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View Full Version : Can't Joe Borchard?


SoxxoS
04-10-2003, 01:36 AM
Strike out as many times as Lee, except play better defense, have more pop in his bat, and actually play with some attitude? Plus, for half the price!

I'm sick of Carlos' attitude. He seems like a pompus SOB to me, and doesn't seem dedicated to baseball. He is one of the worst baserunners in the major leagues-a direct effect of being a mental midget.

Give Carlos the rest of April. He did make some strides at the plate last year, so I am not ready to get rid of him NOW. However, if he continues to struggle, then trade him. He will get on a hot streak eventually, and KW can pull the trigger then.

Trade him for a pitcher, or another left fielder, but just don't deal with Billy Beane. Leave him alone. There are plenty of other teams to deal with. If Borchard struggles, then Rios and Daubach can handle the duties. I don't anticipate Borchard struggling, and he plays a lot better defense than Carlos would anyway. Plus, Daubach and Rios can rotate in as well. We should lose hardly any production.

I am going to give Garland and Lee until the end of the month before my "I'm sick of young players regressing" rant starts. I was going to post it now, but I deleted it and am going to wait until the end of the month, and give them the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully they prove me right.

RichH55
04-10-2003, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Strike out as many times as Lee, except play better defense, have more pop in his bat, and actually play with some attitude? Plus, for half the price!

I'm sick of Carlos' attitude. He seems like a pompus SOB to me, and doesn't seem dedicated to baseball. He is one of the worst baserunners in the major leagues-a direct effect of being a mental midget.

Give Carlos the rest of April. He did make some strides at the plate last year, so I am not ready to get rid of him NOW. However, if he continues to struggle, then trade him. He will get on a hot streak eventually, and KW can pull the trigger then.

Trade him for a pitcher, or another left fielder, but just don't deal with Billy Beane. Leave him alone. There are plenty of other teams to deal with. If Borchard struggles, then Rios and Daubach can handle the duties. I don't anticipate Borchard struggling, and he plays a lot better defense than Carlos would anyway. Plus, Daubach and Rios can rotate in as well. We should lose hardly any production.

I am going to give Garland and Lee until the end of the month before my "I'm sick of young players regressing" rant starts. I was going to post it now, but I deleted it and am going to wait until the end of the month, and give them the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully they prove me right.



What game are we at? Is it game 162 already? Man these seasons go faster and faster....back in my salad days you almost had to wait for a full 2 weeks before a guy went from potential breakout player to worst player ever

MHOUSE
04-10-2003, 08:32 AM
I agree with Soxxos. Borchard is a much better left fielder and overall could become a better hitter. Carlos just looks like he doesn't care about the team. He strolls up. Looks awful. Strikes out and then walks to the dugout with a goofy grin on his face. At least Paulie looks pissed while Frank and Maggs seem more upset as well. Carlos just looks too nonchalant like "Hey I did well last year so get off my case." He's gotta show up soon.

jeremyb1
04-10-2003, 04:34 PM
you're right. carlos averaged 84 strikeouts per season over the last three seaons but he'll surely strike out 200 times this season since he's had a bad first 8 games.

kevingrt
04-10-2003, 04:35 PM
I agree... Joe has to come up and switch with Carlos. Carlos has been horrid and needs some time off maybe the whole damn season. I bet you $100 Borchard would play better then Lee!

SoxxoS
04-10-2003, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
you're right. carlos averaged 84 strikeouts per season over the last three seaons but he'll surely strike out 200 times this season since he's had a bad first 8 games.

It's not the number of strikeouts, its the lack of intensity. If Borchard gets called up, I guarantee he busts his hump day in and day out. The only emotion I see from caballo is that damn smirk on his face walking back to the dugout, in direct relation to his lack of intensity.

He is also regressing. OK, he had more walks than strikeouts last year. That should have meant he had better pitches to hit. However, his average went DOWN.

He has a ton of talent, but doesn't have the mental capacity to utilize it. Can he be a .300 with a big OBP and hit 35/110? Yes. Will he? No.

I am not in the Sox clubhouse, but I would bet dollars to donuts he couldn't hold Mags jock strap in relation to off-season work and all around practice time. I didn't hear about Carlos working out with AROD at Miami and trying to get better. It's Carlos that should be doing that anyway, Mags is fine the way he is. Yet Mags is trying to get better...

voodoochile
04-10-2003, 05:29 PM
Carlos hit two balls really hard last night. I thought the deep drive to RCF was gone when it left his bat. Nothing is falling for him right now, but he at least hit it hard when he hit it...

RichH55
04-10-2003, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Carlos hit two balls really hard last night. I thought the deep drive to RCF was gone when it left his bat. Nothing is falling for him right now, but he at least hit it hard when he hit it...


Nope...all intensity and the 8 games prove it.....no one has ever played 8 games of bad baseball before....no one.....NO ONE!

SoxxoS
04-10-2003, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Nope...all intensity and the 8 games prove it.....no one has ever played 8 games of bad baseball before....no one.....NO ONE!

I don't know if this was pointed at me in a sarcastic way, but at least put it in teal if it was.

It's not only 8 games. It's 3 years of below average intensity.

baggio202
04-10-2003, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Nope...all intensity and the 8 games prove it.....no one has ever played 8 games of bad baseball before....no one.....NO ONE!

the problem with carlos is , history says 8 bad games in a row usually turns into atleast 8 weeks of bad games...before you know it we are 10 games out of 1st and kenny williams is dealing players and then carlos decides to show up...

we cant for carlos to pull his head out of his ass this year...we have an option year coming up on maggs..we have to try and re-sign bartolo and buhrle will be going to arbitration...we have to win and have a good year of attendance or this team will be broken up like the previous teams before it..and that would be a shame...

jeremyb1
04-10-2003, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
It's not the number of strikeouts, its the lack of intensity. If Borchard gets called up, I guarantee he busts his hump day in and day out. The only emotion I see from caballo is that damn smirk on his face walking back to the dugout, in direct relation to his lack of intensity.

He is also regressing. OK, he had more walks than strikeouts last year. That should have meant he had better pitches to hit. However, his average went DOWN.

He has a ton of talent, but doesn't have the mental capacity to utilize it. Can he be a .300 with a big OBP and hit 35/110? Yes. Will he? No.

I am not in the Sox clubhouse, but I would bet dollars to donuts he couldn't hold Mags jock strap in relation to off-season work and all around practice time. I didn't hear about Carlos working out with AROD at Miami and trying to get better. It's Carlos that should be doing that anyway, Mags is fine the way he is. Yet Mags is trying to get better...

first of all i don't like taking fans opinions on a players intensity. if carlos ran out and did some backflips in left field all of a sudden he'd be a great player? i really don't think you know carlos lee the person well enough to determine how hard he works and how hard he plays out there. i don't blast players because of looks i think i see on their faces.

as for carlos regressing, he regressed in the second half of the '01 season when pitchers realized he lacked plate discipline. he hit .228 in the second half of '01, .249 in the first half of last season, and .283 in the second half of last year. how do you define that as regressing at the plate? oh yeah i forgot, he's batting less than .100 so far this year in 8 games so we should give up on him.

SoxxoS
04-11-2003, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
first of all i don't like taking fans opinions on a players intensity. if carlos ran out and did some backflips in left field all of a sudden he'd be a great player? i really don't think you know carlos lee the person well enough to determine how hard he works and how hard he plays out there. i don't blast players because of looks i think i see on their faces.

as for carlos regressing, he regressed in the second half of the '01 season when pitchers realized he lacked plate discipline. he hit .228 in the second half of '01, .249 in the first half of last season, and .283 in the second half of last year. how do you define that as regressing at the plate? oh yeah i forgot, he's batting less than .100 so far this year in 8 games so we should give up on him.


This is why there is a lack of intensity in Carlos Lee. He has a TON of talent. No denying that. However he has not significantly in ANY batting category from 1999, minus that K/BB ratio last year. What did that good eye get him? A career low in batting average and RBI's. Even less than his rookie year, with the same number of at-bats! Since he saw all those pitches, he should have got more mistakes to hit, and that obviously didn't happen.

Look around the majors. Most of the good-great hitters struggled a bit their first year. However, they did whatever they had to do to get better. Look at Mags' numbers, and you will see what I mean.

No rookie at 22 years old who hit .292 with a .312 OBP, 16 HR and 84 RBI with a .463 slugging percentage should have a
.264 average with a .358 OBP, 80 RBI's and a .484 SLG percentage 3 years later. Period.

RichH55
04-11-2003, 03:43 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I don't know if this was pointed at me in a sarcastic way, but at least put it in teal if it was.

It's not only 8 games. It's 3 years of below average intensity.


What was his OPS last year? Like .840? And that was an improvement over the year before right? And he is still young right? What is he 26(Im not sure on that one).....He hasn't reached the age where players typically peak and he is getting better it seems to me....learning how to talk a walk last year was a big step.

Of course I know there are qualifiers with Carlos, there are with alot of guys except for the true greats. So maybe Carlos is never a guy like Valentin with the aura around him; that leadership mantle....that doesn't mean he can't help the team

Most of the anti-Lee talk is built up, but alot of it centers around this bad 8 game stretch, that is what I object to ...writing a young guy off with potential AND who has put up pretty good numbers as well.....this isnt Corey Patterson or Milton Bradley we are talking afterall....for 8 bad games

RichH55
04-11-2003, 03:48 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
This is why there is a lack of intensity in Carlos Lee. He has a TON of talent. No denying that. However he has not significantly in ANY batting category from 1999, minus that K/BB ratio last year. What did that good eye get him? A career low in batting average and RBI's. Even less than his rookie year, with the same number of at-bats! Since he saw all those pitches, he should have got more mistakes to hit, and that obviously didn't happen.

Look around the majors. Most of the good-great hitters struggled a bit their first year. However, they did whatever they had to do to get better. Look at Mags' numbers, and you will see what I mean.

No rookie at 22 years old who hit .292 with a .312 OBP, 16 HR and 84 RBI with a .463 slugging percentage should have a
.264 average with a .358 OBP, 80 RBI's and a .484 SLG percentage 3 years later. Period.


RBI's is largely a team stat and perhaps Carlos hasnt progressed as much as I would like(hell I'd like the guy to be a superstar by now)...but learning how to take a walk is a huge progression...going from a .300 level OBP to a .350 level is quite a nice leap....the slugging percentage went up, but I'm guessing that your point is that it didnt go up enough......Still looking like he should be a perenial 900+ OPS guy which is pretty impressive...

He is 25 or 26? I'm too lazy to look that up, but I don't understand the mindset to get rid of him. That doesnt mean I think he is untouchable, when the bogus Brian Lawrence for C. Lee rumor was out there I would have loved for it to be true.

But this he won't amount to anything or this 8 games proves he is a fraud is just ridiculous to me

SoxxoS
04-11-2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
RBI's is largely a team stat and perhaps Carlos hasnt progressed as much as I would like(hell I'd like the guy to be a superstar by now)...but learning how to take a walk is a huge progression...going from a .300 level OBP to a .350 level is quite a nice leap....the slugging percentage went up, but I'm guessing that your point is that it didnt go up enough......Still looking like he should be a perenial 900+ OPS guy which is pretty impressive...

He is 25 or 26? I'm too lazy to look that up, but I don't understand the mindset to get rid of him. That doesnt mean I think he is untouchable, when the bogus Brian Lawrence for C. Lee rumor was out there I would have loved for it to be true.

But this he won't amount to anything or this 8 games proves he is a fraud is just ridiculous to me

Rich-I never said he won't amount to anything. Carlos is a nice player with some potential. However, you would figure potential would be somewhat reached after 3 full years in baseball. Taking more walks is a big step, but why didn't his other numbers increase? He saw more pitches, which was supposed to mean more mistakes. Who knows.

I just don't think Carlos will reach the potential level he has. So, what I am saying is give him until Mid May. Evaluate what you can get for him, and how Borchard is doing in AAA. I am NOT jumping the gun here because he has had 9 bad games. I am looking at the progression of what he has accomplished in 3 years. Considering we can still get something good for him, and we have a possible future all-star at AAA, trading him should be something KW is looking at. Especially if we can get a nice pitcher or future SS.

jeremyb1
04-11-2003, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Rich-I never said he won't amount to anything. Carlos is a nice player with some potential. However, you would figure potential would be somewhat reached after 3 full years in baseball. Taking more walks is a big step, but why didn't his other numbers increase? He saw more pitches, which was supposed to mean more mistakes. Who knows.

I just don't think Carlos will reach the potential level he has. So, what I am saying is give him until Mid May. Evaluate what you can get for him, and how Borchard is doing in AAA. I am NOT jumping the gun here because he has had 9 bad games. I am looking at the progression of what he has accomplished in 3 years. Considering we can still get something good for him, and we have a possible future all-star at AAA, trading him should be something KW is looking at. Especially if we can get a nice pitcher or future SS.

first of all, carlos walk total improved his obp and his ops dramatically. his walks allowed him to get on base more which allowed him to score more runs and the team to win more games. that's what his improved plate discipline got him.

second of all, you should go back and reread my last post. by walking more carlos improved his batting average about 50 points from the second half of '01, and 30 points from the first half of last season. so to summarize, carlos newfound ability to walk improved his offensive production and increased his ability to hit the ball.

RichH55
04-11-2003, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Rich-I never said he won't amount to anything. Carlos is a nice player with some potential. However, you would figure potential would be somewhat reached after 3 full years in baseball. Taking more walks is a big step, but why didn't his other numbers increase? He saw more pitches, which was supposed to mean more mistakes. Who knows.

I just don't think Carlos will reach the potential level he has. So, what I am saying is give him until Mid May. Evaluate what you can get for him, and how Borchard is doing in AAA. I am NOT jumping the gun here because he has had 9 bad games. I am looking at the progression of what he has accomplished in 3 years. Considering we can still get something good for him, and we have a possible future all-star at AAA, trading him should be something KW is looking at. Especially if we can get a nice pitcher or future SS.


Its now 9 bad games??!?! Didn't Daubach play the last one? Granted Carlos had an Ofer last game, but I think that was more a product of not playing then having a "bad game" ...wouldnt you say?

In a bit of a hurry to pile the dirt on C. Lee's grave are we?

fuzzy_patters
04-11-2003, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Its now 9 bad games??!?! Didn't Daubach play the last one? Granted Carlos had an Ofer last game, but I think that was more a product of not playing then having a "bad game" ...wouldnt you say?

In a bit of a hurry to pile the dirt on C. Lee's grave are we?

I believe Rios started a game for Carlos, also. Through ten games, Carlos has actually only played 8, but he has struggled. If folks think that is justification for getting rid of a player, we'll have a whole new roster by the end of the season.

Everybody has a bad week every now and again. Carlos won't hit when it's cold. Konerko won't hit in May. Griffey could never hit the Sox, and Baldwin never lost in domes. That is baseball. People need to get used to it. The idiosyncrasies of players is no reason to get rid of them. It's the whole season that counts.

baggio202
04-12-2003, 02:15 AM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
I believe Rios started a game for Carlos, also. Through ten games, Carlos has actually only played 8, but he has struggled. If folks think that is justification for getting rid of a player, we'll have a whole new roster by the end of the season.

Everybody has a bad week every now and again. Carlos won't hit when it's cold. Konerko won't hit in May. Griffey could never hit the Sox, and Baldwin never lost in domes. That is baseball. People need to get used to it. The idiosyncrasies of players is no reason to get rid of them. It's the whole season that counts.

if carlos wont hit when its cold..then do we really want him in left field should we be fortunate enough to be playing baseball in october???..it will be just as cold then , if not colder :?:

guillen4life13
04-12-2003, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Rich-I never said he won't amount to anything. Carlos is a nice player with some potential. However, you would figure potential would be somewhat reached after 3 full years in baseball. Taking more walks is a big step, but why didn't his other numbers increase? He saw more pitches, which was supposed to mean more mistakes. Who knows.

I just don't think Carlos will reach the potential level he has. So, what I am saying is give him until Mid May. Evaluate what you can get for him, and how Borchard is doing in AAA. I am NOT jumping the gun here because he has had 9 bad games. I am looking at the progression of what he has accomplished in 3 years. Considering we can still get something good for him, and we have a possible future all-star at AAA, trading him should be something KW is looking at. Especially if we can get a nice pitcher or future SS.

I think I can diagnose a reason as to why Lee might be struggling. I don't think that it's just a coincidence that his batting numbers fell when Von Joshua was fired. Remember, in 2001, he was hitting .306 at the break, and in mid june(Home Cubs Series), he was at .313, but his average started falling soon after. I think that Ward's style might not fit Carlos'. If that's the case, Jerry Manuel, and KW should encourage him to either talk to Von and get himself straightened out, or find a personal coach who fits his style. Anyone agree with my diagnosis/solution?

baggio202
04-12-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
I think I can diagnose a reason as to why Lee might be struggling. I don't think that it's just a coincidence that his batting numbers fell when Von Joshua was fired. Remember, in 2001, he was hitting .306 at the break, and in mid june(Home Cubs Series), he was at .313, but his average started falling soon after. I think that Ward's style might not fit Carlos'. If that's the case, Jerry Manuel, and KW should encourage him to either talk to Von and get himself straightened out, or find a personal coach who fits his style. Anyone agree with my diagnosis/solution?

thats possible

or it just could be that pitchers have adjusted to him and he cant readjust???

SoxxoS
04-12-2003, 11:18 AM
Just to let everyone know, I did NOT say "bench Carlos immediately" or "trade him now" or anything like that. If you reread my original post, I said give him until the end of the month, or to Mid-May.
Evaluate what you can get for him, and trade him ifI it's worth it. He has had 3 seasons to reach his potential, and hasn't. I don't think it will ever happen.

jeremyb1
04-12-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Just to let everyone know, I did NOT say "bench Carlos immediately" or "trade him now" or anything like that. If you reread my original post, I said give him until the end of the month, or to Mid-May.
Evaluate what you can get for him, and trade him ifI it's worth it. He has had 3 seasons to reach his potential, and hasn't. I don't think it will ever happen.

well just because he hasn't "reached his potential" in your opinion, that doesn't mean he's a bad hitter. he's had some good seasons. what if he never improved? if he hit .270 with 25 hrs and 90 knocked every year its not as though he's killing us out there.

RichH55
04-12-2003, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Just to let everyone know, I did NOT say "bench Carlos immediately" or "trade him now" or anything like that. If you reread my original post, I said give him until the end of the month, or to Mid-May.
Evaluate what you can get for him, and trade him ifI it's worth it. He has had 3 seasons to reach his potential, and hasn't. I don't think it will ever happen.

Well he was what 3 for 5 today? So using our rush to judgement criteria...He's back! Hall of Fame here we come:)

RichH55
04-12-2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Just to let everyone know, I did NOT say "bench Carlos immediately" or "trade him now" or anything like that. If you reread my original post, I said give him until the end of the month, or to Mid-May.
Evaluate what you can get for him, and trade him ifI it's worth it. He has had 3 seasons to reach his potential, and hasn't. I don't think it will ever happen.

Carlos has proven that even during a bad year he is still an above average hitter.....if he is still struggling by mid-may that is cause for concern, but dealing him at what might be the absolute bottom of his value doesn't make much sense to me, especially because I like getting Joe some triple A time, and playing til mid-May isn't exactly the point of that.

Plus what if Rowand is still struggling then? Dealing him in Mid-May might posibly be the worst possible option for dealing with the situation