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View Full Version : Need for speed


Soxboyrob
03-31-2003, 05:00 PM
I'm a bit concerned about our offense. We're going to score a ton of runs this year, no doubt. That's not what bothers me. What I fear is that we aren't blessed w/ many high OBP guys or guys w/ much speed. We're essentially a station to station team that will see many rallies get stomped by hitting into DPs at inopportune times.

What I've seen today is a lot of guys hacking at bad pitches, rather than working counts and getting on base. It's only one game, so the potential loss doesn't bother me so much as the no speed/low OBP trend. Do we have an alternative option at lead-off if Jimenez is not the guy?

Today, corpseball.

WhiteSoxWinner
03-31-2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
Today, corpseball.

AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! We haven't even made it through opening day and this word has arisen from the unholy grave we tried to bury it in at the end of last season!!!! This is like Night of the Living Dead!!! Or Michael Jackson's Thriller!!!

TheBigHurt
03-31-2003, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
Do we have an alternative option at lead-off if Jimenez is not the guy?



well theres the kid named i think its WILLIE HARRIS or something :)

Who I think should be a everyday leadoff hitter

duke of dorwood
03-31-2003, 05:57 PM
I'd like to see C Lee bat second, putting a left hander, Manos down in the mix breaking up the string of right handers.

guillen4life13
03-31-2003, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! We haven't even made it through opening day and this word has arisen from the unholy grave we tried to bury it in at the end of last season!!!! This is like Night of the Living Dead!!! Or Michael Jackson's Thriller!!!

Dude, I agree with Soxboyrob. The Sox in the last few years have set a trend of having good power/average hitters, but their OBP's have been relatively weak. As the article on Billy Beane showed, OBP is an undervalued statistic. A high batting average is no good unless you have the OBP to go along with it. If you hit .300, but you hardly walk or drive in runs, what's your name? Chris Singleton, or another similar player. If you hit .300 with a .390 OBP, you're a good hitter (Ideal for leadoff if you have speed.) The Sox haven't had a good OBP guy in the last few years. Other than Thomas (and now, hopefully, Lee), walks have been few and far between. Paul and Maggs take them here and there, but it's rare enough to be worried about the offensive state. Hopefully D'Ang, and the others can learn to take walks more. I'm still optimistic about the season (this offense is, on paper, improved from what it was last year, and they were damn good last year).

OfficerKarkovice
03-31-2003, 07:26 PM
If anyone can tell me why Josh Paul is here instead of Willie Harris it would be greatly appreciated.

Harris is the perfect guy to fill out that last roster spot. He can come in and pinch run, lay down a good bunt, and fill in at several defensive positions.

I know Paul is out of options but if we lose him I could care less. He seems like a good guy and all but he just is no use to us. If Sandy gets hurt we still have Olivo, and the guy who was catching in ST...Burke?...looked better than Paul anyway.

Hangar18
03-31-2003, 07:47 PM
I know one thing, were really really going to miss Durham hitting 2nd in our lineup. Guys like him compliment a true leadoff hitter, and now that we have neither, unless we get flat out hitting, your going to see a lot of what I saw today.....5-4-3, 6-4-3,
5-4, 6-4 put outs all season. Weve GOT to run the bases better, and being a slow team Does Not Help Things. Ideally, it would be awesome to have speed at the TOP and BOTTOM of your lineup, that way someone is ALWAYS on and theres always a threat of a single tying the game. I think today I realized how much were going to miss Ray Durham, and wish South Side Willie could hit the backside of a bears behind with a banjo a little more

Soxboyrob
03-31-2003, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I know one thing, were really really going to miss Durham hitting 2nd in our lineup. Guys like him compliment a true leadoff hitter, and now that we have neither, unless we get flat out hitting, your going to see a lot of what I saw today.....5-4-3, 6-4-3,
5-4, 6-4 put outs all season.

I was thinking we were going to miss Durham hitting leadoff in our lineup, but I get your point. I'm with you....we'll score a lot of runs....perhaps 950-1,000. But we'll have several days like today, where we hack at balls in the dirt and can't get guys on base and then when we finally get guys on base, 6-4-3. This isn't a team that will manufacture runs very often. The sky isn't falling yet, but it's days like this that should serve as a reminder why some prognosticators still think the Twins are the team to beat.

Lip Man 1
03-31-2003, 10:47 PM
It's funny you guys mention "speed." I was reading the Sox preview in Sports Illustrated today and was struck by the fact that the leading base stealer in the starting line up was Ordonez with SEVEN last season.

These are now the "slow slow" White Sox, as opposed to the "go go" White Sox.

Obviously it doesn't bother management however as they expect the Sox to score eight runs a game (like today!)

I guess they seem to think all Sox fans want is three run homers and this team seems incapable of executing "little ball" anyway. (Either the manager and coaches can't teach it or the players are stupid in a baseball sense.)

Listening to the post game audio comments both Thomas and Manuel admitted that the Sox were "antsy" today, swinging at balls out of the strike zone (Manuel specifically mentioned Carlos "The Butcher" Lee.)

Thomas said the problem was particularly bad the second time through the lineup.

Something to look forward to on Wednesday when another "no name" pitcher takes the mound for the Royals.

Lip

doublem23
03-31-2003, 11:00 PM
As long as they win, they can steal a collective 5 bases and I'll be happy as ****.

Lip Man 1
03-31-2003, 11:36 PM
As Shakespear said "there in lies the rub..."

When they CAN'T hit three run home runs (like today) they seen incapable or unwilling to generate any type of offense via "little ball." Not having a lot of team speed is only going to make that task even more difficult.

Funny Manager Gandhi has claimed that he wants to play National League style ball. Then why doesn't he insist on keeping the type of players who can do that? or why can't he teach the players that he has at least something to be able to improve their chances of playing that style when they have to?

Lip

fuzzy_patters
03-31-2003, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
As Shakespear said "there in lies the rub..."

When they CAN'T hit three run home runs (like today) they seen incapable or unwilling to generate any type of offense via "little ball." Not having a lot of team speed is only going to make that task even more difficult.

Funny Manager Gandhi has claimed that he wants to play National League style ball. Then why doesn't he insist on keeping the type of players who can do that? or why can't he teach the players that he has at least something to be able to improve their chances of playing that style when they have to?

Lip

This is what makes me wonder why Rowand is batting 8th and Alomar 9th. Wouldn't it make more sense to let Rowand bat 9th so that there is at least a little bit of speed when you turn the lineup over? Furthermore, a faster nine hitter allows you to try and steal bases when there are two outs. That way, you either get a man in scoring position for Jimenez, or Rowand gets thrown out allowing Jimenez, Valentin, and Thomas to lead off the next inning. It seems that every other manager in the American League understands that your second leadoff man is your ninth hitter. Why can't Jerry Manual figure it out?

Hangar18
04-01-2003, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
This is what makes me wonder why Rowand is batting 8th and Alomar 9th. Wouldn't it make more sense to let Rowand bat 9th so that there is at least a little bit of speed when you turn the lineup over? Furthermore, a faster nine hitter allows you to try and steal bases when there are two outs. That way, you either get a man in scoring position for Jimenez, or Rowand gets thrown out allowing Jimenez, Valentin, and Thomas to lead off the next inning. It seems that every other manager in the American League understands that your second leadoff man is your ninth hitter. Why can't Jerry Manual figure it out?


AMEN!!!! thats what I meant when I said Speed at the TOP and BOTTOM of the order. they better address this situation soon, or this will be another long, disappointing season. not to mention another starter

Dadawg_77
04-01-2003, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Funny Manager Gandhi has claimed that he wants to play National League style ball. Then why doesn't he insist on keeping the type of players who can do that? or why can't he teach the players that he has at least something to be able to improve their chances of playing that style when they have to?

Lip

First off National League ball is crap. Any style that made Vince Colman look like an elite leadoff man is troublesome. What the Sox need is patience at the plate, which they sorely lack right in the past. You take a walk rather then swing at a bad pitch. Didn't Von Jousha have an exercise in 2000, which was to help the Sox player tell whether or not a ball was a strike or not. Speed is a nice tool to have but patience is a lot more effective. Mags, Konerko, and Lee need to have 80 to 120 walks a year for them to truly reach their total effectiveness as hitters.

baggio202
04-01-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Mags, Konerko, and Lee need to have 80 to 120 walks a year for them to truly reach their total effectiveness as hitters.

someone better teach carlos how to count to 3 before he can learn how to walk..what a dumbass

whoever said we will miss durham was understating that fact...how many ballplayers today can put up the numbers ray did???15-20 homers , 30 plus doubles , 30 steals , about a 260 obp, score 100-120 runs a year...jimenez wont come close to those numbers...no one on this team wil lcome close to 30 steals

the lack of speed really bothers me...i got a feeling we will even polarize our run scoring production more than we did last year...we are gonna have more games where we score 10 plus runs...and more games where we score 0-2 runs...its all or nothing with power hitters and no speed

hold2dibber
04-01-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
I'm a bit concerned about our offense. We're going to score a ton of runs this year, no doubt. That's not what bothers me. What I fear is that we aren't blessed w/ many high OBP guys or guys w/ much speed. We're essentially a station to station team that will see many rallies get stomped by hitting into DPs at inopportune times.

What I've seen today is a lot of guys hacking at bad pitches, rather than working counts and getting on base. It's only one game, so the potential loss doesn't bother me so much as the no speed/low OBP trend. Do we have an alternative option at lead-off if Jimenez is not the guy?

Today, corpseball.

There are VERY few prototypical lead-off guys left in the majors these days (i.e., a high OBP type with speed, ala Rickey Henderson). Jimenez isn't going to steal a lot of bases, but he has shown the ability to draw a walk and get on base at a fairly decent clip. But if he falters, the options are few and far between. One possibility, if the Sox are still in the hunt but the Marlins aren't at the deadline, is to try to trade for Luis Castillo who is, I believe, a FA at the end of the year.

steff
04-01-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by TheBigHurt
well theres the kid named i think its WILLIE HARRIS or something :)

Who I think should be a everyday leadoff hitter


Why don't you try looking at stats and using facts when posting your opinions. Miles is 100% more deserving than Harris.

Harris can't carry his OWN jock and shouldn't even be on a A team. Whiney, selfish little baby.

TheBigHurt
04-01-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
Why don't you try looking at stats and using facts when posting your opinions. Miles is 100% more deserving than Harris.

Harris can't carry his OWN jock and shouldn't even be on a A team. Whiney, selfish little baby.

WELL steff, opinions are your view on things. AND thats the beauty of them. YOUR opinions don't have to include facts or stats mainly becuse they are how you feel on a certain subject.

I WOUL D APPRECIATE IF YOU WOULDN'T CRITICIZE ME

THANK YOU &

BE GOOD

PaleHoseGeorge
04-01-2003, 03:10 PM
Some of you guys are simply too young to remember how exciting it was to watch baseball in the 70's and 80's when a top leadoff man like Lou Brock, Rickey Henderson, or Tim Raines could steal 100+ bases. You were on pins and needles just watching these guys take ball 3. Everyone in the ballpark knew what the consequences of ball 4 would be.

That era is over.

Today, the ballparks are scaled like tinker toy sets, the hitters are muscle-bound juicers, and turf playing surfaces are a thing of the past. Everybody just stands around picking the seat of their pants waiting for the 3-run home run. Borrrrring.

The Oakland Athletics are the team that has the right idea. They have everybody taking pitches and working the count, trying to draw a walk. Then when the pitcher makes a mistake... take the trash out of the park. Steals, motion, and "little ball" have nothing to do with their success. That's the way it is in the American League today.

Hangar18
04-01-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by baggio202


whoever said we will miss durham was understating that fact...how many ballplayers today can put up the numbers ray did???15-20 homers , 30 plus doubles , 30 steals , about a 260 obp, score 100-120 runs a year...jimenez wont come close to those numbers...no one on this team wil lcome close to 30 steals


That person wouldve been ME. Im pissed we have no speed on this team. that will hurt come end of the season....

Soxboyrob
04-01-2003, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
the lack of speed really bothers me...i got a feeling we will even polarize our run scoring production more than we did last year...we are gonna have more games where we score 10 plus runs...and more games where we score 0-2 runs...its all or nothing with power hitters and no speed

Very well stated. "Polarized" scoring hits the nail on the head, IMO. I picture us leading the league in times scoring over 10 runs and being among the league leaders in times scoring 3 or less. I pray that I'm wrong, however, because I'd prefer to lead the league in times scoring between 5 and 8 runs.

steff
04-01-2003, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by TheBigHurt
WELL steff, opinions are your view on things. AND thats the beauty of them. YOUR opinions don't have to include facts or stats mainly becuse they are how you feel on a certain subject.

I WOUL D APPRECIATE IF YOU WOULDN'T CRITICIZE ME

THANK YOU &

BE GOOD

When you show me where I criticized you.. I'll be sure not to do it again...

I'll wait right here...

Hangar18
04-02-2003, 09:09 AM
Wait a second, Steff brought up something I didnt think about, would Aaron Miles help solve our Speed problem? Im thinking yes...only if hes hitting. Same with Willie

TheBigHurt
04-02-2003, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by steff3603
When you show me where I criticized you.. I'll be sure not to do it again...

I'll wait right here...

WELL, steff maybe you didnt critzie me i thought you did. AND either wat I do care. YOU did make a comment that i thought you were trying to offend me.

BE GOOD

steff
04-02-2003, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by TheBigHurt
WELL, steff maybe you didnt critzie me i thought you did. AND either wat I do care. YOU did make a comment that i thought you were trying to offend me.

BE GOOD


Maybe you shouldn't think..?


Hangar.. Honestly I don't know (re the speed issue). But I DO KNOW that Harris is NOT the answer.

Hangar18
04-02-2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
Maybe you shouldn't think..?


Hangar.. Honestly I don't know (re the speed issue). But I DO KNOW that Harris is NOT the answer.

I wish Harris could just flat out HIT. would be awesome....