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View Full Version : Borchard could cause a problem.......


moochpuppy
03-05-2003, 09:22 AM
......for Aaron Rowand that is:

Borchard making noise with his bat (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-030304sox,1,3874915.story?coll=cs%2Dwhitesox%2Dhea dlines)

Borchard's obvious weakness has been strikeouts. He whiffed 158 times at Double-A Birmingham in 2001 and 139 times at Charlotte last year.

But Borchard has worked to refine his swing by eliminating extra movements and bad habits.

The result: two strikeouts in 15 at-bats this spring.

Bobby Thigpen
03-05-2003, 09:50 AM
I hope so. I've never been to optimistic about Rowand being our everyday CF. I know people will get on me about his stats, but I just don't think he's an everyday player. Besides, if you put him out there for 162 games there's a very good chance he'll probably kill himself. :smile:

mike squires
03-05-2003, 09:56 AM
That's OK with me! It will make that new Borchard autographed baseball look that much sweeter on my mantle! Never was the biggest Rowand fan. I liked that game where he went barreling into the wall to watch those two balls but he's just not a very clutch kind of guy and in my opinion will never develop into an everyday player...at least not with us. l

34 Inch Stick
03-05-2003, 10:38 AM
Keep Borchard in the minors for at least a month and let Rowand play himself out of job. That way the Sox can satisfy themselves on Rowand's future and extend the date of Borchard's eventual free agency.

I don't think that the hitting out of the CF position is going to be critical for us and Rowand can be satisfactory for at least a month.

dougs78
03-05-2003, 10:42 AM
Keep Borchard in the minors for at least a month and let Rowand play himself out of job. That way the Sox can satisfy themselves on Rowand's future and extend the date of Borchard's eventual free agency.

Great point. What is the limit on that FA stuff? Is it one month or just not in the majors by opening day? Either way it would be HUGE If borchard can "get it" and be ready to help this year. Of course there are always ifs, but man, if we can get him producing like hes capable from CF, then our offense goes from very, very good to simply dominating...

Jimenez
Valentin
Ordonez
Thomas
Konerko
Borchard
Lee
Crede
Olivo


WHOA!!!

moochpuppy
03-05-2003, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by dougs78

Jimenez
Valentin
Ordonez
Thomas
Konerko
Borchard
Lee
Crede
Olivo


WHOA!!!

I would not want to be an opposing pitcher. You have seven of nine guys capable of 20+ homeruns.

Randar68
03-05-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by moochpuppy
I would not want to be an opposing pitcher. You have seven of nine guys capable of 20+ homeruns.

If that lineup plays 150+ games each, I'm not sure you don't have six or seven guys capable of 30+ HR's...

moochpuppy
03-05-2003, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
If that lineup plays 150+ games each, I'm not sure you don't have six or seven guys capable of 30+ HR's...

I didn't want to be too optimistic Randar. :D:

joecrede
03-05-2003, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Keep Borchard in the minors for at least a month and let Rowand play himself out of job. That way the Sox can satisfy themselves on Rowand's future and extend the date of Borchard's eventual free agency.

I tend to agree with you, I'd rather have an extra year of Borchard when he's 29-30 than 6 weeks when he's 24.

A caveat would be how would it effect him if he continues to hit -- and it's real early in spring training -- and still starts the season in triple-A. The other thing is with such a weak early schedule, maybe that is the best time to break him in.

duke of dorwood
03-05-2003, 12:05 PM
Its true that everyone seems to hit in Arizona, but its the improved contact he's making thats an early eye opener. The manager doesnt usually glow about anyone like that.

czalgosz
03-05-2003, 12:06 PM
Well, I wouldn't necessarily be against him starting in CF as long as he proves that he can cover for Lee's weakness in left. Lee is better than he was, but he's still below-average, and Borchard will have to be a lot better than average to make up for that...

PaleHoseGeorge
03-05-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Well, I wouldn't necessarily be against him starting in CF as long as he proves that he can cover for Lee's weakness in left. Lee is better than he was, but he's still below-average, and Borchard will have to be a lot better than average to make up for that...

We covered this topic earlier this winter. IIRC, Lee's defensive numbers were actually ABOVE-average for leftfielders, and his patience at the plate made him above-average with the stick, too.

Forgive me for putting fuel on the fire, but somebody else pointed out (joecrede?), the money we gave to Konerko would probably have been better spent on Lee. Konerko is only an average firstbasemen. <now runs for cover and hides in foxhole>

Obviously their grooming Borchard as the next Sox centerfielder, but clearly his destiny is to play a corner position in some future season.

czalgosz
03-05-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

Forgive me for putting fuel on the fire, but somebody else pointed out (joecrede?), the money we gave to Konerko would probably have been better spent on Lee. Konerko is only an average firstbasemen. <now runs for cover and hides in foxhole>



I actually agree on Konerko. I like him, he's doing a fine job, but there's a bunch of guys out there who could be just about as good at a fraction of the cost. Look at Daubach.

My main concern about the outfield defense is the range of Borchard and Lee. I don't doubt that they can handle what they get to, but it just seems to me that there will be a lot of doubles dropping into the gap between them.

The fact that the Sox pitching staff is loaded with fly-ball pitchers makes it even more important to consider, IMO.

But I agree that Borchard's bat makes it really really hard to ignore him.

pudge
03-05-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
I actually agree on Konerko. I like him, he's doing a fine job, but there's a bunch of guys out there who could be just about as good at a fraction of the cost. Look at Daubach.



Yeah, but it's also about marketing, and Konerko is quickly becoming a fan favorite, plus he's great with the media, where as guys like Maggs and Lee can hardly speak English. Not to mention, he was an All-Star last year.

At any rate, I am in the Rowand camp for now. The guy deserves his shot. For everyone thrilled with a lineup with a bunch of power guys, power isn't everything. You need hitters. Guys who won't strikeout a zillion times. I would rather see a contact, OBP CF than Borchard in our lineup (and I'm NOT saying that's Rowand, I'm just saying I'd rather have that type of CF).

jeremyb1
03-05-2003, 01:54 PM
yeah. i see a couple problems. first of all, we have to remember we're going off of only a handful of spring games here. additionally, rowand isn't a backup outfielder at least not on our team. if borchard wins the cf spot and we're forced to deal rowand we're not going to get much value since other teams know we need to deal him and if we make him a backup and then deal him, again his value won't be very high. its not as though we lack an option in cf, why not send to borchard to charlotte and see if he keeps it up or at least see if he can keep this production up throughout the rest of the spring.

moochpuppy
03-05-2003, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

Forgive me for putting fuel on the fire, but somebody else pointed out (joecrede?), the money we gave to Konerko would probably have been better spent on Lee. Konerko is only an average firstbasemen. <now runs for cover and hides in foxhole>



I agree to an extent but if Konehead could put together two decent halves of baseball he could easily put up numbers in the 30-35 HR and 120-130 range.

Let's also not forget that as of today (Happy Birthday Konehead!) he is just 27 years old.

FanOf14
03-05-2003, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
We covered this topic earlier this winter. IIRC, Lee's defensive numbers were actually ABOVE-average for leftfielders, and his patience at the plate made him above-average with the stick, too.

Doesn't say much for left fielders in MLB... :)

moochpuppy
03-05-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by pudge
power isn't everything.

:shammy

"It's the only thing."

czalgosz
03-05-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
why not send to borchard to charlotte and see if he keeps it up or at least see if he can keep this production up throughout the rest of the spring.

Actually, I'm sort of against giving people jobs based solely on Spring Training performance. His numbers at Charlotte last year were good but not great - nothing that would point to him getting the job.

If it were me making the decision, even if he finishes spring training strong, he'd still have to spend some time at AAA. Then in June/July, if he's tearing up the Int'l League, I'd give him the nod.

soxnut
03-05-2003, 02:25 PM
I'd wait a little bit on Borchard as well. Give him a month or two in the minors and see where he's at. I like Rowand, he does cover alot of ground, and it seems like something good always happens when he's playing. Not exactly a clutch hitter, but he does seem to get on base or at least advance runners over, make a great catch or something. I like that. :smile:

Bobby Thigpen
03-05-2003, 02:30 PM
Will Rowand be ready on Opening Day? Living here in the deep south I'm not able to get ANY news on the Sox. If he's not ready I would much rather put Borchard out there than Willie Harris. God, I think I'd rather see Valentin out there again than Harris.

moochpuppy
03-05-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Will Rowand be ready on Opening Day? Living here in the deep south I'm not able to get ANY news on the Sox. If he's not ready I would much rather put Borchard out there than Willie Harris. God, I think I'd rather see Valentin out there again than Harris.

Right now Rowand is DHing. He will be able to start playing the field on March 14th.

joecrede
03-05-2003, 03:28 PM
Wasn't there talk that Colorado was interested in Rowand last year? I remember a Cust-for-Rowand deal being discussed. Even though we don't have a spot for Cust right now trading Rowand for him would be highly recommended.

czalgosz
03-05-2003, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Wasn't there talk that Colorado was interested in Rowand last year? I remember a Cust-for-Rowand deal being discussed. Even though we don't have a spot for Cust right now trading Rowand for him would be highly recommended.

Actually I believe that was a three-way deal being discussed, where the Rockies would end up with Rowand, the A's would get Cust, and the Sox would get Cory Lidle. I'm not sure who pulled the plug on that deal.

fuzzy_patters
03-05-2003, 03:34 PM
Wasn't the knock against Joe Borchard that he strikes out too much? If he continues to make contact I don't see how you can start him in AAA. He took care of his weakness, and he has a higher upside than Rowand.

OfficerKarkovice
03-05-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Actually I believe that was a three-way deal being discussed, where the Rockies would end up with Rowand, the A's would get Cust, and the Sox would get Cory Lidle. I'm not sure who pulled the plug on that deal.

I believe it was the A's...don't quote me on that though.

hold2dibber
03-05-2003, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
additionally, rowand isn't a backup outfielder at least not on our team. if borchard wins the cf spot and we're forced to deal rowand we're not going to get much value since other teams know we need to deal him and if we make him a backup and then deal him, again his value won't be very high. its not as though we lack an option in cf, why not send to borchard to charlotte and see if he keeps it up or at least see if he can keep this production up throughout the rest of the spring.

I don't understand why you think Rowand isn't a backup outfielder (at least not on the Sox). I agree that Borchard should start in AAA, but I think he'll probably be ready to be called up and start before the end of the year. I think Rowand is a great backup outfielder if that happens - he can play all 3 outfield positions, he absolutely gives his all whenever he's put in there (no need to worry about him being unready or unmotivated if he's coming off the bench) and he has good speed.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-05-2003, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I don't understand why you think Rowand isn't a backup outfielder (at least not on the Sox). I agree that Borchard should start in AAA, but I think he'll probably be ready to be called up and start before the end of the year. I think Rowand is a great backup outfielder if that happens - he can play all 3 outfield positions, he absolutely gives his all whenever he's put in there (no need to worry about him being unready or unmotivated if he's coming off the bench) and he has good speed.

Aaron Rowand is nothing but a backup outfielder for any major league team this side of the Tampa Devil Dogs. He ought to be thankful any team with post-season aspirations considers him good enough to start for them. Good for him.

As for trade value, players like Aaron Rowand come a dime a dozen. We would be lucky to get a bag of baseballs for him. That says a lot about his talent level.

He can play center field for the Sox until Borchard is ready, which doesn't figure to be more than 6 months from today. After that he's strictly the fourth outfielder--and rightfully so.

Daver
03-05-2003, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
.

He can play center field for the Sox until Borchard is ready, which doesn't figure to be more than 6 months from today. After that he's strictly the fourth outfielder--and rightfully so.

If he continues to be as impressive at the plate as he started out this spring it will a LOT less than six months.

jeremyb1
03-05-2003, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I don't understand why you think Rowand isn't a backup outfielder (at least not on the Sox). I agree that Borchard should start in AAA, but I think he'll probably be ready to be called up and start before the end of the year. I think Rowand is a great backup outfielder if that happens - he can play all 3 outfield positions, he absolutely gives his all whenever he's put in there (no need to worry about him being unready or unmotivated if he's coming off the bench) and he has good speed.

maybe i should've been more clear. my intention was to say that at this point in his career i don't think rowand should be considered a backup outfielder. he's only 25 years old. my question for the naysayers is what has rowand done to show he's not good enough to start in the majors?

i see a guy who was a former first round pick, hit at every level in this minors, and has hit relatively well in the big leagues when he's been given regular at bats. if rowand could've been traded for cust as gammons reported last season, he's worth too much in a trade to relegate to the bench where he will be of limited use to use to us with rios cemented as our backup corner outfielder.

i'm not saying rowand will definately be starting somewhere in the majors 5 years from now but he's still young, he was a solid prospect, and he hasn't had any considerable struggles at the big league level, so i don't see why he shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt at this point.

lets refresh everyone's memory that borchard hit .272 in AAA last season so its not like we're looking at a guy who's going to hit for much average right away.

hsnterprize
03-06-2003, 07:30 AM
I confess I'm an Aaron Rowand fan, and I was rooting for him to start in CF last year until Kenny Lofton was brought here. I've been impressed with his hustle in the outfield, but Lofton has that extra zip when he attacks a fly ball...not to mention, his leaping ability to rob home run balls over and over again.

Call me either naive or optimistic, but I'm hoping that if Borchard keeps going like he is now, mabe he and Rowand can make the club. It'll be good competing for the CF job, and it'll make the Sox more solid in the outfield.