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Lip Man 1
04-09-2003, 11:40 PM
"If we get this type of outing three or four down the road, then there would be some things we have to discuss." --Jerry Manuel issuing a "warning" to Jon Garland.

doublem23
04-10-2003, 01:07 AM
Yet, he's gotten the same crap out of Carlos 8 games in a row and no warning.

RichH55
04-10-2003, 03:48 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
Yet, he's gotten the same crap out of Carlos 8 games in a row and no warning.


How many games is C Lee going to start and how many is Garland going to start.....How many days can you get away with a bad day from your LF and how many can you get away with a bad day from your SP? Who had the better year last year? Is not hitting more prone to cold streaks that are abberations? See if you can spot the difference yourself

delben91
04-10-2003, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
Yet, he's gotten the same crap out of Carlos 8 games in a row and no warning.

"Paging Mr. Daubach...paging Mr. Daubach...please pick up a white courtesy phone."

Hullett_Fan
04-10-2003, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
"If we get this type of outing three or four down the road, then there would be some things we have to discuss." --Jerry Manuel issuing a "warning" to Jon Garland.


Great. But, Jerry who are you going to put in the rotation after you bench Garland???? Danny Wright? Ugh.

This team will eventually start hitting the ball, it's the staff that worries me. Hopefully Stewart and Loaiza will continue to throw well.

moochpuppy
04-10-2003, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
Hopefully Stewart and Loaiza will continue to throw well.

Estaban Loaiza, the Cal Eldred of 2003.

Lip Man 1
04-10-2003, 11:20 AM
Hullett:

That's an interesting point that you bring up. That's one of the things that I was trying to talk about (with others) in the spring. That lack of quality depth on the Sox staff.

Basically it was "hooted" down, that depth was overrated. The pitchers I suggested the Sox at least look at were statistically decrepit according to some.

Hopefully we don't have to find out who was right.

Lip

voodoochile
04-10-2003, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Hullett:

That's an interesting point that you bring up. That's one of the things that I was trying to talk about (with others) in the spring. That lack of quality depth on the Sox staff.

Basically it was "hooted" down, that depth was overrated. The pitchers I suggested the Sox at least look at were statistically decrepit according to some.

Hopefully we don't have to find out who was right.

Lip

I think everyone would love to see more pitching depth, but the reality was the Sox already acquired some (Loaiza, White, Gordon, etc.) and weren't going to get more. Wishing doesn't make it so. Why set yourself up when you know you will only be disappointed.

maurice
04-10-2003, 12:08 PM
This is a particularly strange time to contend that the Sox pitching staff (with its 3.78 ERA) lacks "quality depth." The Sox are .500 because their very good offense has been average so far. If the Sox have a problem with the depth of their starting pitching, it hasn't manifested itself:

Buehrle - 1.20 ERA
Loaiza - 2.70 ERA
Stewart - 2.70 ERA
Colon - 3.75 ERA

If Garland continues to struggle over his next several starts, either Wright or Rauch will be ready to take his spot in the rotation. As for the pen, only Gordon (a trusty vet) has an ERA over 3.60. (Other trusty vets around the league who changed teams this year: Helling - 7.36 ERA; Rogers - 6.75 ERA.)

The effort some expend trying to express a positive in negative terms is truly disgusting.

Hullett_Fan
04-10-2003, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by maurice
This is a particularly strange time to contend that the Sox pitching staff (with its 3.78 ERA) lacks "quality depth." The Sox are .500 because their very good offense has been average so far. If the Sox have a problem with the depth of their starting pitching, it hasn't manifested itself:

Buehrle - 1.20 ERA
Loaiza - 2.70 ERA
Stewart - 2.70 ERA
Colon - 3.75 ERA

If Garland continues to struggle over his next several starts, either Wright or Rauch will be ready to take his spot in the rotation. As for the pen, only Gordon (a trusty vet) has an ERA over 3.60. (Other trusty vets around the league who changed teams this year: Helling - 7.36 ERA; Rogers - 6.75 ERA.)

The effort some expend trying to express a positive in negative terms is truly disgusting.


Maurice, I'll agree that this offense has been sputtering but when ever the offense had an off day in 2000 we won the games in which we has strong outings by our starters...now we're on a .500 pace.

It is very likely that Loaiza and Stewart will not have ERAs under 3 all season (probably closer to 4). This offense will really have to improve to make up for all the good starts they've pissed away.

My point was that we've got the best 5 starters on the team in the rotation now. Replacing any of them with Wright, Rauch, etc. would be a downgrade IMO. Would be nice to have another vet starter for the pennant race...we'll see who's available. I'm confident the 'O' will have gotten it together by then...but hopefully we won't have to score 6 to 8 runs against better pitchers than the Royals, Tigers and Indians have put on the hill against us so far.

Juan Pizarro
04-10-2003, 04:26 PM
Yeah, that Paul Byrd would have been great about now...


on the DL.

maurice
04-10-2003, 05:19 PM
Sorry if it sounded like my stronger comments were directed at you, Hullett. They weren't. I just figured that Lip would (1) wait until the Sox staff pitches badly before writing, "I told you the Sox staff would pitch badly," or (2) wait until some of the older free agents pitch well before writing, "I told you we should have signed one of those FAs." Then again, Lip's logic does not resemble our Earth logic.

I agree with pretty much everything in your last post except:
My point was that we've got the best 5 starters on the team in the rotation now. Replacing any of them with Wright, Rauch, etc. would be a downgrade IMO.

If you asked KW (or anyone else on the Sox staff) before spring training who the Sox best five starters are, he probably would have listed MB, BC, DW, JG, and JR. EL and JS would not have made the cut. As of today, we still have DW and JR in reserve. All indications are that all seven starters are healthy and all seven starters are young enough that they should not be on the downside of their careers. That doesn't give us the best staff in the league, but it puts us in much better shape than most contenders.

Lip Man 1
04-11-2003, 12:11 AM
Maurice:

Sorry but many of the fans out there insisted that Rauch was better then Loazia and should have been given the job outright.

I guess they were a little wrong there.

I don't have the confidence in Rauch that you apparently do. Until proven otherwise Wright is damaged goods...you are going to rely on him?

Hullett's points are valid. The fact that you interpet them as being "positive" or "negative" has no value.

It's not WHO says something but WHAT they say.

Fortunately we'll find out in September who was right and who was wrong.

If you are shown to be correct I will apologize for my "negativity." If I (along with others) are shown to be (unfortunately) correct, will you give us the same courtesy?

Just wondering.

Lip

baggio202
04-11-2003, 12:46 AM
i wouldnt worry too much about warning from JM...remember when he benched clayton last year and moved jose to SS??..two days later choice was back on SS and valentin was probably busting up the clubhouse

RichH55
04-11-2003, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by baggio202
i wouldnt worry too much about warning from JM...remember when he benched clayton last year and moved jose to SS??..two days later choice was back on SS and valentin was probably busting up the clubhouse


Anything to support the busting up the clubhouse comment? Or just an offhanded comment? I seem to recall Royce being the clubhouse cancer and Jose being the unofficial captain of the team

Hullett_Fan
04-11-2003, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by maurice



If you asked KW (or anyone else on the Sox staff) before spring training who the Sox best five starters are, he probably would have listed MB, BC, DW, JG, and JR. EL and JS would not have made the cut. As of today, we still have DW and JR in reserve. All indications are that all seven starters are healthy and all seven starters are young enough that they should not be on the downside of their careers. That doesn't give us the best staff in the league, but it puts us in much better shape than most contenders.

IMO, defintely think that Rauch and Wright need a few starts at AAA before we can declare them healthy and ready to replace anyone in the rotation that happens to falter. Rauch looked good in his first AAA start...not sure if Wright has thrown yet. Again, I hope it doesn't come down to that. Right now I'm more concerned about our hole in LF.

maurice
04-11-2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Sorry but many of the fans out there insisted that Rauch was better then Loazia and should have been given the job outright.

I would venture that every GM in baseball agrees that JR is "better than" EL, as evidenced by EL's minor league deal and some recent, negative comments about EL by anonymous GM's reported recently. The question on JR was his health, not his talent. Right now, all the evidence shows that he's fully recovered from surgery and pitching very well. I'm glad we do not have a trusty vet killing the club with a 6+ ERA in his place.

My position was (and remains) that EL was a great, cheap insurance policy, who KW could plug into the #5 spot until the spot received regular turns in the rotation, at which point JR would be inserted after getting regular turns in AAA. I also was (and am) against signing mediocre pitchers who would insist on a guaranteed spot in the rotation all season, or bad pitchers under any circumstances. The Sox apparently agreed.

EL got bumped up to #4 when DW was held out of the rotation. Now we are in the enviable position of having two talented young starters in reserve (both of whom are significantly better than Rick fricking Helling) . . . a/k/a enough pitching depth to have a solid five-man rotation even if two of the current starters tank or get injured, and the money and players to acquire a good starting pitcher once teams start falling out of contention. That's a very good thing. I'm not sure why an Sox fan would go out of his way to portray it as a negative.

Until proven otherwise Wright is damaged goods...you are going to rely on him?

As my #6 starter? Certainly. BTW: I don't recall seeing your name on the list of top surgeons who examined DW. They all concluded that he's not "damaged goods" and should be ready to start soon. But why should we believe them? Dr. James Andrews knows nothing about the health of athletes he actually examined compared to your god-like power of conjecture.

Hullett's points are valid.

Certainly. I said as much in my previous post.

If you are shown to be correct I will apologize for my "negativity." If I (along with others) are shown to be (unfortunately) correct, will you give us the same courtesy?

Sure. I'll do it right now and get it out of the way. Lip, I hereby apologize in the possible-but-unlikely event that JR, DW, JS, and any starting pitcher acquired by KW before the trade deadline all pitch worse than Rick Helling come September. Heck, I won't even say anything if I'm right, so long as you agree not to gloat any further when the facts have not verified your predictions.

Lip Man 1
04-11-2003, 11:00 AM
Maurice:

We are just going to have to agree to disagree.

Bottom line I want the Sox to win (as do you), I just don't think going the "cheap" route is going to do it hoping the kids pitch to their potential. It didn't work in 01, and it didn't work in 02.

Personally I'd be happy winning the division, and winning a home playoff game.

We'll see what happens.

Lip

Unregistered
04-11-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Personally I'd be happy winning the division, and winning a home playoff game.
Of course you would, so then you can write yet another post about the shortcomings of the team and how they just didnt spend enough money to compete in the playoffs. If they actually DID go to the World Series and WIN, you'd have NOTHING to complain about. And then what would you have to talk about, Lip? :D:

Lip Man 1
04-12-2003, 01:10 AM
I'd talk about how I got drunk for three days celebrating.

Lip