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Unregistered
03-11-2003, 11:14 AM
Not sure if anybody saw this, but it's a pretty funny (and sadly true, it seems) editorial in the Sun-Times this morning:

I admire Buehrle's resolve. But my calculator says he chose to forfeit $3,388,333.33 this season alone, not counting the investment potential of those millions. What was he thinking? The things he could have bought with those millions. Box seats at Busch Stadium, a lifetime supply of Cardinals hats, a Mark McGwire bobblehead doll.

Buehrle's dash for the 'Birds (http://www.suntimes.com/output/slezak/cst-spt-carol111.html)

czalgosz
03-11-2003, 11:21 AM
The article does bring up a good point - the enormous value of having cash in hand. When you're talking 7 figures, having 1 million in hand right now is a lot more valuable than 1 million 2 years down the road. Him giving that up is very brave and potentially very stupid.

As to him going to St. Louis, as I've said before, if he wants to go to the Cardinals, nothing the Sox can do right now will prevent him going to the Cardinals. The only thing they can do is make him a better offer when he becomes a Free Agent.

34 Inch Stick
03-11-2003, 11:44 AM
I think the Sox should give one more year of kissing his behind with above market contract offers. Let's see if he is really set on going to the Cardinals or if he is just looking to bargain hard. If he will not accept next year, it is arbitration each year with very average offers.

He is still our guy and I am happy he is here. I will cheer for him and enjoy him for four more years. There is no reason to overpay for him though.

doublem23
03-11-2003, 12:08 PM
The fact of the matter is he's not going anywhere until after the 2006 season and a lot can happen in those 3 1/2 years.

34 Inch Stick
03-11-2003, 12:28 PM
A lot can happen if Buhrle is open to letting them happen. If not there is nothing that is going to change his mind. So gauging whether he is open to staying with the Sox for the very long term is critical. Maybe JR should do one of his one on one lunches with the guy to see where his mind is at.

If he is set on St. Louis I don't fault him. But if we know that, maybe we can do a great trade to preempt any future unpleasantness. I would feel O.K. with losing Buhrle if we got say Matt Morris.

Dadawg_77
03-11-2003, 12:30 PM
Don't you think people are taking Mark's Choice a little to seriously? I am a fan of the game, which means what happens to between those two lines is what concerns me. Whether or not Mark took the Sox's deal isn't mine nor should it be a fans real concern. What we should be concern with as fans is what will he do while standing on the mound this season. If Mark wishes not to accept a deal from the Sox now or ever, that is right. Complaining and wishing him bad luck does nothing but ruin the fun of watching the game, and isn't that why we are fans in the first place?

Now I am not saying we shouldn't care about front office moves, but when it comes negotiating contracts we should let the business be the business and the game be the game. IMHO, fans get caught up to much in who makes what and what someone rejected. It takes the fun away from the game.

Bobby Thigpen
03-11-2003, 01:16 PM
Buehrle's an idiot. His refusal of a 5 year deal may be understandable if he wants to bolt to St. Louis as soon as possible, but his refusal of a previous offer that would have only put him under contract until 2006 (THE FIRST YEAR HE CAN LEAVE ANYWAY) is unexplainable. Why you would rather be paid 450,000 instead of 3 or 4 mill is beyond me. Yeah a lot can happen in 3 1/2 years, including a career ending injury. Where will MB be if he gets seriously injured before he can run to the Cardinals? He should've taken the earlier offer and ran with the money in hand. This whole episode is becoming very tedious and really is making it harder to like Buehrle the person.

doublem23
03-11-2003, 01:22 PM
He's not an idiot; he's banking on he'll be able to make more in arbitration that what Williams is offering him now, and he if keeps having seasons like he's been having, he will.

Unregistered
03-11-2003, 01:29 PM
The problem with going to arbitration is that Buerhle HAS to keep playing at this level... and considering how hard the Sox pitching staff gets worked year in and year out, I think Buerhle would have been wise to take the long term money. Remember Mike Sirotka? Jim Parque?

Bobby Thigpen
03-11-2003, 01:35 PM
Will he be able to in 2 years of arbitration make up for what he would have made in 3 years under contract? I doubt it. Had he accepted the 3, 4, or 5 mill a year deal (I can't remember what it was) he stood to make between 9- 15 mill over three years GUARANTEED. Now he must HOPE to get 6-8 mill in two years of arbitration to even EQUAL the deal he would have been GUARANTEED by accepting the club's offer in December. Those numbers are only based on him repeating what has happened in the last two years. What if he gets hurt and misses half the season? Will he be able to bank on making that in arbitration? I doubt it.

I don't know, but guaranteed money sounds a heck of a lot smarter than hoping to make out like a bandit in arbitration. Especially in today's financial environment in baseball. That is why I think he's an idiot.

Unregistered
03-11-2003, 01:37 PM
"It is his agent's view that Mark is better off going year to year as opposed to taking a guaranteed sum right now and providing the club with some cost certainty."
"At the end of the day, I think the agent preferred something shorter that would not impact Mark's free agency."
It's quotes like this from Assistant GM Rick Hahn that me believe something that was brought up in a thread a little while back, and that is that Mark is busy listening to other people (his family, his agent) and not thinking for himself. His agent is trying to be a mini-Scott Boras, looking for the big pay day, which may or may not stop Buerhle from being set for life regardless of injury or decline in performance.

doublem23
03-11-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
The problem with going to arbitration is that Buerhle HAS to keep playing at this level... and considering how hard the Sox pitching staff gets worked year in and year out, I think Buerhle would have been wise to take the long term money. Remember Mike Sirotka? Jim Parque?

I know. That's the risk he's taking... If he stays healthy and if he keeps pitching at this level, he's going to make $5 million a year look like chump change.

Mark is on the track to be a very wealthy guy. I don't understand why people have a problem with that. Baseball players generally have to call their playing careers over when they are around 40. That's roughly 20 years to make as much money as they can. He's taking a risk. If it works out for him, it will be a wise one. I'm sure he understands what he's doing, and I really don't think this should come as surprise to anyone.

doublem23
03-11-2003, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Will he be able to in 2 years of arbitration make up for what he would have made in 3 years under contract? I doubt it. Had he accepted the 3, 4, or 5 mill a year deal (I can't remember what it was) he stood to make between 9- 15 mill over three years GUARANTEED. Now he must HOPE to get 6-8 mill in two years of arbitration to even EQUAL the deal he would have been GUARANTEED by accepting the club's offer in December. Those numbers are only based on him repeating what has happened in the last two years. What if he gets hurt and misses half the season? Will he be able to bank on making that in arbitration? I doubt it.

I don't know, but guaranteed money sounds a heck of a lot smarter than hoping to make out like a bandit in arbitration. Especially in today's financial environment in baseball. That is why I think he's an idiot.

You have no idea how much money he'll be able to make.

moochpuppy
03-11-2003, 01:54 PM
Card fans brain trust (http://boards.go.com/cgi/mlb/request.dll?MESSAGE&room=mlb_stl&id=522912&move=nextThread)

Check out his proposed deal. Laughable.

34 Inch Stick
03-11-2003, 03:00 PM
Like I said in my other post, time to start talking about crazy trades with the cardinals.

The truth is we do not have to even consider trading for at least two full seasons. If he still will not sign long term after 2004 is finished, it must be considered a statment that he does not want to be with the White Sox. At that point he is at his highest trade value to us.

Imagine what people would be willing to trade for a 25 year old left hander with 75-80 wins and a world series ring. We should be able to get at least two Estrada's for him.

czalgosz
03-11-2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Imagine what people would be willing to trade for a 25 year old left hander with 75-80 wins and a world series ring .

ARGH!!! Jinx!! Jinx!!

idseer
03-11-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Like I said in my other post, time to start talking about crazy trades with the cardinals.

The truth is we do not have to even consider trading for at least two full seasons. If he still will not sign long term after 2004 is finished, it must be considered a statment that he does not want to be with the White Sox. At that point he is at his highest trade value to us.

Imagine what people would be willing to trade for a 25 year old left hander with 75-80 wins and a world series ring. We should be able to get at least two Estrada's for him.


unless the trade is TO the cards, why should another team give up very much for him? if he's bent on stl then he still won't sign with anyone until he's a fa. would you trade much for a guy who is basically sticking it to the team that brought him up and just hope he still won't bolt at the first opportunity?

gosox41
03-11-2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
The problem with going to arbitration is that Buerhle HAS to keep playing at this level... and considering how hard the Sox pitching staff gets worked year in and year out, I think Buerhle would have been wise to take the long term money. Remember Mike Sirotka? Jim Parque?

I thought the Sox have been cautious with pitch count the last couple of seasons. I remeber seeing a lot of people complaining about them being too concervative. A lot of Buehrle's starts have been around 100 pitches, give or take a few. It's not enough to cause a huge concern since he's not a power pitcher but evetually all those pitches will take their toll on anybody.

Bob

czalgosz
03-11-2003, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I thought the Sox have been cautious with pitch count the last couple of seasons. I remeber seeing a lot of people complaining about them being too concervative. A lot of Buehrle's starts have been around 100 pitches, give or take a few. It's not enough to cause a huge concern since he's not a power pitcher but evetually all those pitches will take their toll on anybody.

Bob

Buerhle's been an exception to Manuel's generally careful approach to pitch count.

He had 7 starts last year in which he threw 110 or more pitches (danger zone IMO) -

Apr 22 - 110
May 3 - 120
Jun 15 - 110
Jul 6 - 112
Jul 23 - 112
Sep 1 - 118
Sep 23 - 123

He only threw less than 90 pitches once (in a start where he got knocked out in the 3rd inning). He may be able to handle the abuse, but there's no question he's been abused.

34 Inch Stick
03-11-2003, 04:14 PM
id, my scenario puts him on another team for two years no matter what he wants to do in the future. Imagine if Oakland offered Zito, Hudson or Mulder and we knew we could have one but only for two years. I think we would be happy to have him. Look how happy we are to have Colon, and that is only for one year.

Daver
03-11-2003, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Buerhle's been an exception to Manuel's generally careful approach to pitch count.

He had 7 starts last year in which he threw 110 or more pitches (danger zone IMO) -

Apr 22 - 110
May 3 - 120
Jun 15 - 110
Jul 6 - 112
Jul 23 - 112
Sep 1 - 118
Sep 23 - 123

He only threw less than 90 pitches once (in a start where he got knocked out in the 3rd inning). He may be able to handle the abuse, but there's no question he's been abused.

Pitch counts have little meaning if you train your pitchers properly.

czalgosz
03-11-2003, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by daver
Pitch counts have little meaning if you train your pitchers properly.

Oh, I absolutely agree. Pitchers with good mechanics don't have worries when it comes to high pitch counts, and Buerhle has the best mechanics of any Sox pitcher in my memory. The problem is that mechanics tend to deteriorate once pitchers get tired. I haven't seen evidence of this in Buerhle, but you never know...

My point was simply that, while Manuel does indeed keep guys like Garland and Wright on a short leash when it comes to pitch count, he doesn't do it with Buerhle.

idseer
03-11-2003, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
id, my scenario puts him on another team for two years no matter what he wants to do in the future. Imagine if Oakland offered Zito, Hudson or Mulder and we knew we could have one but only for two years. I think we would be happy to have him. Look how happy we are to have Colon, and that is only for one year.

i'm not saying no one will want him 34. i'm saying we won't get his worth.
as you pointed out ... we picked up colon, right? well what did we give up for him?
not much!

Lip Man 1
03-11-2003, 06:23 PM
Folks:

This little item was in Joe Cowley's Daily Southtown story and goes a very long way in explaining why Buehrle did what he did:

A major league source said Buehrle and Berry walked away from a five-year deal potentially worth $27 million. The first three years reportedly were guaranteed at $11.5 million. If Buehrle were to have pitched at least 200 innings in 2005, he would have earned $6.5 million for 2006. The final year was a Sox option at $10 million with a $1 million buyout that would have made it a $9 million deal.

However, a further examination of the final deal offered by the Sox shows that nearly 70 percent of the dollar value was not guaranteed

If true, can't say I blame mark.

Lip

SuckerforSox
03-11-2003, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

This little item was in Joe Cowley's Daily Southtown story and goes a very long way in explaining why Buehrle did what he did:

A major league source said Buehrle and Berry walked away from a five-year deal potentially worth $27 million. The first three years reportedly were guaranteed at $11.5 million. If Buehrle were to have pitched at least 200 innings in 2005, he would have earned $6.5 million for 2006. The final year was a Sox option at $10 million with a $1 million buyout that would have made it a $9 million deal.

However, a further examination of the final deal offered by the Sox shows that nearly 70 percent of the dollar value was not guaranteed

If true, can't say I blame mark.

Lip

He would be guaranteed the 11.5 million which is about 38% of the contract so I don't know where Joe gets off saying 70% was not guaranteed. Barry Zito signed a 4-year deal for less than 10 million last year so I think Buehrle having 11.5 over 3 yrs guaranteed was fair.

HawkDJ
03-11-2003, 08:38 PM
However, a further examination of the final deal offered by the Sox shows that nearly 70 percent of the dollar value was not guaranteed[/B]

If true, can't say I blame mark.



Lip [/B]

Well if Buehrle were to pitch 200 innings in 2005 and 2006 it would all be guarenteed. That wouldn't have been much of a problem.