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MJL_Sox_Fan
03-12-2003, 11:24 PM
ESPN just reported that Kenny signed with the Twinkies for 1 year. I did not hear the other terms. But this makes me a little more worried about our chances. Although I must admit that in a perverse sense I am happy because it should make our impending run for the central crown more interesting.

TimChamp
03-13-2003, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by MJL_Sox_Fan
ESPN just reported that Kenny signed with the Twinkies for 1 year. I did not hear the other terms. But this makes me a little more worried about our chances. Although I must admit that in a perverse sense I am happy because it should make our impending run for the central crown more interesting.

You might want to check this thread:

Kenny Rogers to the Twins? (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17838&perpage=15&display=&pagenumber=2)


Just to let you know, supposedly it was a $2 million dollar deal with $500 K in incentives...


Champ out...

moochpuppy
03-13-2003, 07:25 AM
Originally posted by MJL_Sox_Fan
ESPN just reported that Kenny signed with the Twinkies for 1 year. I did not hear the other terms. But this makes me a little more worried about our chances. Although I must admit that in a perverse sense I am happy because it should make our impending run for the central crown more interesting.

I don't know.....I think it all depends what you think the better rotation is:

Option #1:
Radke
Milton
Mays
Reed
Lohse

Option #2:
Radke
Mays
Reed
Santana
Lohse

Option #3
Radke
Mays
Rogers
Reed
Lohse

I'd prefer option #2. The Twins could have saved that $2 million for a deadline trade. This team will need some right-handed power more than it needs another starter.

ma-gaga
03-13-2003, 08:41 AM
What this really tells me, is that someone in the Twins management isn't very comfortable with Joe Mays shoulder/elbow surgery. He was reportedly having problems with it earlier this spring. Here's how I see Minnesota's mid-season rotation looking like:

B.Radke
K.Rogers
R.Reed
J.Santana
K.Lohse

You have to split the righties/lefties as best as possible. You put the Veteran in the #2 spot and Santana to #4. I DON'T f'ing trust Joe Mays' elbow. If Radke goes down again, they are in serious trouble...

fhqwhgads
03-13-2003, 08:43 AM
I'd prefer option #2. The Twins could have saved that $2 million for a deadline trade. This team will need some right-handed power more than it needs another starter.

To me, this is a sign that Ryan/Pohlad have decided that this is the year to pony up for a run at the big dance. If they need a bat later in the year, they'll loosen the purse strings for it.

That said, this acquisition was a great deal for the money, and it filled an immediate need. It also allowed the Twins to keep a bullpen that is among the elite in baseball. Santatna is still there as a starter if we need him, but I love having him in the bullpen.

GO TWINS!

Hangar18
03-13-2003, 09:07 AM
Hey...Feriewingsgs, where would the Twinkies be had they Drafted Mark Prior like they shouldve ????? that foolish move I said was going to HAUNT them for years to come...and Its ALREADY happening, heh heh

doublem23
03-13-2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Hey...Feriewingsgs, where would the Twinkies be had they Drafted Mark Prior like they shouldve ????? that foolish move I said was going to HAUNT them for years to come...and Its ALREADY happening, heh heh

Well, like was said, they did get a pretty fine catching prospect out of it.... And arguably catchers are more important than pitchers.

maurice
03-13-2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
And arguably catchers are more important than pitchers.

Hmmm . . . interesting argument. Which catcher would you take straight up for Buehrle?

moochpuppy
03-13-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by maurice
Hmmm . . . interesting argument. Which catcher would you take straight up for Buehrle?

Well, since the Cardinals don't have a decent catcher................. :D:

fhqwhgads
03-13-2003, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Hey...Feriewingsgs, where would the Twinkies be had they Drafted Mark Prior like they shouldve ????? that foolish move I said was going to HAUNT them for years to come...and Its ALREADY happening, heh heh

Money. Money, money, money. The Twins determined at the time that they couldn't afford Prior's signing bonus. Looking back, you could see it either way. At the time, it was certainly the only decision that Ryan could make when Pohlad was being tight with funds, with contraction looming, etc. Don't forget that your beloved Cubbies had next choice, and the Twins knew that. Had the White Sox been second, the Twins would have ponied up the dough.

In the long run, I think that Mauer was the right choice, but we'll have to see how that plays out.

GO TWINS!

voodoochile
03-13-2003, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
Money. Money, money, money. The Twins determined at the time that they couldn't afford Prior's signing bonus. Looking back, you could see it either way. At the time, it was certainly the only decision that Ryan could make when Pohlad was being tight with funds, with contraction looming, etc. Don't forget that your beloved Cubbies had next choice, and the Twins knew that. Had the White Sox been second, the Twins would have ponied up the dough.

In the long run, I think that Mauer was the right choice, but we'll have to see how that plays out.

GO TWINS!

That could have been written by a Reinsdorf apologist, just replace Prior with any number of big contract players and the results are the same.

The fact is that both owners are cheap and for the most part refuse to shell out the money necessary to improve their teams chances for a title.

Don't you as a fan get tired of having to explain why your owner didn't make the correct move because of financial considerations?

Hangar18
03-13-2003, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
Money. Money, money, money. The Twins determined at the time that they couldn't afford Prior's signing bonus. Looking back, you could see it either way. At the time, it was certainly the only decision that Ryan could make when Pohlad was being tight with funds, with contraction looming, etc. Don't forget that your beloved Cubbies had next choice, and the Twins knew that. Had the White Sox been second, the Twins would have ponied up the dough.

In the long run, I think that Mauer was the right choice, but we'll have to see how that plays out.

GO TWINS!

hhahahaha, Feuryeiinsriongs, Im going to, with great pleasure Disagree with ya my man heh heh. That was a dumb decision then, only to get Dumber for the Twins as they years and Cy Youngs go by. When you get the chance to draft an IMPACT player, you have to take it. The Twins are now Lumped in the same Class as the 1982 Portland TrailBlazer Mgmt, who with a chance to draft a Michael Jordan from UNC, they chose to go with a "better all-around player", and skipped him. We all know how Important PITCHING IS....ask us. we need better starting pitching. That the Twins were Foolish to have skipped him is beyond comprehension.....hahahahah to them. though the Twins paid 2 million for 1 year of Rogers....they couldve just stretched that same Total out to 5 years, and gotten 5 yrs of PRIOR instead.
1 year for 38 yr old pitcher
vs.
5 years for 22 yr old pitcher
decisions decisions........
What the twins did in essence, is choose not to pay for something NOW (which wouldve been cheaper) instead choosing to pay for something when they need it LATER, with a Credit Card.
The Interest (lost Prior yrs) will KILL THAT TEAM come 2006

doublem23
03-13-2003, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by maurice
Hmmm . . . interesting argument. Which catcher would you take straight up for Buehrle?

Straight up for Buehrle... Hmmmm..

Off the top of my head

Jorge Posada
Paul LoDuca
Ivan Rodriguez (Well.. I would have, but now we have to see if he's healthy... If he is, definitely)
A.J. Pierzynski

Straight up for Buehrle would have to be a pretty good defensive catcher with some pop in the bat, but I'd say that if both Mauer and Prior live up to their potential, Mauer will be much more valuable. Catchers can play every other game and make an entire staff better. A defensive catcher that can hit (I-Rod of a few years ago) is probably the best player you can have in baseball.

fhqwhgads
03-13-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
Straight up for Buehrle... Hmmmm..

Off the top of my head

...

A.J. Pierzynski


Now there's something I didn't expect to see on this board. I have to agree, though. There's no way I'd trade Pierzynski for Buehrle strictly on baseball principles, let alone if you consider the finances.

GO TWINS!

southpaw40
03-13-2003, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
Now there's something I didn't expect to see on this board. I have to agree, though. There's no way I'd trade Pierzynski for Buehrle strictly on baseball principles, let alone if you consider the finances.

GO TWINS!

Kinda surprised me too!

Don't know what you mean by "baseball principles", but if you would explain it, maybe I could understand why you wouldn't give up a middle of the road everyday player for a top tier pitcher!

Wonder how many GM's would just jump all over this deal (if they were getting Buehrle)?

fhqwhgads
03-13-2003, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile

Don't you as a fan get tired of having to explain why your owner didn't make the correct move because of financial considerations?

OfcourseIdodonberidiculous. Unfortunately, that's the way baseball business works (for everyone but the Yankees).

Originally posted by Hangar18


hhahahaha, Feuryeiinsriongs, Im going to, with great pleasure Disagree with ya my man heh heh. That was a dumb decision then, only to get Dumber for the Twins as they years and Cy Youngs go by. When you get the chance to draft an IMPACT player, you have to take it. The Twins are now Lumped in the same Class as the 1982 Portland TrailBlazer Mgmt, who with a chance to draft a Michael Jordan from UNC, they chose to go with a "better all-around player", and skipped him. We all know how Important PITCHING IS....ask us. we need better starting pitching. That the Twins were Foolish to have skipped him is beyond comprehension.....hahahahah to them. though the Twins paid 2 million for 1 year of Rogers....they couldve just stretched that same Total out to 5 years, and gotten 5 yrs of PRIOR instead.
1 year for 38 yr old pitcher
vs.
5 years for 22 yr old pitcher
decisions decisions........
What the twins did in essence, is choose not to pay for something NOW (which wouldve been cheaper) instead choosing to pay for something when they need it LATER, with a Credit Card.
The Interest (lost Prior yrs) will KILL THAT TEAM come 2006

Hangar, there are SO many things wrong with that assessment that I don't know where to start. How about the beginning...

...as they years and Cy Youngs go by...

Wow. Can I get that baseball stats book you have? I could probably make a sweet chunk of change knowing all this stuff in advance.

The Twins are now Lumped in the same Class as the 1982 Portland TrailBlazer Mgmt, who with a chance to draft a Michael Jordan from UNC, they chose to go with a "better all-around player", and skipped him.

Mark Prior is no Michael Jordan. Mark Prior could never be a Michael Jordan. No player in any sport that only participates in less than half of every fifth game could be a Michael Jordan. This comparison is not worthy of the fine opinion-making I've seen on this board.

Twins paid 2 million for 1 year of Rogers....they couldve just stretched that same Total out to 5 years, and gotten 5 yrs of PRIOR instead.
1 year for 38 yr old pitcher
vs.
5 years for 22 yr old pitcher


Aren't you forgetting that little signing bonus? The Cubs paid a total of $10.5 million for him. Try those calculations again.

Don't forget that pitching has not been the weakness of the Twins for quite some time. It's not a very good strategy to always take the best player available regardless of the need of the team.

The Interest (lost Prior yrs) will KILL THAT TEAM come 2006

Looking forward to 2006, here, with Mauer's potential. See you then.

GO TWINS!

fhqwhgads
03-13-2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by southpaw40
Kinda surprised me too!

Don't know what you mean by "baseball principles", but if you would explain it, maybe I could understand why you wouldn't give up a middle of the road everyday player for a top tier pitcher!

Wonder how many GM's would just jump all over this deal (if they were getting Buehrle)?

My baseball principles suggest to me that a team shouldn't give away a catcher who can call a great game, be a leader in the clubhouse, be a serious pain in the rear to opponents, and bat .300 in the eight hole to get a pitcher that would make a slightly-higher-than-marginal improvment to an already above-average starting rotation.

That said, I'm sure that a team with a lack of quality starters might consider it. I'm just saying that the Twins wouldn't, and shouldn't.

GO TWINS!

czalgosz
03-13-2003, 12:28 PM
It doesn't matter if you're the Yankees. If KW is stupid enough to offer Buerhle for Pierzynski, you make the deal. I don't care how great his clubhouse presence is, he's not that good.

I can't believe this is even open for debate. It would be like the Millwood/Estrada trade.

Hangar18
03-13-2003, 12:39 PM
Freihisruoihs, im only basing Jordan vs Prior in the context that the Scouts ranked him. they have been calling him the "greatest minor league pitcher EVER". thats a lot of years of pitchers coming up to the Bigs. Also, as for that "signing bonus" thing, the cubs expertly worked that bonus into an actual ML Contract, which was 10.6 million over 5 years (the .6 part might be wrong). basically, instead of throwing 10 mill at him and a minor league contract, they gave him an ML deal. yes, I am getting ahead of myself with all the "cy young" talk, but I dont think in all my years, ive heard the majority of scouts call someone the "greatest ever". that should say something. PLUS, Ive read where other scouts for ML teams have been "privately criticizing the Twins" for passing on Prior. you cant tell me a Prior led Twin team making the playoffs the next 2 yrs in a row doesnt make the State of MN happy, Twins fans Happy, and next thing you know,,,,a Stadium Suddenly is Getting Approved up there in Minny (kind of like in 95, Griffey leads M's to playoffs, and Safeco was soon Approved) Like I said, not Taking Prior is probably the Death Knell for a Team in Minny im sorry to say.

fhqwhgads
03-13-2003, 12:42 PM
If KW is stupid enough to offer Buerhle for Pierzynski, you make the deal.

Eek. I'd hate to see Tom Prince as our regular catcher. Or Matt LeCroy. No thank you.

GO TWINS!

czalgosz
03-13-2003, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
Eek. I'd hate to see Tom Prince as our regular catcher. Or Matt LeCroy. No thank you.

GO TWINS!

ML average catchers are easy to find. I'm sure that someone will be willing to take Kyle Lohse off your hands for a decent catcher.

If you're clearly going to rob the other team, you do the deal, regardless of what you need.

The only Twins players I'd trade Buerhle for straight up are Hunter and maybe Santana.

moochpuppy
03-13-2003, 12:55 PM
The other questionable little thing about the Twins taking Mauer over Prior is the fact that the Twins already have a great catching propect in their system, Justin Morneau. The kid is only 21 and hit .298 with 16 homers and 80 rbi's with an 88-42 strikeout-walk ratio to go along with 31 doubles in class AA. There is a slight chance this kid could be a late season/September call up.

So, with AJ's contract being up after this season or next, it's more than possible that the Twins will not renew and pay him the money that he'll want. Insert Morneau at the age of 23/24 for even less money than Mauer would get. Where does this leave Mauer? Seems like a strange draft pick to me.

fhqwhgads
03-13-2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
If you're clearly going to rob the other team, you do the deal, regardless of what you need.

That depends on what you consider a robbery. I wouldn't want to give an All-Star catcher to a division rival and have to deal with him directly 19 times. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

GO TWINS!

Hangar18
03-13-2003, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by moochpuppy
The other questionable little thing about the Twins taking Mauer over Prior is the fact that the Twins already have a great catching propect in their system, Justin Morneau. The kid is only 21 and hit .298 with 16 homers and 80 rbi's with an 88-42 strikeout-walk ratio to go along with 31 doubles in class AA. There is a slight chance this kid could be a late season/September call up.

So, with AJ's contract being up after this season or next, it's more than possible that the Twins will not renew and pay him the money that he'll want. Insert Morneau at the age of 23/24 for even less money than Mauer would get. Where does this leave Mauer? Seems like a strange draft pick to me.

WOW, I totally forgot about the Morneau guy. Methinks the Twins have made a Monumental Mistake more and more.....Not Taking Prior may have Just signed their own Demise (and dont think thats not what they were trying to do in the 1st Place)
I really feel bad for Twins fans. They seem fairly together about their love for that team. Its too bad we dont have a Commissioner around to put a STOP TO THIS NONSENSE

fhqwhgads
03-13-2003, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by moochpuppy
The other questionable little thing about the Twins taking Mauer over Prior is the fact that the Twins already have a great catching propect in their system, Justin Morneau.

:o:

mooch, Morneau is a 1B. Don't get me started on the Mientkiewicz/Sears/Morneau deal. :D:

GO TWINS!

czalgosz
03-13-2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
That depends on what you consider a robbery. I wouldn't want to give an All-Star catcher to a division rival and have to deal with him directly 19 times. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

GO TWINS!

Nothing wrong with Pierzynski; he's a solid guy. But he's got a lot of holes in his game; he has little power, less patience, and he's very average defensively. Buerhle would clearly be the ace of the Minnesota staff. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

But like you said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

southpaw40
03-13-2003, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
My baseball principles suggest to me that a team shouldn't give away a catcher who can call a great game, be a leader in the clubhouse, be a serious pain in the rear to opponents, and bat .300 in the eight hole to get a pitcher that would make a slightly-higher-than-marginal improvment to an already above-average starting rotation.

That said, I'm sure that a team with a lack of quality starters might consider it. I'm just saying that the Twins wouldn't, and shouldn't.

GO TWINS!

Well. let's see.........five pitchers make up a starting rotation.........
last season Mark Buehrle had better numbers than any ONE of the Twin starters..........my math says that if you add 20% to the whole which is better than the remaining 80%, you upgrade significantly,,,,not marginally!

Of the attributes which you give your catcher, only the BA is quantifiable, and you can look at the rosters of the majority of winning teams last year and find better offensive numbers (BA notwithstanding, I'm speaking of RBI per at bat, runs scored, etc.). Calls a great game,,,maybe the Twins let him call his game, don't know,,,,,leader in the clubhouse, don't know, never been there, take your word for it, sounds like you have,,,,,,serious pain in the rear, there's a quality which I'm sure is high on every scout's list!

Another quantifiable statistic for catchers is percentage of base stealers thrown out,,,,,,,,pretty sure he was in the bottom half of the league among primary catchers.

Your display of fandom is admirable, but PUHLEEEZE,,,,the numbers suggest not trading your catcher for Mark Buehrle would be the same as the Angels refusing to trade Benji Molina (thier catcher) to the Cardinals for Matt Morris.

ma-gaga
03-13-2003, 03:07 PM
well fhqwhgads is holding his own, I think it's pretty funny that you are telling us that the Twins are going to suck in 2006 about the same time Burhle is leaving for St.Louie...

If I'm the Twins I take Mauer as well.
A.) Cheaper
B.) AJ had NOT established himself at that point, and the Twins already had established starting pitching. It was a need. Jeeze, lets build a team of outfielders despite the need for infielders, let's see how that goes.
C.) Local kid. Don't overestimate how much good publicity it is to take local talent.

AJ is a great player, however, if I'm the Twins I trade him in a heartbeat for Buerhle. Heartbeat. AJ is not due for FA for 3+ years. He's entering his third year in the league, same as Buerhle. Don't get that wrong.

Morneau will get his chance, at first base. Everyone in Twinsland knows it's going to happen, especially Mientkiewicz. They even have a backup plan, Todd Sears, in case he's not ready. Same with Mauer, he's going to get his shot in 2-3 years, just when AJ Pierzynski starts getting expensive (>$4MM a year). It's not fair, but that's what happens.

Was it a mistake not to take Prior? Maybe. I'd certainly be happier TODAY with him on the team. I'm certain I'll be happier in 2006 with Mauer on the Twins and Prior making his $10MM+ for someone else.

moochpuppy
03-13-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
:o:

mooch, Morneau is a 1B. Don't get me started on the Mientkiewicz/Sears/Morneau deal. :D:

GO TWINS!

Sure, now he is. But before the Mauer draft pick he was the Twins catcher of the future. Now he becomes an above average first baseman.

Sears is wasting away in this organization.

moochpuppy
03-13-2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
Morneau will get his chance, at first base. Everyone in Twinsland knows it's going to happen, especially Mientkiewicz. They even have a backup plan, Todd Sears, in case he's not ready.


Sears has to get his shot now. He's already 27 years old and they just signed Mientkiewicz to a two year deal. They need to trade this kid so he can get a shot someplace else.

maurice
03-13-2003, 04:56 PM
Interesting debate. Respectfully, I'd say that any GM in baseball would be nuts to refuse to trade any one of their catchers for Buerhle, Prior, Zito, or a comparable, young starting pitcher. IMHO, any one of Posada, LoDuca, I-Rod, Pierzynski, Mauer, etc. can be had for any one of those pitchers in a heart beat.

Bisco Stu
03-14-2003, 12:17 AM
As the only Sox/Mets diehard on this board, I can assure you that The Gambler will never pitch well in any sort of "big game." He doesn't have it in him.

siugrad25
03-14-2003, 01:34 AM
In my eyes, while nice for the Twinkies, this signing really has little effect on the Sox. Rogers will pick up the slack for Milton for a while and when Mr. Milton comes back, we'll worry about it then. It would have been great to get Rogers cheap especially with Wright a little sore, but I think depth is on our side right now (even though White scares me early). I'm liking what I'm seeing from the majority of our players in ST, and I'm getting giddy with Colon/Buehrle so far on what they've been doing on the field.

So I'm just going to sit back and relax and wait for the season to start. And K.C. and Detroit and Cleveland our first victims, April should set the tone for a great season!!! :gulp:

Gargamelle
03-14-2003, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by moochpuppy
Sears has to get his shot now. He's already 27 years old and they just signed Mientkiewicz to a two year deal. They need to trade this kid so he can get a shot someplace else.

Actually, Mientkiewicz was signed to a one-year deal.

hold2dibber
03-14-2003, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by Bisco Stu
As the only Sox/Mets diehard on this board

On this board? Me thinks you may be the only Sox/Mets diehard on the planet! :smile:

Bisco Stu
03-14-2003, 07:17 PM
You're probably right, h2d.

Tom Seaver is forever the link between the two teams.