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Bmr31
08-16-2001, 09:48 PM
3 of the 5 runs have been unearned, so lets stop blaming our young pitchers and point the blame where it belongs, our AWFUL defense!

NUKE_CLEVELAND
08-16-2001, 09:50 PM
:hitless

"Shoddy defense?? Isin't that why they brought me here?"

Bmr31
08-16-2001, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by NUKE_CLEVELAND
:hitless

"Shoddy defense?? Isin't that why they brought me here?"

yup. and we are a better team with you out there at SS royce...

Daver
08-16-2001, 09:53 PM
NOT!!!!!!!!

Tragg
08-16-2001, 09:55 PM
No kidding - Graffignino is a joke, even for a utility infielder; velentin simply makes too many errors; royce, well, i'm tired of arguing, but his hitting is horrible (yes, I know he's batting .888 for the last 2 months, even though his yearly average is .230).
We've got to get some infielders - BAD.

Another thing we need - TWO QUALITY LEFTY RELIEVERS, KENNY WILLIAMS. Embree is terrible - yet even a terrible lefty can retire mediocre lefty batters. But Palmero? No chance. And our solid youngsters who throw from the right have no chance either. manuel needed to bring in a lefty against palmero, but he had no one to bring in. It was just like last night - manuel had to let embree stay in against A Rod because he didn't have another lefty to pitch against palmero. Consequently, they each got long hits.
We've got to have 2 lefties for Manuel to use - and good ones. Wunsch last year fit the bill for one spot. Embree does not, Vining has not so far.

NUKE_CLEVELAND
08-16-2001, 09:56 PM
UH NO!!!

With Royce at SS we get fewer errors , yes, but we also get a guy with a rubber arm & no range to boot. While Valentin makes more errors he also makes more tough plays, turns more twin killings & has a better bat. Royce may seem like the better fielder on paper, but watching the game will prove that on a lot of tough chances he doesn't get to the ball & it goes into left.

Bmr31
08-16-2001, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by NUKE_CLEVELAND
UH NO!!!

With Royce at SS we get fewer errors , yes, but we also get a guy with a rubber arm & no range to boot. While Valentin makes more errors he also makes more tough plays, turns more twin killings & has a better bat. Royce may seem like the better fielder on paper, but watching the game will prove that on a lot of tough chances he doesn't get to the ball & it goes into left.

SS gets teh most opportunities on defense. Having royce out there is a huge improvement. He isnt a bad hitter, either.

Bmr31
08-16-2001, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by NUKE_CLEVELAND
UH NO!!!

With Royce at SS we get fewer errors , yes, but we also get a guy with a rubber arm & no range to boot. While Valentin makes more errors he also makes more tough plays, turns more twin killings & has a better bat. Royce may seem like the better fielder on paper, but watching the game will prove that on a lot of tough chances he doesn't get to the ball & it goes into left.


best fielding percentage of all AL SS dude.......

Tragg
08-16-2001, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


SS gets teh most opportunities on defense. Having royce out there is a huge improvement. He isnt a bad hitter, either.


.230 batting average this year; .310 career obp. He refuses to walk.

Royce isn't a bad hitter - he's a terrible hitter.

NUKE_CLEVELAND
08-16-2001, 10:23 PM
Dude, fielding % doesn't mean that much. On the tough plays Royce can't get there & the ball goes into left for a hit. Jose CAN get there & while some of those plays go for errors , most are outs. Royce is the better man on paper, but Jose is the better man PERIOD.

Bmr31
08-16-2001, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by Tragg



.230 batting average this year; .310 career obp. He refuses to walk.

Royce isn't a bad hitter - he's a terrible hitter.



and i could throw out positive #s that would slant him in my favor. Thats why stats are generally useless. Hes a decent hitter. I can think of 20 SS id rather have. Jose just isnt one of them....

Tragg
08-16-2001, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31




and i could throw out positive #s that would slant him in my favor. Thats why stats are generally useless. Hes a decent hitter. I can think of 20 SS id rather have. Jose just isnt one of them....


How about 2 or 3 that work in your favor? Let's see them.

Here are a few:

A deplorable .283 obp (one of the most meaningful hitting stats there is) this year.
A .353 slugging percentage this year
A career .310 OBP
Batting average is a deceptive statistic, much like fielding percentage, because it omits walks, which are usually the equal to singles (particularly when you have no power); fielding percentage, of course, omits range and arm strength.

He's flat out a terrible hitter, and a big hole in the lineup. We can afford one hole - we have 2 and, when singleton plays, we have 3.

Bmr31
08-16-2001, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by Tragg



How about 2 or 3 that work in your favor? Let's see them.

Here are a few:

A deplorable .283 obp (one of the most meaningful hitting stats there is) this year.
A .353 slugging percentage this year
A career .310 OBP
Batting average is a deceptive statistic, much like fielding percentage, because it omits walks, which are usually the equal to singles (particularly when you have no power); fielding percentage, of course, omits range and arm strength.

He's flat out a terrible hitter, and a big hole in the lineup. We can afford one hole - we have 2 and, when singleton plays, we have 3.

Maybe. I think my point is, id rather have a terrible hitter than a terrible fielder. Any day...

Bmr31
08-16-2001, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by Tragg



How about 2 or 3 that work in your favor? Let's see them.

Here are a few:

A deplorable .283 obp (one of the most meaningful hitting stats there is) this year.
A .353 slugging percentage this year
A career .310 OBP
Batting average is a deceptive statistic, much like fielding percentage, because it omits walks, which are usually the equal to singles (particularly when you have no power); fielding percentage, of course, omits range and arm strength.

He's flat out a terrible hitter, and a big hole in the lineup. We can afford one hole - we have 2 and, when singleton plays, we have 3.

dude i got better things to do than search for stats. I dont believe in them to begin with. Just from memory, i can tell you hes been hitting VERY WELL since late may and hes a decent to good HR hitter for a SS.....

HootieMcBoob
08-16-2001, 11:43 PM
Another thing we need - TWO QUALITY LEFTY RELIEVERS, KENNY WILLIAMS. Embree is terrible - yet even a terrible lefty can retire mediocre lefty batters.

Next year, we'll have Wunsch and Parque in the pen, and I feel confident about that. KW don't need to get anyone - plus who's on the market? no one.

NUKE_CLEVELAND
08-16-2001, 11:51 PM
Parque in the pen?? Hey Bro, he's a starter not a reliever.

FarWestChicago
08-16-2001, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by NUKE_CLEVELAND
Parque in the pen?? Hey Bro, he's a starter not a reliever.

It's an option. We're going to need a lefty in the pen. We'll see what happens.

NUKE_CLEVELAND
08-17-2001, 12:01 AM
Mark Burhle
Jon Garland
Danny Wright
Sean Lowe
Committee of ( Glover, Ginter or whoever )

Parque is , at the very least, the 5th starter to plug that hole & I think in that rotation he's like the 3rd starter.

HootieMcBoob
08-17-2001, 12:02 AM
You haven't heard that possibility???
Parque says he'll do whatever the team needs him to.

Rotation (maybe) next year includes Burly, Lowe, Kip, WRIGHT, and Garland.

I like Jim out of the pen - will face more lefties (better match-ups for him), plus he can't get past the 5th when he starts. I think the move will help his numbers.

Spiff
08-17-2001, 12:03 AM
All of a sudden Kip Wells is out of the starting rotation picture?

Tragg
08-17-2001, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by HootieMcBoob


Next year, we'll have Wunsch and Parque in the pen, and I feel confident about that. KW don't need to get anyone - plus who's on the market? no one.

I don't feel confident about 2 guys coming off of season-long injuries coming in and both providing quality efforts. How do you know no one's on the market for a trade? What about trading one of our righty youngsters for someone else's lefty youngster. While we're at it, trade a couple for a couple of infielders, in which we are in dire need.
We have a glut of right handed young pitching. Let's use it to improve the team.

HootieMcBoob
08-17-2001, 12:15 AM
Yes, but we'd have to rely on KW for our trades.

:KW
Don't you worry. I've never let you down, never will.

Mathew
08-17-2001, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31


dude i got better things to do than search for stats. I dont believe in them to begin with. Just from memory, i can tell you hes been hitting VERY WELL since late may and hes a decent to good HR hitter for a SS.....

Decent to good home run hitters(at any position) do not bat ninth.
Decent to good hitters do not bat ninth.
Here's a few stats
100% of #9 hitters are not in the lineup because they hit well.
100% of #9 hitters see different situations, pitches, and pressures then the good hitters who are at the top of the line up.
There are not 20 SS better then Jose Valentin
Is Bret Boone that much of a defensive liability at 2B? He makes a lot of errors, I guess Seattle should trade him for a rubber armed 2B with a .230 avg? If they do we'll take Boone, he can back up Graffanino. For someone who claims to know so very much about baseball, you aren't showing it.

Tree
08-17-2001, 07:53 AM
Why is everyone so hard on Clayton? Granted he is not our best hitter but so what he is a better than average defender and with the young pitchers we have who are not really strikeout artists you need the best defense available. Thats why I cant wait till Crede will be up cause he is supposed to be a smooth fielder. By the way were you all this critical of Ozzie Guillen when he was the WhiteSox SS? He was a horrible hitter as well.

Bmr31
08-17-2001, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by Tree
Why is everyone so hard on Clayton? Granted he is not our best hitter but so what he is a better than average defender and with the young pitchers we have who are not really strikeout artists you need the best defense available. Thats why I cant wait till Crede will be up cause he is supposed to be a smooth fielder. By the way were you all this critical of Ozzie Guillen when he was the WhiteSox SS? He was a horrible hitter as well.


because they dont know the game of baseball well enough to look beyond stats.

balz1472
08-17-2001, 09:40 AM
Alright the main point here is this: PITCHING AND DEFENSE WIN BALL GAMES! I know it sucks, but look at the scrubs, they have pitching and defense and they are winning. We don't have either one consistently, therefore we lose.
Royce has been very good at SS this year, eventhough his bat was completely worthless for most of the season.
I am a huge fan of Valentine because of the fact that he is a catalyst, but consider this what do we have left to do with him. The SOX are paying Royce to produce, he has done so on the defensive side of the ball and lately he has picked up his hitting as of late...

Randar68
08-17-2001, 10:05 AM
Next year, we'll have Wunsch and Parque in the pen, and I feel confident about that. KW don't need to get anyone - plus who's on the market? no one.

Plus Osuna is supposedly a lefty specialist with that screwball.....

Mathew
08-17-2001, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by balz1472
Alright the main point here is this: PITCHING AND DEFENSE WIN BALL GAMES! I know it sucks, but look at the scrubs, they have pitching and defense and they are winning. We don't have either one consistently, therefore we lose.
Royce has been very good at SS this year, eventhough his bat was completely worthless for most of the season.
I am a huge fan of Valentine because of the fact that he is a catalyst, but consider this what do we have left to do with him. The SOX are paying Royce to produce, he has done so on the defensive side of the ball and lately he has picked up his hitting as of late...

To compare to the Cubs is false. They have a brutal division and that is their formula for success. It's not the only one or we would have been terrible last year. It's not Seattle's defence, it's their speed and timely hitting, sadly our success relies to much on the long ball, which is why we will continue to lose. To claim that Clayton is winning or will win us games is ridiculous. Royce Clayton was sought by no team other then Chicago...coincidence?

czalgosz
08-17-2001, 02:37 PM
Royce Clayton is doing exactly what I thought he'd do, which is not much. I never liked the Clayton pickup. As we saw the other night, we didn't give up much for him, but he's a waste of space on this team.

Does anyone know what Tim Hummel is up to? Is he still the future in the Sox infield?

Jerry_Manuel
08-17-2001, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Does anyone know what Tim Hummel is up to? Is he still the future in the Sox infield?

He is playing 2nd base now.

czalgosz
08-17-2001, 02:47 PM
2nd base... interesting. How's he doing there?

Jerry_Manuel
08-17-2001, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
2nd base... interesting. How's he doing there?

To be honest I don't know.
But yesterday Randar posted a ton on some of the minor league players including Hummel give it a look.

Click Here (http://130.94.169.158/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1827&highlight=Randar)

Hundley for Prez
08-17-2001, 03:10 PM
The Sox are extremely weak at SS organizationally, which is the only reason Royce will probably make it back to the team in 2002. Dellaero should never make the majors again, god willing, and Hummel's been moved to second.

Clayton has been every part of a bust this season, despite his better batting average of late. His defense is deceiving. It is not bad (se Derek Jeter), but to say he is automatically a great shortstop due to his high fielding percentage misses the point. His range is really only average at best. Most range ranking lists rank him near the bottom on a yearly basis. I do not believe he is that bad, but I do notice a good difference in the range of a healthy Valentin and Clayton. Sure, Valentin makes a lot of errors, but numbers show that the offensive disparity between the two make Valentin an obvious choice to be the every day SS. Clayton is an awful hitter. Even in this good stretch, his OBP is below average, as it always is. His power is decent, but only if compared to other SS who are questionable starters (N.Perez, Sanchez, Cabrera, C.Guillen) can it be considered good. Valentin has power on a par with every SS save ARod, Nomar and Tejada. I think he has equal power to Jeter, but Jeter far outranks him in the OBP category.

To not pay attention to batting stats like Equivalent Average (www.baseballprospectus.com) is a mistake. Teams like Oakland and Seattle seem to understand this, teams like Kansas City and Pittsburgh do not. I think the Sox are slowly getting the point.

Remember, the Sox ERA is quite similar to last year's, it's the offense that has failed this team. Thomas getting hurt, and the acquisitions of Clayton and S.Alomar, along with the pointless at bats given to Paul, Ramirez, Baines and Singleton, look like the cause.

That being said, the Sox still have a shot this year, and I'll still be rooting for Royce to get some hits, especially with OBP superstar Mark Johnson batting before him. After all, only certain Sox players do I truly hate, and none play for the team right now. One is still playing in Newark, however. I don't think Mr.Navarro will be getting the call from the Sox, a la Canseco, very soon.

Iguana775
08-17-2001, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by NUKE_CLEVELAND
Parque in the pen?? Hey Bro, he's a starter not a reliever.

jerry has hinted at putting butter in the pen. also, butter said that he wouldnt mind the pen role. this was in an article in the trib about a month ago.

personally, i would much rather have him in the pen anyways. he hardly ever goes deep in to a game and his left arm would be much more useful coming out of the pen. and besides, i dont think he could make the rotation with burly, garland, glover, kip, wright, lowe, rauch(a stretch), and possibly a vet FA pitcher competing for a starting role next year.

Iguana775
08-17-2001, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Mathew


Decent to good home run hitters(at any position) do not bat ninth.
Decent to good hitters do not bat ninth.
Here's a few stats
100% of #9 hitters are not in the lineup because they hit well.
100% of #9 hitters see different situations, pitches, and pressures then the good hitters who are at the top of the line up.
There are not 20 SS better then Jose Valentin
Is Bret Boone that much of a defensive liability at 2B? He makes a lot of errors, I guess Seattle should trade him for a rubber armed 2B with a .230 avg? If they do we'll take Boone, he can back up Graffanino. For someone who claims to know so very much about baseball, you aren't showing it.

you forget CJ batted 9th last year for us. :) albiet, that is a major exception to the rule.

Mathew
08-17-2001, 06:10 PM
CJ wasn't a good hitter untill last year. But CJ as a defensive specialist is a hell of a lot different and better in every single way including hitting then Whaleschit Clayton.

Bmr31
08-17-2001, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by Mathew


Decent to good home run hitters(at any position) do not bat ninth.
Decent to good hitters do not bat ninth.
Here's a few stats
100% of #9 hitters are not in the lineup because they hit well.
100% of #9 hitters see different situations, pitches, and pressures then the good hitters who are at the top of the line up.
There are not 20 SS better then Jose Valentin
Is Bret Boone that much of a defensive liability at 2B? He makes a lot of errors, I guess Seattle should trade him for a rubber armed 2B with a .230 avg? If they do we'll take Boone, he can back up Graffanino. For someone who claims to know so very much about baseball, you aren't showing it. '


Matty, i know a little kid like you is not challenging my baseball knowledge. I dont need to "show" or "prove"anything to you or anyone else. I hear the same crap from punk kids and know it all adults in my fantasy leagues year after year after year. And year after year after year, i dominate my leagues. I dominate my leagues because i know the game of baseball and i know it well. I do NOT rely on stats, i rely on what i SEE. On the other hand, i Do not have to go back and look at stats to tell you that clayton has had decent to good home run seasons, for a SS. IM 100 percent positive. Before you challenge someone who obviously knows way more than you about the game, i suggest you gain some knowledge.

Mathew
08-17-2001, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



because they dont know the game of baseball well enough to look beyond stats.

What do you want us to gage his lack of maketable qualities as a good baseball player. O.K. by what I've seen, no stats, he looks like a fundamentally sound defensive SS with little range and he bats like a pitcher.

Gage it on talent?
Clayton has been at best average for many years, and is now getting to the peak of his prime, asuming he has one. His talent will not increase due to his age and lack of improvement over time. Could he possibly still be a major leaguer if his "skills" decreased? Unlikely. There how's that for no stats?

Bmr31
08-17-2001, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Mathew


What do you want us to gage his lack of maketable qualities as a good baseball player. O.K. by what I've seen, no stats, he looks like a fundamentally sound defensive SS with little range and he bats like a pitcher.

Gage it on talent?
Clayton has been at best average for many years, and is now getting to the peak of his prime, asuming he has one. His talent will not increase due to his age and lack of improvement over time. Could he possibly still be a major leaguer if his "skills" decreased? Unlikely. There how's that for no stats?

correct me if im wrong, but when did i ever claim royce is GOOD???????? I said the best option we have.

Mathew
08-17-2001, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
'


Matty, i know a little kid like you is not challenging my baseball knowledge. I dont need to "show" or "prove"anything to you or anyone else. I hear the same crap from punk kids and know it all adults in my fantasy leagues year after year after year. And year after year after year, i dominate my leagues. I dominate my leagues because i know the game of baseball and i know it well. I do NOT rely on stats, i rely on what i SEE. On the other hand, i Do not have to go back and look at stats to tell you that clayton has had decent to good home run seasons, for a SS. IM 100 percent positive. Before you challenge someone who obviously knows way more than you about the game, i suggest you gain some knowledge.

If fantasy leagues are a measure of what a great baseball mind you are, why don't you manage a real pro team? What team do you Play for? I have yet to hear you say anything intelligent about baseball specifically, although you seem adequetly trained in being defensive and condesending when challenged?

Daver
08-17-2001, 06:32 PM
The best option we have is Jose Valentin.

Mathew
08-17-2001, 06:34 PM
Agreed

Bmr31
08-17-2001, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by Mathew


If fantasy leagues are a measure of what a great baseball mind you are, why don't you manage a real pro team? What team do you Play for? I have yet to hear you say anything intelligent about baseball specifically, although you seem adequetly trained in being defensive and condesending when challenged?

Hey kid, trust me, youve far from challenged me, LOL. :)

Bmr31
08-18-2001, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by Mathew
Agreed

oh i feel terrible that daver and mathew dont agree with me but a major league manager and major league organization do. Gee, i dont know what to do...

PaleHoseGeorge
08-18-2001, 12:53 PM
Three points about Royce Clayton.

1. Suggesting he's good defensively because of a high fielding pct. is a joke. Anyone who has seen the generosity of Comiskey official scorer to Sox infielders (especially Ray Durham) knows this.

2. Citing Royce's improved BA as evidence he's a good hitter is a bogus argument. The fact his season BA is still so low is testament to just how bad he truly was the first 8 weeks of the season. (BTW, those were the games that really counted). I'll try real hard not to laugh if anyone is suggesting a .231 BA constitutes a strong hitter.

3. We could probably tolerate Royce's crap offense (and suspect defense) if we didn't also have a hole in our line up at catcher. No A.L. team can have championship aspirations with TWO sinkholes in their line up. Sure we could find a good-hit/good-D catcher, but I like our chances of getting a good-hit/good-D shortstop a lot more.

Royce has a rubber band arm, can't go into the hole, and has an undisciplined bat. He'll never be more than a #8 hitter ever again. His demeanor in the clubhouse leaves a lot to be desired, too. Other than that, he's just fine.

Get his @ss outta here.*

*Naturally we can't because nobody is as stupid as KW was to pay him $4 million. We're stuck with him for one more year, just like we were with Navarro.

"It could be worse. I sucked for the Sox THREE years!"
:jaime

Mathew
08-19-2001, 05:00 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31


oh i feel terrible that daver and mathew dont agree with me but a major league manager and major league organization do. Gee, i dont know what to do...

Do you really think that any Major league minds think that Royce Clayton is better than Jose Valentin? Why did these fans of Royce not try to trade for him? Are they good at Fantasy Drafts? Why did these fans of Royce bench him regularly for his excellent play in April, May untill his inferior (Valentin) was injured?

Bmr31
08-19-2001, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Mathew


Do you really think that any Major league minds think that Royce Clayton is better than Jose Valentin? Why did these fans of Royce not try to trade for him? Are they good at Fantasy Drafts? Why did these fans of Royce bench him regularly for his excellent play in April, May untill his inferior (Valentin) was injured?

dude, if youre gonna try to debate with me, at least make sense,okay?