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View Full Version : what's going to happen with koch?


jeremyb1
04-21-2003, 04:54 PM
koch has given up 7 runs in his last two and a third innings. i'm not sure exactly when its time to worry. i don't know if he merely has a mechanical problem that can be straightened out relatively easily or what. my thoughts right now are that after having our starters get hammered two games in a row, we can't afford to have loaiza pitch well tommorow and then watch koch blow the game.

jlh221fan
04-21-2003, 05:04 PM
Another Koch blown save in the next week or two would be disastrous, unless the Sox can win in extras. Hopefully, they'll have multiple-run leads late and there's some margin for error.

SoxxoS
04-21-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by jlh221fan
Another Koch blown save in the next week or two would be disastrous, unless the Sox can win in extras. Hopefully, they'll have multiple-run leads late and there's some margin for error.

That's sad we have to even say that about the reigning Rolaids relief man of the yar.

hose
04-21-2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
koch has given up 7 runs in his last two and a third innings. i'm not sure exactly when its time to worry. i don't know if he merely has a mechanical problem that can be straightened out relatively easily or what. my thoughts right now are that after having our starters get hammered two games in a row, we can't afford to have loaiza pitch well tommorow and then watch koch blow the game.


Coop has been working with Koch on his delivery. Koch has lost some mph on his fastball because of his mechanics.

The way Cooper described it as a boxer throwing a looping roundhouse instead of a quick straight punch.

We can't go through another season like last year with Foulke. I think the present staff has some decent options if Koch can't get it done.

Wells-Ritchie-...Koch? I hope not.

StepsInSC
04-21-2003, 05:27 PM
Nothing should happen. He's still nowhere near the realm of Armando Benitez-ish, and he should be left alone.

The closing role should be the last of this team's worries at this point.

pudge
04-21-2003, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
Nothing should happen. He's still nowhere near the realm of Armando Benitez-ish, and he should be left alone.

The closing role should be the last of this team's worries at this point.

True, a starting replacement for Garland would be a good idea first, but I don't think we should stand by and watch Koch suck without replacing him if he doesn't get his sh#t together.

TheBigHurt
04-21-2003, 05:30 PM
I am confident and not worry Koch will be fine, but i am worried what will happen if he continues to struggle

BE GOOD

hose
04-21-2003, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by TheBigHurt
I am confident and not worry Koch will be fine, but i am worried what will happen if he continues to struggle

BE GOOD


ROFLOL

Either you is or you isn't ....which one is it. :smile:

jeremyb1
04-21-2003, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by pudge
True, a starting replacement for Garland would be a good idea first, but I don't think we should stand by and watch Koch suck without replacing him if he doesn't get his sh#t together.

i absolutely disagree. garland pitches once every five games. he's pitched well enough to win in one of those and you could argue that with our offense we still had a good chance to win at least 2 of the 3 remaining games. koch is going to be pitching in every close game. he has the ability to lose every single close game for us. even if garland is and continues to be as bad as some are acting he is, he doesn't have the potential to hurt us like koch does.

THE_HOOTER
04-21-2003, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by hose
Coop has been working with Koch on his delivery. Koch has lost some mph on his fastball because of his mechanics.

The way Cooper described it as a boxer throwing a looping roundhouse instead of a quick straight punch.

We can't go through another season like last year with Foulke. I think the present staff has some decent options if Koch can't get it done.

Wells-Ritchie-...Koch? I hope not.


Foulke blew 3 saves last year by Memorial day!!!!!!!!!! Koch has blown two saves by mid April!

At the end of last year, Foulke allowed 1 earned run in his last 24 appearances!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And you are glad we dont have that right?

Please get off the "Koch is OK" soapbox-- he looks horrible and without a dependable closer, the Sox go nowhere fast.

If he closes a few games in a row I say it was mechanics or whatever excuse fits.

If he blows his next save situation and they lose, I put Marte in as closer, Wunsch takes Marte's spot with Gordon setting up, and White, Glover and Danny Wright shoring up middle relief.

If Garland does not improve over his next few starts, or Stewart stumbles, switch Wright into the rotation.

Koch can clean the jock straps, the toilets, and pitch when we are up 15-0.

Shave that stupid clump of hair too. It looks real silly when you give up dinger after dinger.

kermittheefrog
04-21-2003, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
Foulke blew 3 saves last year by Memorial day!!!!!!!!!! Koch has blown two saves by mid April!

At the end of last year, Foulke allowed 1 earned run in his last 24 appearances!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And you are glad we dont have that right?

Please get off the "Koch is OK" soapbox-- he looks horrible and without a dependable closer, the Sox go nowhere fast.

If he closes a few games in a row I say it was mechanics or whatever excuse fits.

If he blows his next save situation and they lose, I put Marte in as closer, Wunsch takes Marte's spot with Gordon setting up, and White, Glover and Danny Wright shoring up middle relief.

If Garland does not improve over his next few starts, or Stewart stumbles, switch Wright into the rotation.

Koch can clean the jock straps, the toilets, and pitch when we are up 15-0.

Shave that stupid clump of hair too. It looks real silly when you give up dinger after dinger.

Koch throws hard and looks tough so he's a better bet to pitch well than Foulke who has the better track record of pitching well.

ScottyTheSoxFan
04-21-2003, 06:36 PM
we dont need a dependable closer...


just look at how well boston's bullpen is with out their closer

Dadawg_77
04-21-2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by ScottyTheSoxFan
we dont need a dependable closer...


just look at how well boston's bullpen is with out their closer

The problem is Boston bullpen was horrible for week or so. Now that they are back a little the Red Sox are on a winning streak.

hold2dibber
04-21-2003, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i absolutely disagree. garland pitches once every five games. he's pitched well enough to win in one of those and you could argue that with our offense we still had a good chance to win at least 2 of the 3 remaining games. koch is going to be pitching in every close game. he has the ability to lose every single close game for us. even if garland is and continues to be as bad as some are acting he is, he doesn't have the potential to hurt us like koch does.

I agree with your basic premise, but come on - you've got to admit that Garland has been atrocious. Here are the specifics from his four starts this year:

Game 1: 4.0 IP, 9 hits, 1 BB, 1 K, 5 ER
Game 2: 6.0 IP, 6 hits, 4 BB, 2 K, 5 ER
Game 3: 7.0 IP, 3 hits, 2 BB, 6 K, 1 ER
Game 4: 2.2 IP, 5 hits, 2 BB, 1 K, 5 ER

That's one really good game, one bad game, 2 absolutely horrible games. His ERA is nearly 7.50. I know he is young, but at some point he has to turn the corner. I remember this off season comparing Garland and Lohse with you. Lohse has come roaring out of the gates (4 starts, 25.2 IP, 18 Hs, 4 BB, 20 K, 3.86 ERA, 0.86 WHIP). And he's only 9 months older than Garland. He appears to have turned that corner. I'm not giving up on Garland by any stretch of the imagination, but just because you believe in the guy's long term prospects doesn't mean you should close your eyes to how lousy he's been so far this year. His inconsistency is extremely frustrating and the youth excuse is starting to wear a bit thin.

StepsInSC
04-21-2003, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
Foulke blew 3 saves last year by Memorial day!!!!!!!!!! Koch has blown two saves by mid April!

At the end of last year, Foulke allowed 1 earned run in his last 24 appearances!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And you are glad we dont have that right?

Please get off the "Koch is OK" soapbox-- he looks horrible and without a dependable closer, the Sox go nowhere fast.

If he closes a few games in a row I say it was mechanics or whatever excuse fits.

If he blows his next save situation and they lose, I put Marte in as closer, Wunsch takes Marte's spot with Gordon setting up, and White, Glover and Danny Wright shoring up middle relief.

If Garland does not improve over his next few starts, or Stewart stumbles, switch Wright into the rotation.

Koch can clean the jock straps, the toilets, and pitch when we are up 15-0.

Shave that stupid clump of hair too. It looks real silly when you give up dinger after dinger.

I know how you love to turn this argument into a Koch vs. Foulke argument every time...but the deal is done.

Anyways Koch will be fine. We dont need him being removed this early into the season blowing his confidence just like Foulke last year. Koch is a streaky closer. Last year in even months he had an ERA of 0.80, in odd months he had an ERA of 5.54 ERA. Regardless, he was a good closer for a very good team (a team much better than the Sox IMO) and I don't see the justification behind removing him, when he's proved over the past several years he's a good closer, and replacing him with someone who could be a good closer, but has limited experience in that role.

SoxxoS
04-21-2003, 07:28 PM
Take that "His 24 out of 34 Earned runs came against 2 teams (Rangers and Blue Jays) theory" and toss that right out.

hold2dibber
04-21-2003, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
I know how you love to turn this argument into a Koch vs. Foulke argument every time...but the deal is done.

Anyways Koch will be fine. We dont need him being removed this early into the season blowing his confidence just like Foulke last year. Koch is a streaky closer. Last year in even months he had an ERA of 0.80, in odd months he had an ERA of 5.54 ERA. Regardless, he was a good closer for a very good team (a team much better than the Sox IMO) and I don't see the justification behind removing him, when he's proved over the past several years he's a good closer, and replacing him with someone who could be a good closer, but has limited experience in that role.

Well said.

pudge
04-21-2003, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
I know how you love to turn this argument into a Koch vs. Foulke argument every time...but the deal is done.

Anyways Koch will be fine. We dont need him being removed this early into the season blowing his confidence just like Foulke last year. Koch is a streaky closer. Last year in even months he had an ERA of 0.80, in odd months he had an ERA of 5.54 ERA. Regardless, he was a good closer for a very good team (a team much better than the Sox IMO) and I don't see the justification behind removing him, when he's proved over the past several years he's a good closer, and replacing him with someone who could be a good closer, but has limited experience in that role.

The problem is, Koch has never been a good closer, people just think he has. Does a good closer have a career 3.59 ERA? Does a good closer only convert 27 of 40 one-run save opportunities?? The only reason Koch won the rolaids award was because of his 11 wins last year. And the reason he had 11 wins was because the A's pitched him a lot and let him stay in even after he'd blown a save. Take some great closers' career ERAs and compare them to Koch:
Hoffman, 2.79
Nen, 2.98
Rivera, 2.60
Percival, 2.98

I could on, but hmmmmm.... all a heck of a lot better than good ol' Billy.

pudge
04-21-2003, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i absolutely disagree. garland pitches once every five games. he's pitched well enough to win in one of those and you could argue that with our offense we still had a good chance to win at least 2 of the 3 remaining games. koch is going to be pitching in every close game. he has the ability to lose every single close game for us. even if garland is and continues to be as bad as some are acting he is, he doesn't have the potential to hurt us like koch does.

I agree a closer is involved in more games, but I just have more faith in Koch getting things figured out than Garland. Plus, we can't send Koch to the minors, but we can send Garland.

Ventura23Fan
04-21-2003, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
Foulke blew 3 saves last year by Memorial day!!!!!!!!!!

Foulke's second blown save came two days after Memorial Day last year.

StepsInSC
04-21-2003, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by pudge
The problem is, Koch has never been a good closer, people just think he has. Does a good closer have a career 3.59 ERA? Does a good closer only convert 27 of 40 one-run save opportunities?? The only reason Koch won the rolaids award was because of his 11 wins last year. And the reason he had 11 wins was because the A's pitched him a lot and let him stay in even after he'd blown a save. Take some great closers' career ERAs and compare them to Koch:
Hoffman, 2.79
Nen, 2.98
Rivera, 2.60
Percival, 2.98

I could on, but hmmmmm.... all a heck of a lot better than good ol' Billy.

You won't see me arguing for Koch's greatness anytime soon, but I still believe he's the best we've got at the position.

mack10zie
04-21-2003, 08:18 PM
All I know is that at this point I have very little confidence in Koch. I realize that my feelings don't matter a bit, but it's always nice to have a guy who you can go to up 1 in the 9th and feel real confident about. Hopefully he'll settle down and close out a couple close ones soon, but until he shows me that he can I'll be watching him with one eye shut.

MHOUSE
04-21-2003, 08:36 PM
Koch will come around. He looks absolutely awful now, but in the long run I think he will turn it on. If another one or two blown saves or a few low-pressure 2-run innings (like today) then maybe talk about giving up, but right now we can't shatter his confidence. Garland is Garland and until he pitches WELL enough to WIN for 4-5 starts in a row then I won't believe he can do it, he needs to prove himself THIS SEASON. Foulke is gone: deal with it. Who knew Koch would melt down this early? It's was a good trade just accept it. I do think he should shave that annoying little tuft or whatever. Either grow something or just let it go man. Maybe a change there would be good for him. Just a thought. He looks ridiculous getting shelled with that...thing.

Daver
04-21-2003, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
I do think he should shave that annoying little tuft or whatever. Either grow something or just let it go man. Maybe a change there would be good for him. Just a thought. He looks ridiculous getting shelled with that...thing.

Let me see if I understand this,you are equating his lack of success to bad facial hair?

The Sox lead the league in bad facial hair,but I don't see how it relates to pitching performance........

:)

MHOUSE
04-21-2003, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by daver
Let me see if I understand this,you are equating his lack of success to bad facial hair?

The Sox lead the league in bad facial hair,but I don't see how it relates to pitching performance........

:)

He had it when he was good and now he's bad. His tuft has worn out it's luck he needs to shave and grow a beard or maybe nothing. It's a new start. Like playoff beards in hockey for good luck. I dunno, it was just a suggestion. I don't like it at all.

jeremyb1
04-21-2003, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
That's one really good game, one bad game, 2 absolutely horrible games. His ERA is nearly 7.50. I know he is young, but at some point he has to turn the corner. I remember this off season comparing Garland and Lohse with you. Lohse has come roaring out of the gates (4 starts, 25.2 IP, 18 Hs, 4 BB, 20 K, 3.86 ERA, 0.86 WHIP). And he's only 9 months older than Garland. He appears to have turned that corner. I'm not giving up on Garland by any stretch of the imagination, but just because you believe in the guy's long term prospects doesn't mean you should close your eyes to how lousy he's been so far this year. His inconsistency is extremely frustrating and the youth excuse is starting to wear a bit thin.

i absolutely agree with you. i think its frustrating to everyone that follows the team. however, just because the youth excuse is in fact wearing thin i don't think that means much in terms of what we can do. what are you going to do, demote garland after four starts? that's pretty unheard of for a relatively established pitcher like him. you could trade him i guess but i don't think that's wise when his value is down. i also don't think four starts do much to tarnish his chances of becoming a dominant pitcher in the long term. its fine to be frustrated, i'm very frustrated but i don't think there's much you can do about it at this point.

baggio202
04-21-2003, 10:17 PM
koch to me looks like alan embree pitching in a mirror..ive never seen 2 guys with straighter fastballs in my life..no movement whatsoever...

if koch doesnt work out we could always do what we did last year...last year marte and osuna worked as dual closer very succesfully..we could do the same with gordon and marte this year..as the game plays itself out by the 7th inning jerry can look ahead and see where the lefty bats ur in the line up and will decide whether its gordon or marte for the 8th and the other for the 9th...or just go with a 2 inning save if the guy is going real good...

i know marte and gordon havent hit full stride yet but they are much closer than koch...who i think is about t o go on the DL...93 mph straight as an arrow fastballs just aint gonna cut it..something must be wrong with his arm..somedays he can barely break 90..thats like 8 or 9 mph under his best fastball...thats not mechanics..thats a problem

and if marte and gordon cant get it together well the season is screwed then anyways so who cares who closes

White_Sock
04-21-2003, 10:35 PM
Why have someone always at that position like Koch. All that Koch can do is throw really hard. A pitcher like Koch is going to give up a lot of hits and just hope that he faces enough batters that can not hit really fast balls. We should be using the best pitcher that is in the bullpen at any given time. At least Foulke's premire pitch wasn't a fastball. Even so, why don't the Sox just put in the pitcher who statistically matches a team best. If it has to be a different pitcher that closes a game every time than so be it. Why not even just leave a successful mid-reliever in to close things off. All in all, there's no reason why Koch should always be put in at the end of the game.

jeremyb1
04-21-2003, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
koch to me looks like alan embree pitching in a mirror..ive never seen 2 guys with straighter fastballs in my life..no movement whatsoever...

if koch doesnt work out we could always do what we did last year...last year marte and osuna worked as dual closer very succesfully..we could do the same with gordon and marte this year..as the game plays itself out by the 7th inning jerry can look ahead and see where the lefty bats ur in the line up and will decide whether its gordon or marte for the 8th and the other for the 9th...or just go with a 2 inning save if the guy is going real good...

i know marte and gordon havent hit full stride yet but they are much closer than koch...who i think is about t o go on the DL...93 mph straight as an arrow fastballs just aint gonna cut it..something must be wrong with his arm..somedays he can barely break 90..thats like 8 or 9 mph under his best fastball...thats not mechanics..thats a problem

and if marte and gordon cant get it together well the season is screwed then anyways so who cares who closes

if koch goes down i'd like to see glover in an expanded role, maybe even the closer's spot. also, i think it'd be worth considering putting wright in the pen if the rest of the rotation is sound.

MHOUSE
04-21-2003, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
if koch goes down i'd like to see glover in an expanded role, maybe even the closer's spot. also, i think it'd be worth considering putting wright in the pen if the rest of the rotation is sound.

Glover isn't a bad idea for a closer and maybe even Wunsch too :smile:

Not Wright! He needs to start and should take Garland's place when he's healthy. He's made ONE relief appearance in his career. Why suddenly is he tailor-made for the bullpen?

I think that each team should have a closer and the bullpen should have defined roles. One of our problems is Jerry throws guys in whenever and they never know if they're going to be in long relief or set-up or closing (like last year with the 3-ring circus). Whenever they interview bullpen guys they always say that they want to know their role so they can be better prepared mentally for their time in the game. Don't pick the 'best' reliever. Have a closer and Koch is our guy!

baggio202
04-22-2003, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Glover isn't a bad idea for a closer and maybe even Wunsch too :smile:

Not Wright! He needs to start and should take Garland's place when he's healthy. He's made ONE relief appearance in his career. Why suddenly is he tailor-made for the bullpen?

I think that each team should have a closer and the bullpen should have defined roles. One of our problems is Jerry throws guys in whenever and they never know if they're going to be in long relief or set-up or closing (like last year with the 3-ring circus). Whenever they interview bullpen guys they always say that they want to know their role so they can be better prepared mentally for their time in the game. Don't pick the 'best' reliever. Have a closer and Koch is our guy!

im not a glover fan but even if i was no way could i advocate him in the closer role this year if koch goes down..we are contenders this year..whether we keep bartolo for one year or four years imo depends on if we make the playoffs...if it wasnt this vital that we make the playoffs this year the glover or wright in the pen would have some merit ....but if its not koch we are for tunate we have 2 guys that have closed before in the pen...we got to use them imo

White_Sock
04-22-2003, 03:30 AM
Why must a team rely on a closer? Unless a pitcher is going to be reliable 90% of the time - why must we use one pitcher in more games than any other pitcher? You're giving one guy the opportunity screw up more of the one stat that matters the most ->WINS. A pitcher should be suited to the situation. A fastball pitcher is always going to meet a lot of guys that can hit his stuff unless he has something else to throw the opteam off. Koch likes to pitch himself into jams and then get out of them. There's always going to be a few fastball deadeyes in a lineup. Give them the opportunity in the 9th and you can get in serous trouble. If a mid-reliever is freezing the opposing teams bats then theres no reason why he should not pitch into the 9th. Just because he's not the official "closer" doesn't mean he should be shut down in the name of job-titles. Koch should be our "oh crap nothing else is working" guy and not the primary means of ending a game.

TheBigHurt
04-22-2003, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by hose
ROFLOL

Either you is or you isn't ....which one is it. :smile:

WELL i said or what i meant to say was i am confident he will be fine but worried what will happen if he continues to struggle......HOPE thats clearer

BE GOOD

SuperGrover
04-22-2003, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Koch throws hard and looks tough so he's a better bet to pitch well than Foulke who has the better track record of pitching well.

Is that you Kenny?

SuperGrover
04-22-2003, 07:20 PM
The issue I and I believe several others have is that we should not have Koch at all right now. We should have Foulke, just like we should have Kip Wells as our #3 starter. Instead out idiot GM has derailed another potential playoff club with his own brand of genius. What will do when this last wave of young talent runs out in, say, 2006? Do any of you have confidence that Kenny will be able to rebuild the team into some form of contention?

Daver
04-22-2003, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by SuperGrover
Do any of you have confidence that Kenny will be able to rebuild the team into some form of contention?

He has chosen most of the talent you are seeing out of the minor leagues now.

SuperGrover
04-22-2003, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by daver
He has chosen most of the talent you are seeing out of the minor leagues now.

That's any over-simplification of the player development staff the White Sox had in place in the mid 90s. Williams did have a hand in player development, but to say he choose all of the players is a complete fabrication.

Riddle me this: if Williams is such a draft guru, why have the past two Sox drafts been mediocre, especially compared to the drafts when Williams was not the GM? The answer is a) Williams is not involved in the draft anymore or b) others (Evans/Schuler/etc.) had a lrage say in the mid-90s drafts. Whatever the case, the current situation provides me with absolutely no hope for the future.

Daver
04-22-2003, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by SuperGrover
That's any over-simplification of the player development staff the White Sox had in place in the mid 90s. Williams did have a hand in player development, but to say he choose all of the players is a complete fabrication.

Riddle me this: if Williams is such a draft guru, why have the past two Sox drafts been mediocre, especially compared to the drafts when Williams was not the GM? The answer is a) Williams is not involved in the draft anymore or b) others (Evans/Schuler/etc.) had a lrage say in the mid-90s drafts. Whatever the case, the current situation provides me with absolutely no hope for the future.

Williams took over the draft in 1999,last years draft was a disappointment but it was also a weak draft overall,Ron Schueler never did a damn thing other than live off what he inherited from Larry Himes,so don't even start that argument.

SuperGrover
04-22-2003, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by daver
Williams took over the draft in 1999,last years draft was a disappointment but it was also a weak draft overall,Ron Schueler never did a damn thing other than live off what he inherited from Larry Himes,so don't even start that argument.

You're not hearing me argue that Schulere was a God-send, I'm simply pointing out that the Sox' drafts have been mediocre at best with Kenny Williams at the helm. Add that to the carnage his tenure has left at the ML level and you have the recipe for a consistent loser for some time to come.

Daver
04-22-2003, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by SuperGrover
You're not hearing me argue that Schulere was a God-send, I'm simply pointing out that the Sox' drafts have been mediocre at best with Kenny Williams at the helm. Add that to the carnage his tenure has left at the ML level and you have the recipe for a consistent loser for some time to come.

The Sox have one of the better farm systems in MLB,the only reason it has slipped out of the top ten is because they graduate their talent to the big league level,how does that equate to 4 years of mediocre drafts?

Either back your argument up or drop it.

soxguy
04-22-2003, 09:43 PM
everyone just take a deep breath....count to 10.......ohm....ohm.....ohm. now, listen up, its early koch needs to find a rhythm he will be fine. I know most sox fans expect some disaster around every corner,but,lets try to remember its a long year and at the end billy koch will be the least of our worries.

THE_HOOTER
04-22-2003, 10:49 PM
I thought the White Sox farm system was ranked near the bottom this winter? I'm not sure, but I thought that was the case.

These farmhands who graduate-we have had some real good players who have jumped to the majors in surpirsing fashion.

Magglio, and Buehrle come to mind.

If Crede and Borchard fulfill their potential, that is a pretty darn good nucleus raised from the farm.

The Ritchie trade hurt our young pitching depth.

Fogg and Wells would look so good on the roster right now.


Oh, and the Foulke trade, just horrible.

baggio202
04-23-2003, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
I thought the White Sox farm system was ranked near the bottom this winter? I'm not sure, but I thought that was the case.

These farmhands who graduate-we have had some real good players who have jumped to the majors in surpirsing fashion.

Magglio, and Buehrle come to mind.

If Crede and Borchard fulfill their potential, that is a pretty darn good nucleus raised from the farm.

The Ritchie trade hurt our young pitching depth.

Fogg and Wells would look so good on the roster right now.


Oh, and the Foulke trade, just horrible.

most of the services i read have us ranked somewhere between 18-22..good post..pretty much agree with all of it

Daver
04-23-2003, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by baggio202
most of the services i read have us ranked somewhere between 18-22..good post..pretty much agree with all of it

Want to offer some links to back that up?

SuperGrover
04-23-2003, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by daver
Want to offer some links to back that up?

Most that I've seen put the Sox between 14-18. the only free one that I could find was this http://www.topprospectalert.com/top10/2002teams.shtm. Unfortunately, it's for 2002, but we haven't gone up any.

Baseball America's are premium now, but I think they have us at 16. I can't remember because I just glanced at the Prospect Handbook during a quick trip to Borders..

Daver
04-23-2003, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by SuperGrover
Most that I've seen put the Sox between 14-18. the only free one that I could find was this http://www.topprospectalert.com/top10/2002teams.shtm. Unfortunately, it's for 2002, but we haven't gone up any.

Baseball America's are premium now, but I think they have us at 16. I can't remember because I just glanced at the Prospect Handbook during a quick trip to Borders..


That is not my fault,BA has the Sox at fifteen,with the notation that the reason the Sox are there is because the bulk of their talent is in the low minors,having graduated a good amount of their talent to the MLB club.

You still haven't proven a damn thing,and I doubt you can.

SuperGrover
04-23-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by daver
The Sox have one of the better farm systems in MLB,the only reason it has slipped out of the top ten is because they graduate their talent to the big league level,how does that equate to 4 years of mediocre drafts?

Either back your argument up or drop it.

Why do I need to back up my agrument? You haven't backed up yours?

Anyway, the Sox system is mediocre right now. They've put some good talent in the show the last three years (Buehrle, Crede, Olivo) but only one of which (Buerhle) could be considered a superstar. Moreover, their upper level minor league talent is awful right now. While the next few years will be okay, it remains to be seen if the Sox can replace the aging/expensive veterans (Thomas, Lee, Ordonez, Buehrle, Colon, Valentin) that are sure to leave by 2006.

I never said they were horrible, but they certainly are not one of the best anymore. They are mid pack, pretty much like our record ever since Williams took over.

SuperGrover
04-23-2003, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by daver
That is not my fault,BA has the Sox at fifteen,with the notation that the reason the Sox are there is because the bulk of their talent is in the low minors,having graduated a good amount of their talent to the MLB club.

You still haven't proven a damn thing,and I doubt you can.

It's not that the bulk of their talent is in the low minors, its that all of their talent is the low minors. Name me one player that you consider a prospect that will be ready within the next two seasons?

Farm systems are supposed to be balanced. The Sox have lost that balance since Williams took over.

Daver
04-23-2003, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by SuperGrover
It's not that the bulk of their talent is in the low minors, its that all of their talent is the low minors. Name me one player that you consider a prospect that will be ready within the next two seasons?

Farm systems are supposed to be balanced. The Sox have lost that balance since Williams took over.

Umm,no they lost the balance because Schueler was an idiot,Williams is correcting that problem.

You are the the type that dislike's something to the point that you become blind to all else,you dislike Williams so you will overlook the fact that Schueler is the one that put this team in the position it is in,not Williams.

And Joe Borchard will be with the Sox this season.

Find another argument or come better prepared.

SuperGrover
04-23-2003, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by daver
Umm,no they lost the balance because Schueler was an idiot,Williams is correcting that problem.

You are the the type that dislike's something to the point that you become blind to all else,you dislike Williams so you will overlook the fact that Schueler is the one that put this team in the position it is in,not Williams.

And Joe Borchard will be with the Sox this season.

Find another argument or come better prepared.

Explain to me how Schueler did this? Explain to me how Schueler convinced Williams to deal for Ritchie and Wells. Explain to me how Schuler cinvinced Williams that Crede wasn't ready. Explain to me how Schuler cosumated the Foulke deal. Please explain.

Do you ever read any non-mainstream baseball sites? Have you ever visited BaseballPrimer.com? BaseballProspectus.com (before it went premium)? Have you seen what enlighted folks think about Williams? How am I blind here?

BTW, it's nice to know I can be judged so quickly based upon a few message board posts. Thanks alot for your insight Kreskin.

SuperGrover
04-23-2003, 08:17 PM
Borchard is the only Sox farmhand that anyone would consider a prospect. Rauch could regain that mantle. The rest? Nothing but replacement level talent.

Daver
04-23-2003, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by SuperGrover
Explain to me how Schueler did this? Explain to me how Schueler convinced Williams to deal for Ritchie and Wells. Explain to me how Schuler cinvinced Williams that Crede wasn't ready. Explain to me how Schuler cosumated the Foulke deal. Please explain.

Do you ever read any non-mainstream baseball sites? Have you ever visited BaseballPrimer.com? BaseballProspectus.com (before it went premium)? Have you seen what enlighted folks think about Williams? How am I blind here?

BTW, it's nice to know I can be judged so quickly based upon a few message board posts. Thanks alot for your insight Kreskin.

If you need me to explain Schueler's horrible track record as a GM then you need to do your homework buddy,his drafts were laughable at best.

I never mentioned anything about the trades Williams has made,you did,I was referring to the farm system,and only the farm system,but like I said in an earlier post,you are blind to anything that distracts you from your goal of not respecting Kenny Williams ever does.

And if you think I am going to let someone else's opinion sway mine,as you have obviously done,then I got some news for you,it ain't gonna happen,I am my own judge on that.


And thanks for coming here with your one minded opinion to enlighten us all.

Get all the facts or find a new argument.

SuperGrover
04-23-2003, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by daver
If you need me to explain Schueler's horrible track record as a GM then you need to do your homework buddy,his drafts were laughable at best.

I never mentioned anything about the trades Williams has made,you did,I was referring to the farm system,and only the farm system,but like I said in an earlier post,you are blind to anything that distracts you from your goal of not respecting Kenny Williams ever does.

And if you think I am going to let someone else's opinion sway mine,as you have obviously done,then I got some news for you,it ain't gonna happen,I am my own judge on that.


And thanks for coming here with your one minded opinion to enlighten us all.

Get all the facts or find a new argument.

No, you need to enlighten me. You have not made a single assertion in your argument yet. If Schuler's drafts were so bad, how did the Sox rank near the top of the farm system rankings near the end of his tenure?

I don't let other people's opinions sway me. I do like to form my opinions based upon facts and well-thought out arguments. BaseballPrimer and BaseballProspectus do a good job of providing those.

As for getting my facts straight, why don't you refute them? Broad generalizations are not viable butresses for your arguments. You say Williams is fixing Schuler's mess-show me how. You say Williams has an excellent draft record--show me some evidence.

My argument is a simple one; Kenny Williams is a below-average ML GM. If you disagree, provide some evidence.

Daver
04-23-2003, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by SuperGrover
No, you need to enlighten me. You have not made a single assertion in your argument yet. If Schuler's drafts were so bad, how did the Sox rank near the top of the farm system rankings near the end of his tenure?

I don't let other people's opinions sway me. I do like to form my opinions based upon facts and well-thought out arguments. BaseballPrimer and BaseballProspectus do a good job of providing those.

As for getting my facts straight, why don't you refute them? Broad generalizations are not viable butresses for your arguments. You say Williams is fixing Schuler's mess-show me how. You say Williams has an excellent draft record--show me some evidence.

My argument is a simple one; Kenny Williams is a below-average ML GM. If you disagree, provide some evidence.

I made my point when I told you that Schueler did nothing other than ride the drafts of Larry Himes,you tell me how he improved the farm system other than let it take its course,I am not going to do your homework for you,if you want to argue it know your facts or drop it,plain and simple.


Come back and talk to me when you find one player that Ron Schueler drafted that is an above average MLB player.

And I never never said anything about how good a GM Kenny Williams is,do not even think about putting words in my mouth.


Go ask the enlightened spirits at BP,I'm sure they could help you.

hose
04-24-2003, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
Foulke blew 3 saves last year by Memorial day!!!!!!!!!! Koch has blown two saves by mid April!

At the end of last year, Foulke allowed 1 earned run in his last 24 appearances!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And you are glad we dont have that right?

Please get off the "Koch is OK" soapbox-- he looks horrible and without a dependable closer, the Sox go nowhere fast.

If he closes a few games in a row I say it was mechanics or whatever excuse fits.

If he blows his next save situation and they lose, I put Marte in as closer, Wunsch takes Marte's spot with Gordon setting up, and White, Glover and Danny Wright shoring up middle relief.

If Garland does not improve over his next few starts, or Stewart stumbles, switch Wright into the rotation.

Koch can clean the jock straps, the toilets, and pitch when we are up 15-0.

Shave that stupid clump of hair too. It looks real silly when you give up dinger after dinger.



Are you on the Keith Foulke "soap box" ? He is gone for good , it's over, not here no more, ain't coming back no more no more no more.

Koch has blown saves this season and so has Foulke.

I seen Foulke pitch Sunday in a non save situation and he got himself in a 1st and 3rd jam and got out of it. I'm sure the A's fans were wondering about the trade with Koch, just like Sox fans do when Billy is struggling.

Foulke blew the save in Tuesdays game against the Tigers.