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View Full Version : Konerko Reminds Me of Karros


joecrede
04-12-2003, 03:38 PM
In fact I'd rather have Karros, much cheaper.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-12-2003, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
In fact I'd rather have Karros, much cheaper.

Call me crazy, but I think you're going to get responses on this one.

:gulp:

WinningUgly!
04-12-2003, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Call me crazy, but I think you're going to get responses on this one.

:gulp:

It ain't worth replying to such an ignorant statement, but I guess I just did. :D:

MHOUSE
04-13-2003, 04:50 PM
I hope joecrede forgot the teal because that is a very ignorant statement and if you want Karros over PK then you're crazy. Don't you even have any stats? Put up a fight!

baggio202
04-13-2003, 04:56 PM
im no konerko jock sniffer by any stretch of the imagination..to me he is an average 1st baseman..maybe a little above..but karros sux bigtime

joecrede
04-13-2003, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
I hope joecrede forgot the teal because that is a very ignorant statement and if you want Karros over PK then you're crazy. Don't you even have any stats? Put up a fight!

Statistic: Karros is owed ~$6M, Konerko is owed ~$20M.

WhiteSoxWinner
04-13-2003, 05:04 PM
That could have something to do with the fact that Karros is 35 and in the ddecline of his career. Konerko is hitting his prime.

If you look at the career averages, I agree they are similar, with Konerko holding slight edges in just about every category, but again, you have to look at age and injury factor. Paully holds great edges in those categories.

joecrede
04-13-2003, 05:17 PM
I'd rather have Karros for one year and $14M than Konerko for the next three.

The market for first baseman is depressed, Daubach and Ortiz are just two off the top of my head that will be available in '04 who can put up Konerko-like numbers for far less money.

kermittheefrog
04-13-2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Statistic: Karros is owed ~$6M, Konerko is owed ~$20M.

I can tell this thread is going to get lengthy. Why do we have really long threads stemming for completely unfounded statements like this?

The funny thing is Karros will make more than PK. Karros makes 8 million this year whereas PK makes 6.25 million. And Karros has a 9 million dollar team option for next year while PK will make eight million next year. And if the team were to decide Karros sucks (which he does) we'd have to pay one million to buy out his contract.

This is before you even get to the fact that Karros has hit .253 with an abysmal 735 OPS in the last three years. .253 and 735! JEEZ! Even if you want to pull some silly "I don't buy into OPS argument" Karros had just 73 RBIs last year and 13 home runs. The year before? 63 and 15. Karros sucks by any measure. AND he's more expensive.

Here's my source on the conract info: http://www.bluemanc.demon.co.uk/baseball/mlbcontracts.htm

joecrede
04-13-2003, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
The funny thing is Karros will make more than PK. Karros makes 8 million this year whereas PK makes 6.25 million. And Karros has a 9 million dollar team option for next year while PK will make eight million next year. And if the team were to decide Karros sucks (which he does) we'd have to pay one million to buy out his contract.
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So the difference between Karros and Konerko is $11M instead of $14M. I still would rather have Karros.

rmusacch
04-13-2003, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
In fact I'd rather have Karros, much cheaper.

You gotta be ****ing kidding me. We are only 12 games into the season.

TornLabrum
04-13-2003, 05:36 PM
I won't flame.
I won't flame.
I won't flame.
I won't flame....but the depths of...you fill in the appropriate adjective...displayed in this thread is mind boggling.
I won't flame.
I won't flame.
I won't flame.....

voodoochile
04-13-2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
So the difference between Karros and Konerko is $11M instead of $14M. I still would rather have Karros.

Man, it's sad when the fans are so used to listening to Reinsy's monetary issues that they start to put money over production. You are a fan. Are you honestly saying that Karros gives the Sox a better chance to win than Konerko? Isn't that what being a fan is all about, rooting for the team to do whatever it takes to win?

Yeah, Konerko is a bit overpaid in today's market, but it's not a crazy amount of money based on the numbers he should put up this year.

:reinsy
"joecrede, you are my type of fan. One who understands that I just cannot afford all these expensive players that make the difference between 3rd place and a pennant. Heck, I may give you a job negotiating contracts..."

joecrede
04-13-2003, 06:08 PM
Splits over the last three years:

Daubach Vs Righties: 836 OPS
Karros Vs. Lefties: 856 OPS
Konerko Overall: 853 OPS

StepsInSC
04-13-2003, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Splits over the last three years:

Daubach Vs Righties: 836 OPS
Karros Vs. Lefties: 856 OPS
Konerko Overall: 853 OPS

That settles it!!

TornLabrum
04-13-2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Splits over the last three years:

Daubach Vs Righties: 836 OPS
Karros Vs. Lefties: 856 OPS
Konerko Overall: 853 OPS

Looks to me that if you're going to platoon Daubach and Karros, since Daubach will get more AB, you're better off with Konerko. Please tell me where my reasoning is wrong? Or at least tell why you listed these statistics if I'm misinterpreting their purpose.

joecrede
04-13-2003, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Looks to me that if you're going to platoon Daubach and Karros, since Daubach will get more AB, you're better off with Konerko. Please tell me where my reasoning is wrong? Or at least tell why you listed these statistics if I'm misinterpreting their purpose.

The difference between Konerko and a Daubach/Karros platoon is nowhere near worth the additional $11M it is costing them.

MRKARNO
04-13-2003, 06:58 PM
:sahaf

"Eric Karros is a better first baseman than the Infidel Paul Konerko"

Bobby Thigpen
04-13-2003, 07:16 PM
I've read alot of pretty ridiculous threads on this site before, but this one may just take the cake. Joe, you may have lost your mind if you would rather have Karros. I really can't argue this thread, because it's just stupid. JOE, ITS BEEN 2 WEEKS, I THINK IT'S A LITTLE TOO EARLY TO TEAR APART THE TEAM.

I would really like to respond with some witty comment, or some statistics, but I'm just stupified that this even came up.

joecrede
04-13-2003, 07:29 PM
Konerko is league average folks.

Bobby Thigpen
04-13-2003, 07:35 PM
I would disagree that he is league average. You don't get put routinely in the top 10 first basemen in the league in several publications and be league average. Besides that is not a good argument for getting rid of him to get a below league average first baseman who may have one or two more years left, in Karros. I maintain this is just a stupid argument.

Daver
04-13-2003, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Konerko is league average folks.

And your point is?

joecrede
04-13-2003, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by daver
And your point is?

There were better ways to spend the $21M they gave him.

Daver
04-13-2003, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
There were better ways to spend the $21M they gave him.

Are you signing the paychecks?


Have you taken into the consideration the fact that he is a fan favorite that draws fans to the park?



Have you even considred that at 25 years old he has yet to hit his ceiling as far as production?

Bobby Thigpen
04-13-2003, 07:51 PM
I hate to help Joe in any way, but PK is actually 27, I know because he's two months older than me. Still I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said Daver.

Please Joe, tell us what you would have done with that 21 million. Remember that you have to find a first baseman as well as whatever you're going to do. And please don't say that you think Daubach as an everyday player would do just as well as PK. THERE'S A REASON WE WERE ABLE TO PICK HIM UP FOR NOTHING- HE SUCKS.

Vsahajpal
04-13-2003, 08:04 PM
I agree with Joe Crede! Get this deal done. :D:

As for Karros' team option, it'll only trigger if he gets 550 AB, and if that happens I'll move to Kabul.

Daver
04-13-2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
I agree with Joe Crede! Get this deal done. :D:

As for Karros' team option, it'll only trigger if he gets 550 AB, and if that happens I'll move to Kabul.

No trolling Vic.



:redneck

joecrede
04-13-2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by daver
Have you taken into the consideration the fact that he is a fan favorite that draws fans to the park?

I don't think his status as a fan favorite should take precedence over improving the team.

Daver
04-13-2003, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I don't think his status as a fan favorite should take precedence over improving the team.

You didn't answer the other two questions.

joecrede
04-13-2003, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Please Joe, tell us what you would have done with that 21 million. Remember that you have to find a first baseman as well as whatever you're going to do. And please don't say that you think Daubach as an everyday player would do just as well as PK. THERE'S A REASON WE WERE ABLE TO PICK HIM UP FOR NOTHING- HE SUCKS.

First, looking at the site for contracts Kermit provided it was $23M, not $21M.

So many options . . .

One of the scenario's I might have tried would have been offer Durham 3yr/$20-1M (think he would have accepted it, he got 4yr/$27M from SF), move Jimenez from second to short, trade Valentin mostly to free up salary and then go after Kevin Millar whom the Red Sox got from the Marlins for cash considerations and signed for 2yr/$5.3M.

I'd really like to see what Durham and Jimenez could do at the top of the order.

joecrede
04-13-2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by daver
You didn't answer the other two questions.

Do I sign the paychecks? no.

Your other question was based on the false premise that Konerko is 25 and improving. He is neither.

Daver
04-13-2003, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Do I sign the paychecks? no.

Your other question was based on the false premise that Konerko is 25 and improving. He is neither.


Then why do you make a big deal about payroll?


I didn't say he was improving,don't put words in my mouth,I'm not doing that to you.

joecrede
04-13-2003, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by daver
Then why do you make a big deal about payroll?

Payroll constraints are a part of putting a team together. I wish the Sox had a $80M payroll, but they don't.

[I didn't say he was improving,don't put words in my mouth,I'm not doing that to you.

You said Konerko hadn't reached his ceiling, I disagree with your assessment.

voodoochile
04-13-2003, 10:03 PM
What does an average first baseman make these days anyway? Someone gave Karros that money. Someone is paying Giambi. Someone paid Frank. Someone paid Mo Vaughn. Yes, I know that those guys are or at some time have been a the top of their profession at 1B, but teams paid gave them their money while they were up and coming. It is the nature of the business. Also, 1B has always been a high paid position because that is traditionally one of the best hitters on any team.

We can moan and wail and cry about how the team is misspending money, but honestly speaking, Konerko was the best option the Sox had at 1B last off season. They decided it was in their best interests to bring him back for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that he is indeed a fan favorite and a team leader. Hindsight is 20/20.

He still gives the Sox the best chance to win over the long haul this season, IMO. That is all I care about. Maybe what the real problem is the payroll constraints the Sox have in place. Up the total money available for salaries to $100M and no one cares how much they are paying Paulie.

Still, if he is that easy to replace, they should be able to trade him for a solid player OTHER than Karros. I mean, why trade one over-priced average 1B for another one?

Daver
04-13-2003, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Payroll constraints are a part of putting a team together. I wish the Sox had a $80M payroll, but they don't.



You said Konerko hadn't reached his ceiling, I disagree with your assessment.

Disagree with me all you want,but DO NOT put words in my mouth,that is what the quote feature is for.

joecrede
04-13-2003, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by daver
Disagree with me all you want,but DO NOT put words in my mouth,that is what the quote feature is for.

Laziness on my part for not quoting you, but when you said he had not yet reached his ceiling for production, what did you mean?

LuvSox
04-13-2003, 10:28 PM
:threadsucks

joecrede
04-13-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Maybe what the real problem is the payroll constraints the Sox have in place. Up the total money available for salaries to $100M and no one cares how much they are paying Paulie.

I'd still care that Konerko was overpaid. :D:

Still, if he is that easy to replace, they should be able to trade him for a solid player OTHER than Karros. I mean, why trade one over-priced average 1B for another one?

Konerko's makes him virtually untradable.

MarkEdward
04-13-2003, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
First, looking at the site for contracts Kermit provided it was $23M, not $21M.

So many options . . .

One of the scenario's I might have tried would have been offer Durham 3yr/$20-1M (think he would have accepted it, he got 4yr/$27M from SF), move Jimenez from second to short, trade Valentin mostly to free up salary and then go after Kevin Millar whom the Red Sox got from the Marlins for cash considerations and signed for 2yr/$5.3M.

I'd really like to see what Durham and Jimenez could do at the top of the order.

This is actually a very good plan. I'm one of the few people who like Ray Durham on this board, and I would have loved to keep him. Kevin Millar would be a good pick up too. You'd want him as our first baseman, right? Also, instead of trading Valentin, I'd dump Graffanino and platoon Valentin and Jimenez at short. So our infield would be:
Millar
Durham
Valentin/Jimenez
Crede

We may lose a little defensively, but we gain offensively.

joecrede
04-13-2003, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
This is actually a very good plan. I'm one of the few people who like Ray Durham on this board, and I would have loved to keep him. Kevin Millar would be a good pick up too. You'd want him as our first baseman, right? Also, instead of trading Valentin, I'd dump Graffanino and platoon Valentin and Jimenez at short. So our infield would be:
Millar
Durham
Valentin/Jimenez
Crede

We may lose a little defensively, but we gain offensively.

I think Durham is one of the more underappreciated players in recent White Sox history.

The thing about this plan would be they'd have stability in the middle of the diamond (catcher with Olivo and center with Borchard) through '06 with the same cost-certainty they have this year. There really isn't a middle infielder in their system to replace Valentin next year so they're going to have to pick up his option for '05 and in '06 who knows what they'll be able to do. Millar is a very good bet to out produce Konerko over the next two years IMO.

calebhatesyou
04-13-2003, 11:52 PM
lotta coulda should woulda with the durham talk

jeremyb1
04-14-2003, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
I think Durham is one of the more underappreciated players in recent White Sox history.

The thing about this plan would be they'd have stability in the middle of the diamond (catcher with Olivo and center with Borchard) through '06 with the same cost-certainty they have this year. There really isn't a middle infielder in their system to replace Valentin next year so they're going to have to pick up his option for '05 and in '06 who knows what they'll be able to do. Millar is a very good bet to out produce Konerko over the next two years IMO.

a few things on this thread. first of all, i don't think your reasoning is terrible. first base features a fair amount of offensive talent on the diamond and konerko is probably overrated at least in certain circles. another strength to your argument you haven't really discussed is that if paully were out of the picture, instead of signing millar, a 31 year old whose career high ops is .931 (which is very good) you could just as easily move carlos (27 in june), who posted a .928 in the second half last season despite good but not great hitting due to his ability to take walks, to first base and sign an outfielder, improving our outfield defense without sacrificing much offense.

however, i do have a few problems with your argument. i for one do disagree that carlos has already reached his ceiling. i don't know what your argument is that he's reached his peak other than his slow start which isn't even an argument in my opinion its so weak. we're talking about a 27 year old player - 27 or 28 is the age when hitters are generally thought to reach their peak - that had a .950 ops last season in the first half before a terrible second half which was most likely at least somewhat related to an injury.

also, i feel like your assessments of movable and immovable contracts is way off. you think it would be impossible to deal paully but you would've traded valentin this offseason? we're talking about a player in his midthirties with what's probably below average defense and only above average offense for a ss. there's no way we could've dealt him this offseason. as for paully's contract its not huge. obviously if he doesn't perform it'll be hard to move him but the giants supposedly wanted to deal ortiz for him this past offseason.

baggio202
04-14-2003, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
First, looking at the site for contracts Kermit provided it was $23M, not $21M.

So many options . . .

One of the scenario's I might have tried would have been offer Durham 3yr/$20-1M (think he would have accepted it, he got 4yr/$27M from SF), move Jimenez from second to short, trade Valentin mostly to free up salary and then go after Kevin Millar whom the Red Sox got from the Marlins for cash considerations and signed for 2yr/$5.3M.

I'd really like to see what Durham and Jimenez could do at the top of the order.

jimenez hasnt shown the ability to play 2nd base very well so far..what makes you think he can play SS....he would be like the inverted valentin / clayton SS..he would have clayton's arm and range with jose's ability to make errors

kermittheefrog
04-14-2003, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
There were better ways to spend the $21M they gave him.

I have to agree here but the answer isn't Eric Karros. Saying Karros is the answer isn't more than trolling. If you made a detailed intelligent argument it'd be one thing but you haven't. It's not that you haven't presented any good ideas here but the first post pretty much invited flames.

maurice
04-14-2003, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Konerko Reminds Me of Karros

Well, they WERE both overrated when they were with the Dodgers organization.

[duck and cover]

joecrede
04-14-2003, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
a few things on this thread. first of all, i don't think your reasoning is terrible. first base features a fair amount of offensive talent on the diamond and konerko is probably overrated at least in certain circles. another strength to your argument you haven't really discussed is that if paully were out of the picture, instead of signing millar, a 31 year old whose career high ops is .931 (which is very good) you could just as easily move carlos (27 in june), who posted a .928 in the second half last season despite good but not great hitting due to his ability to take walks, to first base and sign an outfielder, improving our outfield defense without sacrificing much offense.

I'd have no problem moving Lee to first and getting an outfielder to replace Konerko. As I mentioned, there would've been so many options available with that money . . . I just picked one sort of off the top of my head.


however, i do have a few problems with your argument. i for one do disagree that carlos has already reached his ceiling. i don't know what your argument is that he's reached his peak other than his slow start which isn't even an argument in my opinion its so weak. we're talking about a 27 year old player - 27 or 28 is the age when hitters are generally thought to reach their peak - that had a .950 ops last season in the first half before a terrible second half which was most likely at least somewhat related to an injury.

I believe you meant Konerko here.

I think the offense would be better, more balanced, if they replaced either Konerko or Lee with a different type of hitter especially with the emergence of Crede. They are more than adequately stocked with "right-handed hitting middle-of-the-order guys." Lee's improved walk rate in the second half coupled with Konerko's stagnant walk rate made me lean toward keeping Lee.

also, i feel like your assessments of movable and immovable contracts is way off. you think it would be impossible to deal paully but you would've traded valentin this offseason? we're talking about a player in his midthirties with what's probably below average defense and only above average offense for a ss. there's no way we could've dealt him this offseason. as for paully's contract its not huge. obviously if he doesn't perform it'll be hard to move him but the giants supposedly wanted to deal ortiz for him this past offseason.

Agreed in the scenario I gave that it would be difficult, near impossible, to move Valentin's contract. The only saving grace is that he has only 1 year left.

The problem with moving Konerko is, that in all liklihood, your going to have to get a similar contract in return. That really limits who he can be dealt for IMO.

joecrede
04-14-2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I have to agree here but the answer isn't Eric Karros. Saying Karros is the answer isn't more than trolling. If you made a detailed intelligent argument it'd be one thing but you haven't. It's not that you haven't presented any good ideas here but the first post pretty much invited flames.

If in order to get out of Konerko's contract I had to take Karros I would seriously consider it. ~$14M to spend elsewhere outweighs the difference between what Konerko would produce as opposed to what a Daubach/Karros platoon would produce in my view.

Iwritecode
04-14-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
If in order to get out of Konerko's contract I had to take Karros I would seriously consider it. ~$14M to spend elsewhere outweighs the difference between what Konerko would produce as opposed to what a Daubach/Karros platoon would produce in my view.

Basically this thread is pointless. Konerko is here and will more than likely be here for quite awhile. It doesn't really matter how much he makes.

The season is only 2 weeks old. Lets see how we are doing somewhere around the AS break and see what the team weaknesses are then.

Then maybe instead of worrying about how high the payroll is, we can be hoping that JR will up the payroll instead to add some key players for the stretch run.

Remember, we are getting out-spent by the Twins who are only barely 2 years removed from almost being contracted...

TheBigHurt
04-14-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Basically this thread is pointless......

WELL if you hate this thread that much: (personally i dont, and im not allowed to)

:threadsucks

MHOUSE
04-14-2003, 04:19 PM
I am somehow impressed that this ridiculous debate raged on for four pages of posts. I think that maybe Paulie was a little overpaid in his new contract, but that last year's numbers, his unreached production ceiling, his younger age, leadership, and being a fan favorite all warranted his remaining a part of this team and being paid well for it. I have no doubt we on this board could come up with what-ifs and scenarios of how to spend the money and shuffle the team, but what's done is done and PK is here to stay. If it ain't broke then DON'T FIX IT. I am happy with the White Sox and until we're 15 games out just support the goshdang team!