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Lip Man 1
03-19-2003, 07:22 PM
Jason Stark has some interesting info on the Twins signing Kenny Rogers in his latest column:

]"It's believed Rogers actually turned down more money ($3 million) from the White Sox last month[/COLOR] . But a call from Minnesota player rep Denny Hocking, talking up the chemistry and defense of the Twins, seemed to get Rogers' attention.


"A player can tell him things that a general manager can't," Ryan says. "Denny could say, 'This is a good place to play -- good manager, good clubhouse, good defense. ' And I think players listen to that. Plus, it was getting deep into spring training, and I think he was getting antsy. He was there the next day and ready to pitch. I know that."

Hmmm.....

Lip

doublem23
03-19-2003, 07:27 PM
He can stay in Minnesota.

T Dog
03-19-2003, 11:19 PM
About 40 years ago, before there was a baseball draft, Bobby Murcer took less money to sign with the Yankees. He figured that he would make up the difference in World Series money. I don't think he ever made it to the World Series.

The Twins aren't exactly a dynasty. But they seem to have players who think they are.

RKMeibalane
03-19-2003, 11:33 PM
Prediction: Kenny Rogers won't win ten games this season.

Fridaythe13thJason
03-20-2003, 01:33 AM
I wouldn't be so sure of Kenny Rogers being awful this year. He has put up some fine numbers for some awful teams, and the kind of stuff he has doesn't really depreciate with age. He's a junk-baller. While I honestly don't hope for anything remotely good from him, I was definitely not too happy when he signed with the Twins.

RichH55
03-20-2003, 03:18 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Jason Stark has some interesting info on the Twins signing Kenny Rogers in his latest column:

]"It's believed Rogers actually turned down more money ($3 million) from the White Sox last month[/COLOR] . But a call from Minnesota player rep Denny Hocking, talking up the chemistry and defense of the Twins, seemed to get Rogers' attention.


"A player can tell him things that a general manager can't," Ryan says. "Denny could say, 'This is a good place to play -- good manager, good clubhouse, good defense. ' And I think players listen to that. Plus, it was getting deep into spring training, and I think he was getting antsy. He was there the next day and ready to pitch. I know that."

Hmmm.....

Lip

Maybe we can trade Carlos Lee for him now Lip

jortafan
03-20-2003, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by T Dog
About 40 years ago, before there was a baseball draft, Bobby Murcer took less money to sign with the Yankees. He figured that he would make up the difference in World Series money. I don't think he ever made it to the World Series.

Just to nitpick, Murcer was part of the Yankees "juggernaut" that managed to win the pennant in that mucked up year of 1981. It only took Murcer 16 seasons in the majors to make it to the World Series.

But I do understand the bigger point you are trying to make, and I agree with you completely.

34 Inch Stick
03-20-2003, 09:26 AM
When Rogers looks back on this season and finds himself with less money than could have had, less security than he could have had and on a second place team, do you think he will have some words for Scott BorAss.

Lip Man 1
03-20-2003, 10:37 AM
Rich:

I respect your point of view. You had your say, you don't need to keep beating it to death.

All I'm asking is that you remember what I discussed two years from now if the Sox are still looking for the promised land, minus Colon, Thomas AND Lee because they couldn't (or wouldn't) pay them.

I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts on THIS point since as of yet, I haven't.

I'm trying to win now, tomorrow never comes for the Sox because they'll find some other way to lose players, have bizarre things happen to them, screw up in the front office, or have injuries. That's simply the way it is. The future isn't promised to anybody even baseball teams with young stars or can't miss prospects.

Lip

Lip Man 1
03-20-2003, 10:40 AM
Question for 34 inch stick.

And if Rogers finds himself in the post season with the Twins what will he tell Boras?

I mean the Twins aren't exactly the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. They are a damn fine team. I'm not prepared to dismiss them so easily and I hope the Sox don't either.

Lip

RKMeibalane
03-20-2003, 10:56 AM
I'm not dismissing the Minnesota Twins. They are definitely capable of presenting a threat to the Sox chances of winning the division. However, I have the feeling that the Sox are better than the Twins think they are.

Minnesota continues to point out that their team has better clubhouse chemistry. So what? That chemistry will go "straight out the window" if the Twins struggle early in the season. Winning enhances team chemistry. Just look at the 2000 Sox if you need an example.

Minnesota also talks about how they have a better defensive team than the Sox. On this point, they are correct. However, I think the Twins may soon find that not having Ortiz's bat in the middle of their lineup will hurt them, especially against the Sox. Having a great defense helps, but it won't make much of a diference if the Twins are behind 10-0 by the fourth inning. The Sox will have upgraded their offense significantly if Thomas continues to produce as he has this spring. When Frank Thomas is on his game, he is the best hitter in baseball. Period. Minnesota's pitching staff will not help them if he is locked in.

The Twins will not be able to pitch around Frank, either. If they try that, Ordonez and Konerko will come up with men on base. That is not a pleasant sight if you're the opposition. We have seen what the trio of Thomas-Ordonez-Konerko can do when the offense is clicking. They worked well together in 2000. Now, imagine having that same trio producing, but also factor in that Maggio and Paul have both improved in the past three years.

The Sox have several questions about the lower end of their rotation, but Minnesota's pitching staff is an even bigger mess. Questions about the status of Joe Mays and Eric Milton are raised daily. If the Twins have another significant injury to their staff, they're in trouble.

34 Inch Stick
03-20-2003, 12:10 PM
Here is what the conversation should sound like Lip:

Rogers: How did we do this year Scotty

Boras: Well you made all of your incentives so you made 2.5 million. Then that first round playoff money made you another 50,000. So we are at about 2.55 million for the year

Rogers: And what about next year

Boras: I will begin shopping you around. A 39 year old junkballer with a 4.5 ERA ought to have a lot of suitors

Rogers: But weren't the Rangers offering 7.5 million more with next year guranteed?

Boras: Well, yes.

Rogers: And did those three playoff games put me anywhere closer to the Hall of Fame?

Boras: No

Rogers: So I chose to forego 7.5 million dollars at the end of my career so I could come out of the bullpen in an American Legue semifinal game

Boras: I guess you could say that

Rogers: :o: :?: :(: :whiner:

Same conversation happens if he joins the Sox except the loss is reduced. My point; unless Rogers is on a World Series team these last few years are meaningless. The money is paramount. He blew a great deal from the Rangers. He blew a better deal from the White Sox. Either he is stupid or he is getting bad advice. No matter how much you wanted him (and I did as well), I don't think you can debate that he made a series of very bad decisions.

RKMeibalane
03-20-2003, 12:13 PM
I don't know if Rogers would have signed with the Sox anyway, because of Boras. Besides, it's more important that the Sox find a way to win and develop their younger players at the same time. I want to see them win this year as much as anyone, but I would hate for this to be a one-and-done deal, where they spend the next five seasons struggling to finish above .500.

RichH55
03-20-2003, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Rich:

I respect your point of view. You had your say, you don't need to keep beating it to death.

All I'm asking is that you remember what I discussed two years from now if the Sox are still looking for the promised land, minus Colon, Thomas AND Lee because they couldn't (or wouldn't) pay them.

I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts on THIS point since as of yet, I haven't.

I'm trying to win now, tomorrow never comes for the Sox because they'll find some other way to lose players, have bizarre things happen to them, screw up in the front office, or have injuries. That's simply the way it is. The future isn't promised to anybody even baseball teams with young stars or can't miss prospects.

Lip

Nah, I will jump all over something like that. You didn't say we should trade Lee for Pitching. You named names. Helling. Daal. Terrible

Part of this is that I'm on the mindset that C. Lee will have a breakout year, which does more for us then having our 5th Starter spot secured(which is what I think Daal or Helling would be)

If we lose all of Colon, Thomas, and Lee that could be problems. I keep forgetting if Frank just needs one party not to sign off on next year or if the Sox want to keep him they can. I would say Colon is the most likely gone and C. Lee I can really see resigning.
That being said losing these 3 guys would be an issue, but as you see with the A's and keepign Giambi and Tejada to make a run at it, that is the way you make a run at it, not trading for the Hellings of the world.

If Colon is just here for this year, isn't that an example of trying to win now? He's a much better pitcher then you have us getting and we gave up alot less. His main cost is salary, which would put you and JR on the same page for once.

If we are going to deal C. Lee A.) It doesn't have to be this year B.) It needs to be for value(and I think dealing him in the offseason would net us more value) C.) Let's make sure Borchard can hit at Triple A, before we trade all are depth in the OF and long for the days when we had Mario Valenzula in the system.

A bad trade is a bad trade. Lee is still a viable part of this years success, its not like he is just a prospect, and what we get back is not good and doesnt make sense. Why not just sign these guys when they were FAs? Its not like you couldnt find a taker for C. Lee if you had too....Just a suggestion that makes no sense

ma-gaga
03-20-2003, 01:26 PM
1989 Texas Rangers $68,000
1990 Texas Rangers $140,000
1991 Texas Rangers $287,500
1992 Texas Rangers $620,000
1993 Texas Rangers $1,000,000
1994 Texas Rangers $2,300,000
1995 Texas Rangers $3,750,000
1996 New York Yankees $5,000,000
1997 New York Yankees $5,000,000
1998 Oakland Athletics $5,000,000
1999 Oakland Athletics $5,000,000
2000 Texas Rangers $7,500,000
2001 Texas Rangers $7,500,000
2002 Texas Rangers $7,500,000
------------------------------------------
2003 Minnesota Twins $2,000,000 + bonuses

It sure sounds like old Kenny is probably really hurting for the money. He admitted that he was probably too stubborn earlier this year and went to the team that called when he was ready to sign. The Twins got lucky, with his availability and his cost... I wouldn't look at it any deeper than that.

czalgosz
03-20-2003, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I keep forgetting if Frank just needs one party not to sign off on next year or if the Sox want to keep him they can

The option is mutual IIRC - both Frank and the Sox have to want it for 2004.

I wouldn't necessarily be against a Lee or Konerko trade (I'd actually prefer Konerko be traded - his trade value is probably higher, and I don't think he'll be as good over the long term as Lee) provided it brings in a quality starter. I wouldn't expect an All-Star, but at least someone who can keep his ERA below league average and provide quality starts with some consistency.

But that can wait - IMO, the Sox should wait and see where they are in June or July before pulling the trigger on any major trades.

maurice
03-20-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Let's make sure Borchard can hit at Triple A, before we trade all are depth in the OF and long for the days when we had Mario Valenzula in the system.

I agree with you on this issue, but (FYI) we still have Valenzuela in the system (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20030318&content_id=224200&vkey=spt2003news&fext=.jsp) .

T Dog
03-20-2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by jortafan
Just to nitpick, Murcer was part of the Yankees "juggernaut" that managed to win the pennant in that mucked up year of 1981. It only took Murcer 16 seasons in the majors to make it to the World Series.

But I do understand the bigger point you are trying to make, and I agree with you completely.

Good catch. I seem to have forgotten that they bothered to play the World Series in 1981. I also forgot that Bobby Murcer had any career after his time as a Yankees cast-off with the Cubs.

voodoochile
03-20-2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
The option is mutual IIRC - both Frank and the Sox have to want it for 2004.

I wouldn't necessarily be against a Lee or Konerko trade (I'd actually prefer Konerko be traded - his trade value is probably higher, and I don't think he'll be as good over the long term as Lee) provided it brings in a quality starter. I wouldn't expect an All-Star, but at least someone who can keep his ERA below league average and provide quality starts with some consistency.

But that can wait - IMO, the Sox should wait and see where they are in June or July before pulling the trigger on any major trades.

I thought both sides hold unilateral options. If the Sox exercise their option he gets $8M in 2004 while if Frank exercises his option, he gets only $6M in 2004.

czalgosz
03-20-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I thought both sides hold unilateral options. If the Sox exercise their option he gets $8M in 2004 while if Frank exercises his option, he gets only $6M in 2004.

Really? That's kind of strange...

voodoochile
03-20-2003, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Really? That's kind of strange...

:reinsy
"We prefer the term 'Creative'. I still don't understand why players and their reps don't like dealing with our creativity. It works well for my wallet... er... for the fans..."

34 Inch Stick
03-20-2003, 05:56 PM
Even if you are not hurting for money 7.5 million is a lot. You would be foolish to think he does not seriously miss that payday.

RichH55
03-20-2003, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I thought both sides hold unilateral options. If the Sox exercise their option he gets $8M in 2004 while if Frank exercises his option, he gets only $6M in 2004.

I hope its unilateral.,....that was what I remembered for some reason....either way I'd like Frank to retire here

RichH55
03-20-2003, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I agree with you on this issue, but (FYI) we still have Valenzuela in the system (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20030318&content_id=224200&vkey=spt2003news&fext=.jsp) .

Well that's fun:) Doesn't change my point, but I like saying Mario's name so at least he adds something there.

hold2dibber
03-20-2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I hope its unilateral.,....that was what I remembered for some reason....either way I'd like Frank to retire here

It is unilateral. Frank first has to decide whether or not to exercise at $6 million. If he declines to do so, the option then goes to the Sox at $8 million. Talk about a chess game; it really puts the pressure on Frank. If he has a huge season, does he take the chance that the Sox will re-up him at $8 million? If so and the Sox decline, he's at the mercy of a depressed free agent market as a 36 year old who can't really play the field. If he exercises it, he gets his $6 million and is guaranteed $ for '05 as well (via another "dual unitlateral option"). I don't understand why he keeps agreeing to these goofy contracts. If I were him, I would have stuck with my guaranteed $40 million under the old contract, even if much of it was going to be deferred.

voodoochile
03-20-2003, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
It is unilateral. Frank first has to decide whether or not to exercise at $6 million. If he declines to do so, the option then goes to the Sox at $8 million. Talk about a chess game; it really puts the pressure on Frank. If he has a huge season, does he take the chance that the Sox will re-up him at $8 million? If so and the Sox decline, he's at the mercy of a depressed free agent market as a 36 year old who can't really play the field. If he exercises it, he gets his $6 million and is guaranteed $ for '05 as well (via another "dual unitlateral option"). I don't understand why he keeps agreeing to these goofy contracts. If I were him, I would have stuck with my guaranteed $40 million under the old contract, even if much of it was going to be deferred.

I think the up front money may have been a bigger concern for him and $23M minimum guaranteed over the next few years is probably worth more than the $40M deferred.

I wonder if it will actually get to the point of Frank having to make a guess as to whether the team will do right by him after a big year. I hope not. I hope the Sox come through and tell him they will pick up the next option immediately - or offer him a new guaranteed contract that takes out all the guess work for both sides.

If Frank has a monster year and then gambles and the Sox let him go anyway, then they would never see another penny of my money until Reinsy sells or dies...

czalgosz
03-20-2003, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I think the up front money may have been a bigger concern for him and $23M minimum guaranteed over the next few years is probably worth more than the $40M deferred.

I wonder if it will actually get to the point of Frank having to make a guess as to whether the team will do right by him after a big year. I hope not. I hope the Sox come through and tell him they will pick up the next option immediately - or offer him a new guaranteed contract that takes out all the guess work for both sides.

If Frank has a monster year and then gambles and the Sox let him go anyway, then they would never see another penny of my money until Reinsy sells or dies...

If Frank has a "vintage Frank" year in 2003, the Sox would be insane to not pick up the option for 2004. He would be cheap at that price, especially seeing as how Frank having a "vintage Frank" year would probably propel them into the playoffs.

JUGGERNAUT
03-20-2003, 08:12 PM
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/021207/6/qp8s.html

He gets $5 million in 2003. He can then exercise options for $6 million in 2004, $8 million in 2005 and $10 million in 2006, a year that has a $3.5 million club buyout attached to it.

If Thomas declines his options, Chicago has options at $8 million in 2004, $11 million in 2005 and $12 million in 2006.

Thomas also gets the right to void the deal after the 2003 season, and Chicago is loaning him $1 million.

In addition, he gets bonuses of up to $2 million for finishing in the top 10 of MVP voting.

34 Inch Stick
03-21-2003, 08:51 AM
Under those constraints he would be a fool not to exercise his option for next year, no matter what type of year he has. He may be a little short in year one but no one is paying a 38 year old DH 8 million in year 2 or a 39 year old 10 million in year 3. Looking on this I think the Sox gave him the ability to spend his entire career with the team. Hopefully he will get every consideration that Harold did at the end of his time.