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View Full Version : Am I the only guy who likes Manuel?


lowesox
04-04-2003, 08:51 PM
I think the people on this website can be really hard on the sox sometimes. And while I have taken some sharp stabs at KW in the past - I think I've finally found a point where I'm happy with all of the players, and all of the management.

I think Manuel a pretty good manager. Sure, he never blows a gasget - and that's important. But in general I usually agree with his pitching changes, and I like that the way he works the lineup.

The truth is, I'm not sure any Manager would be liked on this site with the way some posters are.

Am I the only person here who's really happy with this team? Until this season my favourite sox team of all time was 1993 (I loved the pitching staff) - now it's this year.

voodoochile
04-04-2003, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
I think the people on this website can be really hard on the sox sometimes. And while I have taken some sharp stabs at KW in the past - I think I've finally found a point where I'm happy with all of the players, and all of the management.

I think Manuel a pretty good manager. Sure, he never blows a gasget - and that's important. But in general I usually agree with his pitching changes, and I like that the way he works the lineup.

The truth is, I'm not sure any Manager would be liked on this site with the way some posters are.

Am I the only person here who's really happy with this team? Until this season my favourite sox team of all time was 1993 (I loved the pitching staff) - now it's this year.

If he gets this team to the playoffs and then gets them to make some noise then I am fine with him. But, this is his year to actually live up to the promise of 2000. If he can't win with this team, then he doesn't deserve to be managing the Sox, IMO.

lowesox
04-04-2003, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
If he gets this team to the playoffs and then gets them to make some noise then I am fine with him. But, this is his year to actually live up to the promise of 2000. If he can't win with this team, then he doesn't deserve to be managing the Sox, IMO.

I agree 100% with that.

TornLabrum
04-04-2003, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
I think the people on this website can be really hard on the sox sometimes. And while I have taken some sharp stabs at KW in the past - I think I've finally found a point where I'm happy with all of the players, and all of the management.

I think Manuel a pretty good manager. Sure, he never blows a gasget - and that's important. But in general I usually agree with his pitching changes, and I like that the way he works the lineup.

The truth is, I'm not sure any Manager would be liked on this site with the way some posters are.

Am I the only person here who's really happy with this team? Until this season my favourite sox team of all time was 1993 (I loved the pitching staff) - now it's this year.

The next manager who receives MY unrequited love will be the first one since 1917 who wins a World Series.

kevingrt
04-04-2003, 09:21 PM
You might be the only guy that likes Manuel, but I don't dislike Manuel. I just don't "like him"

jeremyb1
04-04-2003, 09:25 PM
i'm a serious manuel backer. in sports everyone tends to blame the manager. maybe that's the nature of sports and you have to accept it to a certain degree. however, i fail to see how manuel is such a bad manager in the eyes of everyone here outside of the fact that we obviuosly have some decent talent and people want that to translate into 90+ wins every season and when that doesn't happen, people need a scape goat.

manuel came in and overacheived with a young club people thought would lose a lot of games in '99. in '00 his team exceeded expectations more than any other sox team in recent memory. we were picked by some to finish second to last in the division and we won 95 games. i guess baseball tends to take on a "what have you done for me lately" attitude and one good season two years ago doesn't mean that much now, but i feel like a lot of people fail to give manuel due credit for '00. if he receieved as much credit for '00 as he has blame for the past two seasons i doubt people would call for his job.

as for the last two seasons, manuel had injury issues with baldwin, howry, wunsch, d wells, parque, and eldred in '01 and lost his most productive offensive player in '00 for the entire season. a .500 record in light of that is pretty admirable in my opinion.

its not as easy to make excuses for last season but the team certainly wasn't as strong as some would suggest. lofton and clayton were absolute disasters disrupted team chemistry. ritchie was the worst pitcher in baseball and the rest of the rotation was quite inexperienced. lets be honest a rotation of buehrle, ritchie, garland, wright, and rauch was not capable of winning anything last season.

WinningUgly!
04-04-2003, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
I think the people on this website can be really hard on the sox sometimes. And while I have taken some sharp stabs at KW in the past - I think I've finally found a point where I'm happy with all of the players, and all of the management.

I think Manuel a pretty good manager. Sure, he never blows a gasget - and that's important. But in general I usually agree with his pitching changes, and I like that the way he works the lineup.

The truth is, I'm not sure any Manager would be liked on this site with the way some posters are.

Am I the only person here who's really happy with this team? Until this season my favourite sox team of all time was 1993 (I loved the pitching staff) - now it's this year.

I don't think Manuel is as bad of a manager as he's made himself look the last few seasons...if that makes sense. I like it when a manager has the balls to make lineup changes & make unconventional - against the book moves. It flat out comes down to players executing during these situations & they haven't been able to very often for JM since the 2000 season. There has to come a point when the manager takes responsibility/heat for his players lack of execution. Jerry Manuel is dangerously close to this point.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-04-2003, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
If he gets this team to the playoffs and then gets them to make some noise then I am fine with him. But, this is his year to actually live up to the promise of 2000. If he can't win with this team, then he doesn't deserve to be managing the Sox, IMO.

Well obviously playoff success is the goal, and nobody would be upset if the Sox won the ALDS or went deeper into the postseason. However I would be satisfied if he simply got the most out of his players, specifically a solid effort for six months of baseball. Manuel's teams have always failed to avoid the season-ending slumps. The '98 team was effectively eliminated before the all-star break (but excused for having young talent). The '99 team looked clueless for half of July and most of August (but again excused for being young). The Sox were buried by mid-May in 2001 (excused for suffering injuries) and by mid-June in 2002 (not excused at all). Others might question the team's effort the last two months of 2000, but I would chalk up the team's indifference to having a fat lead in the division.

The players like Manuel, however it's highly debatable he has ever gotten their best effort. Now in his SIXTH season as Sox manager, that's the problem.

Lip Man 1
04-04-2003, 09:38 PM
From the "official" White Sox web site:

Manager Jerry Manuel drew a mixed response, with more jeers than cheers .

Nobody ever said White Sox fans were stupid.

I think the reason so many fans dislike Manuel as a field manager (as opposed to a person) is because his doesn't appear to have a backbone. When this team needs a kick in the ass, or an umpire needs a serious confrontation, Manager Gandhi is never around.

Considering how this team has underachieved since July 2000, many Sox fans feel part of the reason (notice I said part) is because of him. I think Sox fans are getting tired of being a 'training ground" for inexperienced managers since ownership won't pay to bring in a great one.

Injuries were a legit excuse in 2001 (although it could be argued Manuel's "friend" and hand picked pitching coach is what caused those injuries to begin with) but not last season.

Also I think many Sox fans (most) want a manager in the mold of a Tony LaRussa, Earl Weaver, Lou Piniella, Billy Martin somebody who at least looks like they care.

Just my opinion.

Lip

calebhatesyou
04-04-2003, 09:41 PM
i agree with you, lowesox. i think the nature of message boards is to let some steam off with a somewhat contrived identity (e.g. dumb names with no faces). people would trash own mom if it would make them feel better.

i also agree with your assesment of the team. i like these guys. though, i would like to see the sox get accellerated production out of their new players (like colon and loiza), but this is not typically the sox m.o. we usually get status quo "corpse ball" out of the players we trade for (i.e. wells, belle, tony phillips, etc.) this is really dishartening concidering how players seem to flurish AFTER being in a sox uni. (wells, camron, sosa, etc.). i don't even hove a problem with his jerry manuel's so called "tinkering". but i think it wasn't conducive with previous rosters ( players like leifer need consistant PT), but i think the GM has given jerry a good roster for his expectations from his players. he has pros that can handle, and in some cases need, two or three or more days off a week. jose, rios, daubach, sandy, and graffy are all guys who can do what jerry asks when he asks with no questions asked. and lets face it, the positions that are being platooned ( namely center) are being platooned because nobody is that much better than the other guy at those positions ( aRow is about as good a borchard and rios can fill that position is they crack instead of developing)



in short, i like jerry, especially with this years team. he still deserves to be a bit of a "hot seat", but he doesn't deserve to have the temp. of that hot seat posted on this web site every day, lest we stoop to the level of university of florida fans who had a "fire ron zook" page up before the season started (it's ok if nobody on this message board knows about this but i went to UF)

look i just hope i gave lowesox some more ammo against the head hunters out there

michigan84
04-04-2003, 09:57 PM
Yes

lowesox
04-05-2003, 12:26 AM
Ya, I agree that Manuel deserves a little bit of heat for some questionable team performances in the past. Maybe, I like him as much as I do because he came in after Bevington and anybody would look like a genius compared to Bevington.

But its a great point that this is a perfect team for Jerry to manage. I think he's more of a chess player than he's a motivator and a team full of veterans shouldn't need to be motivated. Take Valentin for instance. He's sort of been designated our team leader and the other day against KC he stepped it up and hit two key 2-run homers. Now, I know we lost but if our veterans play like that we won't need a guy who runs around picking fights with umpires - we'll need a guy who can outwit the other manager.

If 50 games in the veterans aren't stepping it up, then I'll agree we'll need to make a change.

pudge
04-05-2003, 12:36 AM
I have to say, I don't dislike Manual as much as I disliked Lamont. He was brutal. He closed his eyes and let that '93 team win the division. The problem is, he didn't wake-up for the play-offs. (I think he's still asleep!) Bevington, of course, was even worse.

We've never really had anyone in Chicago to measure by. Living in Seattle, I can say I don't think Manual comes close to how Lou Pinella managed the Mariners. Pinella went balls-out trying to win every game. (You'd have to manage like that to get your team to win 116 games in one season.) Sure, Pinella has had his disappointing years too (and it's not like he's going to lead the Devil Rays to the title), and he never led the Mariners to the World Series, but he did once win a World Series (Reds in '90) and that's a lot more than Manual can say. As a simple example, Pinella would let Arthur Rhodes pitch a FULL INNING - I wish Manual would let Marte do the same!

On a final note, the best season by a Sox manager that I've seen was Jeff Torborg in '90 - he had that team playing little ball like no other team I've seen.

Tragg
04-05-2003, 08:56 AM
As a tactician, Manuel is about as bad as they come.
As a clubhouse manager, keeping the team together and playing hard, he's top tier.

MikeKreevich
04-05-2003, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Tragg
As a tactician, Manuel is about as bad as they come.
As a clubhouse manager, keeping the team together and playing hard, he's top tier.
I agree. His pitching staff management needs a lot of improvement.

LuvSox
04-05-2003, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by calebhatesyou
i agree with you, lowesox. i think the nature of message boards is to let some steam off with a somewhat contrived identity (e.g. dumb names with no faces). people would trash own mom if it would make them feel better.



That's a strong accusation you have made. I'm going to let you in on something. This isn't the UF football page or the NSYNC fan site. The Sox fans here are very mature and knowledgeable. No one is hiding behind their screen name just to be belligerent. They are also very passionate about the team, with strong opinions on many subjects, including the manager. There are no factions here, nobody needs "ammo" to support their arguments. WSI isn't your average internet playground. We all have opinions that can be expressed without attacking each other personally.

WinningUgly!
04-05-2003, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by LuvSox
That's a strong accusation you have made. I'm going to let you in on something. This isn't the UF football page or the NSYNC fan site. The Sox fans here are very mature and knowledgeable. No one is hiding behind their screen name just to be belligerent. They are also very passionate about the team, with strong opinions on many subjects, including the manager. There are no factions here, nobody needs "ammo" to support their arguments. WSI isn't your average internet playground. We all have opinions that can be expressed without attacking each other personally.

True dat!

Daver
04-05-2003, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by LuvSox
That's a strong accusation you have made. I'm going to let you in on something. This isn't the UF football page or the NSYNC fan site. The Sox fans here are very mature and knowledgeable. No one is hiding behind their screen name just to be belligerent. They are also very passionate about the team, with strong opinions on many subjects, including the manager. There are no factions here, nobody needs "ammo" to support their arguments. WSI isn't your average internet playground. We all have opinions that can be expressed without attacking each other personally.

Kind of like one big dysfunctional family.

jeremyb1
04-05-2003, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
From the "official" White Sox web site:

Manager Jerry Manuel drew a mixed response, with more jeers than cheers .

Nobody ever said White Sox fans were stupid.

I think the reason so many fans dislike Manuel as a field manager (as opposed to a person) is because his doesn't appear to have a backbone. When this team needs a kick in the ass, or an umpire needs a serious confrontation, Manager Gandhi is never around.

Considering how this team has underachieved since July 2000, many Sox fans feel part of the reason (notice I said part) is because of him. I think Sox fans are getting tired of being a 'training ground" for inexperienced managers since ownership won't pay to bring in a great one.

Injuries were a legit excuse in 2001 (although it could be argued Manuel's "friend" and hand picked pitching coach is what caused those injuries to begin with) but not last season.

Also I think many Sox fans (most) want a manager in the mold of a Tony LaRussa, Earl Weaver, Lou Piniella, Billy Martin somebody who at least looks like they care.

Just my opinion.

that's who manuel is though. he's a pacifist, a follower of ghandi. he doesn't swear. he's gotten on the umpires a few times but he's not that kind of manager that will scream a lot. he's very laid back. if you don't think laid back managers can be effective then that's a different issue but you can't blame manuel for being himself.

WinningUgly!
04-05-2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
that's who manuel is though. he's a pacifist, a follower of ghandi. he doesn't swear. he's gotten on the umpires a few times but he's not that kind of manager that will scream a lot. he's very laid back. if you don't think laid back managers can be effective then that's a different issue but you can't blame manuel for being himself. Tough to get more laid back than Joe Torre...he's done alright.

czalgosz
04-06-2003, 07:17 PM
Actually, I think pitching staff management is one of the things that Manuel has excelled at. Despite the fact that he's usually very careful with his starters, its very rare that Manuel finds himself running out of quality arms in the bullpen late in games.

I don't mind his bringing guys in and out of the lineup, as long as they show that they belong there. Daubach definitely deserves starts, especially if Konerko and Lee aren't producing. Rios I'm not as sold on, but as long as most of his PAs come at the expense of Rowand, I'm not too unhappy.

It's always been his tendency not to pinch-hit for the bottom of the order that's driven me nuts. Sandy Alomar and Royce Clayton hit for themselves way too much the past two seasons.

So far this season, though, he's been using his bench a lot more often, so that's a good sign.

I definitely do NOT want to see a screamer like Piniella as Sox manager. For one thing, he has a tendency to destroy young pitchers from overwork, as he thinks that pitchers are babied too much. As a result, his teams tend to have a lot of injuries to their pitching staff. Also, he tends to pick some marginal scrub player like and use them a lot because he "likes their attitude" or whatever. In short, he's overrated.

Anyway, I'm not the biggest Manuel fan, but I do believe in continuity, and keeping a guy unless he shows that he sucks. There's something to be said for keeping a manager for a long time in this day of high turnover rates for players. That said, if the Sox fall out of it by the all-star break this summer, I'll be calling for Manuel's head the same as everyone. This team is too talented not to contend.

pudge
04-06-2003, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


I definitely do NOT want to see a screamer like Piniella as Sox manager. For one thing, he has a tendency to destroy young pitchers from overwork, as he thinks that pitchers are babied too much. As a result, his teams tend to have a lot of injuries to their pitching staff. Also, he tends to pick some marginal scrub player like and use them a lot because he "likes their attitude" or whatever. In short, he's overrated.


I wouldn't totally disagree that he's overrated, but the injury thing is not accurate... Look at the Sox injury problems in 2000-2001, so would you make the same accusation against Manual? I've lived in Seattle through the entire Pinella regime, and extensive injuries were never an issue. As a matter of fact, his teams have been pretty dang healthy.

As for picking out players he doesn't like, that is very true. If he were on the Sox, he'd probably chew Carlos Lee a new ass, and frankly, I'm not so sure that'd be a bad thing. But he's definitely not a good manager for a team with fragile egos... then again, a team with fragile egos rarely wins a championship.

MarqSox
04-07-2003, 01:38 PM
For me, Manuel is that coworker that doesn't really know what he's doing and you always have to pick up the slack for his incompetance, but he's just such a loveable guy you don't want to see him go. It's sad to say, because I'd just as soon have Bob Knight manage the team if it meant winning a championship ... but I just can't stay mad at Manuel.