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RichH55
04-12-2003, 05:31 PM
For those of you out there who were so down on Carlos and his start to his season: what do you advocate doing?

I am of the mindset that you only trade him if you get a good deal. No Rick Helling!.....It doesn't make sense to deal him if he is still doing poorly in mid-may when he is at the bottom of his value.

So with Rowand struggling at the plate, wanting to get LTP some triple A at bats, and a need to get value for Lee, what can you do?

I would think any trade would have to be for a SP, but you need to get a pretty good one, who is also decently cheap, simply giving up Carlos would seem foolhardy

WhiteSoxWinner
04-12-2003, 05:40 PM
If you trade C Lee, I agree that it has to be for SP. I think our hitting will be pretty good when all is said and done, and with LTP in at AAA, we have someone we can bring in. On the other hand, you can NEVER have enough starting pitching. To trade Lee for a hitter is a lateral move (assuming that he is hitting when we would trade him).

joecrede
04-12-2003, 06:34 PM
The offense isn't good enough without Lee to justify dealing him.

Also, watching Rowand it seems like his shoulder injury has forced him to change his swing -- for the worse. I think he's slipped from a fourth to a fifth/minor league OF'er at least for the time being. He should not be starting the majority of the games in center.

pudge
04-12-2003, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
The offense isn't good enough without Lee to justify dealing him.

Also, watching Rowand it seems like his shoulder injury has forced him to change his swing -- for the worse. I think he's slipped from a fourth to a fifth/minor league OF'er at least for the time being. He should not be starting the majority of the games in center.

Rowand has been brutal. We don't have a legit CF, which is very worrisome... Carlos had to stay for now, unless Brochard can play LF and CF at the same time.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-12-2003, 07:30 PM
When Joe Borchard gets here, everything will be fine.

And speaking of dreams...

Just imagine 1-2 seasons from now what kind of outfield we could have with Borchard in RF, Ordonez in LF, and a REAL centerfielder who can play defense, lead-off, take pitches, and steal bases!

That might be the best outfield in all of baseball.

Fridaythe13thJason
04-12-2003, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Just imagine 1-2 seasons from now what kind of outfield we could have with Borchard in RF, Ordonez in LF, and a REAL centerfielder who can play defense, lead-off, take pitches, and steal bases!

That might be the best outfield in all of baseball.

Just who is this magical center fielder PHG? I would like to see him as well. :D:

RichH55
04-12-2003, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
When Joe Borchard gets here, everything will be fine.

And speaking of dreams...

Just imagine 1-2 seasons from now what kind of outfield we could have with Borchard in RF, Ordonez in LF, and a REAL centerfielder who can play defense, lead-off, take pitches, and steal bases!

That might be the best outfield in all of baseball.

I'll take the defense, lead-off(with a high OBP mind you) and take pitches in that role.....but I could give a crap if he can steal bases, I want to build a World Series winner in Chicago not the Mecca of Fantasy Baseball

PaleHoseGeorge
04-12-2003, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
Just who is this magical center fielder PHG? I would like to see him as well. :D:

I'm not sure either. However I admit I was thinking about the failed Darrin-Erstad-for-Jon-Garland trade while watching the Angels celebrate their world championship last October. :cool:

Fridaythe13thJason
04-12-2003, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I'm not sure either. However I admit I was thinking about the failed Darrin-Erstad-for-Jon-Garland trade while watching the Angels celebrate their world championship last October. :cool:

I sat in those very bleachers during the World Series last year, and salivated over the patch on the side of his cap...just imagining the cap black.

Daver
04-12-2003, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
When Joe Borchard gets here, everything will be fine.

And speaking of dreams...

Just imagine 1-2 seasons from now what kind of outfield we could have with Borchard in RF, Ordonez in LF, and a REAL centerfielder who can play defense, lead-off, take pitches, and steal bases!

That might be the best outfield in all of baseball.

Umm,you'll have to find a different LFer,because Magglio will be in right and Borchard will be in CF.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-12-2003, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by daver
Umm,you'll have to find a different LFer,because Magglio will be in right and Borchard will be in CF.

I know the Sox have been grooming Borchard for CF, but don't you think Borchard will land in a corner outfield spot sometime in his career? He is not going to be young forever.

I think the best Sox outfield in history would have Borchard in RF (he has the better arm), Magglio in LF, and the high-range-strong-arm-leadoff-man centerfielder in between the two.

I'm thinking of the Expos killer outfield of the late-70's: Dawson, Cromartie, and Valentine. Hell, the Sox would be even better than that trio.

:cool:

Daver
04-12-2003, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I know the Sox have been grooming Borchard for CF, but don't you think Borchard will land in a corner outfield spot sometime in his career? He is not going to be young forever.



He may not be young forever,but his upside at the position continues to grow,and he is a natural athlete that projects to be able to maintain a high level for a long time,I think you will see him be able to handle CF for a long time.

Outside of Willie Harris, Borchard was the fastest guy on the team in ST,with the right coaching he could easily turn into a base stealing threat,and there are few players in the major leagues that have an arm as strong or as accurate as his.

baggio202
04-12-2003, 11:08 PM
my choice for CF would have been randy winn...i think seattle got a real steal there

idseer
04-12-2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by daver
Umm,you'll have to find a different LFer,because Magglio will be in right and Borchard will be in CF.

magglio will probably be gone in 2 years .... try again.

Daver
04-12-2003, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by idseer
magglio will probably be gone in 2 years .... try again. I doubt that he will be gone,with the new CBA he will not get a better offer from another team.

Fridaythe13thJason
04-13-2003, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by baggio202
my choice for CF would have been randy winn...i think seattle got a real steal there

Randy Winn...don't be too optimistic.

Way to shoot for the stars there.

MHOUSE
04-13-2003, 01:14 AM
Hopefully Maggs won't be gone! I want him around forever. I like LTP in right and Maggs in left. We need a center fielder. Could Harris be coached into full time CF? I like Rowand for the time being as I have always said but Daver says no and he knows more than me. :D: I don't think Carlos is going to be a long-term answer in LF, he's filling the time before Borchard arrives. Trade him for SP, nothing else. But get his value up! 3-5 today...not bad.

RichH55
04-13-2003, 03:03 AM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Hopefully Maggs won't be gone! I want him around forever. I like LTP in right and Maggs in left. We need a center fielder. Could Harris be coached into full time CF? I like Rowand for the time being as I have always said but Daver says no and he knows more than me. :D: I don't think Carlos is going to be a long-term answer in LF, he's filling the time before Borchard arrives. Trade him for SP, nothing else. But get his value up! 3-5 today...not bad.


Sure Harris can be coached into a full time CF....however if you want him to reach base at an actual percentage that wouldnt be detrimental to the team...you are out of luck

dougs78
04-13-2003, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by daver
He may not be young forever,but his upside at the position continues to grow,and he is a natural athlete that projects to be able to maintain a high level for a long time,I think you will see him be able to handle CF for a long time.

Outside of Willie Harris, Borchard was the fastest guy on the team in ST,with the right coaching he could easily turn into a base stealing threat,and there are few players in the major leagues that have an arm as strong or as accurate as his.


I agree with Daver here. If Berkman can hold down center in Minute Maid, then there is no doubt Joe can play center here. I also think that in a perfect world, we'd have Borchard in right with Maggs in left, as PHG suggests. However, i think it ultimately comes down to what you have in the 3rd OFer that makes the decision. If you have a young Kenny Lofton type, who can do the things PHG talked about, then sure why not stick Borchard in Right. But given the current makeup of this team (and players around MLB in general) we will have a relatively easier time finding a productive LFer than this magical CFer.

baggio202
04-13-2003, 01:57 PM
BACK ON TOPIC....WHY I HATE CARLOS LEE!!!!..AND WH YHE IS A LOSER!!!!...2nd inning..runers on 1st and 2nd , no one out..up strolls carlos lee...perfect bunt situaton...but , we all know the debacle thats waiting to happen that is the '"carlos lee bunting experience" from last year...evidently manuel remembers all to well because after asking daubach to bunt to get the runner over he doesnt ask carlos to after brian got HBP...now , does carlos , knowing from last season how horrible his bunting was work on it in the off season???...i highly doubt it because if he did he would tried to bunt on his own and show jerry he is a team player...

now if youre not bunting in that situation its imparitive to try and take the ball to RF and move the runners up...does carlos do this???...nope..its not even a thought in his mind as he swings at a pitch on the outer half of the plate , a perfect pitch to drive to RF , and proceeds to ground into a rally killing 5-4-3 DP...carlos couldnt do the team thing..he had to be the hero...

these are the things that drive me nuts with carlos and have me just hating this guy as a ballplayer....THESE ARE THINGS THAT ANY HAS CONTROL OVER...bunting , hitting the eopposite way....ANY HITTER CAN DO OR LEARN TO DO THESE THINGS...any other ballplayer would have been so embarrassed by his efforts last year trying to bunt he would have worked his ass off to improve in that department..but i got a feeling carlos actually thinks he is in maggs catagory as a ballplayer and that a player of his stature should not be asked to bunt

this team is truggling right now...we arnt getting big hits and we astranding runners everywhere...this situation it was important to move those runners up and score firt today...another example of carlos not being able to help the team unless he is tearing the cover off the ball...isnt it joe borchard time yet???

hopefully carlos redeems himself today with as big day..but that wont change the fact that this type of play will cost the team somewhere down the road...its a great reason why the twins finished ahead of the sox the last two seasons despite the sox being the better team on paper

Lip Man 1
04-13-2003, 02:22 PM
And don't forget getting doubled up on Saturday, basically killing a potential big inning.

Lip

TornLabrum
04-13-2003, 03:54 PM
I would never EVER call upon the following people to bunt under ANY circumstances: Frank Thomas, Magglio Ordonez, Paul Konerko, Carlos Lee. You don't use the middle of your batting order to play station-to-station ball, and you sure as hell don't sacrifice them as one of your few remaining outs late in the game.

voodoochile
04-13-2003, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I would never EVER call upon the following people to bunt under ANY circumstances: Frank Thomas, Magglio Ordonez, Paul Konerko, Carlos Lee. You don't use the middle of your batting order to play station-to-station ball, and you sure as hell don't sacrifice them as one of your few remaining outs late in the game.

Actually, Carlos and Maggs are pretty decent bunters, though they use it mostly in an attempt to get a hit. Still, I agree with your point. You don't ask your middle of the order guys to bunt very often and with good reason...

MHOUSE
04-13-2003, 04:16 PM
I wouldn't get on Carlos about bunting. He's supposed to drive in runs not sacrafice. Get on Graffy about bunting. He hasn't done so well at it this season yet!

joecrede
04-13-2003, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
And don't forget getting doubled up on Saturday, basically killing a potential big inning.

Lip

Detroit's first baseman was a step off the base when he caught Graffinino's liner. Lee had no chance of getting back safely. Blame him for not hitting all you want, but he's a much more fundamentally sound player than many on this board will ever admit.

RichH55
04-13-2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Detroit's first baseman was a step off the base when he caught Graffinino's liner. Lee had no chance of getting back safely. Blame him for not hitting all you want, but he's a much more fundamentally sound player than many on this board will ever admit.


How about giving him some props for running over the catcher to score a very important run...does that count as a base running gaffe as well? Or do we not note when he does something well....like help us win a ballgame?

bc2k
04-13-2003, 06:18 PM
Every major league hitter should be able to bunt when called upon. Every one.

TornLabrum
04-13-2003, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Every major league hitter should be able to bunt when called upon. Every one.

Which begs the question, why in God's name would you want your 4-6 (and maybe even 7 in the case of the recent White Sox) guys to bunt? You're taking the bat out of their hands! What insanity would make one even consider doing that?

TornLabrum
04-13-2003, 06:31 PM
This thread is starting to remind me of the top of the 6th inning in a game I saw last weekend. The clean-up hitter successfully sacrificed with runners on first and second. The #5 hitter grounded into a fielders choice on a tap to the first baseman, the runner on third being thrown out at the plate. The #6 batter singled to right field, driving ina run, and the runner on first was thrown out at the plate.

So with men on first and second, nobody out, and the 4-5-6 batters due up, one run was scored. At least the Kane County Cougars clean-up hitter could bunt, though.

bc2k
04-13-2003, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Which begs the question, why in God's name would you want your 4-6 (and maybe even 7 in the case of the recent White Sox) guys to bunt? You're taking the bat out of their hands! What insanity would make one even consider doing that?

I don't want our current 3-7 hitters to make a habit of bunting. I would like them to have that in their arsenal, though. Take Konerko for example. Late in a ballgame, with the tying run on first with no outs, I would like to give JM the option of giving Paulie the bunt sign. With Paulie Being a high double-play candidate, and being in a slump, that would be grounds (IMO anyway) to have him bunt the fast pinch runner over to second base.

You can make the argument that JM should never take the bat away from an All-Star hitter, but I would rather take two chances at a game tying single (from the # 6 and 7 hitters), than trying to score the runner from first base.

Zednem700
04-13-2003, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
You can make the argument that JM should never take the bat away from an All-Star hitter, but I would rather take two chances at a game tying single (from the # 6 and 7 hitters), than trying to score the runner from first base.


The problem is you're assuming that the bunt attempt will be succesful. Many times, bunts don't accomplish the mission. A bad bunt or a great defensive play leads to a completely wasted out. I only advocate bunting in late innings of close games with good pitching on the mound and in the bullpen of the opposing team. Otherwise let the guy swing, yeah he might not advance the guys on base, but he's got a hell of a lot better chance to hit an extra base hit than the guy laying down the sacrifice.

bc2k
04-13-2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Zednem700
The problem is you're assuming that the bunt attempt will be succesful. Many times, bunts don't accomplish the mission. A bad bunt or a great defensive play leads to a completely wasted out. I only advocate bunting in late innings of close games with good pitching on the mound and in the bullpen of the opposing team. Otherwise let the guy swing, yeah he might not advance the guys on base, but he's got a hell of a lot better chance to hit an extra base hit than the guy laying down the sacrifice.

You're right, I am assuming the bunt attempt will be successful. That goes back to my previous post saying how all major league hitters should be able to lay down a bunt. They get 2, maybe 3 chances to succeed. Right now I don't trust our 3-7 hitters to bunt successfully, which I find disgusting. But assuming they are all major league hitters (competent bunters), they should be able bunt when called upon.

You say that the bunt often "leads to a completely wasted out." I agree that a bunt may cause one out, but how many outs does a 6-4-3 double-play cause?

If the 3-7 hitter was hitting at his peak, I probably would not have him bunt. But with a player in a slump, running with cement shoes, I probably would have him bunt.

TornLabrum
04-13-2003, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by Zednem700
The problem is you're assuming that the bunt attempt will be succesful. Many times, bunts don't accomplish the mission. A bad bunt or a great defensive play leads to a completely wasted out. I only advocate bunting in late innings of close games with good pitching on the mound and in the bullpen of the opposing team. Otherwise let the guy swing, yeah he might not advance the guys on base, but he's got a hell of a lot better chance to hit an extra base hit than the guy laying down the sacrifice.

Then there is this little point: With a runner on first and two out, fewer runners score after the sac than without a sac. In general it is a waste of one of your 27 outs.

TornLabrum
04-13-2003, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
If the 3-7 hitter was hitting at his peak, I probably would not have him bunt. But with a player in a slump, running with cement shoes, I probably would have him bunt.

And you would be wrong in doing so.

bc2k
04-13-2003, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


Then there is this little point: With a runner on first and two out, fewer runners score after the sac than without a sac. In general it is a waste of one of your 27 outs.

I don't understand this scenario. If I am reading this right, who would bunt with a runner on first and two out, conceding the third out of an inning?

TornLabrum
04-13-2003, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I don't understand this scenario. If I am reading this right, who would bunt with a runner on first and two out, conceding the third out of an inning?

D'oh! I have no idea how a two came out there! It was supposed to say no outs. And the point then becomes that it is still less likely for the runner to score on a sac than if there is no sac.

baggio202
04-14-2003, 12:58 AM
i dont expect thomas , maggs or konerko to bunt..but i do expect a 260 / 25 home run hitter to be able to lay down a sacrifice..lee should know how to bunt

bc2k
04-14-2003, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
D'oh! I have no idea how a two came out there! It was supposed to say no outs. And the point then becomes that it is still less likely for the runner to score on a sac than if there is no sac.

Ok, now we're on the same page. Not that I'm disagreeing with that statistic, but I won't believe it until I see a link...

maurice
04-14-2003, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by daver
with the right coaching he could easily turn into a base stealing threat

He's not likely to get that with the Sox, where folks become LESS of a basestealing threat the more coaching they get.

MHOUSE
04-14-2003, 04:24 PM
Have the Sox stolen a base this year? I know we've been picked off, thrown out, or caught stealing a hell of a lot more than steals.

gosox41
04-14-2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Have the Sox stolen a base this year? I know we've been picked off, thrown out, or caught stealing a hell of a lot more than steals.

Nice to see some things never change for this team.

TornLabrum
04-14-2003, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Ok, now we're on the same page. Not that I'm disagreeing with that statistic, but I won't believe it until I see a link...

It was in one of Bill James's abstracts, iirc.

fuzzy_patters
04-15-2003, 12:28 PM
I remember Maggs stealing a base. I don't remember which game it was, but he has definitely stolen one.

czalgosz
04-15-2003, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Ok, now we're on the same page. Not that I'm disagreeing with that statistic, but I won't believe it until I see a link...

It's generally accepted that a sacrifice bunt is generally a bad idea; however, noone ever said that a bunt is always a bad idea. It generally makes sense in situations where you only need one run (tie game, bottom of the ninth, etc.), because it does improve your chances of scoring one run.

However, it dramatically decreases your chances at scoring multiple runs in one inning, so bunting a lot does decrease overall scoring. That, I believe, was James' finding. (It was back in the '80s that he did this, so it might be hard to find a link).