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jeremyb1
03-14-2003, 12:46 AM
rauch expressed a lot of frustration about his struggles in the spring thus far on the official page. http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20030313&content_id=219564&vkey=spt2003news&fext=.jsp

ďIím not throwing strikes, thatís what it means,Ē Rauch said. ďIf you donít throw strikes, you wonít win ball games and you wonít succeed. Right now, Iím trying to get back to that and figure out what Iím doing wrong.Ē
Rauch was equally flustered when asked if any pitch in particular was giving him trouble.
ďAll of them are giving me trouble,Ē Rauch said. ďThe fastball is my bread-and-butter pitch to get ahead of guys and I canít throw it for strikes.

the fact that rauch is struggling so much with his control makes me think he simply has mechanical problems as opposed to an injury. any velocity and movement he's lacking could easily be attributed to struggles with his mechanics. also, as far as i know arm troubles shouldn't in any way affect a pitchers control.

Huisj
03-14-2003, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
rauch expressed a lot of frustration about his struggles in the spring thus far on the official page. http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20030313&content_id=219564&vkey=spt2003news&fext=.jsp



the fact that rauch is struggling so much with his control makes me think he simply has mechanical problems as opposed to an injury. any velocity and movement he's lacking could easily be attributed to struggles with his mechanics. also, as far as i know arm troubles shouldn't in any way affect a pitchers control.

i don't know if this holds for guys who have been pitching for many many more years than i had been, but when i was a junior in high school, i had some tendinitis problems in my shoulder and it screwed my control up bigtime. it was real weird, i could still throw hard, but my control was shot for that year, and then my senior year my arm was fine and i had control again.

but then again, that might not be a similiar situation, because part of my control problems probably were mechanical just because i was growing like a mad man at that time too--i grew probably 3 inches during the school year that year, so it probably was throwing my mechanics out of wack. . . so anyway, that was a senseless couple paragraphs of rambling . . . oh but it makes me want to play again so badly!!! oh how i miss playing baseball!!

jeremyb1
03-14-2003, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by Huisj
i don't know if this holds for guys who have been pitching for many many more years than i had been, but when i was a junior in high school, i had some tendinitis problems in my shoulder and it screwed my control up bigtime. it was real weird, i could still throw hard, but my control was shot for that year, and then my senior year my arm was fine and i had control again.

but then again, that might not be a similiar situation, because part of my control problems probably were mechanical just because i was growing like a mad man at that time too--i grew probably 3 inches during the school year that year, so it probably was throwing my mechanics out of wack. . . so anyway, that was a senseless couple paragraphs of rambling . . . oh but it makes me want to play again so badly!!! oh how i miss playing baseball!!

yeah i mean it definately seems possible that pitching in pain could alter one's mechanics. i certainly don't profess to be an expert on the subject but in my experience when talking about arm injuries one ussually talks about a pitchers velocity, then the life on his pitches before talking about control.

kermittheefrog
03-14-2003, 05:00 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
rauch expressed a lot of frustration about his struggles in the spring thus far on the official page. http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20030313&content_id=219564&vkey=spt2003news&fext=.jsp



the fact that rauch is struggling so much with his control makes me think he simply has mechanical problems as opposed to an injury. any velocity and movement he's lacking could easily be attributed to struggles with his mechanics. also, as far as i know arm troubles shouldn't in any way affect a pitchers control.

I know it takes a while after Tommy John surgery for pitchers to get their command back. What I've read says at least in that case pitchers get velocity back before command. After a major surgery a body part is going to feel a little different and perform differently and you have to adjust and rehab to get back to normal. Also loss of control can imply he's adjusting his mechanics to compensate for some sort of pain. There are a lot of variables there. Loss of command sure doesn't imply Rauch is healthy, I'll say that much.

Even if Rauch is just having mechanical problems these don't seem like "just adjust this and you're fine" problems. It's a long road back from shoulder surgery even if you are healthy. I remember a comment in an interview with one of the more famous baseball surgeons, either Frank Jobe or James Andrews. He said that it's not really as big an issue to get the body part back to full health as it is to return to the players' previous level of competition.

Just think about what Rauch goes after surgery. He falls out of the habit of pitching competitively and loses the feel he has for what he's doing right and wrong. He falls out of the habit of throwing regularly for a while. He loses development time when he should be working with coaches on improving. Then once he gets healthy he has to spend time getting back to where he was before he can really take steps further. I'd love to see Rauch healthy and ready to dominate but it's hard to see it.

hold2dibber
03-14-2003, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Just think about what Rauch goes after surgery. He falls out of the habit of pitching competitively and loses the feel he has for what he's doing right and wrong. He falls out of the habit of throwing regularly for a while. He loses development time when he should be working with coaches on improving. Then once he gets healthy he has to spend time getting back to where he was before he can really take steps further. I'd love to see Rauch healthy and ready to dominate but it's hard to see it.

But he had all of last year to get back into the groove, and he was absolutely lights out in those last two starts against Minnesota in September. I'm worried about his health. And that makes me worry about the rotation as a whole, particularly with Wright hurting. If Wright can't go (which, I admit, is a big "if" at this point), the Sox will desparately need to have Rauch, Heredia or Stewart step up (or consider Glover as a stop-gap for the last rotation spot). OTOH, Chuck Finley is still available (but would cost a draft pick, I believe).

Mammoo
03-14-2003, 09:30 AM
Don Cooper is supposedly a master communicator, especially with these young guys who came up through the organization.

Let's see if he can get Rauch straightened out.

Lip Man 1
03-14-2003, 01:50 PM
With respect and I'm not trying to insult anyone, that's why I found it so hard to believe that Jon Rauch was going to be the Sox "savior" this season.

I think some fans were hoping a little to much that his ability and potential could overcome any health issues. Sox management did the same thing after all the pitchers got hurt in the second half of 2000. They hoped things would work out in 2001 and unfortunately it didn't.

That's why I was such a strong advocate of picking up one of two more veteran guys (on the cheap) like a Jeff Suppan who signed for one million with Pittsburgh.

We'll see how this plays out but I don't think Rauch is going to make much of a contribution this season.

Lip

kermittheefrog
03-14-2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
With respect and I'm not trying to insult anyone, that's why I found it so hard to believe that Jon Rauch was going to be the Sox "savior" this season.

I think some fans were hoping a little to much that his ability and potential could overcome any health issues. Sox management did the same thing after all the pitchers got hurt in the second half of 2000. They hoped things would work out in 2001 and unfortunately it didn't.

That's why I was such a strong advocate of picking up one of two more veteran guys (on the cheap) like a Jeff Suppan who signed for one million with Pittsburgh.

We'll see how this plays out but I don't think Rauch is going to make much of a contribution this season.

Lip

I think it's funny when Lip and I agree on something.

Unfortunately there really isn't another Jeff Suppan out there but man would he have been a good deal for one million. Chuck Finley is still there and he's better than Rogers. I think someone should give Jared Fernandez a shot in a major league rotation. He's a knuckle baller who has been pitching for Cincinati.

maurice
03-14-2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
With respect and I'm not trying to insult anyone, that's why I found it so hard to believe that Jon Rauch was going to be the Sox "savior" this season. I think some fans were hoping a little to [sic] much that his ability and potential could overcome any health issues.

I don't think anyone expects (or expected) Rauch to be Mark "Jesus" Prior. He's only being asked to serve as an above-average #5 starter in 2003. Anything more than that would be frosting. The jury is still out on his shoulder (and Wright's elbow), but it doesn't seem like the Sox share the concerns expressed here (or at least not to the same degree).

jeremyb1
03-14-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I know it takes a while after Tommy John surgery for pitchers to get their command back. What I've read says at least in that case pitchers get velocity back before command. After a major surgery a body part is going to feel a little different and perform differently and you have to adjust and rehab to get back to normal. Also loss of control can imply he's adjusting his mechanics to compensate for some sort of pain. There are a lot of variables there. Loss of command sure doesn't imply Rauch is healthy, I'll say that much.

Even if Rauch is just having mechanical problems these don't seem like "just adjust this and you're fine" problems. It's a long road back from shoulder surgery even if you are healthy. I remember a comment in an interview with one of the more famous baseball surgeons, either Frank Jobe or James Andrews. He said that it's not really as big an issue to get the body part back to full health as it is to return to the players' previous level of competition.

Just think about what Rauch goes after surgery. He falls out of the habit of pitching competitively and loses the feel he has for what he's doing right and wrong. He falls out of the habit of throwing regularly for a while. He loses development time when he should be working with coaches on improving. Then once he gets healthy he has to spend time getting back to where he was before he can really take steps further. I'd love to see Rauch healthy and ready to dominate but it's hard to see it.

maybe it seems difficult to see him "healthy and ready to dominate" now because he's struggling but he was just that at the end of last season. you could argue two starts against minnesota are a small sample which is true but its important to note his improvement at AAA over the course of the season. his last 6 or 8 games at AAA he was lights out.

like i've said, i don't possess a large body of knowledge on pitching and injuries. however, it seems counterintuitive to me that a pitcher's velocity and the life on his pitches would improve only to suffer again the next spring unless of course he's sustained another injury. i'd love for someone like carrol who knows about these issues to make the argument that rauch is reinjured or explain how its possible for his health to have taken such a dramatic step backward.

the one thing i resent about this conversation is that every time we have it i feel as though we talk as though last year never happened. rauch had surgery performed over two years ago. i refuse his performance last season has next to no bearing on this season.

dllrbll7
03-14-2003, 02:11 PM
It will make me feel alot better about Rauch not playing up to his potetial or hype whatever you wanna call it when Prior gets injured and falls flat on his face.

pudge
03-14-2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I don't think anyone expects (or expected) Rauch to be Mark "Jesus" Prior. He's only being asked to serve as an above-average #5 starter in 2003. Anything more than that would be frosting. The jury is still out on his shoulder (and Wright's elbow), but it doesn't seem like the Sox share the concerns expressed here (or at least not to the same degree).

The problem is, you had people on this site claiming Rauch would be the #3 by the end of the season, which was a friggin' joke.

czalgosz
03-14-2003, 02:15 PM
If Rauch isn't ready to take a rotation spot now, the Sox should trade him. How much time does the guy need? I'm normally a guy who supports using young cheap guys over expensive fading veterans, but I think the Sox have been more than patient with Rauch.

And if he's no good, where does his outstanding end to the 2002 season come from?

maurice
03-14-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by pudge
The problem is, you had people on this site claiming Rauch would be the #3 by the end of the season, which was a friggin' joke.

More like a pipe dream. :cool:

Barring a new and unexpected injury, the Sox top 3 is set this year. The only question marks in the starting rotaton at this point are Wright's elbow and Rauch's shoulder. The Sox seem to think that both will be fine.

I'm much more concerned about fielding, base running, and whether Hurt will hit this year.

kermittheefrog
03-14-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
the one thing i resent about this conversation is that every time we have it i feel as though we talk as though last year never happened. rauch had surgery performed over two years ago. i refuse his performance last season has next to no bearing on this season.

It's a good question, probably something I should have already asked myself. I'll see if I can get some sort of answer for this one.

Dadawg_77
03-14-2003, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
If Rauch isn't ready to take a rotation spot now, the Sox should trade him. How much time does the guy need? I'm normally a guy who supports using young cheap guys over expensive fading veterans, but I think the Sox have been more than patient with Rauch.

And if he's no good, where does his outstanding end to the 2002 season come from?


no no no. First off, you can't give up on pitchers this young. Pitching in the majors can come quick or take some time. Esp with the injuries factor. Second, Jon value has droped to a level where you wouldn't give much to offset the loss in upside.

fsphog
03-14-2003, 07:18 PM
basically rauch has competed in two and a half seasons. he was lucky enough to get a full year in last year, epsecially after the extent of his injury (torn labrum, torn rotator cuff, completely torn bicept tendon, thermal shrinkage of the joint and a type 2 achromium hook). normally it would take the average joe 18-24 months to recover, and rauch was back pitching in 10. and who here remembers how baldwin did in the season after his surgery? rauch has a very good upside, it just sounds like he needs to regain confidence in himself. more than likely his problems are mechanical, otherwise you probably would have heard something about him being hurt in the media.

baggio202
03-14-2003, 08:15 PM
i thibnk what rauch is experiencing is what happens tov alot of pitcher after shoulder surgery....think back to bobby howry...he would go through stretches throwing 95 on the corners and we were all like , okay , bobby is back...then for some unknown reason he would all of a sudden lose it and be lucky to hit 90 on the gun..

ive had major surgery on my neck and shoulder which has effected the strength in my left arm...ive must have now seen 10 different theories from 10 different doctors who vary from gp's to nuerosurgeons...one thing ive learned...as advanced as these types of surgeries have come there are still alot of things these surgeons dont know and cant explain about what they do..even the great frank jobe....youre cutting into nerve ending , mucsles , tendons and whatever else and no one can really know how any individual will respond and how long , if ever it will take for a full recovery..no matter how minor the surgery may be considered...

look at antonio osuna..he has been cut open 3 different time now and each time he comes 100% almost immediately..then you have my example of bob howry who only has had one surgery , a pretty minor one at that, and he struggled more trying to come back than osuna ever did...who can explain that??

i think after this season we will know what we got with rauch.. it will be almost 3 years since his surgery..if he hasnt fully recovered by then i doubt he ever will..just hope and pray for the best for jon

jeremyb1
03-15-2003, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by baggio202
i thibnk what rauch is experiencing is what happens tov alot of pitcher after shoulder surgery....think back to bobby howry...he would go through stretches throwing 95 on the corners and we were all like , okay , bobby is back...then for some unknown reason he would all of a sudden lose it and be lucky to hit 90 on the gun..

ive had major surgery on my neck and shoulder which has effected the strength in my left arm...ive must have now seen 10 different theories from 10 different doctors who vary from gp's to nuerosurgeons...one thing ive learned...as advanced as these types of surgeries have come there are still alot of things these surgeons dont know and cant explain about what they do..even the great frank jobe....youre cutting into nerve ending , mucsles , tendons and whatever else and no one can really know how any individual will respond and how long , if ever it will take for a full recovery..no matter how minor the surgery may be considered...

look at antonio osuna..he has been cut open 3 different time now and each time he comes 100% almost immediately..then you have my example of bob howry who only has had one surgery , a pretty minor one at that, and he struggled more trying to come back than osuna ever did...who can explain that??

i think after this season we will know what we got with rauch.. it will be almost 3 years since his surgery..if he hasnt fully recovered by then i doubt he ever will..just hope and pray for the best for jon

those are some good points baggs. hopefully the closest parallel between howry and rauch will be that while it was expcted that howry was struggling due to his surgery, it in fact turn out that it was only an issue of mechanics that had caused his struggles.

Bmr31
03-15-2003, 03:49 AM
Rauch is done. Book it.

progers0826
03-16-2003, 02:35 PM
For what it's worth, Jared Fernandez is in camp with Houston. He started in the mix for the No. 5 starter's job, behing Redding and alongside Jeriome Robertson, but it looks like Robertson will win that job.

kermittheefrog
03-16-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by progers0826
For what it's worth, Jared Fernandez is in camp with Houston. He started in the mix for the No. 5 starter's job, behing Redding and alongside Jeriome Robertson, but it looks like Robertson will win that job.

I've heard this and thats why I think he'd be somewhat readily available. I like the idea of havng a guy who can throw a ton of innings.

Back to the subject of Rauch:

I emailed Will Carroll who basically said right now he doesn't know whether Rauch is still experiencing medical difficulties or if his mechanics are just off. Time will tell.

Mammoo
03-16-2003, 02:59 PM
It takes a while for these guys to mature physically and emotionally. On top of that, they are learning their craft against the best in their profession.

It's taken a while for Jon Garland and we're still not sure about him. I don't think Ken Williams is convinced, otherwise he wouldn't have brought in Loaiza.

"The way he (Loaiza) threw today was exciting," Sox manager Jerry Manuel said. "It would be tough not to take him. And it gives us a chance to take our time with Danny Wright."

So if Wright comes back, Rauch can go down, mature and decide if he wants to be a major leaguer or a career has been.