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duke of dorwood
03-18-2003, 09:52 AM
From Baltimore Sun:

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. - Less than two weeks before Opening Day, trade noises are echoing throughout Major League Baseball, but if the Orioles make a move, it figures to be more of a whisper than a shout.

Ken Griffey or Carlos Beltran? No chance.

"A sure-fire productive player is going to be very tough to come by," Orioles executive vice president Jim Beattie said yesterday.

After striking out in their efforts to sign a major run-producer on the free-agent market, the Orioles entered spring training at least somewhat hopeful they could accomplish this longtime goal through a trade.

The Orioles called about Griffey, but the Cincinnati Reds said he's no longer available. The Kansas City Royals are still looking to move Beltran, but they're asking for things the Orioles simply don't have.

Most baseball executives expect to see some movement on the trade front between now and the March 29 deadline for teams to set their Opening Day rosters. Once this window closes, teams figure to stand pat for a while again.

"We still have efforts out there to improve the club," Beattie said, speaking only in general terms. "But if you rely on a trade [to fill a need], you cannot necessarily say it's going to be a done deal. And even if we get a player, there are going to be some people who say, 'That's not good enough.'

"If they're looking for one of those premier guys, those are guys you can't get."

Last week, in the first trade of the Beattie and Mike Flanagan era, the Orioles moved oft-injured outfielder Chris Richard to the Colorado Rockies for power-hitting prospect Jack Cust. That deal might help the Orioles down the road, but it doesn't figure to have much effect this year.

In their latest player evaluation meeting, at least two Orioles coaches had Cust on their projected Opening Day roster, but the prevailing wisdom is he'll go to Triple-A Ottawa for continued seasoning.

What's next?

"The player we've always looked at," Beattie said, "is someone who has some upside, who might have even struggled last year. Take a little bit of a chance maybe in having a player return to form. Maybe he's in the last year of his contract."

The Orioles asked the Chicago White Sox about outfielder Carlos Lee, whose average over the past three years has dropped from .301 to .269 to .264.

Those talks went nowhere.

hold2dibber
03-18-2003, 10:25 AM
I don't think the Orioles have what the Sox need (a solid starting pitcher or a left-handed power bat) - I can't see a match (if KW were to trade CLee for Sidney Ponson, for example, he'd have a revolt on his hands).

maurice
03-18-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I don't think the Orioles have what the Sox need (a solid starting pitcher or a left-handed power bat) - I can't see a match (if KW were to trade CLee for Sidney Ponson, for example, he'd have a revolt on his hands).

What about Jay Gibbons? He's a young outfielder with good power from the left side (but needs to improve his plate disclipline). Besides, it's a heck of a lot of fun when he's in right field and we chant, "Robin . . . Robin."

:)

I'm not sure the Sox are looking to add a left-handed bat, anyway. They have Daubauch for the short term and Borchard for the long term, though they would need to move Lee or Konerko if they want to free up a spot this year. I'm not sure you can get top value for Lee right now, though Konerko's probably at his peak value.

hold2dibber
03-18-2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by maurice
What about Jay Gibbons? He's a young outfielder with good power from the left side (but needs to improve his plate disclipline). Besides, it's a heck of a lot of fun when he's in right field and we chant, "Robin . . . Robin."

:)

I'm not sure the Sox are looking to add a left-handed bat, anyway. They have Daubauch for the short term and Borchard for the long term, though they would need to move Lee or Konerko if they want to free up a spot this year. I'm not sure you can get top value for Lee right now, though Konerko's probably at his peak value.

Gibbons is okay, but there's no way I'd deal CLee for him straight up. I still think the Sox could use a left handed bat in the line-up; Borchard isn't ready and Daubach doesn't have a spot. I could see the Sox dealing CLee for pitching help and giving left field to Daubach. I just don't know what kind of starting pitcher the Sox could get for Lee.

RichH55
03-18-2003, 06:12 PM
The O's have next to nothing....people just throwing out things because they have nothing...Like the Mags for Griffey rumors....Much ado about nothing

WhiteSox = Life
03-18-2003, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
The O's have next to nothing....people just throwing out things because they have nothing...Like the Mags for Griffey rumors....Much ado about nothing

Well, with a White Sox loss today (March 18, 2003) and the regular season still 13 days away, gotta discuss something.

:smile:

czalgosz
03-18-2003, 06:45 PM
I find it interesting that they think that Lee's production is slipping, and that might put him in the Orioles' price range. For one thing, his production isn't slipping (his 2002 season was in many ways the best of his career) and for another, I even if it was, there's still noone in their system worth trading for. Heck, I wouldn't want a lot of those guys for free.

Lip Man 1
03-18-2003, 09:08 PM
I'd consider Lee for Daal or Helling... after all the Sox have Daubach.

Lip

TornLabrum
03-18-2003, 09:10 PM
I think the reality of the situation, though, is that Prof. Chaos loves Carlos Lee. He isn't going to be traded for anyone anytime soon.

MarkEdward
03-18-2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I'd consider Lee for Daal or Helling... after all the Sox have Daubach.

Lip

You'd give up a 26 year old left fielder who has a good chance of posting an OPS over .900 for pitchers who stand a good chance of posting ERAs over 5.00?

I'd be willing to bet that, by the end of the year, Loazia and Rauch will each have better major league seasons than Daal and Helling.

duke of dorwood
03-18-2003, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I think the reality of the situation, though, is that Prof. Chaos loves Carlos Lee. He isn't going to be traded for anyone anytime soon.

This is true. The sad thing is he loves Willie Harris too, and he's been a bust this Spring.

RichH55
03-18-2003, 10:23 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I'd consider Lee for Daal or Helling... after all the Sox have Daubach.

Lip [/QUote


Just terrible Lip.......I hope you meant to post this in teal

Lip Man 1
03-18-2003, 11:34 PM
Folks:

I'm sorry but to me pitching wins pennants and the Sox are still far short in that category.

Lee (like most Sox kids) has trmendous potential which he hasn't found yet. He's a "butcher" in left field (in the words of MLB's audio preview of the A.L. Central Division), and a not so smart baserunner.

Plus and this is important, Lee goes to arbitration next year and is a free agent in (I think) two years.

Do you think the Sox are going to pay him 7-9 million a season?

get something for him now that you really need.

Mark if you'll define your terms about "a better season" you'll have yourself a wager. Rauch won't even BE on the Sox until September (at best) unless someone gets hurt. Also perhaps you read this in this week's issue of The Sporting News..." Helling is a time tested commodity who has NEVER had a serious arm injury. He has averaged 33 starts, 14 wins and 209 innings pitched in the past five seasons. He had fifteen starts last season where he gave up three or fewer runs..."

Sounds just a wee bit better then Garland, Wright or Rauch don't you think?

Since the Sox are going to lose Colon next year, the time to take the shot, in my opinion, is RIGHT NOW. Tomorrow never comes for the Sox.

Just my thoughts.

Lip

WinningUgly!
03-19-2003, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I'd consider Lee for Daal or Helling... after all the Sox have Daubach.

Lip

They were both available a few months ago, as free agents. If Kenny Williams were to trade Carlos Lee for either of them now, I'd be kicking his teeth down his throat. :D:

RichH55
03-19-2003, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
They were both available a few months ago, as free agents. If Kenny Williams were to trade Carlos Lee for either of them now, I'd be kicking his teeth down his throat. :D:

And thats usually the thing Lip would harp about as well....I guess since KW isnt doing it then Lip is for it

RichH55
03-19-2003, 01:10 AM
Lip look up things like getting "Fair Value" for players, especially young guys. You can cripple a team dealing for pourous veterans. I mean you are suggesting we give up the Jeff Bagwell of the deal and we aren't even getting a Doyle Alexander.

Your main point on Helling seems to be that he isn't hurt? Does he want a cookie? I seem to remember someone name Jamie Navarro having some healthy years, I still don't want him pitching here. Health alone is a poor poor reason to trade for a player.

C Lee isnt like the pitching prospects you love to harp about. He has shown more than flashes. He has Superstar potential, but even if he doesnt reach that he has shown he is a good everyday ballplayer. And for the 8,000 time would someone explain to me why we need a gold glover in Left fickin' Field? Or who the best 4 defensive LF are today? It is probably the least important position defensively, not counting DH and debatable with pitcher.

Helling and Daal?!?!?!? Truly awful Lip. Advocating dealing Lee and advocating a full frontal organizational labotomy are two different things. The Lawrence rumor that is false is something you look at, it probably makes little sense for the Padres since they just resigned the guy and he is their Ace, but at least it warrants consideration. Those two guys you just wanted are essentially trash heap FAs and definately not sure things. Simply terrible....I can not stress that enough


Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

I'm sorry but to me pitching wins pennants and the Sox are still far short in that category.

Lee (like most Sox kids) has trmendous potential which he hasn't found yet. He's a "butcher" in left field (in the words of MLB's audio preview of the A.L. Central Division), and a not so smart baserunner.

Plus and this is important, Lee goes to arbitration next year and is a free agent in (I think) two years.

Do you think the Sox are going to pay him 7-9 million a season?

get something for him now that you really need.

Mark if you'll define your terms about "a better season" you'll have yourself a wager. Rauch won't even BE on the Sox until September (at best) unless someone gets hurt. Also perhaps you read this in this week's issue of The Sporting News..." Helling is a time tested commodity who has NEVER had a serious arm injury. He has averaged 33 starts, 14 wins and 209 innings pitched in the past five seasons. He had fifteen starts last season where he gave up three or fewer runs..."

Sounds just a wee bit better then Garland, Wright or Rauch don't you think?

Since the Sox are going to lose Colon next year, the time to take the shot, in my opinion, is RIGHT NOW. Tomorrow never comes for the Sox.

Just my thoughts.

Lip

hold2dibber
03-19-2003, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

I'm sorry but to me pitching wins pennants and the Sox are still far short in that category.

Lee (like most Sox kids) has trmendous potential which he hasn't found yet. He's a "butcher" in left field (in the words of MLB's audio preview of the A.L. Central Division), and a not so smart baserunner.

Plus and this is important, Lee goes to arbitration next year and is a free agent in (I think) two years.

Do you think the Sox are going to pay him 7-9 million a season?

get something for him now that you really need.

Mark if you'll define your terms about "a better season" you'll have yourself a wager. Rauch won't even BE on the Sox until September (at best) unless someone gets hurt. Also perhaps you read this in this week's issue of The Sporting News..." Helling is a time tested commodity who has NEVER had a serious arm injury. He has averaged 33 starts, 14 wins and 209 innings pitched in the past five seasons. He had fifteen starts last season where he gave up three or fewer runs..."

Sounds just a wee bit better then Garland, Wright or Rauch don't you think?

Since the Sox are going to lose Colon next year, the time to take the shot, in my opinion, is RIGHT NOW. Tomorrow never comes for the Sox.

Just my thoughts.

Lip

I generally agree with your sentiments here, Lip, but totally disagree with your assessment of the value of Daal and Helling. I would have been glad to pick up either of those guys as free agents. However, I think it would be absolutely insane to trade CLee for either of those guys straight up. Neither is very good, Helling isn't that young and I believe that CLee could garner someone much more valuable than either of those two.

But I do think it makes sense to consider dealing Carlos for pitching. Daubach is a more than adequate replacement in LF and would give the Sox a sorely needed left handed bat in the everyday lineup. Daubach makes Lee expendable. Or, alternatively, he makes Konerko expendable. But I think Konerko would be harder to trade because of his contract and I think the public would be more mad to see PK go than to see Carlos go. I'd do that suggested Padres trade in a heartbeat. But if not Brian Lawrence, I'm thinking that there has to be other decent starting pitching available from a team in need for offense. Of course, if the Sox are intent on re-signing Colon, then I would be less likely to deal CLee for pitching. But I don't see that as being the case.

Lip Man 1
03-19-2003, 10:55 AM
Folks:

There's no point arguing about this since nothing is going to happen anyway.

You do need to keep in mind though my main points which were that the Sox STILL (in my opinion) need pitching, the Sox are going to lose Colon after this season (how will they replace him and still try to contend?) and how are the Sox going to afford to pay a one dimensional player like Lee when arbitration and free agency comes up.

The Sox could be looking at the same situation which is facing the Royals right now with Beltran. The Sporting News this week had a long story by Ken Rosenthal basically saying the Royals won't get squat for him because they waited to long before trying to move him.

If Colon leaving (and Rauch's inability to step up) next year is going to force another "rebuilding" or move the Sox back down towards mediocrity why not take your chances THIS season especially since the odds are pretty good lee won't be around in a few years.

Like I say nothing's going to happen anyway.

Lip

maurice
03-19-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
pitching wins pennants

No, consistently good pitching wins pennants.

Daal has been extremely inconsistent over his career. There's no way of knowing whether you would get good Daal or bad Daal (kinda like a more expensive and older version of an untested prospect).

Helling is simply a bad pitcher. His 4.72 career ERA is worse than Todd Ritchie's and far worse than the major league average ERA (about 4.30 in 2002).

There's no reason to believe that either of these guys would be any better than the low-paid guys the Sox already have. In fact, there's a real good chance that they'll both be much worse. In any event, both of these guys put together are not worth one Carlos Lee. I'm not opposed to trading Lee for pitching, but you'd have to do better than that.

I'm also not convinced that nothing is going to happen. I think KW is willing to move Lee for pitching if the right deal comes along. His willingness will only increase if Borchard performs well in AAA, and Crash performs adequately in CF. We'll have to wait until the trade deadline to find out for certain.

Foulke You
03-19-2003, 12:00 PM
Kind've switching gears to the CLee side of the fence, I'd hesitate to trade Carlos right now when he appears to be on the verge of a breakout year. Has anyone noticed how much weight he has dropped? He is in the best shape that I've ever seen him in since they brought him up. According to Farmer he has been putting in extra time in practicing his defense in LF with the coaches. He already made a nice play in the game against the Brewers last weekend and hit a grand slam. I'd hate to see him have a .300 35HR 120RBI season somewhere else regardless of his right handed bat. Carlos is a big part of that explosive offense we're counting on to win the AL Central.