PDA

View Full Version : Sox should've traded Carlos when his stock was high!


ssang
04-10-2003, 12:07 AM
The Sox should've traded Lee when his stock was actually high. This guy just does not have enough upside for the Sox to just sit around and wait for him to suddenly click. First off, they're a pennant contender so they need to maximize their chance now. Waiting for Lee to develop can and will cost us valuable wins THIS SEASON. Secondly, Lee has only proved one thing....he's never gonna reach "star" status. Is it really worth it to keep him in the lineup when the best he seems capable of is .290, 25, and 95 with shoddy defense, and horrendous baserunning??? And that's the ABSOULTE BEST that I see Lee performing. Lee hasn't come close to proving that he can even accomplish that! The Sox should've traded Lee for pitching.....something.....hell, ANYTHING, when his stock was higher. If Sox management had just a little sense then they would've realized that he was, and obviously still is, very expendable. I mean, we already have an overwhelmingly right-handed lineup filled with similar "solid but unspectacular" righties (Konerko, Thomas, Lee, and Alomar). So what does Lee really add to this team? The sad part is that I don't think the White Sox have realized this yet.

MHOUSE
04-10-2003, 12:12 AM
Well he certainly hasn't done so well this year yet, but I wouldn't worry until a little later in the season before i write him off. He had a stellar second half last year and his defense has improved last two years. I think he has potential but he IS running out of time to come around and be consistently productive. I'd say he needs good stats by the all star break or he should be gone by the trade deadline. That's my timetable anyways.

ode to veeck
04-10-2003, 12:24 AM
waaaayyyyyyy too early to be writing off Caballo, the great Cubbie killer of the last two years

290, 25, 95, I'd take it, even though he's got the range of a lawn chair in left field, his clutch hits map right alongside those of Jose when he's on

baggio202
04-10-2003, 03:36 AM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Well he certainly hasn't done so well this year yet, but I wouldn't worry until a little later in the season before i write him off. He had a stellar second half last year and his defense has improved last two years. I think he has potential but he IS running out of time to come around and be consistently productive. I'd say he needs good stats by the all star break or he should be gone by the trade deadline. That's my timetable anyways.

his defense hasnt improved..he just plays deeper now...next time you go to comiskey check how much green is behind lee in LF then check the green behind rowand and maggs....right now you would have to shoot the ball out of RPG launcher to get it over carlos' head and have it stay in the park...he will give up alot of duck snort this year because of how deep he plays

RichH55
04-10-2003, 04:52 AM
Originally posted by baggio202
his defense hasnt improved..he just plays deeper now...next time you go to comiskey check how much green is behind lee in LF then check the green behind rowand and maggs....right now you would have to shoot the ball out of RPG launcher to get it over carlos' head and have it stay in the park...he will give up alot of duck snort this year because of how deep he plays


I've been waiting for 2 years now for someone to give me a coherent argument to how LF is soooo important defensively and who you consider to be the best say 5-10 defensive LFs in the game. It could quite easily be considered the least important defense position and the people who play there generally arent Willie Mays defensively

MHOUSE
04-10-2003, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by baggio202
his defense hasnt improved..he just plays deeper now...next time you go to comiskey check how much green is behind lee in LF then check the green behind rowand and maggs....right now you would have to shoot the ball out of RPG launcher to get it over carlos' head and have it stay in the park...he will give up alot of duck snort this year because of how deep he plays

Thanks for the explanation. I'll look at his positioning closer next time. I just noticed that overall he wasn't as awful as a couple of years ago. But now that you mention it he does give up a lot of short bloopers to left. Plus his arm SUCKS. But anyways why not bring up Borchard if C. Lee can't cut it.

harwar
04-10-2003, 10:18 AM
I do happen to know that C Lee absolutely hates cold weather.Lets wait and see how things develop after is been warm awhile.

thecell
04-10-2003, 10:27 AM
Cut the guy some slack. We've played 8 games! Carlos will break out of this slump just fine. As far as his defense is concerned, he made only one error last year and had a .996 fielding percentage. He's a career .282 hitter and averages 22 homers and 85 RBI's a year. Those are some pretty solid numbers for a 26 year old player.

balz1472
04-10-2003, 11:06 AM
Considering this guy is supposed to be one of our power hitters, he is definitely starting to look like one with his Rob Deer-like numbers!

Check this out:

8 G
26 ABs
2 H
2 BB
11 Ks
2 TOTAL BASES
ZERO RBIS
ZERO HOMERUNS
.077 ba

I know that it has only been 8 games, but come on he is a joke up there. The guy looks like he has no clue what he's going to do with the pitch when it comes to him.

I have always been a CLee supporter, but it is making it hard for me to argue that with these numbers. Borchard might strike out a lot, but he might at least do something more that Carlos.

calebhatesyou
04-10-2003, 01:44 PM
harwar:

the guy hates the cold? he plays in Chicago. He's from Panama...THE COUNTRY. it'll be cold to him until it hits 80-85 on a regular bases. he need to be a pro and just slap some the otherway instead of just taking his three hacks and sitting. if he's not doing something at the plate, then he's really doing nothing he need to show some life up there and what i've seen is crap. i do like C.Lee, and wish him well, but his plate apperances is bad for the sox and painful to watch game after game. i hope he come out it before things get dire (we need revenge on KC-the 15th, and we start up with the twins the 25th).

RichH55
04-10-2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by balz1472
Considering this guy is supposed to be one of our power hitters, he is definitely starting to look like one with his Rob Deer-like numbers!

Check this out:

8 G
26 ABs
2 H
2 BB
11 Ks
2 TOTAL BASES
ZERO RBIS
ZERO HOMERUNS
.077 ba

I know that it has only been 8 games, but come on he is a joke up there. The guy looks like he has no clue what he's going to do with the pitch when it comes to him.

I have always been a CLee supporter, but it is making it hard for me to argue that with these numbers. Borchard might strike out a lot, but he might at least do something more that Carlos.



8 games - enough said....How many guys are still hitting over 400 out there? Randy Johnson's era is over 4........So is he done too? Is so guy who has a .400+ average...say Alou now a Hall of Famer.....seriously we need some kind of sanity out here making huge huge jumps based on 8 games

ssang
04-10-2003, 02:53 PM
It may just be 8 games, but have you actually been watching his plate appearances? He looks bad up there and he shows NO signs of improvemesnt! Bottom Line: He's a medicore ballplayer.

RichH55
04-10-2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by ssang
It may just be 8 games, but have you actually been watching his plate appearances? He looks bad up there and he shows NO signs of improvemesnt! Bottom Line: He's a medicore ballplayer.


Did you read my post? 8 games to make him a medicore ballplayer is absolutely ridiculous......if he had a slump, and that is all this is after a hot month no one would say anything.....If he goes on a tear for say the next 8 games, what some might foolish call a hot streak when they don't have your obervational powers, does that mean Carlos is not a medicore ballplayer but then a Hall of Famer because he hit the cover off the ball for 8 games?


ITS 8 FREAKIN GAMES!

TheBigHurt
04-10-2003, 02:57 PM
IF shoulda's and woulda were candy nuts well has does that song go??????

MHOUSE
04-10-2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by ssang
It may just be 8 games, but have you actually been watching his plate appearances? He looks bad up there and he shows NO signs of improvemesnt! Bottom Line: He's a medicore ballplayer.

Exactly! 8 games or 80 games he still looks like a moron up there. That isn't a good sign.

jeremyb1
04-10-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Exactly! 8 games or 80 games he still looks like a moron up there. That isn't a good sign.

he looks bad up there. real bad. fine. i don't think any one is contesting that. you haven't given any argument why if you're bad for the first 8 games or if you're incredibly good its meaningless yet if you look terrible it means you're a bad player. give it up.

FarmerAndy
04-10-2003, 06:27 PM
I'm sure Carlos won't look this bad all year, but I don't think he is going to develope into the superstar that some people think he is going to be either.

I don't know about anybody else, but I would really like to see Brian Daubach get some more playing time. This guy has been a pretty consistant hitter over the last four years in Boston. I thought it was a great move by the ChiSox to pick him up, and I'd hate to see him rot on the bench. If Jerry only puts him in every now and then when we are trailing in the 9th inning with nobody on base, then we may not get to much out of him. But give this guy some more consistant AB's, and you can bet he'll produce.

Champ Summers
04-10-2003, 06:30 PM
"If ifs and buts were candy and nuts..."

RichH55
04-10-2003, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
I'm sure Carlos won't look this bad all year, but I don't think he is going to develope into the superstar that some people think he is going to be either.

I don't know about anybody else, but I would really like to see Brian Daubach get some more playing time. This guy has been a pretty consistant hitter over the last four years in Boston. I thought it was a great move by the ChiSox to pick him up, and I'd hate to see him rot on the bench. If Jerry only puts him in every now and then when we are trailing in the 9th inning with nobody on base, then we may not get to much out of him. But give this guy some more consistant AB's, and you can bet he'll produce.

Yeah....but just assume Daubach plays 8 bad games then too.....then we have to take him out back and shoot him as well....I dont think we can take that chance:)

baggio202
04-11-2003, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
I've been waiting for 2 years now for someone to give me a coherent argument to how LF is soooo important defensively and who you consider to be the best say 5-10 defensive LFs in the game. It could quite easily be considered the least important defense position and the people who play there generally arent Willie Mays defensively

here is an my attempt at a coherent arguement for lf being important defensively...

lets say the bases are loaded and a ground ball is hit to SS and the ss fumbles it...its one base and one run given up...now lets say carlos is in LF with the bases loaded and a fly ball is hit towards the gap and we here DJ say (which he says all too often) ..."oh ho , carlos turned the wrong way on that ball" , or "carlos got a bad jump on that ball" , and it one hops the fence...that little blunder just cost our pitcher 3 earned runs...

i wont even go into his girly arm in left and how easily runner go from 1st to 3rd on a base hit to lf and how that hurts us defensively...

regaurdless of what position you play , if you can play good defense you can help your team when youre mired in a 1 for 20 slump...carlos cant play defense and he cant run the bases and he cant do any of the little things (bunt , give up an at bat to hit behind the runners, ect) that help your team win...so if he is not consistently hitting 300 -30 -100 he is not helping your team...when he is mired in the kind of slump he is now he is deadly to a winning effort...winningballplayers know how to contribute when they arnt hitting well...can anyone say that about carlos???

RichH55
04-11-2003, 04:58 AM
Originally posted by baggio202
here is an my attempt at a coherent arguement for lf being important defensively...

lets say the bases are loaded and a ground ball is hit to SS and the ss fumbles it...its one base and one run given up...now lets say carlos is in LF with the bases loaded and a fly ball is hit towards the gap and we here DJ say (which he says all too often) ..."oh ho , carlos turned the wrong way on that ball" , or "carlos got a bad jump on that ball" , and it one hops the fence...that little blunder just cost our pitcher 3 earned runs...

i wont even go into his girly arm in left and how easily runner go from 1st to 3rd on a base hit to lf and how that hurts us defensively...

regaurdless of what position you play , if you can play good defense you can help your team when youre mired in a 1 for 20 slump...carlos cant play defense and he cant run the bases and he cant do any of the little things (bunt , give up an at bat to hit behind the runners, ect) that help your team win...so if he is not consistently hitting 300 -30 -100 he is not helping your team...when he is mired in the kind of slump he is now he is deadly to a winning effort...winningballplayers know how to contribute when they arnt hitting well...can anyone say that about carlos???


If LF is so uber-important why do such terrible fielders play it? If this 3 earned run argument is so prevalent why aren't the Andruw Joness of the world in LF? I do not think that Carlos Lee (well he isnt a great fielder) is several runs worse then an average LF. Pitching and Hitting wins championships has always been my contention.

How many years have we heard Oakland doesnt play great D? Jeter is subpar defensively? What was Paul O'neil a gold glover at 38? When Arizona won the championship who was the SS?


And if you assume you have a .300-30-100 guy...what the hell are you doing bunting with the guy?

And when you mention Carlos's baserunning gaffes....what you mean is that he isn't the best at it, that he costs us a couple(a handful maybe) of runs with that over the course of a season. When you say he "Can't run the bases" it comes off as if you think he runs to the wrong base or just stops running in the middle of it. Being slightly below average at an aspect of the game like baserunning is not helpful, nor does it make you the anti-christ

Here's another question: Is not LF the least important defensive position on the diamond?

baggio202
04-11-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
If LF is so uber-important why do such terrible fielders play it? If this 3 earned run argument is so prevalent why aren't the Andruw Joness of the world in LF? I do not think that Carlos Lee (well he isnt a great fielder) is several runs worse then an average LF. Pitching and Hitting wins championships has always been my contention.

How many years have we heard Oakland doesnt play great D? Jeter is subpar defensively? What was Paul O'neil a gold glover at 38? When Arizona won the championship who was the SS?


And if you assume you have a .300-30-100 guy...what the hell are you doing bunting with the guy?

And when you mention Carlos's baserunning gaffes....what you mean is that he isn't the best at it, that he costs us a couple(a handful maybe) of runs with that over the course of a season. When you say he "Can't run the bases" it comes off as if you think he runs to the wrong base or just stops running in the middle of it. Being slightly below average at an aspect of the game like baserunning is not helpful, nor does it make you the anti-christ

Here's another question: Is not LF the least important defensive position on the diamond?

because you have to play these guys that can hit but cant field somewhere...the only reason the weaker fielders are in LF instead of RF is because of arm strength..the same can be said for 1st base over 3rd base...but because weaker defensive players play these positions doesnt mean defense in those spots arnt important...if that was the case why would you have defensive replacements for these guys when youre winning late???...if its not important???....

you cant tell me all the extra base hits that jacque jones in lf for minnesota takes away that average LF's cant get to doesnt help his team...taking away a base clearing double with the bases juiced because you have the best defensive LF in baseball and he makes a great catch that no other or very few other LF's would have made is just as important as a LF that hits a 3 run double...its a 3 run swing either way...

is LF the least important defensive position???...id probably say its first base...because you rarely have to throw and range isnt as important at first as it is in LF...but again..a guy like scott spiezio who has great range at first and makes a play no other 1st baseman could make that saves 3 runs is just as important as getting a 3 rbi hit...

i just dont follow you logic saying defense in LF is not important...if carlos lee turned the wrong way on a ball in game 7 of the world series with the sox leading by a run in the 9th and 2 outs with runners on 2nd and 3rd, how important would defense in LF be then???

on carlos' baserunning..ive actually seen him do some of the things you mentioned...carlos is on 2nd base and val is on the 3rd...1 out..ground ball hit to 3rd...val breaks for home..the 3rd baseman throws home and they get val by a step...carlos is still on 2nd base...hello??????...just his getting picked off or not being able to steal are not the only gaffe's he makes....he really is clueless out there...

RichH55
04-11-2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
because you have to play these guys that can hit but cant field somewhere...the only reason the weaker fielders are in LF instead of RF is because of arm strength..the same can be said for 1st base over 3rd base...but because weaker defensive players play these positions doesnt mean defense in those spots arnt important...if that was the case why would you have defensive replacements for these guys when youre winning late???...if its not important???....

you cant tell me all the extra base hits that jacque jones in lf for minnesota takes away that average LF's cant get to doesnt help his team...taking away a base clearing double with the bases juiced because you have the best defensive LF in baseball and he makes a great catch that no other or very few other LF's would have made is just as important as a LF that hits a 3 run double...its a 3 run swing either way...

is LF the least important defensive position???...id probably say its first base...because you rarely have to throw and range isnt as important at first as it is in LF...but again..a guy like scott spiezio who has great range at first and makes a play no other 1st baseman could make that saves 3 runs is just as important as getting a 3 rbi hit...

i just dont follow you logic saying defense in LF is not important...if carlos lee turned the wrong way on a ball in game 7 of the world series with the sox leading by a run in the 9th and 2 outs with runners on 2nd and 3rd, how important would defense in LF be then???

on carlos' baserunning..ive actually seen him do some of the things you mentioned...carlos is on 2nd base and val is on the 3rd...1 out..ground ball hit to 3rd...val breaks for home..the 3rd baseman throws home and they get val by a step...carlos is still on 2nd base...hello??????...just his getting picked off or not being able to steal are not the only gaffe's he makes....he really is clueless out there...


Please do me a favor and point out every ball that you think Carlos didn't get that a good defensive LF would have....I bet it is alot less than you imagine.

Also, you admit that teams play those big bats in LF to hide them....if this Game 7 scenario was so prevalent then I bet we would see less Carlos Lees in the game.....He makes almost all the routine plays you could hope him to make, though he is almost never going to make the "great" play.

Bringing in a late inning defensive player is a good idea, I have never argued against it......But if that were the most important thing in the game you would play that guy for the first 7 innings too.....The name of the game is to score more runs than the other team.


BTW I'm wondering who you think the top 5 defensive LF(who play everyday in LF) are in the game

czalgosz
04-11-2003, 05:32 PM
Jacque Jones is probably the best defensive LF in the game. Terrence Long is up there, too.

I'd rank the positions this way in terms of defensive importance --

1. C
2. SS
3. CF
4. 2B
5. 3B
6. RF
7. LF
8. 1B
9. P

JUGGERNAUT
04-11-2003, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Jacque Jones is probably the best defensive LF in the game. Terrence Long is up there, too.

I'd rank the positions this way in terms of defensive importance --

1. C
2. SS
3. CF
4. 2B
5. 3B
6. RF
7. LF
8. 1B
9. P

3. 2B
4. CF

You could make the argument with so many parks having short RF porches now that LF has more importance but I think that's negated by the weakness in range for most 1B.

I would imagine if you compare Maggs TC's to Lee's & normalize so they played the same number of games Maggs' is probably higher.