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StepsInSC
03-02-2003, 10:33 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=fanball-foulkelore&prov=fanball&type=fantasy

" Displaying all the shortsightedness of a three-year-old, Manuel demoted his closer to the role of setup man."

"He got screwed."

gogosoxgogo
03-02-2003, 10:39 AM
Yeah, I saw that, also. Atlhough I do agree with a lot of the points made, the article had a very negative spin on the White Sox. The one thing that gives me hope is how someone on here pointed out how 24 of Koch's 34 earned runs last year were against two teams, and two teams that we don't play all to often at that. That gives him an ERA of about 1 against every other team. Plus, he's a definate upgrade in terms of clubhouse presence and personality.

LuvSox
03-02-2003, 10:50 AM
Wasn't it Foulke that said he had tired of the bullpen and wanted to try a starting role in 2003, like he had given up? Unless all the negative press had an influence on him.

joecrede
03-02-2003, 11:08 AM
I believe Manuel's intent was to get Foulke out of the closer's role until Foulke got back on track. The thing was Osuna and Marte pitched too well as closer's for Foulke to get his job back. I don't think Manuel was stupid at all for leaving Foulke in the set-up role.

T Dog
03-02-2003, 11:37 AM
Every time I read a story like this, I flash back to the pre-1972 baseball magazines that predicted Richie Allen would destroy the up-and-coming White Sox.

It isn't easy to look into the future. It's harder if you don't have your facts straight. I think the writer here demonstrates that his knowledge of the situation is limited. He also writes -- at the beginning of spring training -- that this year will be different for Foulke because last year he finished spring training with a dead arm.

Foulke lost the closer role after he said he lost the confidence for the closer role. Along with a dead arm and a manager who didn't love him, that was part of his problem.

bc2k
03-02-2003, 01:05 PM
"Foulke finished the season with a 1.00 WHIP and 2.90 ERA—his fourth straight season with an ERA under 3.00—but just eight saves."

Foulke finished with at least 10 saves if memory serves me right. Foulke, Osuna, and Marte all had triple-digit saves last year.

duke of dorwood
03-02-2003, 01:29 PM
Foulke needed to be away from Manual. There may be a few others that need to be away from this guy too. I do not consider him an upper echelon manager.

hold2dibber
03-03-2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
Plus, he's a definate upgrade in terms of clubhouse presence and personality.

On what do you base that?

I've never heard anyone on the Sox team ever bad mouth Foulke at all. Maybe you're just suggesting that Koch's aggressiveness and brashness somehow constitute an "upgrade" because Foulke did not seem particularly aggressive or brash in terms of personality. If that's the case, I don't necessarily agree. I don't think a brash or aggressive personality is necessarily better in terms of clubhouse presence. The one thing it may help with is psychologically getting over blown saves.

hold2dibber
03-03-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=fanball-foulkelore&prov=fanball&type=fantasy

" Displaying all the shortsightedness of a three-year-old, Manuel demoted his closer to the role of setup man."

"He got screwed."

The problem with this interpretation, I think, is that Foulke agreed with the "demotion" at the time. I think he had lost confidence in himself and didn't want to be closing games. Shortly thereafter, however, I think he was back to his old self and was the Sox' best option at closer. I think Manuel probably should have re-instated him in that role; however, at that point the season was already lost and Marte and Osuna were doing well, too. It did make some sense to see how those guys could perform in that role at that time. If the Sox had not traded Foulke and he was still with the Sox, I would have been mucho pissed if he hadn't been re-instated as the closer for '03.

Dadawg_77
03-03-2003, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by bc2k

Foulke finished with at least 10 saves if memory serves me right. Foulke, Osuna, and Marte all had triple-digit saves last year.


Damn, that is very impressive, but how did Twins beats when we had over 300 wins last year.

:)

FanOf14
03-03-2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
"Foulke finished the season with a 1.00 WHIP and 2.90 ERA—his fourth straight season with an ERA under 3.00—but just eight saves."

Foulke finished with at least 10 saves if memory serves me right. Foulke, Osuna, and Marte all had triple-digit saves last year.

Triple digit saves? I think you mean double digit saves...either that or I really missed a lot of games last year...

czalgosz
03-03-2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
The problem with this interpretation, I think, is that Foulke agreed with the "demotion" at the time. I think he had lost confidence in himself and didn't want to be closing games. Shortly thereafter, however, I think he was back to his old self and was the Sox' best option at closer. I think Manuel probably should have re-instated him in that role; however, at that point the season was already lost and Marte and Osuna were doing well, too. It did make some sense to see how those guys could perform in that role at that time. If the Sox had not traded Foulke and he was still with the Sox, I would have been mucho pissed if he hadn't been re-instated as the closer for '03.

I think that by the end of last season, KW had already made up his mind to trade Foulke. It was probably a matter of seeing who else could do the job.

Foulke You
03-03-2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
I think that by the end of last season, KW had already made up his mind to trade Foulke. It was probably a matter of seeing who else could do the job.

Exactly! They most certainly had their minds made up. The Sox had their minds made up about getting rid of Foulke the day he demanded a competitive closer salary and then had to take the Sox to arbitration to win the money he deserved. Nobody shakes JR by the ankles until his change falls out and gets away with it. It was the winning arbitration case that sealed Foulke's fate, they simply had to wait for the right time to deal him without fan reprisal.

Ventura23Fan
03-03-2003, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
I think that by the end of last season, KW had already made up his mind to trade Foulke. It was probably a matter of seeing who else could do the job.

If his mind was made up at that point, wouldn't it make sense to put Foulke back in the closer role to get some saves and increase his value? It would also make sense if he intended to have either Marte or Osuna close this season, but he obviously didn't since we now have Koch. This drove me crazy last year.

czalgosz
03-03-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Ventura23Fan
If his mind was made up at that point, wouldn't it make sense to put Foulke back in the closer role to get some saves and increase his value? It would also make sense if he intended to have either Marte or Osuna close this season, but he obviously didn't since we now have Koch. This drove me crazy last year.

Well, probably he didn't know he'd be trading Foulke for another closer.