehrle's performance, just the health of his arm. Why has he lost velocity?

Base it on mechanics and performance,all you get from a gun is numbers,and numbers have been proven to lie.

The gun numbers on Parque were 80-82 MPH and he was getting hammered. The gun didn't lie in that instance.

Daver
04-23-2003, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by joecrede




The gun numbers on Parque were 80-82 MPH and he was getting hammered. The gun didn't lie in that instance.

Did the gun lie,or did his true ability as a pitcher shine through?

The radar gun should be banned from baseball.

joecrede
04-23-2003, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by daver
Did the gun lie,or did his true ability as a pitcher shine through?

The radar gun should be banned from baseball.

Parque threw in the high 80's and touched 90 when he first came up. No non-knuckleball pitcher can survive topping out at 82.

Daver
04-23-2003, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Parque threw in the high 80's and touched 90 when he first came up. No non-knuckleball pitcher can survive topping out at 82.

Jamie Moyer and Ryan Kohlmeier,right off the top of my head.


Learn to pitch,bottom line.


Lose the radar gun,it is a crutch,not an answer.

joecrede
04-23-2003, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by daver
Jamie Moyer and Ryan Kohlmeier,right off the top of my head.

Ryan Kohlmeier as a pitcher who has survived?

I think Moyer throws harder than 80-82. That's really besides the point. It's a fact that Buehrle has lost velocity. I want to know the reason why, that's all.

Daver
04-23-2003, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by joecrede


I think Moyer throws harder than 80-82. That's really besides the point. It's a fact that Buehrle has lost velocity. I want to know the reason why, that's all.

Ask the gun.

Seriously.


I happen to know a few members of the law enforcement trade,and we have used the guns mounted in their cars that clock trees moving at 80 MPH,if you are basing anything on a gun reading you are getting a false number.

I have not seen a drop in velocity in Mark,but I have seen him that he has changed his location,and his approach,address this first before anything else.

MHOUSE
04-23-2003, 11:04 PM
How did we go from Jon Garland to the radar gun? Whoa! What's goin' on? Whoa!

In any event, I think Daver has a point. The gun is all over the place usually and you can't say a guy can pitch because he can throw 100 mph. He still has to place it and have some movement. An obvious drop from like 95-85 is big, but if you're complaining from 88-86 then you don't have a case.