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View Full Version : Should Buherle gotten a CG?


SouthSideHitman
04-05-2003, 05:27 PM
When I saw that Mark's pitch count was barely in triple digits at the end eight, I thought that surely he would be left in for the complete game shutout. I thought the only possible reason not to send him out again was that this would be an easy, safe way for rick white to regain his confidence but JM said that he was worried that Mark would tire in September. What would another ten pitches have done? Well at least there was no harm done.

Stoky44
04-05-2003, 05:54 PM
I was at the game with my brother today, oh yeah by the way it was just a bit cold out there. I was so pissed to see White go warm up toward the end of the 8th while the sox were batting. Manuel should have let Mark get the C.G. shutout. That is such a dominating stat to see. Mark was going very strong, he only gave up 3 hits. The only reason I would ever say that this was a good move is if it was Mark's choice. I just really would have liked to seen a C.G.

Brian26
04-05-2003, 05:55 PM
Let's not overthink the decision to pull Buehrle. It's April, and he shouldn't be throwing 9 innings if he doesn't need to . It's a nice personal stat for Buehrle, but it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

hose
04-05-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by SouthSideHitman
When I saw that Mark's pitch count was barely in triple digits at the end eight, I thought that surely he would be left in for the complete game shutout. I thought the only possible reason not to send him out again was that this would be an easy, safe way for rick white to regain his confidence but JM said that he was worried that Mark would tire in September. What would another ten pitches have done? Well at least there was no harm done.


Manuel has to think in the long term and while Buehrle might have gotten the CG it was a perfect time to put White in a non pressure situation and get his head straight.

After White walked the lead off man I was starting to get a uneasy feeling. I know he pitched lights out for the Cardinals but he has been roughed up in a White Sox uniform.

White or Gordon need to come through for the bull pen to be effective this season. If one of the two can't get it done I think the Sox could promote from the minors . If both suck then it might be harder to replace.

After Louiza's spring and solid opening game the 5th spot looks to be in good shape . Last year Rauch was getting rocked at this time last year by the Tigers.

Josh Stewart is making his MLB debut tomorrow .

WinningUgly!
04-05-2003, 06:11 PM
Rip Jerry Manuel all you need to when he does something questionable to cost the Sox a win. When the team gets a shut out victory, leave the damn guy alone. Why would you want MB piching anymore than he has to in the 1st week of April? He'll get plenty of shots at complete games later in the season, when the arms in the bullpen are tired & in need of a night off.

harwar
04-05-2003, 07:03 PM
I was at the game yesterday & today.I was not surprised to see White come in.It was the perfect situation to get him in there.He has a contract and were going to need him so the White Sox have to figure out a way to get him on track.I rip J.M. a lot but i thought he had a great game today.Speaking of relievers..i just caught the end of the A's-Angels game and when Foulke got the save the Oakland announcers were really ripping on Kock saying things like we didn't see a 1-2-3 inning like that from him very often(7 last year).I was a bit nostalgic watching Foulke but maybe its just because i'm drunk.Whatever,its going to be a great season.

kevingrt
04-05-2003, 07:07 PM
It's not should have Buerhle gotten the CG, but did he really need the CG? I would rather have him go longer later in the season and against more important teams and in closer games rather then a blow-out to Detroit. Plus, we know he has confidence and he doesn't need a CG to give him a boost... it was nice to see Rick White who was struggling maybe gain a bit of confidence by doing well in the 9th. I think Jerry made a good decision in this game! :smile:

Bucktown
04-05-2003, 07:39 PM
Does anyone remember the 2000 playoffs when there were no arms left?

Anybody? Anybody?

kermittheefrog
04-05-2003, 08:28 PM
Do you remember watching Buehrle the last two Septembers. He looked TIRED. I'd much rather see Manuel go easy on Buehrle's arm when the game is clearly in hand.

BKozi
04-05-2003, 09:43 PM
I was kind of ticked to see Buehrle pulled in the 9th too. I wanted to see him get the shut-out (and I had him going on my fantasy team). But I do think that it was the right thing to do. It's still early in the season and he still needs to get used throwing that many pitches. Plus, I think that it helps to get White a chance to pitch in a no-lose situation. He may suck, but we're going to need him to have some confidence later in the season.

idseer
04-05-2003, 09:44 PM
at the risk of being jumped all over .... may i say that a pitcher being tired at the end of the season has nothing to do with heavy innings up front!

unless the human anatomy has changed in the last 20/30 years, there's no reason a pitcher in todays game can't throw 250 innings a year with no visible effect. it used to be done all the time. and todays athletes are supposed to be so much stronger and better trained.
i've yet to see one good reason why a pitchers arm used to be able to do this with regularity but suddenly they just can't take it.

the only possible explanation i can think of is that todays pitchers are being TRAINED to not be able to throw as much. babied until they can't or won't throw any more. pitching every 5th or 6th day instead of every 4th day and STILL they run out of gas. and it's not getting better .... it's getting worse. more pitching injuries than ever before (no proof here, just my gut feeling), and fewer innings every year. they are being bred this way.

it's been a sad sight to see these wuss's grow weaker every year.

A.T. Money
04-05-2003, 09:54 PM
Well, it was cold, and early. No point in burning out your pitcher in game 5 of the season. However, he was throwing a 3-hit shutout, and he went 8. He was breezing through that lineup. He could have finished it.

MarkEdward
04-05-2003, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Do you remember watching Buehrle the last two Septembers. He looked TIRED. I'd much rather see Manuel go easy on Buehrle's arm when the game is clearly in hand.

Stats would confirm this. Over the past three years, Mark's September ERA has been 4.43. To compare, his ERAs in June, July and August: 3.66, 3.80, 2.73.

For what it's worth, Buerhle's been roughed up in April. His ERA is 4.66 since 2000.

jeremyb1
04-05-2003, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by idseer
at the risk of being jumped all over .... may i say that a pitcher being tired at the end of the season has nothing to do with heavy innings up front!

unless the human anatomy has changed in the last 20/30 years, there's no reason a pitcher in todays game can't throw 250 innings a year with no visible effect. it used to be done all the time. and todays athletes are supposed to be so much stronger and better trained.
i've yet to see one good reason why a pitchers arm used to be able to do this with regularity but suddenly they just can't take it.

the only possible explanation i can think of is that todays pitchers are being TRAINED to not be able to throw as much. babied until they can't or won't throw any more. pitching every 5th or 6th day instead of every 4th day and STILL they run out of gas. and it's not getting better .... it's getting worse. more pitching injuries than ever before (no proof here, just my gut feeling), and fewer innings every year. they are being bred this way.

it's been a sad sight to see these wuss's grow weaker every year.

i think that's a really bad argument. i've never seen any data to support that. everyone says pitchers had just as many or fewer injuries when they used to throw that much but no one provides support for the argument.

however, even if someone could provide data from that era the evidence would undoubedtly be rather inaccurate because what everyone always seems to forget is how much sports medicine has progressed since then. there had to have been numerous injuries that weren't always diagnosed or dealt with in the past.

idseer
04-05-2003, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by SoxDemon
Well, it was cold, and early. No point in burning out your pitcher in game 5 of the season. However, he was throwing a 3-hit shutout, and he went 8. He was breezing through that lineup. He could have finished it.

imo he SHOULD have finished it ... shutout or no.

instead of wasting time trying to make white 'feel better about himself', they should be more concerned about their best pitcher proving to himself he can close out a game when he's going good.
he may need that ability later in the season.

you don't get stronger throughout a season by doing less work. that just conditions your body to do less work.

anyone remember nolan ryan? in his 2 best years he threw over 300 each. and he was a fireballer! add in the fact he pitched well into his 40's. the only pitcher today that even comes close to that kind of performing is clemens, and he's a dying breed.

idseer
04-05-2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i think that's a really bad argument. i've never seen any data to support that. everyone says pitchers had just as many or fewer injuries when they used to throw that much but no one provides support for the argument.

why is it a bad argument? because i can't provide all the stats? cause you haven't seen the data?
the support for the argument is clearly in the pitchers records. look up any good pitcher from the 50's, 60's or 70's even and look at their IP.

Originally posted by jeremyb1

however, even if someone could provide data from that era the evidence would undoubedtly be rather inaccurate because what everyone always seems to forget is how much sports medicine has progressed since then. there had to have been numerous injuries that weren't always diagnosed or dealt with in the past.

don't look now but you're making my argument. YES! medicine IS better today. doesn't that mean today's pitchers should be stronger and last longer than before?

guillen4life13
04-05-2003, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by idseer
imo he SHOULD have finished it ... shutout or no.

instead of wasting time trying to make white 'feel better about himself', they should be more concerned about their best pitcher proving to himself he can close out a game when he's going good.
he may need that ability later in the season.

you don't get stronger throughout a season by doing less work. that just conditions your body to do less work.

anyone remember nolan ryan? in his 2 best years he threw over 300 each. and he was a fireballer! add in the fact he pitched well into his 40's. the only pitcher today that even comes close to that kind of performing is clemens, and he's a dying breed.

Randy Johnson as well, but that's besides the point. Manuel was, imo, smart to put White in and take Buehrle out. CG's don't mean much in the grand scheme of things unless the pen is exhausted. White is gonna need innings to get on track, and believe me, we're going to need an on track White, as well as everyone else to be on track in the pen. Buehrle's on track. Use that inning to see if you can get another important pitcher on track.

About what you say, I have to say that Ryan and Clemens are/were exceptions. They were just born to be like that. Not all pitchers are born like that. In my opinion, if a pitcher has crossed the century mark at the end of the eighth, and has a considerable lead, put someone who isn't on track in, and give him a chance to catch his groove.

WinningUgly!
04-05-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by idseer
imo he SHOULD have finished it ... shutout or no.

instead of wasting time trying to make white 'feel better about himself', they should be more concerned about their best pitcher proving to himself he can close out a game when he's going good.
he may need that ability later in the season.

you don't get stronger throughout a season by doing less work. that just conditions your body to do less work.

anyone remember nolan ryan? in his 2 best years he threw over 300 each. and he was a fireballer! add in the fact he pitched well into his 40's. the only pitcher today that even comes close to that kind of performing is clemens, and he's a dying breed.



Maybe you've missed Buehrle over the past few seasons. He is able to close out games when he has to. He was ranked 5th in the AL in 2001 with 4 complete games & 2nd in 2002 with 5. He's 24 years old & has pitched 460.1 innings over the 2001-02 seasons, 3rd most among AL pitchers...Tim Hudson(473.1) & Freddy Garcia(462.1). Mark Buehrle is not a Nolan Ryan or Roger Clemens type power pitcher. He becomes less effective when over-worked. There's no need to overwork him in April, for personal stats when the game is out of reach.

idseer
04-05-2003, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Randy Johnson as well, but that's besides the point. Manuel was, imo, smart to put White in and take Buehrle out. CG's don't mean much in the grand scheme of things unless the pen is exhausted. White is gonna need innings to get on track, and believe me, we're going to need an on track White, as well as everyone else to be on track in the pen. Buehrle's on track. Use that inning to see if you can get another important pitcher on track.

About what you say, I have to say that Ryan and Clemens are/were exceptions. They were just born to be like that. Not all pitchers are born like that. In my opinion, if a pitcher has crossed the century mark at the end of the eighth, and has a considerable lead, put someone who isn't on track in, and give him a chance to catch his groove.

where we differ is that i don't think one inning in a meaningless situation will do anything for rick white. he may as well be throwing in the bullpen pretending it's a tie game.

i agree ryan and clemens are exceptions today! however, the league used to be full of pitchers who regularly went 250 or more innings. most teams had at least 2 guys that went well over 200. how many went 200 last season?

here's an interesting stat. in the american league between 1968 and 1977 the leader in innings pitched had 300+ IP every year. since then ....... not ONE pitcher has done it. the last time a pitcher in EITHER league has done it was 1980.

idseer
04-05-2003, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Maybe you've missed Buehrle over the past few seasons. He is able to close out games when he has to. He was ranked 5th in the AL in 2001 with 4 complete games & 2nd in 2002 with 5. He's 24 years old & has pitched 460.1 innings over the 2001-02 seasons, 3rd most among AL pitchers...Tim Hudson(473.1) & Freddy Garcia(462.1). Mark Buehrle is not a Nolan Ryan or Roger Clemens type power pitcher. He becomes less effective when over-worked. There's no need to overwork him in April, for personal stats when the game is out of reach.

it's true mark has avgeraged 230 per year. i think he's capable of more ... and so does he apparently.
as for a non power pitcher being overworked ... take a look at warren spahn's career. a guy who averaged 270 IP between 1947 & 1965. 19 years.

in fact it should be easier for a non-power pitcher to go longer. that's why wilbur wood could pitch 300+ innings in consecutive years.

idseer
04-05-2003, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
There's no need to overwork him in April, for personal stats when the game is out of reach.

by the way, my reasoning has nothing to do with personal stats.
i think it's better for mark, himself, to do the work. to close games out. to build up his strength.

i believe in relief pitching ... just not to the ridiculous degree it's used in today's game.

WinningUgly!
04-05-2003, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by idseer
it's true mark has avgeraged 230 per year. i think he's capable of more ... and so does he apparently.
as for a non power pitcher being overworked ... take a look at warren spahn's career. a guy who averaged 270 IP between 1947 & 1965. 19 years.

in fact it should be easier for a non-power pitcher to go longer. that's why wilbur wood could pitch 300+ innings in consecutive years. I agree that pitchers could be pushed to log more innings each year, but it's not gonna happen. In today's game, with all of the specialization in the bullpens, along with the multimillions of dollars wrapped up in pitchers, we might not see a guy reach the 270 inning mark again.

idseer
04-05-2003, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
I agree that pitchers could be pushed to log more innings each year, but it's not gonna happen. In today's game, with all of the specialization in the bullpens, along with the multimillions of dollars wrapped up in pitchers, we might not see a guy reach the 270 inning mark again.


i can't argue with you there. i just think it's a shame.

this is also interesting to me. did you know that tom seaver is 98th all time in complete games with 231? who's going to come close to that again? forget the leader who has 749 ... more than most any pitcher is likely to even start in their careers.

WinningUgly!
04-05-2003, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i can't argue with you there. i just think it's a shame.

this is also interesting to me. did you know that tom seaver is 98th all time in complete games with 231? who's going to come close to that again? forget the leader who has 749 ... more than most any pitcher is likely to even start in their careers.

"Pitch them every three days and you'd find they'd get control and good strong arms."
- Hall of Famer Cy Young (1st Overall Complete Games Leader)

hose
04-06-2003, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by idseer
it's true mark has avgeraged 230 per year. i think he's capable of more ... and so does he apparently.
as for a non power pitcher being overworked ... take a look at warren spahn's career. a guy who averaged 270 IP between 1947 & 1965. 19 years.

in fact it should be easier for a non-power pitcher to go longer. that's why wilbur wood could pitch 300+ innings in consecutive years.


The game is not managed the same way today as it was back in those eras, so it's hard to compare stats. Now if you want to argue strategy I think you make some excellent points and I wonder if today's game is to specialized. The child prodigy in Boston, Theo Epstien, wants to go without a top payed closer. He didn't sign Urbina and has "Gas Can" Howry and a retread Alan Embree as his bullpen by committee.

The Atlanta Braves has been one of baseball most dominating staffs over the last 10 years . Their pitching coach Leo Mazzilo, took what most teams would have as their number one or number two starter and turned him into a closer. Some will argue that Smoltz was made a closer because he was coming off injury and couldn't start games at the time. Well Smoltz believes he can start games now and has made some references to it. Atlanta still sees Smoltz more valuable as a closer and has kept him there.

Starting pitcher's role is now basically 7 innings and then go to the bullpen for the save. If this is how the game is played then the middle relievers have to contribute. The closer is only used in a save situation...thank you Tony La Russa .

I think your examples are valid and would like to explore why pitchers aren't stronger today, or they are but not given the opportunity to show it.
I do know that the American kids of today don't nearly play as much baseball as the youths of other eras. So many American born MLB pitchers come out of college without putting in a lot of innings, heck how may games does a college team play in a season? not many. Add in the economics of the game and many teams can't afford to pay the bonuses on high school pitchers and then take a chance that they will develop into a MLB pitcher.

The game has changed over the years from a 4 man rotation to a 5 man. What direction will it go in the future? Back to a 4 man rotation?

The White Sox used their first round pick on Royce Ring. This raised a few eyebrows among other GM's. I can remember a quote along the lines of " college or minor league relievers are pitchers that weren't good enough to start ."
I don't think to many 1st round picks have been used on closers....KW cutting edge? LOL!!!!!

Tragg
04-06-2003, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Bucktown
Does anyone remember the 2000 playoffs when there were no arms left?

Anybody? Anybody?
We lost that series because we couldn't hit; same in 1983 (1993 lost because of top of rotation sucked in playoffs).
But, I have no problem with pulling MB.