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Lip Man 1
03-29-2003, 01:24 PM
Gang:

With all of the uncertainty surrounding Danny Wright, and the ramifications for the Sox in terms of starting pitching, I asked Phil Rogers if he could supply any updated information.

As always he was kind enough to reply. Here is what he said, I post it for your education and discussion.

Mark,

Thanks for the note.

Honestly, I haven't heard anything. I kind of doubt the Sox would sign Shane Reynolds -- who I think will help someone but could turn into a Todd Ritchie re-run, especially for an AL club -- unless he's willing to work for close to the minimum.

If Wright is going to need surgery, it might change Kenny Williams' willingness to deal Carlos Lee. But not many people really have starting pitching to trade.

I know Sox fans turn up their noses at Sidney Ponson but they may have to might have to consider going back to the Orioles for
him, Jason Johnson or Rick Helling.

Chuck Finley would be a great option if he could get ready but I'm not sure he wants to pitch for anyone not on the West Coast.

That's my take.

Phil

Well I'll start the discusiion by saying that Rick Helling, a guy who according to The Sporting News has never had any type of arm trouble, who has averaged 14 wins for the past five years and who had 15 starts last season allowing three of fewer runs, would be a God send right now to the back of the rotation.

Just my opinion. (Of course I also argued that the Sox should have signed him AND Jeff Suppan for this year's run since they will not have Colon around next season and figure to regress in their chances of making the playoffs in 2004.)

Lip

duke of dorwood
03-29-2003, 02:24 PM
The return of Rauch to the minors already effects 2004 in my opinion. On the plus side, our new left hander in the rotation will get a valuable tase of the big leagues. With our recent history of arm injuries, I'd plan for life without Wright.

gosox41
03-29-2003, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Gang:

With all of the uncertainty surrounding Danny Wright, and the ramifications for the Sox in terms of starting pitching, I asked Phil Rogers if he could supply any updated information.

As always he was kind enough to reply. Here is what he said, I post it for your education and discussion.

Mark,

Thanks for the note.

Honestly, I haven't heard anything. I kind of doubt the Sox would sign Shane Reynolds -- who I think will help someone but could turn into a Todd Ritchie re-run, especially for an AL club -- unless he's willing to work for close to the minimum.

If Wright is going to need surgery, it might change Kenny Williams' willingness to deal Carlos Lee. But not many people really have starting pitching to trade.

I know Sox fans turn up their noses at Sidney Ponson but they may have to might have to consider going back to the Orioles for
him, Jason Johnson or Rick Helling.

Chuck Finley would be a great option if he could get ready but I'm not sure he wants to pitch for anyone not on the West Coast.

That's my take.

Phil

Well I'll start the discusiion by saying that Rick Helling, a guy who according to The Sporting News has never had any type of arm trouble, who has averaged 14 wins for the past five years and who had 15 starts last season allowing three of fewer runs, would be a God send right now to the back of the rotation.

Just my opinion. (Of course I also argued that the Sox should have signed him AND Jeff Suppan for this year's run since they will not have Colon around next season and figure to regress in their chances of making the playoffs in 2004.)

Lip


Though hardly my first choice, I can see signing Finley if he's cheap. I think Suppan and Helling are more of a waste. Sure they're healthy but I think some of the Sox young pitching can put up the same or better numbers and have more upside potential.

Bob

czalgosz
03-29-2003, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Though hardly my first choice, I can see signing Finley if he's cheap. I think Suppan and Helling are more of a waste. Sure they're healthy but I think some of the Sox young pitching can put up the same or better numbers and have more upside potential.

Bob

Signing Finley would require giving up a draft pick (I know, I thought that about Rogers, but it's actually true on Finley) which is what's preventing anyone from singing him. The pick alone would be too much to give up, let alone any salary.

Suppan and Helling are both mediocre starters and I would have nothing against either of them, but they aren't the kind of guys you lock up for more than a year. I have the feeling that there's going to be a bunch of guys like Suppan and Helling floating around cheap every offseason from now on.

The rules have changed - the value of back-of-the-rotation starters has dropped precipitously. Truly valuable starters like Colon and Buerhle are going to be expensive, but there's no sense in spending big money on anybody less valuable than them.

Lip Man 1
03-30-2003, 01:25 PM
Phil had a story on the whole Reynolds situation in the Tribune today. I thought this was an interesting comment:

"Reynolds wants to keep pitching and is certain to catch on somewhere, perhaps soon enough to open the season as someone's fifth starter. Boston and Texas are among the teams with needs. If Dan Wright is going to need surgery, the White Sox should give him a look."

Lip

gosox41
03-30-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Phil had a story on the whole Reynolds situation in the Tribune today. I thought this was an interesting comment:

"Reynolds wants to keep pitching and is certain to catch on somewhere, perhaps soon enough to open the season as someone's fifth starter. Boston and Texas are among the teams with needs. If Dan Wright is going to need surgery, the White Sox should give him a look."

Lip

I cam see him going to the Cardinals just so he can stick it to the Astros.

The only thing I don't get about his release is that Reynolds said he had assumed he already made the team implying that he wasn't approaching it with the same intensity. It was stated in the Trib. that his fastball was 3-5 MPH less. Is it normal for a proven pitcher to take the mound towards the end of spring training and not try his best stuff? Why not start to air it out a little at the end of the spring? Unless of course he didn't have it to begin with. I would assume it can be dangerous for a pitcher to take the mound and tell himself that he's not going to try to throw his best stuff.

Bob

Jerry_Manuel
03-30-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
The only thing I don't get about his release is that Reynolds said he had assumed he already made the team implying that he wasn't approaching it with the same intensity. It was stated in the Trib. that his fastball was 3-5 MPH less. Is it normal for a proven pitcher to take the mound towards the end of spring training and not try his best stuff?

If I'm not mistaken, and I may be, I'm pretty sure he is coming off an operation.

EDIT: He had an operation on his back in the summer of 2002.

guillen4life13
03-30-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I cam see him going to the Cardinals just so he can stick it to the Astros.

The only thing I don't get about his release is that Reynolds said he had assumed he already made the team implying that he wasn't approaching it with the same intensity. It was stated in the Trib. that his fastball was 3-5 MPH less. Is it normal for a proven pitcher to take the mound towards the end of spring training and not try his best stuff? Why not start to air it out a little at the end of the spring? Unless of course he didn't have it to begin with. I would assume it can be dangerous for a pitcher to take the mound and tell himself that he's not going to try to throw his best stuff.

Bob

I don't know. I mean, towards the end of ST would be the last week, correct? He was pretty much released by then right? I don't know. I think that just signing him to a minor league contract, giving him a look there, and taking it from there would be smart, required Reynolds takes a minor league contract.

jeremyb1
03-30-2003, 10:21 PM
i've yet to see any explanation of how wright could need surgery. as long as he has no structural damage to his elbow i don't see how surgery is even an option.

Lip Man 1
03-30-2003, 11:16 PM
Jeremy:

If you recall two or three weeks ago the story came out that he had bone chips in his elbow.

Bone chips (if they lock) require surgery.

I can only go by the "authority" and in this case that's Sox trainer herm Schneider who made the "surgery" comment. If he doesn't know who does? and if he made that comment in error, what does that say about the Sox "top notch" medical staff?

Lip

maurice
03-31-2003, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Well I'll start the discusiion by saying that Rick Helling, a guy who according to The Sporting News has never had any type of arm trouble, who has averaged 14 wins for the past five years and who had 15 starts last season allowing three of fewer runs, would be a God send right now to the back of the rotation. . . .

Rick Helling is a very bad pitcher. The last time he pitched in the AL (2001) he posted a 5.18 ERA, and he has never posted an ERA less than 4.31.

Lip Man 1
03-31-2003, 07:07 PM
Maurice:

Then how do you account for his success? Luck??? (Sure hope our "can't miss kids" are that lucky!)

Lip

dougs78
03-31-2003, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Maurice:

Then how do you account for his success? Luck??? (Sure hope our "can't miss kids" are that lucky!)

Lip

Actually if by "success" you mean winning 14 games, then yes it does appear as though Dan Wright was very "lucky" last year. In fact, about 14 wins with a 5.something ERA is actully pretty comparable to almost all the youngsters we've given a full season in the rotation in the past few years. Not sure how a 30+ year old helling has an advantage over a 23 year old who put up comparable numbers last year. Also not sure why you think that a ~5.0 ERA is out of reach for some of our guys like Stewart and Rauch.

Lip Man 1
03-31-2003, 10:53 PM
Maybe the fact that Helling had 15 starts last season where he allowed three of fewer runs has something to do with my thinking.

He kept the D'backs in the game and gave them a chance to win it. That's THREE runs or less, not five.

Lip

maurice
04-01-2003, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Then how do you account for his success?

:?:

You have a very interesting interpretation of the word "success." Echo Doug's comments. More particularly, in 2002, Helling started 30 games, won 10, and lost 12 for a good Arizona team, and was dumped. In 2001, he started 34 games, won 12, and lost 11 for a Texas team that scored 890 runs, and was promptly dumped by a club with a 5.71 team ERA.

So, according to you, a fellow who, over the last two years, won only 34% of his starts while losing 36% of his starts is successful. Yes, I do believe that the Sox current group of young pitchers can manage or exceed that kind of "success."

This is turning into the "more praise for nardi" thread.

fuzzy_patters
04-01-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by maurice
:?:

You have a very interesting interpretation of the word "success." Echo Doug's comments. More particularly, in 2002, Helling started 30 games, won 10, and lost 12 for a good Arizona team, and was dumped. In 2001, he started 34 games, won 12, and lost 11 for a Texas team that scored 890 runs, and was promptly dumped by a club with a 5.71 team ERA.

So, according to you, a fellow who, over the last two years, won only 34% of his starts while losing 36% of his starts is successful. Yes, I do believe that the Sox current group of young pitchers can manage or exceed that kind of "success."

This is turning into the "more praise for nardi" thread.

The funny thing about Lip is that if Helling did pitch for the Sox Lip would find a reason to rip him. It seems the grass is never green in Lip's neck of the woods.

Lip Man 1
04-01-2003, 04:07 PM
Whatever you say Fuzzy.

Bottom line, I want to win now before Social Security kicks in and I simply don't have confidence in the Sox "can't miss kids," EVER doing it.

Sorry.

Lip