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View Full Version : I'm starting early, and I don't give a **** how much you disagree with me


Viva Magglio
04-15-2003, 09:43 PM
:firejerry

cheeses_h_rice
04-15-2003, 09:52 PM
I give the blame to Koch, and only Koch. Admittedly I missed a large chunk of the first 7 innings, but how can you blame Manuel for putting in our "closer" to finish out the game? If not now, when?

That said, that was (is? -- I turned off the game when they took a 3-run lead) a Foulke Implosion if I've ever seen one. Did we really improve at that position?

MetalliSox
04-15-2003, 09:52 PM
What did he do? Was it Jerry who was throwing straight fastballs belt high down the middle of the plate in the 9th?

He was the one who moves Rios to left who made a nice play before Koch imploded...again.

I hate the way he treats Wunsch. We have two lefties in him and Marte who are flat out nasty against righties and Jer wants to start White in the 8th. Oh well.

Royals are the '01 Twins.

MRKARNO
04-15-2003, 09:55 PM
You know the game is very sad when you look to the News for relief from the game

Viva Magglio
04-15-2003, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
What did he do? Was it Jerry who was throwing straight fastballs belt high down the middle of the plate in the 9th?

He was the one who moves Rios to left who made a nice play before Koch imploded...again.

I hate the way he treats Wunsch. We have two lefties in him and Marte who are flat out nasty against righties and Jer wants to start White in the 8th. Oh well.

Royals are the '01 Twins.

Here comes the Jerry Manuel Arse Licking Society!!! No, Manuel is not 100% responsible for our getting off to a crappy start for the third season in a row, but his Jauronesque style of management is a big chunk of it. I think this team loses a lot of ballgames because of a lack of heart, and the reason they have a lack of heart is because Manuel is a miserable failure at firing up the team, especially in times of adversity.

A.T. Money
04-15-2003, 10:09 PM
Koch threw 2 meatballs to Randa (who we can never get out), and Sweeney, who obviously is God when the game is on the line. This is so lame.

Procol Harum
04-15-2003, 10:11 PM
Don't forget Paulie's bonehead error which let the Royals get back even w/ us in the 8th. Maybe the worst part of this is that we wasted a rare Big Frank late-inning clutch homer.

jeremyb1
04-15-2003, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Here comes the Jerry Manuel Arse Licking Society!!! No, Manuel is not 100% responsible for our getting off to a crappy start for the third season in a row, but his Jauronesque style of management is a big chunk of it. I think this team loses a lot of ballgames because of a lack of heart, and the reason they have a lack of heart is because Manuel is a miserable failure at firing up the team, especially in times of adversity.

that is such a cop out. your personal opinion is that because of manuel the team doesn't have heart. this isn't backed up by anything yet its how you feel. you're now going to use that to blame every thing bad that happens to the team on manuel. are you kidding me? if we had a different manager koch would've gotten out of the inning? come on.

duke of dorwood
04-15-2003, 10:14 PM
I agree with the post-the mental errors are due to the lack of edge this team has had since the 2000 playoffs. The common denominator? THE MANAGER. Its the manager who keeps pitching to guys that beat us like a drum over & over.

HawkDJ
04-15-2003, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
You know the game is very sad when you look to the News for relief from the game

And what do you see on the news but idiots attacking umps at US Cell. Cubs fans will have a field day tomorrow.

Iguana775
04-15-2003, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
I agree with the post-the mental errors are due to the lack of edge this team has had since the 2000 playoffs. The common denominator? THE MANAGER. Its the manager who keeps pitching to guys that beat us like a drum over & over.

it's the manager that is suppose to get your team fundamentally sound. the Sox AREN'T!

Procol Harum
04-15-2003, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by SoxDemon
Koch threw 2 meatballs to Randa (who we can never get out), and Sweeney, who obviously is God when the game is on the line. This is so lame.

I knew that Sweeney was going to take him deep as soon as I saw whatsisname's hit in the gap on which Rios made the good catch. Then came Randa's frozen rope single, and then came Sweeney and sho' nuff'.....

By the by, the Sox should move heaven and earth to try to get Randa. Now, I'm sure he would turn into a complete bum as soon as he donned a White Sox uniform, but at least we wouldn't have to face him....

THE_HOOTER
04-15-2003, 10:18 PM
The game was on the line and the closer once again didnt do his job.

Maybe he should stop talking so much in spring training and actually concentrate on his job?

Koch sucks, and although I think Manuel is a minor league developmental type of coach, I dont think he lost this game.

The loud mouth closer did. If Foulke would have done this, his job would be in doubt.

Put Marte out there for the ninth-Koch is overrated and has blown us 2 games in 13.

Tavarin
04-15-2003, 10:21 PM
He's blown 1, the umpire blew the first one, Sweeney swung and missed and the ump called it a ball. Any reliever the Sox have wouldn't have been able to recover after a bad call like that. It psychs out them mentally, so they have to get it right down the middle, and then they give up hits.

Why get Randa? Get Sweeney if anyone, he's the one who is killing the Sox.

Tragg
04-15-2003, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by Procol Harum
Don't forget Paulie's bonehead error which let the Royals get back even w/ us in the 8th. Maybe the worst part of this is that we wasted a rare Big Frank late-inning clutch homer.

Konerko makes a lot of those - several key errors per season. I agree with the poster above - Randa absolutely owns us. Why not let Marte close for this series. Koch is costing us games.

jeremyb1
04-15-2003, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
I agree with the post-the mental errors are due to the lack of edge this team has had since the 2000 playoffs. The common denominator? THE MANAGER. Its the manager who keeps pitching to guys that beat us like a drum over & over.

you act as though we have a top offensive team. lets see valentin is below average at short as is paully at first base. these are two poor defenders, read any scouting report. two poor defensive players make errors and its manuel's fault for failing to give the team an edge? is it manuel's fault if josh paul doesn't throw out baserunners too? its not because josh has a weak arm and can't throw its because manuel hasn't given the team an edge and doesn't teach good fundamentals? give me a break.

Lip Man 1
04-15-2003, 11:19 PM
Jeremy there is some truth to what you say but also consider this.

In the past five years the Sox have had (conservatively) over 100 guys in uniform. Are ALL of them baseball stupid? are all of them unable to bunt, run the bases, catch the ball?

If so then the Sox scouting, developing and upper management staff needs to be fired because they aren't getting players who can or know how to play the game at a championship level.

If not, they what happens to all these different guys when they put on a Sox uniform, "bad karma?"

I can' believe all Sox players the past five years are as bad as Carlos "The Butcher" Lee in fundamentals.

So what happens to them? What do they work on in Spring Training?

Lip

mac9001
04-15-2003, 11:29 PM
http://home.attbi.com/~mac9009/wsb/media/146034/site1015.gif

MHOUSE
04-15-2003, 11:35 PM
Tonight is on Koch. When they tied it I thought it would be corpseball to the end and K.C. would win. But no! Frank picked up the team and Jerry made the obvious move for his closer to shut the door. Koch gave up 4 runs in 0.1 IP. That's awful, especially for someone who's talks so much. Then in the ninth we got two guys on before they went down in flames. Jerry made some good defensive moves with Rios and Rowand. I think he managed the game well enough, but some of our guys didn't perform. Now whether that, in the long term, is on him is up for debate. But as far as management I thought he did well.

gosox41
04-15-2003, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
I give the blame to Koch, and only Koch. Admittedly I missed a large chunk of the first 7 innings, but how can you blame Manuel for putting in our "closer" to finish out the game? If not now, when?

That said, that was (is? -- I turned off the game when they took a 3-run lead) a Foulke Implosion if I've ever seen one. Did we really improve at that position?

Nope. I've been saying that since the trade was made and unfortunately I'm right. I wish I were wrong and eating crow right now. Billy Koch is a very overrated closer. Not just because of his 2 blown saves this season. For the record he is 32 of 47 in 1 run games from 2000-2002. During that same time Foulke is 35-41. Foulke has better K/BB and WHIP rates. Koch throws harder so people love him. Go figure.

Bob

gosox41
04-15-2003, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by Tavarin
He's blown 1, the umpire blew the first one, Sweeney swung and missed and the ump called it a ball. Any reliever the Sox have wouldn't have been able to recover after a bad call like that. It psychs out them mentally, so they have to get it right down the middle, and then they give up hits.

Why get Randa? Get Sweeney if anyone, he's the one who is killing the Sox.

I thought people were talking about Koch's mental toughnes vs. Foulke's lack of confidence.

Did Michael Jordan get psyched out for big games or did he just perform better?

Koch blew that first save. He also let the flood gates open after that. He should not be psyched out. If anything he should be that much more determined to do his job which is to stop the other team from scoring runs.

Bob

baggio202
04-16-2003, 12:40 AM
guys..im sorry but koch just isnt that good of a closer..period...if he was so good why did both toronto and oakland get rid of him in back to back years??..when this trade was made i posted kcoh's stats vrs foulke's..foulke has proven over the last 4 years that he is a much better closer..but a lot of people were like "oh koch is betetr because of his mentality", or my favorite" koch is a flame thrower , thats a prototypical closer"...many other people besides me said that koch just doesnt add up..im not saying this to be an i told you so but to blame manuel because fans think koch is a god is wrong..koch is not that good of a closer..i dont care how many saves he has...

bottom line is koch is no where near the pitcher foulke is...so if you hated foulke youre gonna grow to despise koch..over on the other board there are 3 canadian sox fans..all 3 when the trade was made said get the roalids ready and youre not gonna like this guy..he sucked in toronto..was lucky in oakland...and he sux again..in '01 he had a 4.80 era and blew 8 save...A FOUR POINT EIGHT O ERA!! !..lloks like we get the '01 version of billy..oh goody for us

as for manuel...im no fan..i left the jerry bandwagon last year when he foulked foulke over...but tonight he made all the right moves..our overpriced loser of a closer gets all blame in this one.. i cant blame manuel one bit for tonight..

this situation can be rectified...we have a guy i think can become the next great closer...damaso marte...the faster jerry moves him into the closer role the faster we right the ship...marte stuff is downright sick..all this guy does is strike MF out!!..last year he saved 10 of 11 after foulke was removed from the closer role..10 of 12 overall..he proved he can handle the pressure of being a closer..and his stuff is better than koch's..

if manuel makes the bold move to get marte into the closer role real soon then i might get right back on the bandwagon...of course then we need to find another lefty to go with wunsch..perhaps dave sanders from charlotte..looked good in ST and is pitching well down in charlotte i believe...or maybe if gordon can get his crap together he can handle the lefties from the right side,,when tom is on he can get anyone out...but that too hasnt been the case lately

pudge
04-16-2003, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by baggio202
guys..im sorry but koch just isnt that good of a closer..period...if he was so good why did both toronto and oakland get rid of him in back to back years??..when this trade was made i posted kcoh's stats vrs foulke's..foulke has proven over the last 4 years that he is a much better closer..but a lot of people were like "oh koch is betetr because of his mentality", or my favorite" koch is a flame thrower , thats a prototypical closer"...many other people besides me said that koch just doesnt add up..im not saying this to be an i told you so but to blame manuel because fans think koch is a god is wrong..koch is not that good of a closer..i dont care how many saves he has...

bottom line is koch is no where near the pitcher foulke is...so if you hated foulke youre gonna grow to despise koch..over on the other board there are 3 canadian sox fans..all 3 when the trade was made said get the roalids ready and youre not gonna like this guy..he sucked in toronto..was lucky in oakland...and he sux again..in '01 he had a 4.80 era and blew 8 save...A FOUR POINT EIGHT O ERA!! !..lloks like we get the '01 version of billy..oh goody for us

as for manuel...im no fan..i left the jerry bandwagon last year when he foulked foulke over...but tonight he made all the right moves..our overpriced loser of a closer gets all blame in this one.. i cant blame manuel one bit for tonight..

this situation can be rectified...we have a guy i think can become the next great closer...damaso marte...the faster jerry moves him into the closer role the faster we right the ship...marte stuff is downright sick..all this guy does is strike MF out!!..last year he saved 10 of 11 after foulke was removed from the closer role..10 of 12 overall..he proved he can handle the pressure of being a closer..and his stuff is better than koch's..

if manuel makes the bold move to get marte into the closer role real soon then i might get right back on the bandwagon...of course then we need to find another lefty to go with wunsch..perhaps dave sanders from charlotte..looked good in ST and is pitching well down in charlotte i believe...or maybe if gordon can get his crap together he can handle the lefties from the right side,,when tom is on he can get anyone out...but that too hasnt been the case lately

awesome post baggio - too bad it'll never happen.

LuvSox
04-16-2003, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
I agree with the post-the mental errors are due to the lack of edge this team has had since the 2000 playoffs. The common denominator? THE MANAGER. Its the manager who keeps pitching to guys that beat us like a drum over & over.

I second you & Viva, it all boils down to the manager.


:firejerry