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View Full Version : 3 Things From Tonights Game vs Cleve.


ChiSoxBobette
04-09-2003, 09:49 PM
Can someone tell me why Jose Valentine was'nt playing tonight, Jerry Manuel doing the same stuff he did last year with our lineup.
When are they going to sit Carlos Lee - does he have any hits besides the infield hit he had against Detroit over the weekend. And I know this one will catch me all kinds of crap , but here it is folks, how long do we keep trotting Jon Garland out there. last year I know I was all over the guys case but he may be only 23 years old but hes been pitching in the majors for 3 years now. Tonight before we can get up in the 2nd inning we're already down by 2 , we get one back and he gives up a dinger. If Loiaza & this kid Stewart keep pitching good I say we give Wright a chance to take Garlands spot and if he can't take it then we move Wright to the bullpen , I've heard Farmer & Rooney say Wright would do great as a reliever. Then I think the road ends for Garland. I just don't think he has the smarts to pitch as a starter. I know theres going to be someone who's going to get all over me but tonight I really thought he would come out and establish himself and dominate the indians. Tonight though he was the same old Garland. I would also think that Williams would'nt go much farther with Manuel and his tinkering. He should just stick with a lineup and let it play. Oh well there you are take you're best shots I know theres a lot of Garland fans out there , I just wish he would make me one of them.
Go White Sox!

jeremyb1
04-09-2003, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
Can someone tell me why Jose Valentine was'nt playing tonight, Jerry Manuel doing the same stuff he did last year with our lineup.
When are they going to sit Carlos Lee - does he have any hits besides the infield hit he had against Detroit over the weekend. And I know this one will catch me all kinds of crap , but here it is folks, how long do we keep trotting Jon Garland out there. last year I know I was all over the guys case but he may be only 23 years old but hes been pitching in the majors for 3 years now. Tonight before we can get up in the 2nd inning we're already down by 2 , we get one back and he gives up a dinger. If Loiaza & this kid Stewart keep pitching good I say we give Wright a chance to take Garlands spot and if he can't take it then we move Wright to the bullpen , I've heard Farmer & Rooney say Wright would do great as a reliever. Then I think the road ends for Garland. I just don't think he has the smarts to pitch as a starter. I know theres going to be someone who's going to get all over me but tonight I really thought he would come out and establish himself and dominate the indians. Tonight though he was the same old Garland. I would also think that Williams would'nt go much farther with Manuel and his tinkering. He should just stick with a lineup and let it play. Oh well there you are take you're best shots I know theres a lot of Garland fans out there , I just wish he would make me one of them.
Go White Sox!

i'm not going to attack you i just think you're failing to remember that garland is 23 years old. if you have the ability to definitively determine whether or not 23 year olds will have successful careers, you could make a lot of money in baseball. i don't think garland pitched a terrible game today. did you watch/listen to the first inning? he gave up a broken bat single, a pop up that fell into right field, and an infield hit. after that he gave up two more single runs and then retired 9 guys in a row before giving up a leadoff double he didn't allow to score. i don't think that's reason to call for him to be removed from the rotation. he'll get over 30 starts this season no reason to get two upset about two of them.

Soxboyrob
04-09-2003, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
you're failing to remember that garland is 23 years old. if you have the ability to definitively determine whether or not 23 year olds will have successful careers

aaaarrrrgggghhh. The ol' "Garland is still young" excuse. We can't use that anymore. If he's too young to be good or consistent, then why isn't he still in the minors? This is his fourth year on the Sox. By the time he's any good, he'll be leaving for free agency and we'll have had to sit through his struggles for 6 yrs. I agree w/ you that he didn't pitch an entirely bad game tonight but it wasn't good either. It was a #5 starter type of game, IMO. He also gave up some long blasts that were held up by strong winds in rightcenter field.

bc2k
04-09-2003, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
Can someone tell me why Jose Valentine was'nt playing tonight, Jerry Manuel doing the same stuff he did last year with our lineup.
When are they going to sit Carlos Lee - does he have any hits besides the infield hit he had against Detroit over the weekend. And I know this one will catch me all kinds of crap , but here it is folks, how long do we keep trotting Jon Garland out there. last year I know I was all over the guys case but he may be only 23 years old but hes been pitching in the majors for 3 years now. Tonight before we can get up in the 2nd inning we're already down by 2 , we get one back and he gives up a dinger. If Loiaza & this kid Stewart keep pitching good I say we give Wright a chance to take Garlands spot and if he can't take it then we move Wright to the bullpen , I've heard Farmer & Rooney say Wright would do great as a reliever. Then I think the road ends for Garland. I just don't think he has the smarts to pitch as a starter. I know theres going to be someone who's going to get all over me but tonight I really thought he would come out and establish himself and dominate the indians. Tonight though he was the same old Garland. I would also think that Williams would'nt go much farther with Manuel and his tinkering. He should just stick with a lineup and let it play. Oh well there you are take you're best shots I know theres a lot of Garland fans out there , I just wish he would make me one of them.
Go White Sox!

I agree. While Garland's line might not have been that bad, I don't see him improving. He's all over the place, won't/can't get ahead in the count, and throws too many balls. If Loaiza and Stewart match their starts over the previous month, Wright should definately take Garland's starting spot.

Is it just me or is Garland the MLB version of Keanu Reeves? Whoa

duke of dorwood
04-09-2003, 11:09 PM
Our offense should support a fair outing like Garlands. It just wont with Lee making automatic outs , in game situations, guys getting picked off, and the lack of situational hitting still being exhibited.

chisox06
04-09-2003, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i'm not going to attack you i just think you're failing to remember that garland is 23 years old. if you have the ability to definitively determine whether or not 23 year olds will have successful careers, you could make a lot of money in baseball. i don't think garland pitched a terrible game today. did you watch/listen to the first inning? he gave up a broken bat single, a pop up that fell into right field, and an infield hit. after that he gave up two more single runs and then retired 9 guys in a row before giving up a leadoff double he didn't allow to score. i don't think that's reason to call for him to be removed from the rotation. he'll get over 30 starts this season no reason to get two upset about two of them.

Hes proven hes too young to pitch in the majors. Time to have another year at AAA, I'm tired of that excuse, its time for winning not for excuses. He's had 3 years to prove himself and hasn't.

ShoelessFred
04-09-2003, 11:47 PM
i believe that if garland doesn't pull his head out of his rear that wright should be moved into his spot. i don't care about the weather i don't care about age. IF YOU CAN'T THROW STRIKES, YOU CAN'T PITCH IN THE MAJORS! and garland can't consistently throw strikes. i think the real reason they want this kid to succeed is the fact that we got him from the cubs and jerry reinsdorf wants to look good by stealing him for basically nothing. but things around the cell may not be pretty this year. jerry already axed his "friend" krause. and don't think that jerry is not on the warpath. so if things don't go well this year, it'll be for to sit back and watch the heads roll...

WhiteSoxWinner
04-10-2003, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by ShoelessFred
jerry already axed his "friend" krause.

No way!! Krause left for health reasons. I buy that as plausible reason.

MHOUSE
04-10-2003, 12:34 AM
I am sick and tired of the "he's only 23." He's been up for three years and this is his second full year in the rotation. I know it's only two starts and I know he'll throw a shutout sometime later and everyone will be elated but he has to prove he can consistently throw strikes and get guys out. Yeah he has potential but he needs to start thinking and improving. If he's so young then send him to AAA to learn to pitch like the professional he's being used as. Yeah he pitched well later in the game and the offense didn't give him much help but he still gave up 5 runs and didn't give us a chance to win. Buehrle had an ok first start BUT we had a chance to win; both of Colon's starts were only decent, BUT we were still in the game even though he didn't get the W. I think he believes his hype and is just coasting along on it figuring he can keep on. It seems to me that overall the last 2 seasons he seems to be pitching about the same and not improved by much. If he's worth it all and worth the hype then SHOW ME SOMETHING!

MRKARNO
04-10-2003, 12:41 AM
I think it's give up on garland time. Danny Wright we'll give another chance to. Why is it that Garland is young and terrible and Stewart is young and a good pitcher?

Stoky44
04-10-2003, 01:15 AM
I know Jon has had a tough time and I would generally be all over his case. I am not going to truely start bashing him until it is baseball weather. HE has had two starts now. I know KC had good temps, but that was one game. HE wasn't too bad there, not #3 starter tho. Tonight was damn cold, he's from cali and not used to those temps. It must be really hard to grip the ball when it is that cold. Just think how hard it is to pitch with a blister on your hand, no try pitching when you can't feel your hand b/c it is so cold. I mean try staying outside for hours with no gloves on when it is that cold. Come on we are all from chicago and know how it feels to have frozen hands. Let's give him a little time, if he has a few more bad outings then lets talk about moving him down in the rotation or to the pen. Steward had one good major league start ( and i am not taking anything away from him). But let me ask you this, after one outing in the majors how can you say a guy is quality, and then condemn a decent starter b/c of a 2 bad outings.

Iguana775
04-10-2003, 01:45 AM
if jerry would quit f'ing with the g'damn line up we would have some continuity and they would start to hit like they should. i am sick of the damn pull-the-lineup-out-of-a-hat crap. pick one and go with it. if the lineup can stay the same for the most part, the offense will be able to pick up a outing like Garland had and give him a win.

MHOUSE
04-10-2003, 09:39 AM
Yeah Jerry's lefty wrecking crew doesn't do too hot...EVER! He should stick with a set lineup for at least ONE series. I don't buy that cold weather crap. It was cold in Chicago yesterday while Prior and that Velazquez kid threw 26 Ks and no walks between them. I mean it's not like pitchers can't pitch in the cold. Don't hitters dislike the cold too? I think everyone is it an equal disadvantage when weather is involved.

ssang
04-10-2003, 10:18 AM
I think you guys are nuts if tou think it's time to give up on Garland. Generally, pitchers take a lot longer to develop than hitters. Remember that Garland is still very young. Am I upset and frustrated that he hasn't pitched well yet? YES. Am I ready to give up on him? NO WAY. On reason I think he has failed so far is because he is WAY to cocky. I met him once before and he had this attitude like, I'm the greatest player on earth, I'm young, and I'm rich. He came off so arrogant that it disgusted me. I honestly feel that could be a factor in his slow progress. But honestly, do we really have any better options than Garland? NO. We have to continue to give him a chance a this point. Now, if you want someone to give up on it's gotta be Carlos Lee. Folks, he just ain't that good. He has bad fundamentals and almost zero baseball intelligence. I know little leaguers who understand in-game situations better than Lee!

balz1472
04-10-2003, 10:58 AM
I tend to agree with the majority rather than the minority around here that if Garland doesn't start to produce, he has got to be moved somewhere to work on his location. The guy has great stuff, but he cannot throw in the right spots. I pitched up through college and I know that my coaches wouldn't stand for a starting pitcher walking guys like he did last night. Plus, when he wasn't walking guys, he was leaving the ball right down the middle... hence the home run to a guy who was hitting all of .095 for the season.

Anyway, I have to admit I think Garland CAN be a good 2-4 starter in the majors, but he has to get the mental game together and a minor league stint or even a stint in the bullpen might help him out with that.

Just my thoughts...

gosox41
04-10-2003, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
aaaarrrrgggghhh. The ol' "Garland is still young" excuse. We can't use that anymore. If he's too young to be good or consistent, then why isn't he still in the minors? This is his fourth year on the Sox. By the time he's any good, he'll be leaving for free agency and we'll have had to sit through his struggles for 6 yrs. I agree w/ you that he didn't pitch an entirely bad game tonight but it wasn't good either. It was a #5 starter type of game, IMO. He also gave up some long blasts that were held up by strong winds in rightcenter field.

I am also getting sick of the youth excuse. Garland was a stud minor league prospect who has been compared to Kevin Brow. He is entering his third year in the majors. It's time to put up. Just to stir the pot a little, there's another hyped up 23 year old pitcher who has less time in the majors and seems to already be doing well: Mark Prior.

It may not be a fair comparison, but this age factor is overrated. Prior and Garland have dominating stuff even though one's a power pitcher and one's not. It's knowing how to pitch and command that make the difference between the two. Garland has had 5 years in professional baseball to develop this and while he's better then he was last year, he's got a long way to go before I'd feel confident the Sox would win when he takes the mound.

I'm not ready to right him off yet. Hawk and DJ were talking about how Garland needs to really feel the baseball when he throws his slider and it was too cold for that last night. Don't know if it's true, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt...for now.

Bob

czalgosz
04-10-2003, 11:54 AM
Okay, first off, I'm fairly certain that Garland is out of options, so I don't think he can be sent back down. The clock on that ran out sometime last season, I'm fairly sure of that. And he definitely would not clear waivers.

Secondly, to put things in perspective, here's some other pitchers in the Sox organization who are in their age 23 season - Jim Bullard, Wyatt Allen, Gary Majewski and Corwin Malone. Rauch and Stewart are both 24. It's still a bit too early to give up on Garland. Concerns about his 6-year clock running are legitimate, maybe the organization did rush him, but it's too late to worry about that now. He's here to stay. If he has a couple more crappy starts, I'd go for putting him in the bullpen if the Sox find someone else, but for now I'll give Garland the benefit of the doubt.

As for Valentin, if he never sees another lefty pitcher, I won't be upset. He really can't hit lefties at all. Lee I wouldn't mind seeing get some time on the bench and Daubach play a little in left.

Good to see Konerko get a couple good swings in yesterday.

voodoochile
04-10-2003, 12:14 PM
I didn't think he pitched that poorly last night. The two runs in the first were almost fluke like - well placed grounder that Jimenez caught up with but couldn't throw, bloop single, slow roller to first that advanced the runners, semi-intentional walk, broken bat soft liner to score two. The next two guys finally put good wood on the ball, but both made outs. In addition, JG retired 6 straight in the 5th and 6th before giving up the leadoff double in the 7th and being removed. Last night he battled when he clearly didn't have his best stuff or the best conditions. He only allowed 5 baserunners after the 1st inning and made enough pitches to get out of the first when it could have been much much worse.

This is a game that could have easily been a lot different, but the Sox failed to make the timely hits and the Tribe put the ball where the defense wasn't.

Garland does need to become more consistent and I hope he returns to late last season form sooner rather than later. I also think he has to start showing something this year. If his ERA continues to hover in the high 4's low 5's then his time will be coming to an end, IMO. I know he is young, but he has to find a way to step up and show he belongs...

ShoelessFred
04-10-2003, 12:26 PM
I'm not ready to right him off yet. Hawk and DJ were talking about how Garland needs to really feel the baseball when he throws his slider and it was too cold for that last night. Don't know if it's true, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt...for now.

As much as i like Hawk as an announcer, he and DJ are the freaking EXCUSE SQUAD. Excuses, Excuses, Excuses!!! That's all they do now during games.

maurice
04-10-2003, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I am also getting sick of the youth excuse. Garland was a stud minor league prospect who has been compared to Kevin Brow. He is entering his third year in the majors. It's time to put up.

Kevin Brown was pretty inconsistent early in his career also. He didn't win more than 12 games in a season until he turned 27, then busted out with a 21 Win / 3.32 ERA campaign for the Rangers. After that, Brown's consistency increased substantially, but so did his injuries.

If Garland is the only starter who struggles this year, we should be in great shape. They can move Garland to the bullpen (where he has a 2.58 ERA over the last three years) and give his spot in the rotation to Wright or Rauch.

I really wish Garland would change speeds more. Paul called a terrible game for him and didn't mix things up very much.

doublem23
04-10-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by chisox06
He's had 3 years to prove himself and hasn't.

I don't think you're talking about Jon Garland.

hold2dibber
04-10-2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
Can someone tell me why Jose Valentine was'nt playing tonight, Jerry Manuel doing the same stuff he did last year with our lineup.

Valentin can't hit lefties worth squat. I have no problem with him sitting when the other team's starter is a lefty. However, what pisses me off is when he remains on the bench even after a right handed pitcher comes in. If a righty comes in, Valentin should be re-inserted or at least used to pinch hit for Paul, Olivo, Rowand or Graffy.

When are they going to sit Carlos Lee - does he have any hits besides the infield hit he had against Detroit over the weekend.

Wait - you want Manuel to stay with a set lineup or do you want him to sit someone who's in a slump? As sick and tired as I am of CLee's up-and-down play, and his apparent letheragy out there, I don't think sitting him now is the right idea. As I have said from the get go, I think Daubach should start at least once per week in LF (against a righty starter). If Lee hasn't gotten it turned around by mid-May, I'd start platooning him and Daubach. In past
years, the Sox didn't really have an alternative to continuing to trot Lee out there, but this year they do. Maybe losing some playing time would light a fire under him. But in any event, I think it's too early to do so.

And I know this one will catch me all kinds of crap , but here it is folks, how long do we keep trotting Jon Garland out there. last year I know I was all over the guys case but he may be only 23 years old but hes been pitching in the majors for 3 years now. Tonight before we can get up in the 2nd inning we're already down by 2 , we get one back and he gives up a dinger. If Loiaza & this kid Stewart keep pitching good I say we give Wright a chance to take Garlands spot and if he can't take it then we move Wright to the bullpen , I've heard Farmer & Rooney say Wright would do great as a reliever. Then I think the road ends for Garland. I just don't think he has the smarts to pitch as a starter. I know theres going to be someone who's going to get all over me but tonight I really thought he would come out and establish himself and dominate the indians. Tonight though he was the same old Garland. I would also think that Williams would'nt go much farther with Manuel and his tinkering. He should just stick with a lineup and let it play. Oh well there you are take you're best shots I know theres a lot of Garland fans out there , I just wish he would make me one of them.
Go White Sox!

I like what Don Cooper has done so far with the team since last summer, but I'm really looking to him to help get Garland on track. The absolute key for Garland is throwing strikes. The Trib reported today that well over half of his pitches yesterday were balls. That will not cut it.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-10-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by ShoelessFred
As much as i like Hawk as an announcer, he and DJ are the freaking EXCUSE SQUAD. Excuses, Excuses, Excuses!!! That's all they do now during games.

I agree. I strongly recommend watching the TV with the volume turned down. Rooney & Farmer are 100-times more insightful--though Farmer's schtick can become tiring.