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jeremyb1
04-14-2003, 07:27 PM
a lot was made of the fact that howry supposedly immediately increased his velocity several mph to levels near what he hit before shoulder surgery with a simple mechanical adjustment after he was dealt last year. according to gammons, this is apparently not the case, at least not anymore:

Alan Embree's marked decline in velocity was credited to tendinitis, so he was forced to be placed on the disabled list. But Bobby Howry's velocity makes him a prime candidate to be released when Person comes back.

czalgosz
04-14-2003, 07:29 PM
The problem with the Red Sox bullpen isn't that they don't have a designated closer. Their problem is that they have crappy relievers. For some reason, sportswriters seem to have problem getting their heads around that.

Daver
04-14-2003, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
The problem with the Red Sox bullpen isn't that they don't have a designated closer. Their problem is that they have crappy relievers. For some reason, sportswriters seem to have problem getting their heads around that.

Howry definately fits under the heading of crappy,when all you have is a fastball with zero moivement and a slider you can't throw for a strike to save your life you got problems......

voodoochile
04-14-2003, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
The problem with the Red Sox bullpen isn't that they don't have a designated closer. Their problem is that they have crappy relievers. For some reason, sportswriters seem to have problem getting their heads around that.

POTW (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=13)

joecrede
04-14-2003, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
a lot was made of the fact that howry supposedly immediately increased his velocity several mph to levels near what he hit before shoulder surgery with a simple mechanical adjustment after he was dealt last year. according to gammons, this is apparently not the case, at least not anymore:

Interesting because Rauch had the same injury and his velocity returned late last year and according to reports disappeared in the spring.

Has any pitcher fully recovered from this "impingement"?

kermittheefrog
04-14-2003, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Interesting because Rauch had the same injury and his velocity returned late last year and according to reports disappeared in the spring.

Has any pitcher fully recovered from this "impingement"?

It's not the impingement that's the problem it's the SLAP lesion. An impingement is not a tough injury to return from. When I asked Will Carroll for an example of a pitcher who returned healthy after a SLAP lesion Carroll said Howry is probably the best example. Not the best news for Jon Rauch.

hose
04-14-2003, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
The problem with the Red Sox bullpen isn't that they don't have a designated closer. Their problem is that they have crappy relievers. For some reason, sportswriters seem to have problem getting their heads around that.


The crappy relievers WERE the plan,. Boy genius Epstein with some help from Bill James determined that a dominate closer was way over valued and free agent Urbina was not offered a contract to stay with Boston.

joecrede
04-14-2003, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
It's not the impingement that's the problem it's the SLAP lesion. An impingement is not a tough injury to return from. When I asked Will Carroll for an example of a pitcher who returned healthy after a SLAP lesion Carroll said Howry is probably the best example. Not the best news for Jon Rauch.

That's right, it was a SLAP lesion. My next question is how many pitchers have been diagnosed with this injury? Seems like it's relatively new.

czalgosz
04-14-2003, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by hose
The crappy relievers WERE the plan,. Boy genius Epstein with some help from Bill James determined that a dominate closer was way over valued and free agent Urbina was not offered a contract to stay with Boston.

I don't think Urbina was necessarily the answer, either - 2002 was his best season, and it wasn't exactly stellar. He's decent enough, but there's no need to go ape over him.

There were better options out there. What James taught was that always saving your best reliever for the ninth isn't efficacious, and there's evidence to support that. However, Epstein seemed to think that means having a dominant reliever wasn't important, which of course is nonsense.

That bullpen would be great if it were, say, the Pirate bullpen - a poor team trying desperately to compete and needs to roll the dice a bit. For a team like the Red Sox, who obviously can afford a top-flight reliever, it's a terrible bullpen.

hose
04-14-2003, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
I don't think Urbina was necessarily the answer, either - 2002 was his best season, and it wasn't exactly stellar. He's decent enough, but there's no need to go ape over him.

There were better options out there. What James taught was that always saving your best reliever for the ninth isn't efficacious, and there's evidence to support that. However, Epstein seemed to think that means having a dominant reliever wasn't important, which of course is nonsense.

That bullpen would be great if it were, say, the Pirate bullpen - a poor team trying desperately to compete and needs to roll the dice a bit. For a team like the Red Sox, who obviously can afford a top-flight reliever, it's a terrible bullpen.


Boston really doesn't have room for error with the Yankees in their division and 3 teams from the West all capable of winning over 95 games. By not having a solid closer, (like all contenders do) Epstein's gamble will probably keep the Red Sox from the play-offs

duke of dorwood
04-14-2003, 10:03 PM
There's lots of pitching problems out there, fans

Jjav829
04-14-2003, 10:12 PM
The idea wasn't that bad. There were no good closers available to be signed at the time, so they gambled by signing a bunch of other pitchers for a closer by committee. There are plenty of closers available in the upcoming FA class (Foulke, Guardardo, Escobar, Nen) so I'm sure Epstein will be hitting the market for a closer regardless of how the committee performs this season.

jeremyb1
04-14-2003, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
That's right, it was a SLAP lesion. My next question is how many pitchers have been diagnosed with this injury? Seems like it's relatively new.

it seems like its not diagnosed often. other than a few bright spots, howry was never withing 3 or 4 mph of where his fastball was before the injury so if he's the best recovery story out there, slap lesions are more or less guaranteed career ending injuries unless one can learn to pitch without significantly less velocity. if that's the case, you'd think slap lesions would be more highly publisized since they have such a lower recover rate than any other arm injury.

Juan Pizarro
04-15-2003, 01:30 PM
I have to laugh at how many times "Our coaches got him fixed" tends not to be the case. A lot of teams have that institutional arrogance that "he just needs better coaching," i.e. the kind that "our guys" espouse.