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Viva Magglio
04-02-2003, 09:04 PM
...Graffanino bunted on his own. Oops.

TheBigHurt
04-02-2003, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
...Graffanino bunted on his own. Oops.

You sure thats not supposed to be in teal?????? :)

BE GOOD tinker-roo

LuvSox
04-02-2003, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
...Graffanino bunted on his own. Oops.

That's a load of crap, Jerry's full of it. Did you see how long Crappanino was looking at Kimm? I'm not positive but I don't think they have a sign for "Swing, bunt, take or do whatever the hell you want."

Viva Magglio
04-02-2003, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by TheBigHurt
You sure thats not supposed to be in teal?????? :)

BE GOOD tinker-roo

The Score played a soundbyte of Manuel saying words to that effect in the 8:00 update.

TheBigHurt
04-02-2003, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
The Score played a soundbyte of Manuel saying words to that effect in the 8:00 update.

DID you check the a ahh voice transmitter thing?? :)

BE GOOD

duke of dorwood
04-02-2003, 09:25 PM
If thats true, then the manager has less control than I thought. On your own in a game situation?

joecrede
04-02-2003, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by LuvSox
That's a load of crap, Jerry's full of it. Did you see how long Crappanino was looking at Kimm? I'm not positive but I don't think they have a sign for "Swing, bunt, take or do whatever the hell you want."

There's a lot of things I'd accuse JM of being, but he isn't a liar. Graffinino ain't the most heads-up player remember the force out at third vs the Cubs a couple of years ago?

PaleHoseGeorge
04-02-2003, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
There's a lot of things I'd accuse JM of being, but he isn't a liar. Graffinino ain't the most heads-up player remember the force out at third vs the Cubs a couple of years ago?

This is what happens when you play for Tampa Bay. You become infected, sort of like wearing those North Side baby bear pajamas.

:smile:

joecrede
04-02-2003, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
If thats true, then the manager has less control than I thought. On your own in a game situation?

I hear ya', but I've never heard of a "do not bunt sign". With two strikes that's a truth that should be self-evident.

RKMeibalane
04-02-2003, 09:33 PM
This is the kind of crap that I had hoped was left behind when last season ended. I see that people still don't have a clue what was going on. If what Manuel says is true, then Graffanino is an idiot. NEVER bunt with two strikes. Any ten-year-old Little Leaguer could tell you that. Once again, the Sox fall victim to bad fundamentals. Will this crap ever end?

Lip Man 1
04-02-2003, 09:44 PM
RK asks: "Will this crap ever end?"

Probably not...it hasn't for the last five years.

Seriously, this is the same type of mentality that inspired Carlos The Butcher Lee to attempt to steal 3rd base with less then two outs and the tying run at the plate, not once...not twice...but THREE times in the past two years.

Did Jerry Manuel bench him for stupidity? No...

Either the Sox are an incredibly dumb bunch from a baseball standpoint or the manager (the only constant over the past five years) isn't able to teach fundamentals.

If the Sox are in fact that stupid, then the only recourse I can see is to bench players (a la Eddie Stanky) for mistakes that they continue to make over and over again until they learn.

Manuel doesn't seem willing to do this so the mistakes will go on.

Lip

LuvSox
04-02-2003, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I hear ya', but I've never heard of a "do not bunt sign". With two strikes that's a truth that should be self-evident.

I'll give you that one. But maybe it's time to hold their hands.

RKMeibalane
04-02-2003, 09:54 PM
There is one possibility that we have not considered yet. What if Graffanino did not realize how many strikes had been thrown to that point in the at-bat? I know that sounds ridiculous, but Carlos had the same problem on Monday. The Sox are notorious for their awful fundamentals, and it wouldn't surprise me if Tony did in fact lose count.

joecrede
04-03-2003, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
RK asks: "Will this crap ever end?"

If the Sox are in fact that stupid, then the only recourse I can see is to bench players (a la Eddie Stanky) for mistakes that they continue to make over and over again until they learn.

Manuel doesn't seem willing to do this so the mistakes will go on.

Lip

How many world championships did Stanky win by benching players who continually made mistakes?

Graffinino's stupidity is part of his game. To say he can't be a useful player or shouldn't be used in game situations because of it is a stretch because his brain cramps have happened relatively infrequently.

Lip Man 1
04-03-2003, 01:03 AM
Joe:

He won the same number (in less time) as Jerry Manuel.

My point is though, when does the madness stop? and how do you stop it??

How many times do you give a player to mentally screw up and cost the Sox a game before doing something? How many times do you let a guy get picked off, miss a bunt, fail to hit the other way?

Can you quantify a number for me? and why do you cut Graffanino some slack but not Lee (or whomever).

Remember Graff cost the Sox a game against the Cubs when he had a brain cramp and tagged 3rd base even though the force play was NOT on. The Cubs won in extra innings.

Benching my be the only thing that gets through since you can't fine players for screwing up. I offer this as an example but if somebody has a better idea please feel free to post it.

Something has got to be done.

Lip

ShoelessFred
04-03-2003, 01:25 AM
this once again proves the point that jerry has to go! tony bunted on his own? i can see this being ok if it was the 3rd inning or so. but with the game on the line this is when the manager comes into play. this is when you make the big decisions. you don't just sit there and let whatever happens happen. YOU GO WITH YOUR GUT AND EITHER WIN THE GAME OR LOSE IT. that is your job jerry and if you haven't learned this by now you are dumber than terry bevington!!!!! :angry:

joecrede
04-03-2003, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Joe:

He won the same number (in less time) as Jerry Manuel.

My point is though, when does the madness stop? and how do you stop it??

How many times do you give a player to mentally screw up and cost the Sox a game before doing something? How many times do you let a guy get picked off, miss a bunt, fail to hit the other way?

Can you quantify a number for me? and why do you cut Graffanino some slack but not Lee (or whomever).

Remember Graff cost the Sox a game against the Cubs when he had a brain cramp and tagged 3rd base even though the force play was NOT on. The Cubs won in extra innings.

Benching my be the only thing that gets through since you can't fine players for screwing up. I offer this as an example but if somebody has a better idea please feel free to post it.

Something has got to be done.

Lip

You bench players because of lack of effort. You replace stupid players with less-stupid ones whenever possible if the less-stupid player is of equal or better talent.

To bench or fine a player who doesn't get a bunt down or doesn't hit the ball to the right side if he's attempting to do it is silly. There's something called an opposing pitcher out there who is trying to keep him from doing that. If major league hitters are good enough to place the ball where they want every time (hitting to the right side) why don't they just hit the ball over the infielders and in front of the outfielders?

As far as Lee goes, I think he should be praised for putting the work in to become a slightly above average defensive LF'er regardless of his occasional past base running gaffes.

Paulwny
04-03-2003, 12:02 PM
I'm not defending Graff, I don't like 2 strike bunts but, J Valentin did the same thing 3 yrs ago against the yankmees. I believe the score was tied and the sox had runners on 1st and 2nd, with a 3-2 count Valentin bunted and advanced the runners and the sox won the game. It was considered a "gutsy " move by Jose.
When it works you're a hero, when it doesn't you don't know fundamental baseball.

voodoochile
04-03-2003, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I'm not defending Graff, I don't like 2 strike bunts but, J Valentin did the same thing 3 yrs ago against the yankmees. I believe the score was tied and the sox had runners on 1st and 2nd, with a 3-2 count Valentin bunted and advanced the runners and the sox won the game. It was considered a "gutsy " move by Jose.
When it works you're a hero, when it doesn't you don't know fundamental baseball.

That's the way it ALWAYS is with "hustle plays": Make it to third by stretching double with nobody out and you are a hero. A dumbass hero, but a hero none the less...

cheeses_h_rice
04-03-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by ShoelessFred
this once again proves the point that jerry has to go! tony bunted on his own? i can see this being ok if it was the 3rd inning or so. but with the game on the line this is when the manager comes into play. this is when you make the big decisions. you don't just sit there and let whatever happens happen. YOU GO WITH YOUR GUT AND EITHER WIN THE GAME OR LOSE IT. that is your job jerry and if you haven't learned this by now you are dumber than terry bevington!!!!! :angry:

Dude, no offense, but your .sig is WAY too big.

voodoochile
04-03-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Dude, no offense, but your .sig is WAY too big.

I sent him an e-mail. It will be taken care of later today.

soxrme
04-03-2003, 01:02 PM
TONY MADE A MISTAKE. A MAJOR LEAGUER SHOULD BE ABLE TO LAY DOWN A DAMN BUNT. THAT IS WHY HE WILL NEVER BE MORE THAN A UTILITY PLAYER

harwar
04-03-2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by soxrme
TONY MADE A MISTAKE. A MAJOR LEAGUER SHOULD BE ABLE TO LAY DOWN A DAMN BUNT. THAT IS WHY HE WILL NEVER BE MORE THAN A UTILITY PLAYER

What i'm wondering about is that even tho Manuel took the bunt off after 2 strikes,Tony decided,on his own,to go ahead and bunt anyway.Does J.M. have control of this team or not?