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the scorekeeper
04-01-2003, 02:13 PM
According to Will Carroll's "Under the Knife" on Baseball Prospectus:

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Dan Wright continued his tour of top surgeons, and White Sox sources finally let loose on him. "He's seen every doctor on both coasts, so maybe he'll finally take [our medical staff's] word for it when we tell him he's OK to pitch," said an insider. "He's getting bad advice from someone, and we're not sure where it's coming from."
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That just sounds great!

Randar68
04-01-2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by the scorekeeper
According to Will Carroll's "Under the Knife" on Baseball Prospectus:

---
Dan Wright continued his tour of top surgeons, and White Sox sources finally let loose on him. "He's seen every doctor on both coasts, so maybe he'll finally take [our medical staff's] word for it when we tell him he's OK to pitch," said an insider. "He's getting bad advice from someone, and we're not sure where it's coming from."
---

That just sounds great!


The kid has always been a headcase and he has never been hurt before. It's a feeling he's never experienced.

Let's cut him a little slack.

fuzzy_patters
04-01-2003, 02:27 PM
Am I the only one who is having flashbacks to Jim Parque? Pitching through pain and minor injuries is part of the game. Someone should tell Wright to not be such a ***** (sorry if that word offends anyone).

edit: ***** rhymes with wussy

bc2k
04-01-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
Am I the only one who is having flashbacks to Jim Parque? Pitching through pain and minor injuries is part of the game. Someone should tell Wright to not be such a ***** (sorry if that word offends anyone).

edit: ***** rhymes with wussy

Dan's arm is how he puts food on the table. Pitching is his life's work.

Let me ask you this: Would you trust the Sox "intelligence" after the 2001 season? Would you trust James Andrews, the same guy that misread Mike Sirotka's MRI? Andrews is the guy that told the Blue Jays that Sirotka is healthy during the "Shouldergate" trade! Granted Siro had a shoulder problem and Andrews works better with elbow problems, but this shows that even the "best in the business" isn't 100% accurate.

LuvSox
04-01-2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
edit: ***** rhymes with wussy

Jeter?

gosox41
04-01-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Dan's arm is how he puts food on the table. Pitching is his life's work.

Let me ask you this: Would you trust the Sox "intelligence" after the 2001 season? Would you trust James Andrews, the same guy that misread Mike Sirotka's MRI? Andrews is the guy that told the Blue Jays that Sirotka is healthy during the "Shouldergate" trade! Granted Siro had a shoulder problem and Andrews works better with elbow problems, but this shows that even the "best in the business" isn't 100% accurate.

I don't blame Danny Wright at all. Let him nip this problem in the bud. The Sox history of handling injured pitchers ispathetic. Also, only Wright knows how much pain he's in. I'm not going to question his heart just like I never doubted Thomas was legitimately hurt before we found out he tore his biceps.

Bob

SoxxoS
04-01-2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Dan's arm is how he puts food on the table. Pitching is his life's work.

Let me ask you this: Would you trust the Sox "intelligence" after the 2001 season? Would you trust James Andrews, the same guy that misread Mike Sirotka's MRI? Andrews is the guy that told the Blue Jays that Sirotka is healthy during the "Shouldergate" trade! Granted Siro had a shoulder problem and Andrews works better with elbow problems, but this shows that even the "best in the business" isn't 100% accurate.

Right on, bc. Absolutely right.

Randar68
04-01-2003, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I don't blame Danny Wright at all. Let him nip this problem in the bud. The Sox history of handling injured pitchers ispathetic. Also, only Wright knows how much pain he's in. I'm not going to question his heart just like I never doubted Thomas was legitimately hurt before we found out he tore his biceps.

Bob

Well, I'd like to believe this revisionist piece of history, but for 10+ years the Sox had the fewest pitching injuries of any major league team. They also were able to let guys like Black Jack and Alvarez and Fernandez go knowing they did or would have health problems.

The 2001 season where there were clearly a couple of mistakes among a rash of serious injuries was just that. It was a bad season and some mistakes were made. Overall, the Sox have one of the best medical staffs in baseball.

Daver
04-01-2003, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by Randar68

The 2001 season where there were clearly a couple of mistakes among a rash of serious injuries was just that. It was a bad season and some mistakes were made. Overall, the Sox have one of the best medical staffs in baseball.

You can lay some of the blame for 2001 on the shoulders of a certain pitching coach that is still on the Sox payroll but is not allowed anywhere near a Sox pitcher...........

kermittheefrog
04-01-2003, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Dan's arm is how he puts food on the table. Pitching is his life's work.

Let me ask you this: Would you trust the Sox "intelligence" after the 2001 season? Would you trust James Andrews, the same guy that misread Mike Sirotka's MRI? Andrews is the guy that told the Blue Jays that Sirotka is healthy during the "Shouldergate" trade! Granted Siro had a shoulder problem and Andrews works better with elbow problems, but this shows that even the "best in the business" isn't 100% accurate.

First of all you're completely wrong. The Jays made the Sirotka/Wells trade before giving Sirotka an MRI. They later took a look at his shoulder and found he was injured then cried foul. Dr. James Andrews is one of the best, if not the best at evaluating pitching injuries. Furthermore at this point Wright has seen virtually every expert on these injuries and they all say he's healthy.

I can really see this from both sides. Wright shouldn't feel comfortable going to the mound in pain and I'd rather have a guy who doesn't want to pitch through pain than one who kills his arm trying to be tough. Not that tough isn't valuable but smart is more valuable. At the same time the Sox are probably frustrated because they've spent a lot of money trying to see whats wrong with Wright and the experts keep saying the Sox are right, his arm is OK.

This is a weird situation. I wish I knew enough to make a call on this.

Daver
04-01-2003, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog

I can really see this from both sides. Wright shouldn't feel comfortable going to the mound in pain and I'd rather have a guy who doesn't want to pitch through pain than one who kills his arm trying to be tough. Not that tough isn't valuable but smart is more valuable.



Rocky Biddle is a prime example of a guy being to tough for his own good,he cost himself a decent chance at the Sox starting rotation in 2002 by trying to rush back from an injury only to reinjure himself in the process.

southpaw40
04-02-2003, 09:53 AM
Has he started his rehab program yet? I thought he was supposed to be preparing to be back with the team by late April.
Has that changed?

maurice
04-02-2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I'd rather have a guy who doesn't want to pitch through pain than one who kills his arm trying to be tough.

True, but there's a third category -- the guy who doesn't want to pitch in pain even though the docs say he won't kill his arm. Mental toughness is a big key for major league pitchers. Here's hoping Danny Wright isn't Jason Bere II.

gosox41
04-02-2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Well, I'd like to believe this revisionist piece of history, but for 10+ years the Sox had the fewest pitching injuries of any major league team. They also were able to let guys like Black Jack and Alvarez and Fernandez go knowing they did or would have health problems.

The 2001 season where there were clearly a couple of mistakes among a rash of serious injuries was just that. It was a bad season and some mistakes were made. Overall, the Sox have one of the best medical staffs in baseball.

The Sox have a history of burning out young pitchers. The fact that they let Black Jack, Alvarez, and Fernandez go knowing they had health problems explains it. These 3 and Bere came through the Sox system (though ALvarez was in the Ranger system for a year or two.) The Sox had info. (whether it was their mechanics, # of innnings pitched, etc) and they failed to try to correct it.

Any wonder why 4 young pitchers from the 1993 team were ineffective 5 years later (and some earlier?) Then look at Sirotka, Bertotti, Parque, Barcelo too name a few more that had major injury problems.

This seems like a high rate of young major league pitching that had career threatening injuries to say it's just a bad run.

Bob

harwar
04-02-2003, 10:47 AM
I dare say,its too late to offer Kenny Rogers more money..

Randar68
04-02-2003, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
The Sox have a history of burning out young pitchers. The fact that they let Black Jack, Alvarez, and Fernandez go knowing they had health problems explains it. These 3 and Bere came through the Sox system (though ALvarez was in the Ranger system for a year or two.) The Sox had info. (whether it was their mechanics, # of innnings pitched, etc) and they failed to try to correct it.




Are you kidding?

Alvarez and Fernandez were risks because the were FAT! You can only tell guys to lose weight so many times. Blackjack's hip problem was a degenrative disorder that had nothing to do with pitching or baseball.

Bere had arms problems, although his mechanics weren't as bad as many pitchers today. He had one problem, and when he came back too early from it, over-compensated and hurt another.

Do some homework.

bc2k
04-02-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
First of all you're completely wrong. The Jays made the Sirotka/Wells trade before giving Sirotka an MRI. They later took a look at his shoulder and found he was injured then cried foul. Dr. James Andrews is one of the best, if not the best at evaluating pitching injuries. Furthermore at this point Wright has seen virtually every expert on these injuries and they all say he's healthy.

I can really see this from both sides. Wright shouldn't feel comfortable going to the mound in pain and I'd rather have a guy who doesn't want to pitch through pain than one who kills his arm trying to be tough. Not that tough isn't valuable but smart is more valuable. At the same time the Sox are probably frustrated because they've spent a lot of money trying to see whats wrong with Wright and the experts keep saying the Sox are right, his arm is OK.

This is a weird situation. I wish I knew enough to make a call on this.

I'm afraid those "experts" are doing a lot of group think. One Sox doctor looks at the MRI, gives his opinion and then we hear the same from 5 other doctors including James Andrews. Why has there been no other readings or opinions/suggestions? How come we haven't heard from another doctor something like, "Well it could be this, but it could also be that." Wright was experiencing pain in two different points of his arm. Either Wright's MRI can only be read one way, with one opinion, or they are falling victim to group think.

Are you saying that James Andrews didn't misread Sirotka's MRI? Maybe I'm wrong, but I remember that for some reason.

And I disagree with your statement that Andrews is the best at evaluating pitchers' injuries. I would agree that he is the best surgeon, but as far as reading and evaluating, no way.

Randar68
04-02-2003, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
And I disagree with your statement that Andrews is the best at evaluating pitchers' injuries. I would agree that he is the best surgeon, but as far as reading and evaluating, no way.

Then who is?

gosox41
04-02-2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Are you kidding?

Alvarez and Fernandez were risks because the were FAT! You can only tell guys to lose weight so many times. Blackjack's hip problem was a degenrative disorder that had nothing to do with pitching or baseball.

Bere had arms problems, although his mechanics weren't as bad as many pitchers today. He had one problem, and when he came back too early from it, over-compensated and hurt another.

Do some homework.

Alvarez was fat, not that he'd be the first fat guy to have a long career. When Fernandez was drafted, there was talk about how he had a 'pitcher's body' ie thick, strong legs, etc.

Blackjack had elbow problems from overuse until a botched surgery finally ruined his career. Scouts always liked Bere's mechanics. Who rushed him back from surgery?

I do my homework. I guess by not mentioning Sirotka, Berttoti, Barcelo, and Parque that you're in agreement that the Sox did mismanage them and their injuries.

If I have time, I'll do some more research on young pitchers that flamed out early for the Sox. Here's one that just came to mind: James Baldwin. He's pretty much done as an effective pitcher.

Bob

czalgosz
04-02-2003, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Alvarez was fat, not that he'd be the first fat guy to have a long career. When Fernandez was drafted, there was talk about how he had a 'pitcher's body' ie thick, strong legs, etc.

Blackjack had elbow problems from overuse until a botched surgery finally ruined his career. Scouts always liked Bere's mechanics. Who rushed him back from surgery?

I do my homework. I guess by not mentioning Sirotka, Berttoti, Barcelo, and Parque that you're in agreement that the Sox did mismanage them and their injuries.

If I have time, I'll do some more research on young pitchers that flamed out early for the Sox. Here's one that just came to mind: James Baldwin. He's pretty much done as an effective pitcher.

Bob

Young pitchers get hurt and flame out all the time for every team - it's a fact of the sport. As a matter of fact, the Sox had lower-than-average overall injury rates for pitchers until 2001, when the law of averages caught up with them in a big way.

I don't know about Bertotti, but Barcelo had injury problems before he ever joined the Sox organization. That's why the Giants were willing to give him up. They knew his potential, but were concerned about his durability.

Baldwin was never a very good pitcher. His 1/2 good season in 2000 was a fluke.

EDIT: And when Fernandez was drafted, he was compared to Tom Seaver in body type. By the time he was done, he looked more like John Candy. There's no problem with being big, but he let his weight get out of control. So did Alvarez.

maurice
04-02-2003, 03:39 PM
Bere remains a great mystery to me. I'm still unclear whether the majority of his problems were physical or mental, and I'm not sure any of it can be blamed on the Sox.

I don't think any of the other guys "burned out" in a manner which actually hurt the Sox. Alvarez, Fernandez, McDowell, and Sirotka pitched well for the Sox, and didn't decline until after they left. Baldwin had a couple of good half-seasons for the Sox but otherwise sucked. Berttoti and Barcelo never really did much of anything for the Sox. The Sox intended to handle Parque's rehab properly, but Parque insisted that he be rushed back to the majors before he was ready. The jury is still out on whether he can ressurect his career.

Lip Man 1
04-02-2003, 03:49 PM
For what it's worth, the Tribune just had a story on Bere in their baseball preview. Ron Scheuler was quoted as saying that Bere
ruined his own career because he altered his delivery before the start of the 95 season.

Scheuler said Bere wanted to imitate his hero Roger Clemens and changed the position of his hands, which put strain on his elbow.

Of course that's according to Scheuler.

Lip

fuzzy_patters
04-02-2003, 11:00 PM
Barcelo wasn't allowed to pitch for the Sox at first because he was coming off surgery. The first tim he hurt himself he pitched in the Giants organization.