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Lip Man 1
04-15-2003, 04:38 PM
With the Sox offense off to a slower then expected start I was trying to figure out what options Manager Gandhi could try to "create" some offense, to try to force the action and potentially force the opposition into making some mistakes.

Honestly the way this team is constructed I can't find any solutions and throw the discussion open to the board.

For the first time in awhile the Sox don't have any real team speed therefore they probably can't just go out and attempt to steal bases to get guys in scoring position or force mistakes.

Many managers compensate for not having speed by putting runners and the ball in motion. (i.e. hit and run, run and hit, safety squeeze, straight squeeze ect...) But the Sox are atrocious in fundamentals.

So how do the Sox create offense when the hitters are in a slump or facing a top flight pitcher? (or for that matter when facing a "no name" pitcher which seems to actually confound them more!) or when the weather is awful.

You can't just sit back and play (or hope) for the three run home run forever. (At least it didn't work in 2001 and 2002.)

Any solutions?????

Lip

SuperGrover
04-15-2003, 04:47 PM
Dude,

The Sox were 3rd in the league in runs scored last year and were a mere three runs from being in 2nd. Sitting back and waiting for a three run home run is fine when you have people on base and you actually hit the three run homer. The current problem is that the Sox simply aren't hitting as well as they are capable in any capacity. Additionally, the aren't hitting much with RISP (0.243, 0.336. 0.315) which is dragging their runs scored down to levels below what is to be expected from their other offensive stats. They will come out of it and eventually lead the AL Central in runs--guaranteed.

hold2dibber
04-15-2003, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
With the Sox offense off to a slower then expected start I was trying to figure out what options Manager Gandhi could try to "create" some offense, to try to force the action and potentially force the opposition into making some mistakes.

Honestly the way this team is constructed I can't find any solutions and throw the discussion open to the board.

For the first time in awhile the Sox don't have any real team speed therefore they probably can't just go out and attempt to steal bases to get guys in scoring position or force mistakes.

Many managers compensate for not having speed by putting runners and the ball in motion. (i.e. hit and run, run and hit, safety squeeze, straight squeeze ect...) But the Sox are atrocious in fundamentals.

So how do the Sox create offense when the hitters are in a slump or facing a top flight pitcher? (or for that matter when facing a "no name" pitcher which seems to actually confound them more!) or when the weather is awful.

You can't just sit back and play (or hope) for the three run home run forever. (At least it didn't work in 2001 and 2002.)

Any solutions?????

Lip

No.

This is the major problem with the way this team is constructed. They can't really maufacture offense. I fear that we're going to see a lot of 9-4 wins and a lot of 4-0 losses. Feast or famine.

Shoeless Joe
04-15-2003, 04:52 PM
You can ask Jobu to take the fear out of the Sox's bats because they just can't seem to hit curveballs.

I also heard those Tom Emanski videos are highly educational. Plus his team has won back-to-back-to-back AAU National Championships.

But if that doesn't work then it's time to bring Gary Ward to the equation. Maybe some extra work with the team will wake up the bats a little bit.

hold2dibber
04-15-2003, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by SuperGrover
Dude,

The Sox were 3rd in the league in runs scored last year and were a mere three runs from being in 2nd. Sitting back and waiting for a three run home run is fine when you have people on base and you actually hit the three run homer. The current problem is that the Sox simply aren't hitting as well as they are capable in any capacity. Additionally, the aren't hitting much with RISP (0.243, 0.336. 0.315) which is dragging their runs scored down to levels below what is to be expected from their other offensive stats. They will come out of it and eventually lead the AL Central in runs--guaranteed.

But the problem is that on nights when they're facing a tough pitcher or are otherwise not bashing the ball around, they don't have a way to manufacture a few runs. Here's an example. Over a 3 game period, the team might score 19 runs. That's a lot of runs over three games - almost 7 per. But if they score 13 then 3 then 3 in those three games, there's a damn good chance they'll only win one of them. That seemed to happen a lot last year (although I admit this is entirely anecdotal based upon my memory and I could be wrong). They can't eek out an extra run or two to get them over the hump when they're having a hard time scoring runs.

Daver
04-15-2003, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Shoeless Joe


But if that doesn't work then it's time to bring Gary Ward to the equation. Maybe some extra work with the team will wake up the bats a little bit.

Better yet....


:fireward

Foulke You
04-15-2003, 05:12 PM
Why can't the Sox steal with the players that DO have speed on the team? Jimenez is fairly quick, Valentin is no slouch, and Maggs and Carlos have been known to steal in the past too. I'll admit that Frank and Konerko are pulling some meat wagons behind them but those are our power guys. I'll also admit that we don't have the fastest team in the bigs but just because Ray Durham is gone doesn't mean our leadoff man and #2 hitter can't try to steal. The problem is Manuel never seems to want to put the players in motion. I tend to think both the players and manager are passive because of all the games we ran ourselves out of last year. The Sox seem to toe the line between aggresive and stupid baserunning. I think the passive approach to stealing and hit and runs recently is because they are afraid of running themselves out of the game like '02.

czalgosz
04-15-2003, 05:39 PM
I guess I don't understand the question.

The Sox are at worst middle of the pack in all important offensive categories so far this season, and it's still really early. I expect the Sox to improve on this as the weather warms up. I wouldn't worry about it yet.

I'm not a fan of a big running game - it usually causes more harm than good.

ChiSoxBobette
04-15-2003, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
With the Sox offense off to a slower then expected start I was trying to figure out what options Manager Gandhi could try to "create" some offense, to try to force the action and potentially force the opposition into making some mistakes.

Honestly the way this team is constructed I can't find any solutions and throw the discussion open to the board.

For the first time in awhile the Sox don't have any real team speed therefore they probably can't just go out and attempt to steal bases to get guys in scoring position or force mistakes.

Many managers compensate for not having speed by putting runners and the ball in motion. (i.e. hit and run, run and hit, safety squeeze, straight squeeze ect...) But the Sox are atrocious in fundamentals.

So how do the Sox create offense when the hitters are in a slump or facing a top flight pitcher? (or for that matter when facing a "no name" pitcher which seems to actually confound them more!) or when the weather is awful.

You can't just sit back and play (or hope) for the three run home run forever. (At least it didn't work in 2001 and 2002.)

Any solutions?????
I don't know what the solution would be other than we need a manager that has the smarts to create offense when our bats are not hitting. Thats our biggest problem Manuel just does'nt have the ability to take over a game when a manager should see he needs to create some offense. Is'nt it up to him & his coaches to get it across to these players that sometimes you need to be able to bunt & hit behind a runner and when you have 2 strikes on you & a runner on 3rd to be able to hit the fly ball to at least bring in 1 run. No our manager seems to wait all the time for the big inning so then we will be stuck with either blowing out a team or losing by a run.
Go White Sox

Lip

LuvSox
04-15-2003, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by Shoeless Joe
I also heard those Tom Emanski videos are highly educational. Plus his team has won back-to-back-to-back AAU National Championships.


That's priceless! :D: I just saw that commercial late last night, that Crime Dog is quite an actor.

AngelLeroy
04-15-2003, 06:29 PM
I am a big fan of an aggressive running game, and of moving runners along. I would much rather see the Sox consistently score 4-6 runs a game, rather than 10, 4, 2, 17, 0, 6, 3, etc. If a runner gets on first with 0 or 1 out, he needs to get to second or third with less than 2 outs. Steals, hit and runs, situational hitting, walks, and sacrifices are the key. If the Sox can make their opponents think they're going to score every time someone gets on base, even if it's just one run, it's a huge psychological advantage. Sure they're going to run themselves out of some situations, but generally it'll help more than it hurts.

On similar note, I would love to see someone who is relatively fast in the #9 hole (Paul and Olivo are pretty quick, maybe Rowand as well?). Jimenez has a good eye and makes a decent amount of contact, so he'd be a good guy to have take a pitch on a steal, or hit-and-run with. Valentin and Jimenez should also run in front of Frank sometimes, with the eye Frank has. Their purpose is to help distract the pitcher so he makes mistakes.
I'd also like to see Maggs and C Lee (if he stops the meltdowns) run a lot more... say 25-30 opportunities each. Valentin should get the same amount, and Olivo/Paul and Jimenez should probably get in the teens.
Valentin should focus less on hitting home runs (25-30 is nice, but I'd rather see him hit .270-.280 with 10-15 than .250 with 25 or 30) and more on learning to bunt, hit the ball to the right side, and walk. He also strikes out way too much for a #2 hitter.

southpaw40
04-15-2003, 07:16 PM
I think this team is constructed the way it is for a reason. And that reason is that there are a number of hitters throughout the lineup (or on the bench)who can get that timely hit or home run on any given at-bat. Because it doesn't happen every at-bat or every game is no reason to second-guess that philosophy, any more so than it would be to second guess a hit and run team or a team built on speed when their approaches don't work. We have a team which has difficulty "manufacturing" runs. Conversely, there are teams which do not hit many home runs (compared to the Sox). Which type team would you rather have if you're down more than 1 run in the ninth?
I think over the course of a complete season, both teams will be faced with situations where they need a run or two an equal number of times, and I think they will succeed or fail an equal number of times.
Really, I don't think there are more than a handful of teams which can score either way when needed. Granted, they are to be envied, but they are definitely in the minority.
Should we as Sox fans be more upset with Carlos Lee because he fails to execute a bunt when needed, than, say, Angels fans should be with David Eckstein (or that pinch hitter off the bench)when he can't hit that three run home run when needed?
And should the manager be held responsible in either situation?

Iguana775
04-15-2003, 08:35 PM
I am starting to think that JM just doesn't give a crap.

AngelLeroy
04-15-2003, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by southpaw40
Should we as Sox fans be more upset with Carlos Lee because he fails to execute a bunt when needed, than, say, Angels fans should be with David Eckstein (or that pinch hitter off the bench)when he can't hit that three run home run when needed?


Yes. Bunting isn't anything like hitting a 3 run homer. I don't even see how you can compare them. And I'm not saying the Sox should ignore power and go purely for speed and manufacturing runs, I understand the team wasn't built that way. It still stands, however, that they have to be able to combine them. Or they won't win.

southpaw40
04-16-2003, 08:35 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AngelLeroy
[B]Yes. Bunting isn't anything like hitting a 3 run homer. I don't even see how you can compare them.

That's not my point, I'm not comparing them. The point is they both are part of baseball. Executing a sacrifice bunt requires a specific skill, and isn't guaranteed to be successful if not done correctly. Not all players have the same amount of that skill.
This team wasn't built with players who have an abundance of that skill, so why expect to win a game by depending on a weakness?

ma-gaga
04-16-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
...I was trying ... to "create" some offense
...But the Sox are atrocious in fundamentals.
...So how do the Sox create offense


Like was mentioned, you have to use the skills of the players. That being said, the Sox are good at mashing the ball, but they don't have a lot of slap hitters. I'd probably load up on the body armor, and crowd as much of the plate as possible and see if you can lead the league in HBP's for a month. Get guys on base. Get into the other teams head. Then relax and hit with impunity.

But they have to play defense. They have to support their pitchers. Half the game is pitching and defense. Offense is great, but runs allowed will kill you.

:)

StepsInSC
04-16-2003, 10:42 AM
This team is loaded with skill and yet so piss poor at fundamentals, which takes no skill at all.

I'm not one to blame Jerry Manual, but from here on out they should practice a hell of a lot more. Not try and tire them out, but just basic fundamental crap. They have to get back to the basics. A team that can't even freaking bunt doesn't stand to go far IMO.

SuperGrover
04-16-2003, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
But the problem is that on nights when they're facing a tough pitcher or are otherwise not bashing the ball around, they don't have a way to manufacture a few runs. Here's an example. Over a 3 game period, the team might score 19 runs. That's a lot of runs over three games - almost 7 per. But if they score 13 then 3 then 3 in those three games, there's a damn good chance they'll only win one of them. That seemed to happen a lot last year (although I admit this is entirely anecdotal based upon my memory and I could be wrong). They can't eek out an extra run or two to get them over the hump when they're having a hard time scoring runs.

This type of thinking is anectdotal. It's akin to saying that the NL style wins World Series rings when most of the recent winners have played more AL style ball (high walk and home run totals).

Sure, it is nice to have the ability to steal a critical base now and then, but it's a lot nicer to have a bunch of guys with the ability to get on base and knock the p!ss out of the ball. The Yankees have virtually no speed in their lineup (Soriano is it with jeter out), but no one is complaining about their lack of running game.

AngelLeroy
04-16-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by southpaw40
That's not my point, I'm not comparing them. The point is they both are part of baseball. Executing a sacrifice bunt requires a specific skill, and isn't guaranteed to be successful if not done correctly. Not all players have the same amount of that skill.
This team wasn't built with players who have an abundance of that skill, so why expect to win a game by depending on a weakness?

Bunting is a fundamental, hitting a 3-run homer isn't. Not everyone can hit a home run, but every Major Leaguer is SUPPOSED to know how to bunt, and take a walk, and take pitches, and hit the ball to the right side or in the air to move runners along/drive them in.

SuperGrover
04-16-2003, 02:32 PM
It's not about hitting three run homers, it's about getting on base and hitting for power. Power can include any extra-base hits. Every player in the major leagues can hit an extra base hit on a farily regular basis.

BTW, why should ML players know how to bunt? How many times do you think Frank Thomas has bunted during a game in his life? How about Manny Ramirez? Alex Rodriguez? Why bunt when you have a fairly good chance of doing something beneficial for your team with the bat?