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ssang
02-24-2003, 01:00 PM
:angry: I know I lot of you still have a love affair with Frank but in my opinion, and many others too, he's a pathetic person. I say he has some nerve in saying that he has "a lifestyle to maintain" and that the Sox reducing his salary for the season is "a slap in the face." Since when is it tough to adjust to $5 million in one year!?!? How dare he say such a thing.

I also find it comical that he keeps bringing up his production for the past 12 years. If Frank thinks he should earn more money because of things he accomplished in years past, then he's an idiot. Does Rickey Henderson come out and demand $25 million dollars a season because he is the all-time steals, runs, and walks leader? I mean he stole 130 bases in like 1980 or something. My point here is that Frank may at one point have been worth a top tier salary but today he obviously is not.

Frank is lucky that Reisdorf even gave him the 5 mil for this season alone. VERY LUCKY. I think there is a reason no other major league team wanted to sign him. Frank is a lot closer to being washed up than h is to being a star again. I'm not going to even touch on the fact that he is whining about Konerko's comments and stuff that happened 6 months ago.

Bottom Line: Frank Thomas deserves to be booed by all Sox fans. AND FOR ANYONE THAT WANTS TO DEFEND HIM, do you all think that he was putting up MVP numbers for the White Sox and the fans? No way. Frank was playing for himself. He wanted the stats and the money that goes along with stardom. He is no better than Sosa.

I am officialy finished cheering for Frank Thomas. He deserves no respect from fans, the media, and now....even major league pitchers.

I still love the Sox, but Frank Thomas is a selfish man who deserves all the boos he can get.

What do you all think?

PaleHoseGeorge
02-24-2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by ssang
:angry: ...I am officialy finished cheering for Frank Thomas. He deserves no respect from fans, the media, and now....even major league pitchers.

I still love the Sox, but Frank Thomas is a selfish man who deserves all the boos he can get.

What do you all think?

What do I think? I'm glad you asked.

I think at best you're being simplistic in your assessment of Frank Thomas. I think at worst you are simply trolling.

:)

FanOf14
02-24-2003, 01:07 PM
One of my problems with Thomas is his inability to know when to rant and if he is going to rant, how to relate it to the press without sounding like a sniveling crybaby.

I have one question for the Thomas supporters' here...if those words came out of Sosa's mouth, everyone would be ripping him a new one here, but since they came out of Thomas' mouth, everyone is saying that the press is twisting his words and he has every right to pop off to the media about crap in the past.

All in all, I hope he shuts up, I hope Konerko doesn't feel the need to retort and they both show up when the season starts.

Hangar18
02-24-2003, 01:08 PM
IM a bit disturbed by Thomas' comments. most of them have been twisted around by the media. For now, I wont join the Anti Frank Club....We Need Him bad this year to step up. Think this will all work out in his favor. Once they start winning, and he starts hitting, everybody will be all Smiles. The guy is down, and I dont know if I want to kick the guy while hes down.

Kilroy
02-24-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by ssang
:angry: I know I lot of you still have a love affair with Frank but in my opinion, and many others too, he's a pathetic person. I say he has some nerve in saying that he has "a lifestyle to maintain" and that the Sox reducing his salary for the season is "a slap in the face." Since when is it tough to adjust to $5 million in one year!?!? How dare he say such a thing.

Just do me a favor and recognize that there was a short but important statement by Frank that followed that lifestyle comment that went something like this: "But, I have to earn that". Try and remember that. Also recognize that you might have a tough time adjusting to $30K a year this year, if you made $60K last year, and that there's a whole lot of people in the world who'd give an arm or a leg for the $30K. Its a matter of perspective.


Originally posted by FanOf14
I have one question for the Thomas supporters' here...if those words came out of Sosa's mouth, everyone would be ripping him a new one here, but since they came out of Thomas' mouth, everyone is saying that the press is twisting his words and he has every right to pop off to the media about crap in the past.

Honestly, I don't think you asked a question. But assuming it was "Would I rip Sosa for saying those things?" the answer is "No". If he said exactly what Thomas said, which was that he'd have to earn it, no. I would not rip Sosa for saying that.

joecrede
02-24-2003, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by ssang
:
Bottom Line: Frank Thomas deserves to be booed by all Sox fans. AND FOR ANYONE THAT WANTS TO DEFEND HIM, do you all think that he was putting up MVP numbers for the White Sox and the fans? No way. Frank was playing for himself. He wanted the stats and the money that goes along with stardom.


You have got to be kidding, right? Of course, Frank was putting up MVP numbers for the fans. I don't see how you can even debate that.

WinningUgly!
02-24-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14


All in all, I hope he shuts up, I hope Konerko doesn't feel the need to retort and they both show up when the season starts.

He already did... (http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0223/1513346.html)
"I never imagined that I would be answering questions about this coming into the spring,'' Konerko said. "I thought it was done.''

It seemed to be, until Thomas rehashed the subject Saturday, using phrases like "professional jealousy'' and insisting that Konerko had no clue of what was going on.

But Konerko said he and Thomas were ready to forget about the controversy after the two had a talk during a team workout early Sunday.

"I don't even remember who initiated it,'' Konerko said. "It wasn't like it was some debate or formal talk. It was like two guys shooting the breeze.

"We both said, 'Let's get past this and start playing ball.'''

Asked if Thomas' rant on Saturday camp could set a negative tone for the start of the season, Konerko didn't seem very concerned about any lingering impact on team chemistry.

"He's a good person,'' Konerko said of Thomas. "A good person can do things like that. I've done things like that and I'm a good person. That's part of his personality. That's what makes him great; he's driven.''

Konerko also implored reporters to drop the topic.

"I'm not a good enough player to be focusing on this,'' he said. "I've got to focus on the field. For everyone's good, can this be it -- please?''

FanOf14
02-24-2003, 02:12 PM
I hope Thomas can get that same attititude of get over it and focus on the field.

joecrede
02-24-2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
One of my problems with Thomas is his inability to know when to rant and if he is going to rant, how to relate it to the press without sounding like a sniveling crybaby.


I hear this as a criticism of Thomas from a lot of people and I don't understand it. It's not so much that he may be a whiner, but DAMN HIM TO HELL FOR NOT HAVING THE ABILITY NOT TO SOUND LIKE ONE.

kermittheefrog
02-24-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by ssang
:angry: I know I lot of you still have a love affair with Frank but in my opinion, and many others too, he's a pathetic person. I say he has some nerve in saying that he has "a lifestyle to maintain" and that the Sox reducing his salary for the season is "a slap in the face." Since when is it tough to adjust to $5 million in one year!?!? How dare he say such a thing.

I also find it comical that he keeps bringing up his production for the past 12 years. If Frank thinks he should earn more money because of things he accomplished in years past, then he's an idiot. Does Rickey Henderson come out and demand $25 million dollars a season because he is the all-time steals, runs, and walks leader? I mean he stole 130 bases in like 1980 or something. My point here is that Frank may at one point have been worth a top tier salary but today he obviously is not.

Frank is lucky that Reisdorf even gave him the 5 mil for this season alone. VERY LUCKY. I think there is a reason no other major league team wanted to sign him. Frank is a lot closer to being washed up than h is to being a star again. I'm not going to even touch on the fact that he is whining about Konerko's comments and stuff that happened 6 months ago.

Bottom Line: Frank Thomas deserves to be booed by all Sox fans. AND FOR ANYONE THAT WANTS TO DEFEND HIM, do you all think that he was putting up MVP numbers for the White Sox and the fans? No way. Frank was playing for himself. He wanted the stats and the money that goes along with stardom. He is no better than Sosa.

I am officialy finished cheering for Frank Thomas. He deserves no respect from fans, the media, and now....even major league pitchers.

I still love the Sox, but Frank Thomas is a selfish man who deserves all the boos he can get.

What do you all think?

I agree! We should all be as mindless as this man!

Cheryl
02-24-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by ssang


What do you all think?

I think you just got added to my ignore list.

FanOf14
02-24-2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I hear this as a criticism of Thomas from a lot of people and I don't understand it. It's not so much that he may be a whiner, but DAMN HIM TO HELL FOR NOT HAVING THE ABILITY NOT TO SOUND LIKE ONE.

I think you've been dippin' into the kool-aid or something. Fans that I have talked to since the Saturday spout have said they same thing. Any time he opens his mouth, he sounds (and in fact is) whining about something or another. I really couldn't care less what comes out of his pie hole as long as he shows up from game one to game one hundred sixty two.

duke of dorwood
02-24-2003, 02:19 PM
He's the greatest hitter in team history.

TheBigHurt
02-24-2003, 02:25 PM
IF YOU want to join a anti-frank thomas club you are in the anti- white sox club.......many of white sox fans became sox fans becuase of him

ssang
02-24-2003, 02:29 PM
I'm receiving the answers that I expected for the most part. I just don't get why we HAVE to like Frank Thomas as Sox fans. I think he has constantly proved that his agenda is to do things that are in his best interests and not the team. And all of this whining and complaining is cming from a guy who has had bad season 4 out of the last 5 years. I was a big Frank Thomas fan back before I knew what kind of a person he was, or at least has become. I cannot support him as an athlete.

Nellie_Fox
02-24-2003, 02:34 PM
Just how does anyone figure it helps the team to boo anyone on the team? Do you really think that Frank Thomas, with all his personal pride, isn't trying? Do you think that somehow booing him will help him be motivated more?

The only thing that booing Frank can possibly accomplish is to get him pressing. But then, that would make some of you happy, because you need for Frank to do badly to justify your dislike and namecalling. If he does well, you'll look like an idiot.

hold2dibber
02-24-2003, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by ssang
:angry: I know I lot of you still have a love affair with Frank but in my opinion, and many others too, he's a pathetic person. I say he has some nerve in saying that he has "a lifestyle to maintain" and that the Sox reducing his salary for the season is "a slap in the face." Since when is it tough to adjust to $5 million in one year!?!? How dare he say such a thing.

I also find it comical that he keeps bringing up his production for the past 12 years. If Frank thinks he should earn more money because of things he accomplished in years past, then he's an idiot. Does Rickey Henderson come out and demand $25 million dollars a season because he is the all-time steals, runs, and walks leader? I mean he stole 130 bases in like 1980 or something. My point here is that Frank may at one point have been worth a top tier salary but today he obviously is not.

Frank is lucky that Reisdorf even gave him the 5 mil for this season alone. VERY LUCKY. I think there is a reason no other major league team wanted to sign him. Frank is a lot closer to being washed up than h is to being a star again. I'm not going to even touch on the fact that he is whining about Konerko's comments and stuff that happened 6 months ago.

Bottom Line: Frank Thomas deserves to be booed by all Sox fans. AND FOR ANYONE THAT WANTS TO DEFEND HIM, do you all think that he was putting up MVP numbers for the White Sox and the fans? No way. Frank was playing for himself. He wanted the stats and the money that goes along with stardom. He is no better than Sosa.

I am officialy finished cheering for Frank Thomas. He deserves no respect from fans, the media, and now....even major league pitchers.

I still love the Sox, but Frank Thomas is a selfish man who deserves all the boos he can get.

What do you all think?

I think you're overreacting. I don't know what Frank is really like as a teammate or a person. He does come off very poorly in the press and has an amazing ability to stick his foot in his mouth. He apparently will never learn.

But to suggest that, because he sticks his foot in his mouth with the press, that he should be booed at home by White Sox fans, is offensive. If he had ripped the fans, then I'd be happy with Sox fans ripping him. If there was reason to believe he was not giving his best effort, than I'd have no problem with the fans ripping him.

But to boo him because he's a whiner, is ridiculous. He is, without a doubt, one of the great players in team history. He has given Sox fans BY FAR more to cheer about than any player of the last 15 years and, arguably, since some of the great players of the '50s and '60s hung 'em up.

If I hear Sox fans booing Frank Thomas this year, I'll do the same thing I did last year when confronted with such behavior - I'll asked them politely to shut the hell up.

p.s. If you think any MLB players play "for the fans," you're living in la la land. MLB players play: (1) for the money and/or (2) for the love of the game. Very, very, very, very few play "for the fans."

TheBigHurt
02-24-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
He's the greatest hitter in team history.

yeah and its a joke that some of you are ripping him

baggio202
02-24-2003, 02:42 PM
last month at WSI it was bash the **** out of mark buehrle and lets boo him..this month its frank thomas..which sox superstar gets this dubious honor next month????

TheBigHurt
02-24-2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Cheryl


I think you just got added to my ignore list. (in response to the idiot that started this thread)

lol cheryl


Originally posted by ssang
I cannot support him as an athlete.

well i am not asking you, neither is anyone else

pearso66
02-24-2003, 02:54 PM
I'm suprised nobody mentioned it, but I heard from this interview that he wants to win a ring so he can put the icing on the cake for his career. I dont know, but that sounds like a person who would rather win than hit 3 homer's in a game. Anyone that would rather win, and wants to win, i want on my team, especially if he is the caliber of Frank Thomas. Yes he has his lapses, yes he struggles at times at the plate, but doesn't everyone? I would have to say that nobody is perfect.

And on the concept of his $5 mil this year. He'll be doing a lot more for the white sox this year, than A-rod will for the Rangers for his $25 mil this year. They aren't going anywhere

FanOf14
02-24-2003, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by pearso66
And on the concept of his $5 mil this year. He'll be doing a lot more for the white sox this year, than A-rod will for the Rangers for his $25 mil this year. They aren't going anywhere

In this economic climate, him even mentioning anything close to sounding like he thinks he is getting ripped off at $5 million a year needs a serious slapping. Be happy you have work, be happy it pays as well and be happy that the members of his family are healthy. Now go out and bring us a WS instead of more negative press.

MetalliSox
02-24-2003, 03:01 PM
Since the free agent market began, in the 70's maybe?, who has shown more loyalty to the Sox than Frank Thomas? He has never hesitated to re-sign here. This past off season, the only reason he tested the FA market was because of the contract.
Guys have been chased away by management, but they still left. Frank played a whole year with a golf ball sized corn in his foot, which we never hear about anymore. Yet we still hear about 2001 and how some people think he was babying is injury even though he couldn't lift a bat.
He is a bad guy because he doesn't talk to the media, yet when he does and answers their questions, he's still a jerk.

Frank can't win.

Do I think he is a stroke, yes, but not to th extent some people think.

hold2dibber
02-24-2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by ssang
I'm receiving the answers that I expected for the most part. I just don't get why we HAVE to like Frank Thomas as Sox fans. I think he has constantly proved that his agenda is to do things that are in his best interests and not the team. And all of this whining and complaining is cming from a guy who has had bad season 4 out of the last 5 years. I was a big Frank Thomas fan back before I knew what kind of a person he was, or at least has become. I cannot support him as an athlete.

A few points:

(1) If Frank's repeated idiotic comments to the press make you dislike him or have rendered you unable to support him as an athlete, so be it. But don't boo him. His on-the-field accomplishments alone should be enough to prevent any Sox fan from doing so, even if you think he's a jackass as a person. More importantly, as Nellie rightly points out, if you're interested in seeing the Sox do well, it is simply counterproductive to boo him (unless you think he's not giving effort) because it will, IMHO, his performance will suffer.

(2) You say Frank has had 4 bad seasons in the last 5. I'm going to ignore '01, since he only had 68 at bats. Over the other 4 years he has averaged 29 HRs, 105 RBIs, a .288 avg. and a .398 OBP. If you think those numbers are "bad" than you must think Carlos Lee, Jose Valentin and Paul Konerko really suck. Again, your reaction is a product of the impossibly high bar Frank set during his first 8 years in the league, when he was better with the stick than anyone since Ted Williams.

NewyorkSoxFan
02-24-2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Just do me a favor and recognize that there was a short but important statement by Frank that followed that lifestyle comment that went something like this: "But, I have to earn that". Try and remember that. Also recognize that you might have a tough time adjusting to $30K a year this year, if you made $60K last year, and that there's a whole lot of people in the world who'd give an arm or a leg for the $30K. Its a matter of perspective.




Honestly, I don't think you asked a question. But assuming it was "Would I rip Sosa for saying those things?" the answer is "No". If he said exactly what Thomas said, which was that he'd have to earn it, no. I would not rip Sosa for saying that.


Of course you wouldn't. :D:

NewyorkSoxFan
02-24-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by TheBigHurt
(in response to the idiot that started this thread)

lol cheryl




well i am not asking you, neither is anyone else

You know what is most disappointing about comments like this is that this guy gives his opinion and he gets ripped like this. You can be a Sox fan and not like one of its current players. Frank T. has been a great hitter in team history, but if he was that great of a teammate why don't they (former teammates) come to his defense? You never hear Robin or Jack or any other player say anything other than "that's just how Frank is". He has been a tool, but we put up with him because he has produced on the field.

Dennis Rodman was an idiot and we hated him with the pistons, but when he became a bull we put up with him despite us all knowing he was a malcontent. I am not comparing the antics of the two but our allegiance to our hometown athletes.

But it's not cool to rip him because he doesn't blindly support Frank Thomas and has an original thought that most of you disagree with. I don't care what Frank does, but I would like him to shut up and hit. He was born to do it.


NYSF

longshot7
02-24-2003, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
Do I think he is a stroke, yes, but not to th extent some people think.

A stroke? What are you talking about?

hold2dibber
02-24-2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by TheBigHurt
(in response to the idiot that started this thread)

lol cheryl


Uncalled for.

hold2dibber
02-24-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
A few points:

You say Frank has had 4 bad seasons in the last 5. I'm going to ignore '01, since he only had 68 at bats. Over the other 4 years he has averaged 29 HRs, 105 RBIs, a .288 avg. and a .398 OBP. If you think those numbers are "bad" than you must think Carlos Lee, Jose Valentin and Paul Konerko really suck. Again, your reaction is a product of the impossibly high bar Frank set during his first 8 years in the league, when he was better with the stick than anyone since Ted Williams.

By the way, even if you take out the huge year he had in '00 and only look at Frank's "down years" of '98, '99 and '02, over those 3 years he averaged 24 HRs, 93 RBIs, a .274 avg., and a .385 OBP. Not all-star caliber, but I'm guessing that still puts him among the top 2 or 3 DHs in the game over those 3 years combined.

Wanne
02-24-2003, 03:27 PM
I think most are in agreement here about Frank just going out and doing his job and keeping his mouth shut. He's never quite understood the politics of the media and when to say something...or nothing at all. Somebody shoulda hired Frank a PR person a long time ago and told him that no matters what happens....just smile and keep your mouth shut. I'm not saying you gotta walk around like Stuart Smally or something....and it's ok to be pissed after a bad at bat. Just quit poutin' and move on. Put on a happy face and do your frickin' job.

ssang
02-24-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan

But it's not cool to rip him because he doesn't blindly support Frank Thomas and has an original thought that most of you disagree with. I don't care what Frank does, but I would like him to shut up and hit. He was born to do it.


NYSF

Thank you. I've been through this before on the board with my comments on Frank so I wasn't surprised by the backlash on this board. But you said it. It's just my opinion and I think it's very valid.

On the notion of booing Frank, on second thought I guess it wouldn't do the team any good to flat out boo Frank. So instead of booing him, I just won't cheer for him.

joecrede
02-24-2003, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
In this economic climate, him even mentioning anything close to sounding like he thinks he is getting ripped off at $5 million a year needs a serious slapping. Be happy you have work, be happy it pays as well and be happy that the members of his family are healthy. Now go out and bring us a WS instead of more negative press.

Konerko's making ~40% more than him this year. That might be what "the slap in the face" comment refers to.

34 Inch Stick
02-24-2003, 03:34 PM
NYSF, I don't think showing allegiance to Frank would be considered "blindly" following him. The man has produced as no single player has in my entire lifetime. He has earned some slack. Even Konerko acknowleges this.

The man is the greatest hitter any of us have been able to see on a regular basis, ever. I will not boo him no matter how far he falls.

The person I would nominate for booing next month.....Hmmmm. Let's see. It is March and only one meaningfull game will be played in the month. We are playing KC so the pitchers probably will not suck. I think we should boo Aaron Rowand because he will only be getting back to 100% after his winter stupidity. Who is with me on Booing Rowand in March?

Hangar18
02-24-2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by ssang
Thank you. I've been through this before on the board with my comments on Frank so I wasn't surprised by the backlash on this board. But you said it. It's just my opinion and I think it's very valid.

On the notion of booing Frank, on second thought I guess it wouldn't do the team any good to flat out boo Frank. So instead of booing him, I just won't cheer for him.

Heh Heh...man ssang, you caught hell for that. At least you can say you brought up Something that Sparked Discussion! keep posting, noone will ever agree with you.....but thats what I love about these Discussions.

Hangar18
02-24-2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Konerko's making ~40% more than him this year. That might be what "the slap in the face" comment refers to.

Yeah, but Konerko and Thomas are making 98% more than I am.

dllrbll7
02-24-2003, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Yeah, but Konerko and Thomas are making 98% more than I am.

Hangar if thomas and frank are only makin 98% more than you i think you need to make a donating to my allstar ticket fund. Because if he was just only making a million dollars you would be making about $500 grand. So if they are making 98% more than you please share the wealth.

Juan Pizarro
02-24-2003, 04:20 PM
I posted this line of thought on another thread, and it's been alluded to above.

Let's just say that Frank gets off to a great start and the club does as well. I'm betting the spin will be that Frank "cleared the air" in spring training, the same interpretation that was put on the Manuel-Frank blowup of 2000.

Yeah, Frank is Frank, and he doesn't know when to shut up. That said, it DOESN'T MATTER if he produces. If he gets on base from .380-.400, walks 100 times, scores 100, drives in 100, does it matter why? He's doing it for the White Sox, the only team he's ever played for.

If this is the way he fuels his fire -- by seeing slights and reacting strongly to them -- well, then, man, more power to you (although it'd be nice if you kept it out of the press)! It's worked for him before, to a level we've NEVER seem from a Sox hitter.

It is funny that Thomas can't win. If he doesn't talk, he's a tool. If he talks, he confirms that he's a tool.

Me, I'm betting that Hrniak+shape+anger = monster year. But I'm a Sox fan. I can't help myself.

You guys that want to boo him just on principle, do me a favor. Just do it from the bar stool at Jimbo's and give a kid your ticket so he can see the best White Sox hitter who ever was. :gulp:

HawkDJ
02-24-2003, 04:38 PM
I just don't understand why Frank would decide to talk to the media and then when he finds out the media is pulling out only the negatives he is SHOCKED. I'm not sure how old he is but he still has some growing up to do appearantly. Of course the media is going to take the negative stuff, that's their job. He should've just kept quiet because right now he is distracting all the great stuff thats going on in camp right now.

34rancher
02-24-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by dllrbll7
Hangar if thomas and frank are only makin 98% more than you i think you need to make a donating to my allstar ticket fund. Because if he was just only making a million dollars you would be making about $500 grand. So if they are making 98% more than you please share the wealth.
:hawk
"I Luv it when you analyze"

I need some of Hanger's money too. $2,525,253 is a lot of cash. (This is what you make if Frank only makes 98% more than you). But if you made 2% of what he does, you would make $100,000. Ain't stats wonderful? I knew that being a math major would pay off.

Iguana775
02-24-2003, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
What do I think? I'm glad you asked.

I think at best you're being simplistic in your assessment of Frank Thomas. I think at worst you are simply trolling.

:)

definantly agree. Frank is the BEST hitter ever for the sox. I mean, come one people. Just because the guy has brain farts every now and again, doesnt mean you have to burn him at the stake.

A question to the people that hate Thomas...would you want Ted Williams on your team? He wasnt all too popular with the fans but yet is considered to be one of the best, if not THE best, hitter of all time. I would gladly welcome him in a sox uni.

Hangar18
02-24-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by dllrbll7
Hangar if thomas and frank are only makin 98% more than you i think you need to make a donating to my allstar ticket fund. Because if he was just only making a million dollars you would be making about $500 grand. So if they are making 98% more than you please share the wealth.

Well, the Mercedes did get a Flat today....
the Caviar I had for lunch was terrible too... heh heh

Iguana775
02-24-2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick

The man is the greatest hitter any of us have been able to see on a regular basis, ever.

Let's not forget the 2 MVP's.

dllrbll7
02-24-2003, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Well, the Mercedes did get a Flat today....
the Caviar I had for lunch was terrible too... heh heh

You dont have those run flat tires? Now i really know you arent that millionaire unless you just left the mercedes on the side of the road and went to the dealer and bought a new one instead of hassling around with puttin the spare on.

Jjav829
02-24-2003, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by TheBigHurt
IF YOU want to join a anti-frank thomas club you are in the anti- white sox club.......many of white sox fans became sox fans becuase of him

O give me a break. Im not joining the Anti-Frank club (but if there is an anti-members of the Frank Thomas ass licking society club I'll join that :smile: ) but to say that your anti-white sox because you don't like Frank is idiotic. Does this apply to everyone? What about all the Royce Clayton bashing that became so popular last year? How about the Josh Paul/Aaron Rowand/Carlos Lee/etc. bashing? No one has to root for Frank Thomas just because they're a Sox fan.

TheBigHurt
02-24-2003, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by Iguana775
Let's not forget the 2 MVP's.

no we wont and a couple votes from 3 mvp's

soxguy
02-24-2003, 08:36 PM
listen......booing frank is a dis-service to the rest of the guys on this TEAM that you do like and support. Frank thomas is an athelete and ultimately I dont care what he thinks or feels as long as he performs. personally I believe frank is going to have a monster year, I prefer a frank that has a chip on his shoulder to one that is satisfied and content. I support the Sox team, as long as a player wants to win and tries his best then i support those players on the team, my time is too important to even care what words come out of his mouth. Whitesox fans.....every team has a window, however small, and i believe this may be our best shot in years, GET OUT THERE AND SUPPORT THIS TEAM!

Daver
02-24-2003, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
How about the Josh Paul/Aaron Rowand/Carlos Lee/etc. bashing?

Are you confusing criticism with bashing on this point?

Two of the three players you mention there have not convinced a lot of people,including "experts" that they actually belong on a major league roster,and the third has yet to live up to his projected potential,to compare the three of them to one of the best hitters in MLB history doesn't really support your argument.

And for anyone that doubts what I say about best hitters in MLB history I suggest you take a long hard squint at his numbers.

TheBigHurt
02-24-2003, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by soxguy
listen......booing frank is a dis-service to the rest of the guys on this TEAM that you do like and support. Frank thomas is an athelete and ultimately I dont care what he thinks or feels as long as he performs. personally I believe frank is going to have a monster year, I prefer a frank that has a chip on his shoulder to one that is satisfied and content. I support the Sox team, as long as a player wants to win and tries his best then i support those players on the team, my time is too important to even care what words come out of his mouth. Whitesox fans.....every team has a window, however small, and i believe this may be our best shot in years, GET OUT THERE AND SUPPORT THIS TEAM!
thats what i like to hear

see you guys should listen to him he has a valid point....this is our best shot since the 94 strike yr and it also Might be our best shot for a while so we dont want to blow it....we are a "small market team" lol....to have a shot is something we should thank...be happy we are not the tigers or royals or brew crew or any other sorry a** team

so go to comiskey and cheer....ill just have to cheer in yankee stadium or make a plane trip whatever floats my boat

and jjav i like your point but its weird to not like your top 5 player on your team now and in history

LATES

Jjav829
02-24-2003, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by daver
Are you confusing criticism with bashing on this point?

Two of the three players you mention there have not convinced a lot of people,including "experts" that they actually belong on a major league roster,and the third has yet to live up to his projected potential,to compare the three of them to one of the best hitters in MLB history doesn't really support your argument.

And for anyone that doubts what I say about best hitters in MLB history I suggest you take a long hard squint at his numbers.

Im only refering to TheBigHurt's comment in which hes basically saying that if your against a certain Sox player, then your Anti-Sox. I don't know, maybe I am confusing criticism with bashing. Im not talking about Frank's numbers or how good of a player he is. Im just disputing the point that because you're against a Sox player that your somehow against the Sox.

Jjav829
02-24-2003, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by TheBigHurt
thats what i like to hear


and jjav i like your point but its weird to not like your top 5 player on your team now and in history

LATES

Im not saying I dislike Frank. Im just saying that you don't have to like all the players on the Sox. If someone doesn't like Frank that doesn't mean they're not as much of a Sox fan as someone who likes Frank.

TheBigHurt
02-24-2003, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Im only refering to TheBigHurt's comment in which hes basically saying that if your against a certain Sox player, then your Anti-Sox. I don't know, maybe I am confusing criticism with bashing. Im not talking about Frank's numbers or how good of a player he is. Im just disputing the point that because you're against a Sox player that your somehow against the Sox.

well ya know what, you are right but i am trying to say- its very strange to be anti-hurt when he is arguably the sox's best player ever

LATES

bc2k
02-24-2003, 11:11 PM
I think the younger posters don't appreciate Thomas as much as the older posters do. We youngins have heard about these "Ted Williams" numbers Frank puts up, but we were too young to see him at this peak.

I, for example - while have always been a White Sox fan - didn't start following the team religiously until the start of the 2000 season.

I believe there are two reasons why Frank is more disliked by the younger Sox fans than older. We have never seen his "glory years" and since we've only seen one dominant year from him (2000), there is no loyalty.

I also think that many of the older posters who have seen his "glory years" over-appreciate him. Many are too quick to defend him by writing excuse after excuse that I don't even think the posters themselves believe.

I'm trying to place myself in the middle now and not let the good or bad parts of his past cloud my current and future thinking of the player. From this point on, I will let Frank's play dictate how I feel about him. If he has a return to glory in 2003 I'll praise him, but if he has another 2002 season, his history won't buy him another free pass. There comes a point where we fans have to blame the man for a 0-9 playoff performance and series ending error, and not shift the blame to the shadows or for not being comfortable playing the game of BASEBALL IN THE DAY.

So consider me in the anti-excuse, neutral Frank club.

Bmr31
02-25-2003, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by ssang
I'm receiving the answers that I expected for the most part. I just don't get why we HAVE to like Frank Thomas as Sox fans. I think he has constantly proved that his agenda is to do things that are in his best interests and not the team. And all of this whining and complaining is cming from a guy who has had bad season 4 out of the last 5 years. I was a big Frank Thomas fan back before I knew what kind of a person he was, or at least has become. I cannot support him as an athlete.

I can answer this for you. Frank has some MAJOR, and i mean MAJOR issues. Still, every single time he comes to bat, or goes to the field, I am going to be rooting for him. Why? I am a whitesox fan!

Bmr31
02-25-2003, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
What do I think? I'm glad you asked.

I think at best you're being simplistic in your assessment of Frank Thomas. I think at worst you are simply trolling.

:)

Thats not a fair response. This is his opinion, and I think its fair to say he has some points. He is not a troll, for not liking a person like Frank Thomas.

TRL
02-25-2003, 01:13 AM
A White Sox is a White Sox is a White Sox.

I don't care who it is on this team, if you are a fan why would you not root for someone? I can't say I was real fond of Albert Belle, but I still wanted him to do well for the Sox. Thomas has done a lot of things for the club. It's too bad that sports are a "what have you done for me lately" world, but that's the way it is.

And on the money issue...I get tired of people talking about what players make. It is simple economics...they get what they get because someone is willing to pay it. If everyone could go out and win 2 MVPs, we all would be making that kind of money. Think about what you make and your lifestyle. No matter what you make, if you take a pay cut you're not going to be happy about it. A person who makes $5 million a year probably has a $5 million a year lifestyle, just the same as a person who makes $50,000 a year has a $50,000 a year lifestyle.

If you have a problem with the economics of baseball, don't ever ask for a rase, don't ever change jobs, and for God's sake don't ever bitch about what you get paid. No matter who you are there is someone out there making less than you, and would probably give anything to be in your shoes.

Kilroy
02-25-2003, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
I think the younger posters don't appreciate Thomas as much as the older posters do. We youngins have heard about these "Ted Williams" numbers Frank puts up, but we were too young to see him at this peak.

Well since you don't know, let some of us who remember explain it to you.

Before '98, Frank was so damn good, you simply could not miss an at-bat. Whatever room you were in, you would leave and go to the tv. If you were outside, you came inside to see. If you were making love to your wife with the tv on, you stopped for each pitch.

He was absolutely amazing. He'd get hits on pitches where most hitters wouldn't even offer, and if they did, they wouldn't even get a foul tip.

People say he was great in 2000, and he was. But he was better before 1998. I think we may see 2000 Frank again. But I don't know if we'll ever see 1991-1997 Frank again.

hold2dibber
02-25-2003, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
I think the younger posters don't appreciate Thomas as much as the older posters do. We youngins have heard about these "Ted Williams" numbers Frank puts up, but we were too young to see him at this peak.

I, for example - while have always been a White Sox fan - didn't start following the team religiously until the start of the 2000 season.

I believe there are two reasons why Frank is more disliked by the younger Sox fans than older. We have never seen his "glory years" and since we've only seen one dominant year from him (2000), there is no loyalty.

I also think that many of the older posters who have seen his "glory years" over-appreciate him. Many are too quick to defend him by writing excuse after excuse that I don't even think the posters themselves believe.

I'm trying to place myself in the middle now and not let the good or bad parts of his past cloud my current and future thinking of the player. From this point on, I will let Frank's play dictate how I feel about him. If he has a return to glory in 2003 I'll praise him, but if he has another 2002 season, his history won't buy him another free pass. There comes a point where we fans have to blame the man for a 0-9 playoff performance and series ending error, and not shift the blame to the shadows or for not being comfortable playing the game of BASEBALL IN THE DAY.

So consider me in the anti-excuse, neutral Frank club.

Outside of the context of this board, the most fervent anti-Frank Sox fans I know are fans who are in their late '40s or older.

harwar
02-25-2003, 09:32 AM
Most of BiG FRANK's comments were taken out of context.If they ran every question & answer,i believe his comments' wouldn't look so bad.I've been around a long time and Frank Thomas is one of the best pure hitters i've ever seen.He has some emotional problems hes' had to deal with.I think he got it all out the other day after holding it in for quite some time.Hopefully,that will be it and the media will let the White Sox concentrate on playing ball.Frank looks to be in great shape and is concentrating on spraying line-drives around the outfield.The homeruns will come if he keeps that up.I look for him to have a monster year.Anyone who advocates booing Big Frank is doing a great disservice to all White Sox fans,as that can only help to ruin what may be a great year for us all.
Keep all the crap in the clubhouse and lets PLAY BALL!!!

34 Inch Stick
02-25-2003, 10:51 AM
Kilroy does not speak for all of us.

If Frank came up while I was making love I would not stop. I would simply turn her towards the T.V. and insist on doggy style. :o: That way everybody got what they wanted. :D:

The real problem was when I asked her to pass the chips.

Cheryl
02-25-2003, 11:27 AM
I love the stuff about Ted Williams numbers. Mr. Williams was roundly disliked by the Boston media and some of the fans as well.

Dan H
02-25-2003, 11:37 AM
All I can say is this is the year Thomas needs to step up. He can't use a layoff or injury as an excuse. This is supposed to be a great year for the Sox. Does he want to be a part of that or not? Yes, the media has been unfair to him, but he has brought a lot of grief on himself. He needs to grow up. Meanwhile, he should focus on bring a World Series to Chicago. Not just a division title or wild card berth. A World Series.

Mammoo
02-25-2003, 11:40 AM
Frank Thomas has demonstrated the inability to communicate effectively with the public. He's one of these guys who would be well served by keeping his mouth shut.

He really is better off boycotting the press because he has nothing compelling to say. The only time he creates interest is when he goes off the deep end.

I suggest we judge him by his actions on the field. If he does well, give him the accolades he deserves. Why boo him just because he's a lousy public speaker?

doublem23
02-25-2003, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Im only refering to TheBigHurt's comment in which hes basically saying that if your against a certain Sox player, then your Anti-Sox. I don't know, maybe I am confusing criticism with bashing. Im not talking about Frank's numbers or how good of a player he is. Im just disputing the point that because you're against a Sox player that your somehow against the Sox.

I see your point, but we're not dealing with "a certain Sox player." We're dealing with Frank Thomas.

MikeKreevich
02-25-2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Outside of the context of this board, the most fervent anti-Frank Sox fans I know are fans who are in their late '40s or older.

I believe that those who are considered anti-Frank or labeled as (someone who doesn't like Frank), are really just disappointed in Frank. We really wan't Frank to be perfect and have a great attitude, be a team player and a leader. We all hope he has a great year and we have fears that he is unhappy and that might impact his play.
Well, our Big Frank is a human being with imperfections just like all of us. Watch Frank this year and also recall what you have seen him do in the past. Someday, years from now, you will tell stories about one of the greatest hitters you ever saw.

oldcomiskey
02-25-2003, 09:01 PM
Jesus H Christ-----some of you sound like Mariotti...if Magglio and Manos and Konerko are the keeper of the flame then Frank bulit the fire

oldcomiskey
02-25-2003, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by ssang
I'm receiving the answers that I expected for the most part. I just don't get why we HAVE to like Frank Thomas as Sox fans. I think he has constantly proved that his agenda is to do things that are in his best interests and not the team. And all of this whining and complaining is cming from a guy who has had bad season 4 out of the last 5 years. I was a big Frank Thomas fan back before I knew what kind of a person he was, or at least has become. I cannot support him as an athlete.

OH PLEASE!!!--thats like a fan of Waylon Jennings not liking him anymore because he was an tailhole---and yes he was

Dadawg_77
02-25-2003, 11:21 PM
Has there ever been a truly great Athlete that wasn't self absorbed ego maniac? It is almost like you need that to succeed at the highest of high levels in sports.

I grew up watching Greg Walker at first base, but then came Frank. IMHO, when Frank retires he will be thought as the greatest White Sox ever.

bc2k
02-25-2003, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
Jesus H Christ-----some of you sound like Mariotti...if Magglio and Manos and Konerko are the keeper of the flame then Frank bulit the fire

Calling everyone else Mariotti when you're posting fluff? Frank is not the franchise, there's almost 100 years of White Sox baseball that precedes Frank Thomas.

Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Has there ever been a truly great Athlete that wasn't self absorbed ego maniac? It is almost like you need that to succeed at the highest of high levels in sports.

Brian Urlacher, Bobby Hull, Mike Singletary, Walter Payton, Carlton Fisk, MAGGLIO ORDONEZ, Theo Fleury - kidding. And that's just Chicago.

Egomaniac superstars may far outnumber level-headed superstars, but it doesn't mean Frank's attitude should just be accepted. Although, maybe you're not talking about Thomas since truly great athletes don't hit .250.

Originally posted by Dadawg_77

I grew up watching Greg Walker at first base, but then came Frank. IMHO, when Frank retires he will be thought as the greatest White Sox ever.

Joe Jackson, career .340 average.
Sox hits leader: Luke Appling (2,749).
And that's not including the pitchers.

AMestan
02-26-2003, 01:15 AM
I agree.

Frank can't keep his mouth shut. He's his own worst enemy. I want Frank to do well for the sake of the team. I could care less about his lifestyle. I don't know how anyone could be sympathetic toward Frank. If Sosa cried as much as Frank we would have a field day. Frank has dug his own grave. If he wants to be treated like a superstar he should start playing and acting like one. Frank is the biggest crybaby on the team (maybe number two in Chicago behind Wirtz). The next time Frank visits Yankee Stadium he should check out the monuments. Mickey Mantle's simply says "A Great Teammate". Not bad for a guy who won a Triple Crown, nine World Series Rings, a couple of Gold Gloves, four Home Run Titles, some MVP's and eighteen clutch Home Runs in October. Played through serious injuries the majority of his career and never cried in public.

I have to be fair to Frank. Mickey did care about his lifestyle. A bottle of Ballentine and a shot of V.O.

Frank needs to shut up.

doublem23
02-26-2003, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
IMHO, when Frank retires he will be thought as the greatest White Sox ever.

Without a doubt.

Dadawg_77
02-26-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Brian Urlacher, Bobby Hull, Mike Singletary, Walter Payton, Carlton Fisk, MAGGLIO ORDONEZ, Theo Fleury - kidding. And that's just Chicago.

Egomaniac superstars may far outnumber level-headed superstars, but it doesn't mean Frank's attitude should just be accepted. Although, maybe you're not talking about Thomas since truly great athletes don't hit .250.


LOL, your last line is really stretching it, Frank had one bad year coming off of an injury. Frank's career OPS is still over 1.0, he still leads all active players with career OBP (9 in history) (even after Bond's past two seasons and the fact he is right handed), he is ninth in active players slugging % (17 in history), fourth in OPS for active players (number 2 in Adjusted OPS) (10 in history). . He could go down as the greatest right handed hitter in the history of the game. He won the MVP two times and it should have been three. Point is, IMHO that reflects one greatest of the great baseball players.

Bobby Hull is an egomaniac, just didn't play it out in the media. While I love them,Fisk, Mags, Urlacher, Singletary and they are great players, they are not truly the greatest of the great. Mags and Urlacher maybe some day, but not yet. Payton maybe one, but I would bet he was an egomaniac, just didn't make it to the press. To be that good you need complete and total confidence, which is having an Ego, just these guys could back it up. You can't have the thought of failure in your head and achieve what the greats have.

doublem23
02-26-2003, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
There comes a point where we fans have to blame the man for a 0-9 playoff performance and series ending error, and not shift the blame to the shadows or for not being comfortable playing the game of BASEBALL IN THE DAY.

Oh please... Blaming Frank for losing the ALDS to Seattle is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard of.

Kilroy
02-26-2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
There comes a point where we fans have to blame the man for a 0-9 playoff performance and series ending error, and not shift the blame to the shadows or for not being comfortable playing the game of BASEBALL IN THE DAY.

Blame Frank?

What about Konerko (0-9) ?

Or Mags (2-11) ?

Or Lee (1-11) ?

Or Durham (2-10) ?

No one exactly picking anyone up that series, were they?

ssang
02-26-2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
He could go down as the greatest right handed hitter in the history of the game. He won the MVP two times and it should have been three. Point is, IMHO that reflects one greatest of the great baseball players.



No chance Frank goes down as the greatest right handed hitter of all-time. No chance! Maybe 5 years ago he was on pace, and that's a maybe. But now, he hasn't a prayer. He WAS great. Now, if you combine his poor attitude and relationship with teammates, his constant bitching, and his sub-par hitting (he looked really sad while lunging pitches), Frank Thomas hurts the White Sox more than he helps them. I say the love affair with Frank should end. I really appreciate his early 90's production but his glory days are gone.

Dadawg_77
02-26-2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by ssang
No chance Frank goes down as the greatest right handed hitter of all-time. No chance! Maybe 5 years ago he was on pace, and that's a maybe. But now, he hasn't a prayer. He WAS great. Now, if you combine his poor attitude and relationship with teammates, his constant bitching, and his sub-par hitting (he looked really sad while lunging pitches), Frank Thomas hurts the White Sox more than he helps them. I say the love affair with Frank should end. I really appreciate his early 90's production but his glory days are gone.

Greatness is built on careers not one year wonders or one year flops. Frank has had one hell of a career. There are only couple of names I would think of that could challenge Frank for the greatest right handed hitters title. 5 years ago wasn't a maybe, he was.

joecrede
02-26-2003, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by ssang
No chance Frank goes down as the greatest right handed hitter of all-time. No chance! Maybe 5 years ago he was on pace, and that's a maybe. But now, he hasn't a prayer. He WAS great. Now, if you combine his poor attitude and relationship with teammates, his constant bitching, and his sub-par hitting (he looked really sad while lunging pitches), Frank Thomas hurts the White Sox more than he helps them.

Sub-par hitting?

Let's look at Adjusted OPS+ (On Base + Slugging Percentage, where 100 is average)

Konerko 123
Thomas 117

Why do we accept "sub-par" offensive years from Konerko and not Thomas?

gosox41
02-26-2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Sub-par hitting?

Let's look at Adjusted OPS+ (On Base + Slugging Percentage, where 100 is average)

Konerko 123
Thomas 117

Why do we accept "sub-par" offensive years from Konerko and not Thomas?


This proves my point. Back when the Sox exercised Frank's diminshed skills cost I was saying that if Frank stays with the Sox then the Sox should look to trade Konerko for pitching (obviously this was Pre-Colon).

Well Frank is back and the Sox have re-signed Konerko for 3 yers at an average of $8 mill. Frank's contract doesn't pay that much if he performs at the current level and it's over more time (isn't he in the worse case scenario guaranteed $22 mill over 4 years?)

So now who is the overpaid player? The Sox should have sold high and dumped Konerko when they had the chance and knew Frank was going to be back no matter what.

The thing is I think Frank has a lot more upside potential then Paulie over the next 3-4 years. This is not to say he will be the Frank of 93-94 but I can definitely see him having a hgiher OPS then Paul.


Bob

maurice
02-26-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Back when the Sox exercised Frank's diminshed skills cost I was saying that if Frank stays with the Sox then the Sox should look to trade Konerko for pitching (obviously this was Pre-Colon).

They still may trade him, especially in light of the Daubach signing. They're both around .850 OPS first-basemen . . . plus Daubach bats lefty.

Besides, if the Sox don't think LTP can handle CF, either Konerko or Lee is gone in the next year anyway.

bc2k
02-26-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by doublem23


Oh please... Blaming Frank for losing the ALDS to Seattle is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard of.


Originally posted by Kilroy


Blame Frank?

What about Konerko (0-9) ?

Or Mags (2-11) ?

Or Lee (1-11) ?

Or Durham (2-10) ?

No one exactly picking anyone up that series, were they?


I did not blame Frank Thomas for the ALDS loss. I blamed Frank Thomas for playing horribly.

Kilroy
02-26-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I did not blame Frank Thomas for the ALDS loss. I blamed Frank Thomas for playing horribly.

That's fine, but you seemed to be pretty selective in dishing out that blame. There was a whole team full of White Sox playing like crap...

czalgosz
02-26-2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by ssang
No chance Frank goes down as the greatest right handed hitter of all-time. No chance! Maybe 5 years ago he was on pace, and that's a maybe. But now, he hasn't a prayer. He WAS great. Now, if you combine his poor attitude and relationship with teammates, his constant bitching, and his sub-par hitting (he looked really sad while lunging pitches), Frank Thomas hurts the White Sox more than he helps them. I say the love affair with Frank should end. I really appreciate his early 90's production but his glory days are gone.

5 years ago he was the best hitter in all of baseball, and probably the best right-handed hitter of all time.

Even now, after his off-years, he still compares favorably to Hank Greenberg and Jeff Bagwell, the two that I think have the best argument for best righty hitter ever. Am I forgetting someone?

PaleHoseGeorge
02-26-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
That's fine, but you seemed to be pretty selective in dishing out that blame. There was a whole team full of White Sox playing like crap...

This where I draw the line, too. The Sox got swept in the '00 playoffs because they couldn't hit. There was plenty of blame to go around for that state of affairs. It was a team effort.

As for advocating booing Frank Thomas, and stating so on a Sox message board, well,...

guillen4life13
02-26-2003, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Joe Jackson, career .340 average.
Sox hits leader: Luke Appling (2,749).
And that's not including the pitchers.

Joe Jackson and Luke Appling didn't have to face the same type of pitching that Frank has had to face. I think that almost all of you will agree that as time has passed, pitching has become more complex. There are more trick moving pitches than there ever were (splitters weren't around, and I'm sure there are other pitches that have been developed since Applings time, let alone Jackson's time). As far as I know, baseball back in the early 1900's consisted of fastballs, curves, and changeups. I don't think they even had sliders back then. It's pretty biased against Frank to compare him to those guys. If Frank played in the time of Jackson, I think that his career average would be in the .350-.360 range.

joecrede
02-26-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by maurice
They still may trade him, especially in light of the Daubach signing. They're both around .850 OPS first-basemen . . . plus Daubach bats lefty.

The market for first basemen is a tough one. Who'd have thought Daubach would have to settle for a minor league deal? So I think Konerko's contract means we're stuck with him, which wouldn't be the worst thing if he improves, but I just don't see that happening.

Besides, if the Sox don't think LTP can handle CF, either Konerko or Lee is gone in the next year anyway.

I really, really, hope that they give EVERY opportunity for Borchard to remain in center. It increases his value so much. Besides, center in The Cell isn't a huge one.

maurice
02-26-2003, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Joe Jackson...didn't have to face the same type of pitching that Frank has had to face....There are more trick moving pitches than there ever were....

:?:

Ave. AL ERA in 2002: 4.46.

Ave. AL ERA in 1917: 2.66.

Joe Jackson played during the "dead ball era" and had to face legal spit ball pitchers. His teammate Ed Cicotte led the AL with a mere 1.53 ERA in 1917, largely due to his famed "shine ball."

Hurt's a great hitter, but there's no need to overstate his case.

hold2dibber
02-26-2003, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
The market for first basemen is a tough one. Who'd have thought Daubach would have to settle for a minor league deal? So I think Konerko's contract means we're stuck with him, which wouldn't be the worst thing if he improves, but I just don't see that happening.

If Konerko continues hitting for the next 4-5 years like he has the last two, I certainly won't complain. But I do hold out hope that he will improve, based upon his ferocious first half last year and the fact that he was hampered by injury in the 2nd half. I'm hoping his 1st half (injury free) is the new Konerko standard output.

I really, really, hope that they give EVERY opportunity for Borchard to remain in center. It increases his value so much.
Besides, center in The Cell isn't a huge one.

Amen!

czalgosz
02-26-2003, 06:30 PM
Well, if Borchard's in center, then I hope that someone besides Lee's in left. Otherwise, there will be a lot of doubles dropping in there.

I want to see Borchard succeed in center, but not at the cost of destroying the outfield defense.

Daver
02-26-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Well, if Borchard's in center, then I hope that someone besides Lee's in left. Otherwise, there will be a lot of doubles dropping in there.

I want to see Borchard succeed in center, but not at the cost of destroying the outfield defense.

Based on the games I saw Joe play in center last Sept. I would say he is better defensively than Rowand,so are you saying that you are more comfortable with Rowand playing next to Lee?

idseer
02-26-2003, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
5 years ago he was the best hitter in all of baseball, and probably the best right-handed hitter of all time.

Even now, after his off-years, he still compares favorably to Hank Greenberg and Jeff Bagwell, the two that I think have the best argument for best righty hitter ever. Am I forgetting someone?

just curious .... did you ever hear of hank aaron?

joecrede
02-26-2003, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Well, if Borchard's in center, then I hope that someone besides Lee's in left. Otherwise, there will be a lot of doubles dropping in there.

I want to see Borchard succeed in center, but not at the cost of destroying the outfield defense.

Lee's defense was greatly improved last year to the point where I don't consider it a liability anymore, but I do share your concern about Borchard's range. I guess it's hard to believe a guy that big can play center effectively.

czalgosz
02-26-2003, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by daver
Based on the games I saw Joe play in center last Sept. I would say he is better defensively than Rowand,so are you saying that you are more comfortable with Rowand playing next to Lee?

I don't like Rowand either. I want a real centerfielder.

My opinion is that the poor outfield defense is a big reason for the Sox' pitching woes the past couple seasons.

And I did forget that Aaron was a righty. My bad.

Aaron always gets overlooked, and I don't know why. His numbers are all the more impressive when you consider that he was playing in an era dominated by great pitching. He's one of the few players that I wish I was born early enough to see.

EDIT: But at his peak, you could argue that Thomas was as good a hitter as Aaron. He just didn't do it for as long. Also, Aaron brought defense and speed to his game, which Thomas never did.

idseer
02-26-2003, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by idseer
just curious .... did you ever hear of hank aaron?

in fact, after refreshing my memory at the hof, how about al simmons, joe dimaggio, rogers hornsby, harmon killebrew, willie mays or frank robinson?

i'd say all these guys were better righty hitter than thomas. some better hitters ... some better sluggers ... some better at both ... but all over-all better.

thomas is great but not nearly the greatest right handed hitter.

Daver
02-26-2003, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by joecrede


Lee's defense was greatly improved last year to the point where I don't consider it a liability anymore, but I do share your concern about Borchard's range. I guess it's hard to believe a guy that big can play center effectively.

What would you consider to be more important,the range to get to a ball that you misplayed off the bat or playing it right the first time every time? Not to mention the ability to make a good accurate throw from deep CF.



Originally posted by czalogsz

I don't like Rowand either. I want a real centerfielder.

My opinion is that the poor outfield defense is a big reason for the Sox' pitching woes the past couple seasons.


If you are going to talk about poor outfeild defense you better include Magglio Ordonez,because Borchard will be a better outfielder than he is.

czalgosz
02-26-2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by daver

If you are going to talk about poor outfeild defense you better include Magglio Ordonez,because Borchard will be a better outfielder than he is.

I wouldn't want Magglio Ordonez in center either.


Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I like centerfielders who have good range.

Daver
02-26-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
I wouldn't want Magglio Ordonez in center either.


Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I like centerfielders who have good range.

Borchard does have good range,he lacks the great range of a Griffey Jr.,but his is good enough to a better than average defensive CFer.

czalgosz
02-26-2003, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by daver
Borchard does have good range,he lacks the great range of a Griffey Jr.,but his is good enough to a better than average defensive CFer.

If that's the case, then great! I haven't seen enough of him to really make a good judgment myself, but every scouting report I've read on him touts his arm, but disparages his range.

joecrede
02-26-2003, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by idseer
in fact, after refreshing my memory at the hof, how about al simmons, joe dimaggio, rogers hornsby, harmon killebrew, willie mays or frank robinson?

i'd say all these guys were better righty hitter than thomas. some better hitters ... some better sluggers ... some better at both ... but all over-all better.

thomas is great but not nearly the greatest right handed hitter.

Hornsby, Mays, and Aaron were better hitters than Thomas. DiMaggio, Robinson, Killebrew, and Simmons were not.

czalgosz
02-26-2003, 07:29 PM
Okay, I didn't do a lot of research on this, I admit. But the fact that we're putting Thomas on a list with Aaron, Mays, and Hornsby should tell you something.

bc2k
02-26-2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


That's fine, but you seemed to be pretty selective in dishing out that blame. There was a whole team full of White Sox playing like crap...


Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


This where I draw the line, too. The Sox got swept in the '00 playoffs because they couldn't hit. There was plenty of blame to go around for that state of affairs. It was a team effort.

As for advocating booing Frank Thomas, and stating so on a Sox message board, well,...


As I previously stated, I don't solely blame Thomas for the ALDS loss. I do blame Frank Thomas for Frank Thomas's play in the ALDS.

idseer
02-26-2003, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Okay, I didn't do a lot of research on this, I admit. But the fact that we're putting Thomas on a list with Aaron, Mays, and Hornsby should tell you something.

very good point. i'd say the only thing he lacks is longevity. mainly his career rbi's fall way short of hof numbers.

TheBigHurt
02-26-2003, 11:31 PM
Simply put anyone that wants to join the Anti-Hurt club go ahead...no one is stopping you

:tomatoaward

gosox41
02-27-2003, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
If Konerko continues hitting for the next 4-5 years like he has the last two, I certainly won't complain. But I do hold out hope that he will improve, based upon his ferocious first half last year and the fact that he was hampered by injury in the 2nd half. I'm hoping his 1st half (injury free) is the new Konerko standard output.



Amen!


Does anyone know what Paul's and Franks's OPS were last year? I know had a higher one, but I thought they were close and not siginificantly different.

The reason I ask is because people mock Frank for hitting .252. but if he had a higher OBP then Paul then the average doesn't matter as much. As for slugging %, I thought they were close.

If people are going to rip Frank for being overpaid then they seriously need to realize that Paulie's on the field performance isn't that much higher and yet he's making more money. I guess a lot of people don't read into the #'s and just look at BA, RBI's and HR's.

Bob

Dadawg_77
02-27-2003, 08:25 AM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPSplus_career.shtml


Man you guys are forgeting about Jimmy Foxx. That guy never gets much love. Also McGwire is up there to.

Dadawg_77
02-27-2003, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Does anyone know what Paul's and Franks's OPS were last year? I know had a higher one, but I thought they were close and not siginificantly different.

The reason I ask is because people mock Frank for hitting .252. but if he had a higher OBP then Paul then the average doesn't matter as much. As for slugging %, I thought they were close.

If people are going to rip Frank for being overpaid then they seriously need to realize that Paulie's on the field performance isn't that much higher and yet he's making more money. I guess a lot of people don't read into the #'s and just look at BA, RBI's and HR's.

Bob


I believe they were within 10 points of each other.

WinningUgly!
02-27-2003, 10:11 AM
Frank's OBP was actually higher! If Konerko put up the numbers Frank did last season, the only negative talk about him would be that he needs to work on his average a bit.

KONERKO:
G-151 AB-570 R-81 H-173 HR-27 RBI-104 BB-44 SO-72 BA-.304 OBP-.359 SLG-.498 OPS-.857

THOMAS:
G-148 AB-523 R-77 H-132 HR-28 RBI-92 BB-88 SO-115 BA-.252 OBP-.361 SLG-.472 OPS-.834

Nellie_Fox
02-27-2003, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Also McGwire is up there to. Waaaaaaaaayyyyyyy too one dimensional to be in this discussion.

gosox41
02-27-2003, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Frank's OBP was actually higher! If Konerko put up the numbers Frank did last season, the only negative talk about him would be that he needs to work on his average a bit.

KONERKO:
G-151 AB-570 R-81 H-173 HR-27 RBI-104 BB-44 SO-72 BA-.304 OBP-.359 SLG-.498 OPS-.857

THOMAS:
G-148 AB-523 R-77 H-132 HR-28 RBI-92 BB-88 SO-115 BA-.252 OBP-.361 SLG-.472 OPS-.834



I wonder if fans are going to ever complain about how overpaid Konerko is. My guess is they won't but unless Paul improves hiss numbers, they're going to look awfully foolish complaining about Frank's #'s and not Paul's. They think Frank is overpaid at $5mill this season but are happy to throw another $3mill a year into a statistically equivalent player.

Bob


I knew the Sox should have traded Paul when they knew Frank was coming back.

joecrede
02-27-2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
I knew the Sox should have traded Paul when they knew Frank was coming back.

I'd have felt better if they gave Konerko's contract to Lee and let Konerko go to arbitration this year.

Looking at the market for first basemen, it's hard not to say that Konerko isn't drastically overpaid.

idseer
02-27-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I wonder if fans are going to ever complain about how overpaid Konerko is. My guess is they won't but unless Paul improves hiss numbers, they're going to look awfully foolish complaining about Frank's #'s and not Paul's. They think Frank is overpaid at $5mill this season but are happy to throw another $3mill a year into a statistically equivalent player.

Bob


I knew the Sox should have traded Paul when they knew Frank was coming back.

and if paul does .310 / 36 / 125 this year?
i mean hasn't he improved every year he's been here? wasn't he playing with an injury the last half of last seaon? why is everyone so anxious to get rid of this guy?

czalgosz
02-27-2003, 12:30 PM
I don't think anyone's anxious to get rid of Konerko, but it's looking more and more like the Sox might have to choose between keeping Konerko or keeping Lee for the long-term.

If Konerko breaks through in 2003, then great. But he's getting to the age when a breakthrough is less and less likely, so the Sox look like they are getting saddled with a league-average first baseman. The ease with which the Sox picked up Brian Daubach proves how easy those are to get.

I like Konerko, but he's not an irreplaceable part to this team.

hold2dibber
02-27-2003, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Frank's OBP was actually higher! If Konerko put up the numbers Frank did last season, the only negative talk about him would be that he needs to work on his average a bit.

KONERKO:
G-151 AB-570 R-81 H-173 HR-27 RBI-104 BB-44 SO-72 BA-.304 OBP-.359 SLG-.498 OPS-.857

THOMAS:
G-148 AB-523 R-77 H-132 HR-28 RBI-92 BB-88 SO-115 BA-.252 OBP-.361 SLG-.472 OPS-.834

Although I'm a Big Frank fan, and although I usually rely upon stats to judge players' performance, I think this is an instance in which the stats are somewhat misleading. Frank did end up okay, but the truth of the matter is, he was really badfor the few months in the middle of the summer when the Sox fell out of contention. Frank went on a tear over the last 6 weeks to get his numbers respectable, and that bodes well for this year, but he did it when the Sox were far out of contention and when he was facing watered down pitching due to the expansion of rosters. Despite the similarities in their final numbers, PK, IMHO, had a much better season than did Frank. But I'd call it a toss up as to who will do better in '03.

'02 OPS by month:

April: PK .949, Frank .850
May: PK .802, Frank .896
June: PK 1.151, Frank .637
July: PK .637, Frank .752
Aug: PK .896, Frank .729
Sep: PK .685, Frank 1.134

voodoochile
02-27-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by idseer
and if paul does .310 / 36 / 125 this year?
i mean hasn't he improved every year he's been here? wasn't he playing with an injury the last half of last seaon? why is everyone so anxious to get rid of this guy?

When it happens, everyone will be happy and jump up and down, but what if it doesn't?

Also, how come you are willing to give Konerko an injury status allowance for the end of last season, but not Frank for the first half when he was still finding his groove?

maurice
02-27-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by idseer
hasn't he improved every year he's been here?

No. Only his RBI production has steadily increased (along with the OBP of the guy hitting directly in front of him).

Year: AVE/OPS/HR/RBI
1999: .294/.863/24/81
2000: .298/.844/21/97
2001: .282/.856/32/99
2002: .304/.857/27/104

IMHO, Konerko looks like a guy who has leveled off around an .850 OPS, which is mediocre for an AL first-baseman and not really much better than Daubach (except in the all-important "salary" category).

I really wish he would take another step up and be the big HR guy everyone expected when he was in the Dodgers organization, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen at this point.

Jjav829
02-27-2003, 01:46 PM
LOL...this thread is now the Anti-Konerko thread. For all those wondering why people complain about Frank's numbers and praise Konerko for his numbers when they are near the same, I have one word...standards. In any sports you set standards for yourself. You are then held to those standards. This is why when a guy like Raul Ibanez goes for 24/103/.294/.883 it's a breakout season. Now if Barry Bonds put up those numbers it's a major disappointment. Frank Thomas has put up huge numbers in the past and hes held to these numbers. Paul Konerko drove in over 100 runs for the first time in his career last year, so it's a surprise. Frank is also 34 (soon 35) while Konerko is 26 (soon 27). Historically Frank is past his peak so it is feasible that he is declining. It's also possible that Konerko has not yet hit his peak so it's feasible that he will still improve.

There seems to be a disturbing trend starting among the big Frank Thomas fans that you have to dislike Paul Konerko because hes the guy making Frank look bad. I don't know if this is because these people feel there is no other way to defend Frank than to slam Konerko or what. It just seems odd. Has anyone else noticed this or am I reading into this too much?

czalgosz
02-27-2003, 01:56 PM
*sigh*... I don't dislike Paul Konerko. Frankly, I think that it's not even fair to Konerko to compare him to Thomas.

Last year (Konerko's age 26 season) -

.304/.359/.498

Thomas's age 26 season (a strike-shortened 1994 season) -

.353/.487/.729(!)

If Konerko hits .252/.361/.472 when he's 34, I'll be very surprised.

Hangar18
02-27-2003, 01:57 PM
I know one thing.....I like Paulie because the guy hits, and is one of the clubhouse leaders. Enough to put "14 Konerko" on the back of my road gray jersey

FanOf14
02-27-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I know one thing.....I like Paulie because the guy hits, and is one of the clubhouse leaders. Enough to put "14 Konerko" on the back of my road gray jersey

Mine is the alternate jersey - gotten a few compliments on it - even from a few of the Scrub fans that i work with! :D:

Dadawg_77
02-27-2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
LOL...this thread is now the Anti-Konerko thread. For all those wondering why people complain about Frank's numbers and praise Konerko for his numbers when they are near the same, I have one word...standards. In any sports you set standards for yourself. You are then held to those standards. This is why when a guy like Raul Ibanez goes for 24/103/.294/.883 it's a breakout season. Now if Barry Bonds put up those numbers it's a major disappointment. Frank Thomas has put up huge numbers in the past and hes held to these numbers. Paul Konerko drove in over 100 runs for the first time in his career last year, so it's a surprise. Frank is also 34 (soon 35) while Konerko is 26 (soon 27). Historically Frank is past his peak so it is feasible that he is declining. It's also possible that Konerko has not yet hit his peak so it's feasible that he will still improve.

There seems to be a disturbing trend starting among the big Frank Thomas fans that you have to dislike Paul Konerko because hes the guy making Frank look bad. I don't know if this is because these people feel there is no other way to defend Frank than to slam Konerko or what. It just seems odd. Has anyone else noticed this or am I reading into this too much?


True, but also if you are Bonds and have a bad year coming off of a major injury, you get some slack.

The thing with Paul vs Frank is just a comparison and showing that the standards Frank set for himself are skewing people view on Frank's value to the team. It isn't anti-Paul.

ssang
02-27-2003, 03:46 PM
This post had gotten off subject. Let's get back to the basics. Thomas has major attitude problems, a warped sense of reality, and his game is dwindling (his September stats were againstinferior pitching and the Sox were out of contention). Let's face it. Frank hurts us more than he helps us.

Let's spice things up: Who agrees with me when I say Frank even in 2000 when he was good again, has been a piss-poor clutch hitter?

I hope Frank plays well again for the sake of the team but IMHO he ain't helping this ballclub.

FanOf14
02-27-2003, 03:52 PM
How do you define clutch (I seem to remember a long thread about what does clutch mean, but I don't remember the consensus)?

gosox41
02-27-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
LOL...this thread is now the Anti-Konerko thread. For all those wondering why people complain about Frank's numbers and praise Konerko for his numbers when they are near the same, I have one word...standards. In any sports you set standards for yourself. You are then held to those standards. This is why when a guy like Raul Ibanez goes for 24/103/.294/.883 it's a breakout season. Now if Barry Bonds put up those numbers it's a major disappointment. Frank Thomas has put up huge numbers in the past and hes held to these numbers. Paul Konerko drove in over 100 runs for the first time in his career last year, so it's a surprise. Frank is also 34 (soon 35) while Konerko is 26 (soon 27). Historically Frank is past his peak so it is feasible that he is declining. It's also possible that Konerko has not yet hit his peak so it's feasible that he will still improve.

There seems to be a disturbing trend starting among the big Frank Thomas fans that you have to dislike Paul Konerko because hes the guy making Frank look bad. I don't know if this is because these people feel there is no other way to defend Frank than to slam Konerko or what. It just seems odd. Has anyone else noticed this or am I reading into this too much?


I see where you are going with standards, but then maybe these standards need to be used in the salary structure. Here's some numbers: PK $23.75 mill over 3 years FT: $22 mill guaranteed over 4 years. So based on this logic, a player needs to set a lower bar for himself and improve slightly on relaitve unimportant numbers year in and year out then a player who dominated a for a period and falls down to an average/slightly above average level.

People claim Frank is overpaid for his on the field performance, but then so is Konerko.

I am a big Frank Thomas fan and have nothing personal against Konerko. I hope he has a great year. But if you read some of my earlier posts from Oct./Nov. I was against signing Konerko for the very reason of his stats.

All I'm saying is that Frank and Paul need to be held to the same expectation. Just becuase Paul never performed at as a high level as Frank doesn't mean he isn't over paid. Also, there numbers are very similar. Frank was rusty/hurting the first half of the year and no one talks about this. But Paul hurts his foot and it's the sole reason he didn't have a break out year. Never mind the fact Paul's OPS has been consistent over the last 4 years.

Bob

czalgosz
02-27-2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
How do you define clutch (I seem to remember a long thread about what does clutch mean, but I don't remember the consensus)?

Being 'clutch' means that you think the player is good, but the numbers don't support that argument.

Not being 'clutch' means that you think the player is bad, but the numbers don't support that argument.

idseer
02-27-2003, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
When it happens, everyone will be happy and jump up and down, but what if it doesn't?

if it doesn't, it doesn't. i'm just looking at the trend and it seems to point up not down. i know there are no guarantees.

Also, how come you are willing to give Konerko an injury status allowance for the end of last season, but not Frank for the first half when he was still finding his groove?

voodoo, i just didn't buy it considering he'd had almost the whole season of 2001 AND the offseason to recover. but after seeing his comeback at the end of the season i admit i was probably wrong about the effect it had on him. it just took him a long time to recover. being so much younger, i am willing to give konerko a more likely chance to recover fully.
i was looking at thomas's age and size as a factor to suggest he might be turning a corner in his abilities(which i still do believe to an extent). frankly ... i'm glad i was wrong because i too, believe he's poised for a very big season.

joecrede
02-27-2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by ssang
This post had gotten off subject. Let's get back to the basics. Thomas has major attitude problems, a warped sense of reality, and his game is dwindling (his September stats were againstinferior pitching and the Sox were out of contention). Let's face it. Frank hurts us more than he helps us.

What are these major attitude problems (that effect the final score of games)?

Let's spice things up: Who agrees with me when I say Frank even in 2000 when he was good again, has been a piss-poor clutch hitter?

In the unlikely event this isn't a troll, what is your definition of "clutch hitter"?

ssang
02-27-2003, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by joecrede


In the unlikely event this isn't a troll, what is your definition of "clutch hitter"?

If you paid attention to my posts I'm not trolling. It's perfectly okay to dislike a certain player on your team. How about everyone with Royce Clayton last year? I just happen to dislike one of our best hitters in franchise history. IMHO Frank Thomas has become a piece of you know what, both as a player and as a person. THAT is why I have no more use for him.

Also, hypotheticaly, let's say Sammy Sosa made the same comments as Frank has recently......wouldn't you guys be going insane on him? This message board would have a field day. Now I hate Sammy as much as the next guy but I think that most Frank backers are being hypocritical on this subject. Think about it.

Crestani
02-27-2003, 05:10 PM
I think I will stand up and cheer louder now every time Frank comes to bat and try to drown out all of your boos!

You are probably the same guy who claimed Frank was better than Ted Williams or as good as Babe Ruth five years ago!

Quite Frankly I agree with Frank that he deserved better treatment from Manuel for the benching last year. I also believe Konerko was trying to make Frank look bad and make himself look better by going to a reporter when Frank showed up late during the pre-game warmup during that same time.

I am a long time Sox fan who never quits appreciating what a player has accomplished on the field. I could care less what he does and says off the field as long as he doesn't break the law, give un-sound advice to kids, or makes himself a bad example, (none of which Frank has done).

As far as the five million dollar statement is concerned, maybe I would feel the same way if I knew I was contibuting a lot more than players like Juan Gonzales and making millions less. Who are you to try and compare your wages to today's superstars?

voodoochile
02-27-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by idseer
voodoo, i just didn't buy it considering he'd had almost the whole season of 2001 AND the offseason to recover. but after seeing his comeback at the end of the season i admit i was probably wrong about the effect it had on him. it just took him a long time to recover. being so much younger, i am willing to give konerko a more likely chance to recover fully.
i was looking at thomas's age and size as a factor to suggest he might be turning a corner in his abilities(which i still do believe to an extent). frankly ... i'm glad i was wrong because i too, believe he's poised for a very big season.

The injury stuff goes back further than that. People refuse to acknowledge that Frank's injury in 1999 contibuted to his down year. They all want to rip the man for having an "off-season" and then ignore the walnut sized calcium deposit they took out of his ankle in September of that year - but sweet, lovable, team-leader, superstar Paulie gets a pass because he turned an ankle.

It's truly sad...

I am glad you think Frank is poised for a big year. I think so too and the fact that you and I agree on Frank is reason enough to be optimistic...

:D:

Also, hypotheticaly, let's say Sammy Sosa made the same comments as Frank has recently......wouldn't you guys be going insane on him? This message board would have a field day. Now I hate Sammy as much as the next guy but I think that most Frank backers are being hypocritical on this subject. Think about it.

And your point is? "OHMIGAWD! They ripped ShamMEMEMEMEMEMEME!!!" Hey, welcome to WSI. Most of us like Sox players (especially the greatest hitter in team history - read: Frank "The Big Hurt" Thomas) and dislike flubbie players (especially the biggest hotdog in any baseball team's history - read ShamME "I am the team" Sosa). Ripping on ShamME is expected, ripping on Frank is purely optional. You seem to have made it clear as to which player you prefer...

joecrede
02-27-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by ssang
If you paid attention to my posts I'm not trolling. It's perfectly okay to dislike a certain player on your team. How about everyone with Royce Clayton last year? I just happen to dislike one of our best hitters in franchise history. IMHO Frank Thomas has become a piece of you know what, both as a player and as a person. THAT is why I have no more use for him.

You can dislike whoever you want. I take issue with your reasoning that's all. You say Thomas has become a piece of crap professionally and personally. I don't know Thomas well enough to make a judgment on him personally, but as far as professionally goes you are dead wrong, -- unless you consider Konerko-like production as crappy. I certainly don't.

ssang
02-27-2003, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by Crestani
Who are you to try and compare your wages to today's superstars?

Uh, I never compared my wages to any ballplayer's salary. But no one should bitch about getting a pay cut to 5 million dollars. I find it hard to believe that he or anyone else simply cannot adjust to a 5 million dollar a year salary. Obviously, Frank doesn't want to have to adjust to that money, but if he can't than it's truly pathetic.

I mean, he's lucky to have that 5 million and he still has the audacity (sp?) to bitch about it!?!? UNREAL. No team wanted his servics (he's an aging DH who isn't getting any better) and Reinsdorf could've cut poor Frank down to $250,000 a year. Now he's bitching about making 5 mil!?! Also, it's his own fault that the contract even existed. HE signed it. If Thomas is to blame anyone it's either himself or his agent for signing such a heavy performance based contract. Bottom line is the Frank should be thanking his lucky stars for making 5 million this season.

How ya like me now?

Daver
02-27-2003, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by ssang
No team wanted his servics (he's an aging DH who isn't getting any better)

He had offers from the Dodgers,the Braves,and the Orioles,JR convinced Frank to stay with the White Sox,and went out of his way to deal with Frank and Arn Tellem personally.

Are you trying to put a value on what he is worth?

I would say he is worth whatever a team is willing to pay him,isn't that the true value of just about anything?

FanOf14
02-27-2003, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by Crestani
IQuite Frankly I agree with Frank that he deserved better treatment from Manuel for the benching last year. I also believe Konerko was trying to make Frank look bad and make himself look better by going to a reporter when Frank showed up late during the pre-game warmup during that same time.


Try the reports went to him not vice-versa. Why is it die-hard Thomas fans feel the need to cut on/blame Konerko? I heard the entire quote which was played during a game and A) it was no where near what people here (and other reporters for that matter) tried to make it and B) there were multiple reporters at his locker while he was gearing up for a game. Trying getting your facts straight beforing ripping on another player.

bc2k
02-27-2003, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by daver
He had offers from the Dodgers,the Braves,and the Orioles,JR convinced Frank to stay with the White Sox,and went out of his way to deal with Frank and Arn Tellem personally.

Are you trying to put a value on what he is worth?

I would say he is worth whatever a team is willing to pay him,isn't that the true value of just about anything?

Just because Frank talked to those teams does not mean he got written offers from them. Frank came back to the Sox like a whipped dog with his tail between his legs because he got more money from the Sox. He didn't come back here because he wants to stay on one team for his whole career. Read through that comment to his lifestyle comment. Frank doesn't care about the White Sox organization or his teammates and holds personal stats above team wins.

Read the stat book all day, but it won't show you as much as watching the game. Frank hit for Frank's numbers. Konerko hit for the team. This is where the discrepancy comes from. I wish there was a stat that showed how many times Paulie gave up an at bat to move over a runner. If he gave up just 10% of his at bats, add 10% to his power numbers. Then compare with Frankie.

Could it be that KW and JR watch the game and reward hitters who hit for the team? Is it that farfetched?

What is all this talk about the Sox only signing Konerko or Lee? Anybody remember the contract Frank signed? Hopefully - good year or not - the Sox will be free of Thomas after 2003 allowing us to keep the two players who will most help the TEAM.

Daver
02-27-2003, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Just because Frank talked to those teams does not mean he got written offers from them.



If you want to call Arn Tellem a liar that is up to you,I based that on quotes from the man himself.

bc2k
02-27-2003, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Just because Frank talked to those teams does not mean he got written offers from them. Frank came back to the Sox like a whipped dog with his tail between his legs because he got more money from the Sox. He didn't come back here because he wants to stay on one team for his whole career. Read through that comment to his lifestyle comment. Frank doesn't care about the White Sox organization or his teammates and holds personal stats above team wins.

Read the stat book all day, but it won't show you as much as watching the game. Frank hit for Frank's numbers. Konerko hit for the team. This is where the discrepancy comes from. I wish there was a stat that showed how many times Paulie gave up an at bat to move over a runner. If he gave up just 10% of his at bats, add 10% to his power numbers. Then compare with Frankie.

Could it be that KW and JR watch the game and reward hitters who hit for the team? Is it that farfetched?

What is all this talk about the Sox only signing Konerko or Lee? Anybody remember the contract Frank signed? Hopefully - good year or not - the Sox will be free of Thomas after 2003 allowing us to keep the two players who will most help the TEAM.

Great points bc2k.

I also question how out-of-town "fans" who see 30 games a year can accurately judge Sox players. Everybody has access to the stat book but everybody doesn't have FSN, WCIU, and WGN.

Nellie_Fox
02-27-2003, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Great points bc2k.

I also question how out-of-town "fans" who see 30 games a year can accurately judge Sox players. Everybody has access to the stat book but everybody doesn't have FSN, WCIU, and WGN. Am I losing your mind, or did you really just pat yourself on the back for making good points?

Okay, so those of us who don't see as many games as you are not in as good a position to judge whether Frank gives a damn about the White Sox. You can see his attitude toward the team if you watch enough games.

Give me a break. You have no damned idea whether Frank cares about the Sox.

joecrede
02-27-2003, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
Try the reports went to him not vice-versa. Why is it die-hard Thomas fans feel the need to cut on/blame Konerko? I heard the entire quote which was played during a game and A) it was no where near what people here (and other reporters for that matter) tried to make it and B) there were multiple reporters at his locker while he was gearing up for a game. Trying getting your facts straight beforing ripping on another player.

What did Konerko actually say? I only remember it being damning toward Thomas and thinking Konerko was a pretty lousy teammate for hanging Thomas out to dry like that in the media.

joecrede
02-27-2003, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Read the stat book all day, but it won't show you as much as watching the game. Frank hit for Frank's numbers. Konerko hit for the team. This is where the discrepancy comes from. I wish there was a stat that showed how many times Paulie gave up an at bat to move over a runner. If he gave up just 10% of his at bats, add 10% to his power numbers. Then compare with Frankie.

I don't know where to begin. I guess a good place to start would be to ask for proof that Thomas hits for Thomas and Konerko hits for the team.

Let's not make Konerko out to be something more than he is by excusing his outs. He's a league-average offensive player for a first baseman. Nothing wrong with that, but nothing worth the $23M he'll get over the next three years either.

Could it be that KW and JR watch the game and reward hitters who hit for the team? Is it that farfetched?

Konerko got his money because I believe they think he's going to get better, they overvalue leadership skills, and most importantly because they misread the market for first baseman of his caliber.

What is all this talk about the Sox only signing Konerko or Lee? Anybody remember the contract Frank signed? Hopefully - good year or not - the Sox will be free of Thomas after 2003 allowing us to keep the two players who will most help the TEAM.

Konerko's are replaceable. Period. It may well be that Thomas has entered the stage of his career where he is too, but I wouldn't bet the mortgage on it just yet.

idseer
02-27-2003, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by bc2k


Read the stat book all day, but it won't show you as much as watching the game. Frank hit for Frank's numbers. Konerko hit for the team. This is where the discrepancy comes from. I wish there was a stat that showed how many times Paulie gave up an at bat to move over a runner. If he gave up just 10% of his at bats, add 10% to his power numbers. Then compare with Frankie.



your arguments are so twisted it's ridiculous. MOST of the things you've said are absurd at best. the above quote is just one example.

you actually think konerko "gives up" some 60 at bats in a season (even at that you seem to hint he actually gives up more than that by saying "if he gave up JUST 10%" etc.)? then even worse you go on to assume that ALL of those ab's would be converted into power numbers if he hadn't.

if you can't be any more logical than this in your arguments i can't for the life of me figure out why anyone talks to you at all.

voodoochile
02-27-2003, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by bc2k


Great points bc2k.

I also question how out-of-town "fans" who see 30 games a year can accurately judge Sox players. Everybody has access to the stat book but everybody doesn't have FSN, WCIU, and WGN.


Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Am I losing your mind, or did you really just pat yourself on the back for making good points?

Okay, so those of us who don't see as many games as you are not in as good a position to judge whether Frank gives a damn about the White Sox. You can see his attitude toward the team if you watch enough games.

Give me a break. You have no damned idea whether Frank cares about the Sox.


I'd like an answer to the first part of Nellie's question. You patting yourself on the back, or did you forget to logout and log back in under a different screen name?

bc2k
02-27-2003, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I'd like an answer to the first part of Nellie's question. You patting yourself on the back, or did you forget to logout and log back in under a different screen name?

I thought it would be humorous for those who caught it. I don't post under any other screen name.

HaroldFan
02-28-2003, 08:20 AM
QUOTE]Originally posted by ssang


Let's spice things up: Who agrees with me when I say Frank even in 2000 when he was good again, has been a piss-poor clutch hitter?

[/QUOTE]

Frank Thomas in 2000:

Runners in scoring position: Ave. .377 OBP .507 Slg. .818 OPS 1.325

Scoring Position and 2 Outs: Ave. .344 OBP .481 Slg. 672 OPS 1.153

Against the Cleveland Indians (Remember them, the team the Sox needed to beat to win the division): Ave. .457 OBP .554 SLG .913 OPS 1.467

I wish the people who consistently attack Thomas for "selfishness", "hitting for himself", "not being a team player", etc. would explain to me what a person with a lifetime OBP of .432 needs to do to demonstrate he understands the concept of team play. Does anyone out there honestly believe that he couldn't have hit more home runs in his career if he had swung from his heels every at bat? Then if he's so selfish why didn't he? Have you seen any TV ads lately announcing "chicks dig on base percentage"? Do you think he's unaware of the glamor that surrounds hitting home runs? In 1991 idiots would call the Score screaming about Frank taking too many pitches when he should be swinging the bat but even at that age he understood that getting on base at a .450 clip in front of the no. 4 and 5 hitters wins more games than hitting a few more home runs. Last summer they were still calling and still saying the same things and still claiming it proved his "selfishness."

voodoochile
02-28-2003, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by HaroldFan
Frank Thomas in 2000:

Runners in scoring position: Ave. .377 OBP .507 Slg. .818 OPS 1.325

Scoring Position and 2 Outs: Ave. .344 OBP .481 Slg. 672 OPS 1.153

Against the Cleveland Indians (Remember them, the team the Sox needed to beat to win the division): Ave. .457 OBP .554 SLG .913 OPS 1.467

I wish the people who consistently attack Thomas for "selfishness", "hitting for himself", "not being a team player", etc. would explain to me what a person with a lifetime OBP of .432 needs to do to demonstrate he understands the concept of team play. Does anyone out there honestly believe that he couldn't have hit more home runs in his career if he had swung from his heels every at bat? Then if he's so selfish why didn't he? Have you seen any TV ads lately announcing "chicks dig on base percentage"? Do you think he's unaware of the glamor that surrounds hitting home runs? In 1991 idiots would call the Score screaming about Frank taking too many pitches when he should be swinging the bat but even at that age he understood that getting on base at a .450 clip in front of the no. 4 and 5 hitters wins more games than hitting a few more home runs. Last summer they were still calling and still saying the same things and still claiming it proved his "selfishness."

Hey, Welcome Aboard :)

I tracked down your first post, but decided to welcome you with this one, as I personally am a huge Frank Thomas fan. Thanks for smacking the haters down with facts...

hold2dibber
02-28-2003, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by HaroldFan
Have you seen any TV ads lately announcing "chicks dig on base percentage"?

LMAO! Thanks for the laugh - a very auspicious beginning. Welcome to the board.

gosox41
02-28-2003, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by ssang
If you paid attention to my posts I'm not trolling. It's perfectly okay to dislike a certain player on your team. How about everyone with Royce Clayton last year? I just happen to dislike one of our best hitters in franchise history. IMHO Frank Thomas has become a piece of you know what, both as a player and as a person. THAT is why I have no more use for him.

Also, hypotheticaly, let's say Sammy Sosa made the same comments as Frank has recently......wouldn't you guys be going insane on him? This message board would have a field day. Now I hate Sammy as much as the next guy but I think that most Frank backers are being hypocritical on this subject. Think about it.

If Sammy made the same comments as Frank then of course we'd be talking smack about him because he is a Cub. But the Cub fans wouldn't. They love him for what he's done. Whenver he does something egotistical (which is about everyday) Cub fans see it as Sammy being lovable Sammy.

The fact is Sammy is a lot more selfish of a player then Frank and comes off pretty bad in the media. Maybe not for what he says, but certainly for what he does. The media continuously promotes Sammy and puts up with his antics because he has that "lovable" personality and enjoys the limelight.

If I had to choose between Frank and Sammy based on personality only in a clubhouse, I would definitely pick Frank. Do you think all of Sammy's teammates love him?


Bob

gosox41
02-28-2003, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by daver
If you want to call Arn Tellem a liar that is up to you,I based that on quotes from the man himself.


Do you mean an agent would not srtretch the truth if it would help a client get a better offer soemwhere else? So there really was a team bidding against the Rangers for A-Rod. And Kenny Rogers is in what spring training camp right now?


Bob

Dadawg_77
02-28-2003, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
Read the stat book all day, but it won't show you as much as watching the game. Frank hit for Frank's numbers. Konerko hit for the team. This is where the discrepancy comes from. I wish there was a stat that showed how many times Paulie gave up an at bat to move over a runner. If he gave up just 10% of his at bats, add 10% to his power numbers. Then compare with Frankie.



Giving your self up is the biggest load of crap in baseball today, well depending on your level as a hitter. If you have the ability to it like Royce Clayton, yes give yourself up every time because that will be the most productive thing over the course of time. If you have the ability of a Frank or Mags never, and I mean never give up your at bat just to advance a runner. Over the season you will produce more runs swinging away not trying to hit a weak ground ball to second. Some parts of NL ball are old obsolete and just crappy tactics, just taking people forever to realize it.

fuzzy_patters
02-28-2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by HaroldFan
QUOTE]Originally posted by ssang


Let's spice things up: Who agrees with me when I say Frank even in 2000 when he was good again, has been a piss-poor clutch hitter?



Frank Thomas in 2000:

Runners in scoring position: Ave. .377 OBP .507 Slg. .818 OPS 1.325

Scoring Position and 2 Outs: Ave. .344 OBP .481 Slg. 672 OPS 1.153

Against the Cleveland Indians (Remember them, the team the Sox needed to beat to win the division): Ave. .457 OBP .554 SLG .913 OPS 1.467

I wish the people who consistently attack Thomas for "selfishness", "hitting for himself", "not being a team player", etc. would explain to me what a person with a lifetime OBP of .432 needs to do to demonstrate he understands the concept of team play. Does anyone out there honestly believe that he couldn't have hit more home runs in his career if he had swung from his heels every at bat? Then if he's so selfish why didn't he? Have you seen any TV ads lately announcing "chicks dig on base percentage"? Do you think he's unaware of the glamor that surrounds hitting home runs? In 1991 idiots would call the Score screaming about Frank taking too many pitches when he should be swinging the bat but even at that age he understood that getting on base at a .450 clip in front of the no. 4 and 5 hitters wins more games than hitting a few more home runs. Last summer they were still calling and still saying the same things and still claiming it proved his "selfishness." [/QUOTE]

I didn't think Frank was a very clutch hitter, either, but now that I see the numbers it looks like he is a clutch hitter. I think the reason many of us come down on Frank is that he is the best hitter on the team. We expect him to come through in big situations. The 60% of the time that he fails we getted mad at him because of what our expectations are. With a lesser player we don't get upset because we expect them to make outs sometimes. Sometimes perceptions about certain players can be misleading, and it appears this is one of those times.

ssang
03-06-2003, 07:10 PM
How's Frank been playin' this spring?

Lip Man 1
03-06-2003, 07:33 PM
This week's Sports Illustrated (with Kentucky's Cliff Hawkins on the cover) has a story on Thomas on page 80 with the headline "Doubting Thomas?...the White Sox did and Frank Thomas is motivated to prove them wrong."

Lip

Kilroy
03-07-2003, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
This week's Sports Illustrated (with Kentucky's Cliff Hawkins on the cover) has a story on Thomas on page 80 with the headline "Doubting Thomas?...the White Sox did and Frank Thomas is motivated to prove them wrong."

Lip

I still have the SI at my desk from spring 2K w/ Thomas on the cover with the caption "Never Question My Desire..."

History repeats itself?

bc2k
03-07-2003, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
I don't know where to begin. I guess a good place to start would be to ask for proof that Thomas hits for Thomas


Originally posted by HaroldFan
I wish the people who consistently attack Thomas for "selfishness", "hitting for himself", "not being a team player", etc. would explain to me what a person with a lifetime OBP of .432 needs to do to demonstrate he understands the concept of team play. Does anyone out there honestly believe that he couldn't have hit more home runs in his career if he had swung from his heels every at bat? Then if he's so selfish why didn't he? Have you seen any TV ads lately announcing "chicks dig on base percentage"? Do you think he's unaware of the glamor that surrounds hitting home runs?[/B]


Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Am I losing your mind, or did you really just pat yourself on the back for making good points?

Okay, so those of us who don't see as many games as you are not in as good a position to judge whether Frank gives a damn about the White Sox. You can see his attitude toward the team if you watch enough games.

Give me a break. You have no damned idea whether Frank cares about the Sox.

Hey guys, just thought you would find this quote in this weeks (March 10) Sports Illustrated interesting. It's from your blindly-defend-at-any-costs hero, Frank Thomas. "I've been trying to lead the league in homers the past few years instead of batting average."

There is your proof Joe Crede. There is your explanation HaroldFan, and puts your last four questions to shame. Frank was going for home runs, he just couldn't do it.

Nellie, great points indeed from bc2k. Could have I gotten a source any more reliable than from the home run hitter himself? Taken out of context isn't going to work this time, blindly defenders of Frank. You can only kill off grandma once each semester, time for a new excuse.

joecrede
03-07-2003, 03:20 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
Hey guys, just thought you would find this quote in this weeks (March 10) Sports Illustrated interesting. It's from your blindly-defend-at-any-costs hero, Frank Thomas. "I've been trying to lead the league in homers the past few years instead of batting average."

There is your proof Joe Crede. There is your explanation HaroldFan, and puts your last four questions to shame. Frank was going for home runs, he just couldn't do it.

Explain how attempting to lead the league in batting average is any less selfish than attempting to lead the league in home runs.

hold2dibber
03-07-2003, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
Hey guys, just thought you would find this quote in this weeks (March 10) Sports Illustrated interesting. It's from your blindly-defend-at-any-costs hero, Frank Thomas. "I've been trying to lead the league in homers the past few years instead of batting average."

There is your proof Joe Crede. There is your explanation HaroldFan, and puts your last four questions to shame. Frank was going for home runs, he just couldn't do it.

Nellie, great points indeed from bc2k. Could have I gotten a source any more reliable than from the home run hitter himself? Taken out of context isn't going to work this time, blindly defenders of Frank. You can only kill off grandma once each semester, time for a new excuse.

So I guess that means Buehrle is selfish for trying to lead the league in wins. Koch is selfish if he tries to lead the league in saves. Maggs is selfish if he tries to lead the league in RBIs. Give me a break.

I think it is STUPID that Frank has been trying to put up big home run numbers, but not necessarily selfish. You'll never hear me defend Frank's intelligence; but the suggestion that Frank somehow hurts the team by being "selfish" between the lines is pure conjecture.

FanOf14
03-07-2003, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
So I guess that means Buehrle is selfish for trying to lead the league in wins. Koch is selfish if he tries to lead the league in saves. Maggs is selfish if he tries to lead the league in RBIs. Give me a break.

I think it is STUPID that Frank has been trying to put up big home run numbers, but not necessarily selfish. You'll never hear me defend Frank's intelligence; but the suggestion that Frank somehow hurts the team by being "selfish" between the lines is pure conjecture.

OK, keeping in mind I that I am playing devil's advocate here, I have one question in regards to the several responses of the FT quote. Why is it okay that FT is hitting for the fences, but when Sammy does it he is the most selfish ass/jerk on two feet? Like I said, keep in mind that I am playing devil's advocate, so I am not putting any personal opinions in this at all, I just want to know what would the answer be to that...

hold2dibber
03-07-2003, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by FanOf14
OK, keeping in mind I that I am playing devil's advocate here, I have one question in regards to the several responses of the FT quote. Why is it okay that FT is hitting for the fences, but when Sammy does it he is the most selfish ass/jerk on two feet? Like I said, keep in mind that I am playing devil's advocate, so I am not putting any personal opinions in this at all, I just want to know what would the answer be to that...

A couple things. First, Frank said he was trying to lead the league in home runs, but that doesn't mean Frank was trying to hit a home run every single time. You can't take a quote like that and say "okay, that means Frank never tried to advance a runner or just get a base hit when that's all the Sox needed." It was a general statement and can't really be taken to mean that he was swinging for the fences every time, no matter the situation.

And like I said before, if Frank's focus over the last few years has been HRs, that pisses me off because it is so damn stupid. Frank - you were the best hitter of the generation for 8 years by being a line drive hitter? Why change your approach? Incredibly stupid.

FanOf14
03-07-2003, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
A couple things. First, Frank said he was trying to lead the league in home runs, but that doesn't mean Frank was trying to hit a home run every single time. You can't take a quote like that and say "okay, that means Frank never tried to advance a runner or just get a base hit when that's all the Sox needed." It was a general statement and can't really be taken to mean that he was swinging for the fences every time, no matter the situation.

And like I said before, if Frank's focus over the last few years has been HRs, that pisses me off because it is so damn stupid. Frank - you were the best hitter of the generation for 8 years by being a line drive hitter? Why change your approach? Incredibly stupid.

Good answer!

harwar
03-07-2003, 09:40 AM
What would be "incredibly stupid" would be to stand up on opening day and boo Frank Thomas.Maybe you could wait a few games before you start to voice your disapproval of this man.I mean,why would you,as a White Sox fan,want to do this?We all know that Frank is a head case and if all this booing starts right off the bat,then who knows what problems it may cause in the clubhouse.Personally,i hope that Frank gets off to a good start and that the team just keeps picking up momentum as they go thru to the all star break.After that,its a run for the pennant.

FanOf14
03-07-2003, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by ssang
On the notion of booing Frank, on second thought I guess it wouldn't do the team any good to flat out boo Frank. So instead of booing him, I just won't cheer for him.

harwar: FYI - this is a post by ssang (I think the second or third page of this thread) taking back the booing part. just figured at this point (6 pages later - lol!) that point needed reiterating. Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

bc2k
03-07-2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by joecrede


Explain how attempting to lead the league in batting average is any less selfish than attempting to lead the league in home runs.

Please don't make me post Frank's old stats when he wasn't trying to lead the league in home runs.


Originally posted by hold2dibber


So I guess that means Buehrle is selfish for trying to lead the league in wins. Koch is selfish if he tries to lead the league in saves. Maggs is selfish if he tries to lead the league in RBIs. Give me a break.

Buehrle, Maggs, and Koch do not put those personal numbers above team wins.


Originally posted by hold2dibber


A couple things. First, Frank said he was trying to lead the league in home runs, but that doesn't mean Frank was trying to hit a home run every single time. You can't take a quote like that and say "okay, that means Frank never tried to advance a runner or just get a base hit when that's all the Sox needed." It was a general statement and can't really be taken to mean that he was swinging for the fences every time, no matter the situation.

No matter how many times Frank did hit for the team, the fact is that he still admitted to doing the opposite. Put 2 and 2 together: Remember last season when Frank, (obsessed with his stats) kept justifying his season by saying how his power numbers are still respectable? I read the paper everyday and don't ever recall a Frank quote talking about catching the Twins. He is only concerned with himself and his personal stats.

And now he wants to play first base and weaken an already mediocre defensive team. Why? Because he's a gold glover who can help team defense? No, so he can showcase NL teams his "ability" to play first base so he can get a contract when he's a free agent next year.

Nobody sees this? Or have you yet to take the blindfolds off?

joecrede
03-07-2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Please don't make me post Frank's old stats when he wasn't trying to lead the league in home runs.

Now I get it, good year equates to team player, bad year to selfish player. Why didn't you simplify it like that in the begining of this debate?

Buehrle, Maggs, and Koch do not put those personal numbers above team wins.

You have no idea if this is a true statement. By your logic, the higher Buehrle's ERA goes the more selfish he gets.

No matter how many times Frank did hit for the team

Every time up. In fact, I am going to go on record here right now as saying there is no one In that clubhouse who is more team orientated than Thomas.

The Sox problem throughout his tenure here has been the team he has been sorrounded with -- and not him.

voodoochile
03-07-2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Please don't make me post Frank's old stats when he wasn't trying to lead the league in home runs.




Buehrle, Maggs, and Koch do not put those personal numbers above team wins.




No matter how many times Frank did hit for the team, the fact is that he still admitted to doing the opposite. Put 2 and 2 together: Remember last season when Frank, (obsessed with his stats) kept justifying his season by saying how his power numbers are still respectable? I read the paper everyday and don't ever recall a Frank quote talking about catching the Twins. He is only concerned with himself and his personal stats.

And now he wants to play first base and weaken an already mediocre defensive team. Why? Because he's a gold glover who can help team defense? No, so he can showcase NL teams his "ability" to play first base so he can get a contract when he's a free agent next year.

Nobody sees this? Or have you yet to take the blindfolds off?

Well, let's see. Frank only played 1.5 months of 2001, so it would be difficult to judge his performance that year. It is also true that he was taking a huge amount of flack in the press and the fans for his "low HR totals for a man his size" - something you have hammered on in the past also. Frank is responsive to and influenced by his critics? NO WAY...

Then there is last year when he played the whole year while still recovering from the "career threatening" injury he suffered in 2001. Anyone who won't acknowledge that he was in pain most of last year is wearing a blindfold of their own, IMO. Also that same pain made it hard for him to hit the way he has in the past so he tried to adapt his swing. He actually talked about this at times last year when he made comments about figuring out what the next phase of his hitting career would look like and "finding a new system that worked for him". So it isn't shocking that he was changing his goals from a hitting perspective given all the facts - in fact it is old news.

Many people were delighted that Frank was going to rework his swing to acknowledge the changes he had experienced in his physical ability and NO ONE thought it was selfish then. In fact they thought, "it's about time." It wasn't viewed as a selfish act, but a way to help the team in a new way - actually a better way since the old way had ceased working.

Now that he has restated these EXACT SAME POINTS it is all of a sudden "selfish, immature, self-centered, a desperate attempt to get into the HOF (which he will never ever qualify for)".

Honestly, you sound like "The Moron"...

:moron
"That bc2K - he's alright in my book. Tell it like it is, brother..."

WinningUgly!
03-07-2003, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Remember last season when Frank, (obsessed with his stats) kept justifying his season by saying how his power numbers are still respectable? I read the paper everyday and don't ever recall a Frank quote talking about catching the Twins. He is only concerned with himself and his personal stats.


Maybe you don't recall any Thomas quotes about catching the Twins last year, because he spent most of the season not talking to the media. The few times he did answer questions, the only questions asked were about his personal stats, along with the possibility of his diminshed skills clause being invoked!

Dadawg_77
03-08-2003, 11:36 AM
First off, I want Thomas to be selfish hitter. His bat is to good to waste on moving a runner over. During the course of a season using this approach, Frank and other great hitters will create more runs then he would be moving a runner over.

Frank's quote say he was taking the wrong approach for him at the plate. He had it in his head he should hit more HRs and he went up there to do that. Gary Ward should have seen this and help Thomas change his approach at the plate, that is what hitting coaches do. That is what Walt did this off season.

tampabaysoxfan
03-10-2003, 04:48 PM
He's the greatest hitter in team history.
Amen! to Duke of Dorwood!

(What's a Duke of Dorwood anyway?)

Bmr31
03-10-2003, 05:07 PM
Okay i am confused. some of you are sticking up for this selfish piece of **** why??? I mean yeah he is a sox player and we shouldnt root for him to do poorly, but anyone who can read should see what a selfish ****er he is.

czalgosz
03-10-2003, 05:13 PM
What does "selfish" mean in this case? Does it mean that he doesn't care if the Sox win? Are you arguing that?

Does a selfish player defer a bunch of salary, as Frank did, so that the Sox could bring in another top-flight hitter in Albert Belle?

What, specifically, has Frank done to lead you to the belief that he's selfish?

Unregistered
03-10-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Okay i am confused. some of you are sticking up for this selfish piece of **** why??? I mean yeah he is a sox player and we shouldnt root for him to do poorly, but anyone who can read should see what a selfish ****er he is. Jesus, Bmr... on the other hand, why do you hate the guy so much??? I mean sure, let's say he's a ''selfish hitter'', etc. etc., but to call a guy a piece of **** cause he hit .250 a year ago seems a bit extreme.
Unless of course a young, capricious Frank Thomas poured sugar in the gas tank of your family station wagon as a child, or something...

Bmr31
03-10-2003, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
What does "selfish" mean in this case? Does it mean that he doesn't care if the Sox win? Are you arguing that?

Does a selfish player defer a bunch of salary, as Frank did, so that the Sox could bring in another top-flight hitter in Albert Belle?

What, specifically, has Frank done to lead you to the belief that he's seflish?

There are many things that add to his selfishness, but to directly answer your question, yes. Frank Thomas cares very little about winning, its obvious to me(and to many others).

czalgosz
03-10-2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
There are many things that add to his selfishness, but to directly answer your question, yes. Frank Thomas cares very little about winning, its obvious to me(and to many others).

Give specific examples. It's not "obvious" at all.

Bmr31
03-10-2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
Jesus, Bmr... on the other hand, why do you hate the guy so much??? I mean sure, let's say he's a ''selfish hitter'', etc. etc., but to call a guy a piece of **** cause he hit .250 a year ago seems a bit extreme.
Unless of course a young, capricious Frank Thomas poured sugar in the gas tank of your family station wagon as a child, or something...

WHen did i say i hate him? I think he directly prohibits the sox from winning. Dont YOU care about this?

Bmr31
03-10-2003, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Give specific examples. It's not "obvious" at all.

I dont need to give the examples. You just choose to ignore them. Whats the point?

Unregistered
03-10-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
WHen did i say i hate him? I think he directly prohibits the sox from winning. Dont YOU care about this? Well, in my book, when you call someone a ''piece of ****'', that's about as hateful as you can get... but maybe that's just me. Take a pill, Bmr. i ASSURE you, Frank Thomas doesn't lose any sleep thinking about YOU.

czalgosz
03-10-2003, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
I dont need to give the examples. You just choose to ignore them. Whats the point?

Okay. Whatever.

voodoochile
03-10-2003, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
WHen did i say i hate him? I think he directly prohibits the sox from winning. Dont YOU care about this?

Since 1990 the Sox are 1075-962 for an average of 86 wins a season. How can you say he directly contributes to the Sox not winning games.

czalgosz
03-10-2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Since 1990 the Sox are 1075-962 for an average of 86 wins a season. How can you say he directly contributes to the Sox not winning games.

Obviously, if the Sox had just stuck with Matt Merullo, we'd be on our 8th consecutive championship...

Jjav829
03-10-2003, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Obviously, if the Sox had just stuck with Matt Merullo, we'd be on our 8th consecutive championship...

Ok ok, say what you want about Frank, but lets cool it on the Matt Merullo hate. :D:

Daver
03-10-2003, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Obviously, if the Sox had just stuck with Matt Merullo, we'd be on our 8th consecutive championship...

Czal,it is just plain wrong to bring this up,really wrong.

czalgosz
03-10-2003, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by daver
Czal,it is just plain wrong to bring this up,really wrong.

Why? No offense to anyone intended, of course...

Daver
03-10-2003, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Why? No offense to anyone intended, of course...

Comparing Frank Thomas to Matt Merullo is just plain wrong,it brings up some ugly images........

czalgosz
03-10-2003, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by daver
Comparing Frank Thomas to Matt Merullo is just plain wrong,it brings up some ugly images........

Imagine what Jerry Manuel could do with Merullo.

:jerry

You mean he can catch, too?

TimChamp
03-10-2003, 07:04 PM
Well, this might be a little late (just got back from class), but I don't really know where to start since there's like 12 pages of this thread and I'm kinda dizzy from reading them all, but my first impression was: WOW! I can't believe Frank is getting this treatment...I am extremely shocked, he's the ONLY reason why I decided to become a White Sox fan and this thread comes along...

I'm just saddened at how bad things have gotten with Frank...I mean first the media hates him (and misconstrues what he says), then some other people reading what the media has to say probably hates him too, and then we have some teammates (who might not have the right to do so) publicly criticize him?!?! I mean, wow, this is a guy that won 2 MVP's we're talking about!

Anyway, the least we can do for the guy is support him (not necessarily liking him or agreeing with what he does), but think of it this way, everybody else pretty much hates the guy. The least we can do as White Sox fans is support the guy...


Champ out to cheer Frank everytime he comes to bat...

Daver
03-10-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Imagine what Jerry Manuel could do with Merullo.

:jerry

You mean he can catch, too?

Stop it your killing me here.......


Beware the red dot.

:)

Bmr31
03-10-2003, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
Well, in my book, when you call someone a ''piece of ****'', that's about as hateful as you can get... but maybe that's just me. Take a pill, Bmr. i ASSURE you, Frank Thomas doesn't lose any sleep thinking about YOU.

LOL thats funny. Just because someone is a piece of **** doesnt mean i hate them. It doesnt mean they affect anything about me, either. The guy is a lazy, selfish whiner. If you think I am losing sleep over that, you're a confused human being.

voodoochile
03-10-2003, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
LOL thats funny. Just because someone is a piece of **** doesnt mean i hate them. It doesnt mean they affect anything about me, either. The guy is a lazy, selfish whiner. If you think I am losing sleep over that, you're a confused human being.

Where do you get lazy?

I'll acknowledge you think he is selfish and agree to disagree.

I can understand how someone might call him a whiner based on the things that have been written about him in the past few years. Personally, I think Frank is right in some of the things he says about the way he is treated, so again, I will agree to disagree.

But lazy? This, I want an explanation for...

Jjav829
03-10-2003, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Where do you get lazy?

I'll acknowledge you think he is selfish and agree to disagree.

I can understand how someone might call him a whiner based on the things that have been written about him in the past few years. Personally, I think Frank is right in some of the things he says about the way he is treated, so again, I will agree to disagree.

But lazy? This, I want an explanation for...

Maybe lazy in terms of keeping himself in good physical condition, but as far as his work ethic in the cages hes far from lazy.

voodoochile
03-10-2003, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Maybe lazy in terms of keeping himself in good physical condition, but as far as his work ethic in the cages hes far from lazy.

I don't even understand the first one to be honest with you. Frank has always been a big man, and his weight fluctuates, but he's never been fat like Boomer or Bartolo (for example)...

Jjav829
03-10-2003, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I don't even understand the first one to be honest with you. Frank has always been a big man, and his weight fluctuates, but he's never been fat like Boomer or Bartolo (for example)...

Yeah hes always been big but hes added a few pounds in recent years. Im not necessarily saying I believe this but Tim Kurkjian last year even speculated that part of Frank's problem was the added fat mainly across his chest.

TornLabrum
03-10-2003, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
LOL thats funny. Just because someone is a piece of **** doesnt mean i hate them.

So we can assume that if anyone here calls you a piece of ****, you'll think it's a love feast?

Bmr31
03-10-2003, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
So we can assume that if anyone here calls you a piece of ****, you'll think it's a love feast?

I wouldnt care.

fuzzy_patters
03-10-2003, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
WHen did i say i hate him? I think he directly prohibits the sox from winning. Dont YOU care about this?

In the years Frank has finished in the top 2 for the MVP the Sox have won 2 full season division titles and one partial season division title. In years in which he has struggled, such as 1999, 2001 and 2002, the Sox have not lived up to expectations. I believe the evidence suggests that the Sox cannot win without a productive Frank Thomas, which is pretty much the opposite of saying that Frank prohibits the Sox from winning.

voodoochile
03-10-2003, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


So we can assume that if anyone here calls you a piece of ****, you'll think it's a love feast?


Originally posted by Bmr31


I wouldnt care.


Heck, for Bmr, that's practically a term of endearment...

:D:

See the problem lies in how you finish that sentence...

a piece of 4-star (what)? Beef? Pie? Cake? Grade-A Pork?

Also depends on where you are. In America that is only very good, but in France (dirty word, I know) the ratings only go up to 3 stars and you don't even get one star until you are the equivalent of a 4-star restaurant here in America, so a 4-star piece of anything would be beyond belief in terms of quality...

Do you guys actually type the words and let the parser take them out, or do you just type the stars? Just curious...

Bmr31
03-10-2003, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
In the years Frank has finished in the top 2 for the MVP the Sox have won 2 full season division titles and one partial season division title. In years in which he has struggled, such as 1999, 2001 and 2002, the Sox have not lived up to expectations. I believe the evidence suggests that the Sox cannot win without a productive Frank Thomas, which is pretty much the opposite of saying that Frank prohibits the Sox from winning.

Are you serious? I look at that as....if he wasnt so self centered and lazy, the sox would win more often. Noone doubts his talent.

Bmr31
03-10-2003, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Heck, for Bmr, that's practically a term of endearment...

:D:

See the problem lies in how you finish that sentence...

a piece of 4-star (what)? Beef? Pie? Cake? Grade-A Pork?

Also depends on where you are. In America that is only very good, but in France (dirty word, I know) the ratings only go up to 3 stars and you don't even get one star until you are the equivalent of a 4-star restaurant here in America, so a 4-star piece of anything would be beyond belief in terms of quality...

Do you guys actually type the words and let the parser take them out, or do you just type the stars? Just curious...

Nah i just type the words. Where have these guys been all this time? Anyone who thinks i care what some internet site person says, hasnt been paying attention. :gulp:

voodoochile
03-10-2003, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Are you serious? I look at that as....if he wasnt so self centered and lazy, the sox would win more often. Noone doubts his talent.

Yeah, those injuries had nothing to do with it at all...

I guess as long as the answer fits your world view, the rest doesn't matter - which is true of anyone.

Still, I just don't get the animosity toward Frank Thomas. The man is a stud, a future HOF'er and the best hitter the SS has ever seen.

What have you done for me lately, Frank...

Bmr31
03-10-2003, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Yeah, those injuries had nothing to do with it at all...

I guess as long as the answer fits your world view, the rest doesn't matter - which is true of anyone.

Still, I just don't get the animosity toward Frank Thomas. The man is a stud, a future HOF'er and the best hitter the SS has ever seen.

What have you done for me lately, Frank...

He was a stud, now he is just a bitch...

voodoochile
03-10-2003, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
He was a stud, now he is just a bitch...

I hope he makes you eat those words... I really do...

Bmr31
03-10-2003, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I hope he makes you eat those words... I really do...

I have a theory about this whole Frank debate. I think the die hard fans who really CRAVE, i mean a deep down craving, for the sox to win, are the ones who dont like frank. I think the fans who are just oh well i hope they win, are the ones who really dont see how he is a cancer to a ring. Just my opinion. I just dont see a die hard fan backing Frank. I am not saying hope he does bad. I just mean i have no respect for him as a player or person.

fuzzy_patters
03-10-2003, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Are you serious? I look at that as....if he wasnt so self centered and lazy, the sox would win more often. Noone doubts his talent.

You could look at it as saying that if the Sox didn't have his "self-centered and lazy" ass they would have no divisional titles since 1983. Would you rather risk Frank possibly having a good year and helping the Sox win the Division this year, or would you rather get rid of him and revert back to the 2001 Sox?

Bmr31
03-10-2003, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
You could look at it as saying that if the Sox didn't have his "self-centered and lazy" ass they would have no divisional titles since 1983. Would you rather risk Frank possibly having a good year and helping the Sox win the Division this year, or would you rather get rid of him and revert back to the 2001 Sox?

See thats the problem, you keep mixing up talent and attitude. Anyone who watches baseball knows he can hit. What we are upset about, is the guys attitude prevents us from winning. I am really having a hard time understanding why some people dont see this. OF COURSE his talent has helped.

voodoochile
03-10-2003, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
I have a theory about this whole Frank debate. I think the die hard fans who really CRAVE, i mean a deep down craving, for the sox to win, are the ones who dont like frank. I think the fans who are just oh well i hope they win, are the ones who really dont see how he is a cancer to a ring. Just my opinion. I just dont see a die hard fan backing Frank. I am not saying hope he does bad. I just mean i have no respect for him as a player or person.

Yeah, because you have some deep insight into Frank's mind and know he is bad for the team makes you a better more dedicated fan. I guess that only 10% of the fans on this board are truly diehard fans then...

At least I don't pretend to be objective when it comes to Frank, but you guys who tear him down all claim to have some deeper understanding and only want what is best for the team. What a load of **** (I just typed the stars :D: ).

My theory is that the people who don't like Frank are so blinded by the negative media that surrounds him that they no longer are objective about his ability or what he means to the team. Even if all he means is his numbers, it is still better numbers than almost anyone else they can sign and there would be no guarantee that anyone else would be a better teammate, but they would probably put up worse numbers. I know! The Sox can trade Frank for Mark Johnson. He's a great teammate, and he'll solve that backup catching problem the team has. Okay, that problem is solved what's next...

Bmr31
03-10-2003, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Yeah, because you have some deep insight into Frank's mind and know he is bad for the team makes you a better more dedicated fan. I guess that only 10% of the fans on this board are truly diehard fans then...

At least I don't pretend to be objective when it comes to Frank, but you guys who tear him down all claim to have some deeper understanding and only want what is best for the team. What a load of **** (I just typed the stars :D: ).

My theory is that the people who don't like Frank are so blinded by the negative media that surrounds him that they no longer are objective about his ability or what he means to the team. Even if all he means is his numbers, it is still better numbers than almost anyone else they can sign and there would be no guarantee that anyone else would be a better teammate, but they would probably put up worse numbers. I know! The Sox can trade Frank for Mark Johnson. He's a great teammate, and he'll solve that backup catching problem the team has. Okay, that problem is solved what's next...

I read maybe 30 percent of your post and stopped. I dont pay attention to the media, respect the media, or care what they think. I have a brain, thanks. I would like to add that knowing that you dont even know who Jimmy rollins is, i hardly think youre a die hard anything when it comes to baseball.

Nellie_Fox
03-10-2003, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
I have a theory about this whole Frank debate. I think the die hard fans who really CRAVE, i mean a deep down craving, for the sox to win, are the ones who dont like frank. I think the fans who are just oh well i hope they win, are the ones who really dont see how he is a cancer to a ring. Just my opinion. I just dont see a die hard fan backing Frank. I am not saying hope he does bad. I just mean i have no respect for him as a player or person. The typical Bmr argument. Absolutely devoid of facts, but if you don't agree with his opinion, you're not as good (or, of course, as smart) a fan as Bmr. I've been a Sox fan since Carasquel was playing short, but I'm not as die-hard as Bmr because I still support Frank Thomas.

Originally posted by Bmr31
See thats the problem, you keep mixing up talent and attitude. Anyone who watches baseball knows he can hit. What we are upset about, is the guys attitude prevents us from winning. I am really having a hard time understanding why some people dont see this. OF COURSE his talent has helped. EXPLAIN WHAT THE ATTITUDE IS, AND HOW IT STOPS THE SOX FROM WINNING! It just amazes me that you contend that he doesn't care about winning, but offer no evidence to back that up. But then, you never do. You just present your opinions as irrefutable facts.

Bmr, you give me a headache. I know that you don't care about that, but I really don't need to come here for a headache.

voodoochile
03-10-2003, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
See thats the problem, you keep mixing up talent and attitude. Anyone who watches baseball knows he can hit. What we are upset about, is the guys attitude prevents us from winning. I am really having a hard time understanding why some people dont see this. OF COURSE his talent has helped.

Yes, and where most of us disagree with you diehard types is that we think Frank's talent more than off sets any possible problems in the clubhouse. If not than we need a new manager, not a new DH. Hopefully the new manager would manage to tell all the whiners to **** and play ball. That would include, but not be limited to Frank. Manuel seems to think Frank is the only one who needs to be brought down a peg, but for my money I'd keep Frank and find a manager who could get the most out of him.

Sometimes I wonder if the lack of backing Frank gets from Manuel is all a ploy by KW and JR to run Frank out of town so they no longer have to pay him. Then they can wash their hands innocently and say, "I guess Bmr (or whoever) was right, Frank really wasn't a team player." Maybe just maybe if ANYONE in the organization would get Frank's back for a year or two, he would turn back into that great teammate that picked Robin Ventura up at Home and carried him off the field when Robin hit his second grand slam in that July game, lo these many years ago.

Who is standing up for Frank except for Frank? Why does he have to be a great teammate to all of them, but they are free to rip on him whenever they want to? Isn't team chemistry supposed to work both ways?

Bmr31
03-10-2003, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
The typical Bmr argument. Absolutely devoid of facts, but if you don't agree with his opinion, you're not as good (or, of course, as smart) a fan as Bmr. I've been a Sox fan since Carasquel was playing short, but I'm not as die-hard as Bmr because I still support Frank Thomas.

EXPLAIN WHAT THE ATTITUDE IS, AND HOW IT STOPS THE SOX FROM WINNING! It just amazes me that you contend that he doesn't care about winning, but offer no evidence to back that up. But then, you never do. You just present your opinions as irrefutable facts.

Bmr, you give me a headache. I know that you don't care about that, but I really don't need to come here for a headache.

I dont provide facts because i dont care to prove anything to you or anyone else. I come to this site to get information and provide my opinion. If you dont like that, too bad.

Bmr31
03-10-2003, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Yes, and where most of us disagree with you diehard types is that we think Frank's talent more than off sets any possible problems in the clubhouse. If not than we need a new manager, not a new DH. Hopefully the new manager would manage to tell all the whiners to **** and play ball. That would include, but not be limited to Frank. Manuel seems to think Frank is the only one who needs to be brought down a peg, but for my money I'd keep Frank and find a manager who could get the most out of him.

Sometimes I wonder if the lack of backing Frank gets from Manuel is all a ploy by KW and JR to run Frank out of town so they no longer have to pay him. Then they can wash their hands innocently and say, "I guess Bmr (or whoever) was right, Frank really wasn't a team player." Maybe just maybe if ANYONE in the organization would get Frank's back for a year or two, he would turn back into that great teammate that picked Robin Ventura up at Home and carried him off the field when Robin hit his second grand slam in that July game, lo these many years ago.

Who is standing up for Frank except for Frank? Why does he have to be a great teammate to all of them, but they are free to rip on him whenever they want to? Isn't team chemistry supposed to work both ways?

Either all this crap you wrote is true, or those people see the obvious? Tough choice.

voodoochile
03-10-2003, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
I read maybe 30 percent of your post and stopped. I dont pay attention to the media, respect the media, or care what they think. I have a brain, thanks. I would like to add that knowing that you dont even know who Jimmy rollins is, i hardly think youre a die hard anything when it comes to baseball.

I don't follow "baseball", I follow the Sox. I have never pretended otherwise. I definitely don't follow the NL other than what I pick up about the flubbies while reading the newspaper.

Oh, sometimes I learn something about other divisional rivals that way, or I read the Sunday Phil Rogers column to gain some insight into the game at large, but I am not a fan of the whole sport, merely my team. If you have a problem with that, oh well...

Bmr31
03-10-2003, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I don't follow "baseball", I follow the Sox. I have never pretended otherwise. I definitely don't follow the NL other than what I pick up about the flubbies while reading the newspaper.

Oh, sometimes I learn something about other divisional rivals that way, or I read the Sunday Phil Rogers column to gain some insight into the game at large, but I am not a fan of the whole sport, merely my team. If you have a problem with that, oh well...

Sorry, but die hard fans, or die hard anything, know their team and the teams competition. I find it difficult to believe you can truly love a team, but not the sport. I think you want to be part of the sox family. That doesnt mean youre a die hard fan.

voodoochile
03-10-2003, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Either all this crap you wrote is true, or those people see the obvious? Tough choice.

I see, my opinions are crap, but yours are the obvious answer...

hmmm...

Bmr31
03-10-2003, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I see, my opinions are crap, but yours are the obvious answer...

hmmm...

I didnt say your opinions are crap. That post was crap.

voodoochile
03-10-2003, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Sorry, but die hard fans, or die hard anything, know their team and the teams competition. I find it difficult to believe you can truly love a team, but not the sport. I think you want to be part of the sox family. That doesnt mean youre a die hard fan.

I am a diehard fan of the team, but you don't believe that, I really don't care. I think some things about you too, but I'll refrain from calling your ego on the carpet the way you have with me...

voodoochile
03-10-2003, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
I didnt say your opinions are crap. That post was crap.

My posts ARE my opinions, just like yours are...

Bmr31
03-10-2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I am a diehard fan of the team, but you don't believe that, I really don't care. I think some things about you too, but I'll refrain from calling your ego on the carpet the way you have with me...

You shouldnt refrain from anything. I call them as i see them.

voodoochile
03-11-2003, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
You shouldnt refrain from anything. I call them as i see them.

Well, you need glasses... :D:

Bmr31
03-11-2003, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
My posts ARE my opinions, just like yours are...

LOL ok if you must have me break it down, THAT one opinion of yours, was crap, in MY OPINION. LOL is all this really necessary? Sometimes i think you just say things to keep conversations going. YOu know what i mean, why do u and daver think everything has to be spelled out? I think i can safely say you given hundreds of opinions and i didnt say they were crap, all of a sudden ALL your opinions aare crap? Please....

Bmr31
03-11-2003, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Well, you need glasses... :D:


LOL either that or i dont worry about pleasing others every moment of my life?

voodoochile
03-11-2003, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
LOL ok if you must have me break it down, THAT one opinion of yours, was crap, in MY OPINION. LOL is all this really necessary? Sometimes i think you just say things to keep conversations going. YOu know what i mean, why do u and daver think everything has to be spelled out? I think i can safely say you given hundreds of opinions and i didnt say they were crap, all of a sudden ALL your opinions aare crap? Please....

You tend to talk in generalities which makes your posts easy to misinterpret. You make wide sweeping statements about anyone who disagrees with you and defend it by saying "just my opinion". Of course what your opinion in this thread alone said was, "Any Sox fan who can't see that Frank is a cancer and should be dumped isn't as good a fan as I am" - which according to polls on this board is about 90% of the other posters." And, "Voodoo, I don't respect your opinion about the Sox and don't think you are a true fan of the Sox because you don't follow every team in the league."

Maybe I'm nuts, but where I come from, "them's fighting words." Don't believe me? Try it in a bar sometime.

You want less confusion? Be more specific...

Bmr31
03-11-2003, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You tend to talk in generalities which makes your posts easy to misinterpret. You make wide sweeping statements about anyone who disagrees with you and defend it by saying "just my opinion". Of course what your opinion in this thread alone said was, "Any Sox fan who can't see that Frank is a cancer and should be dumped isn't as good a fan as I am" - which according to polls on this board is about 90% of the other posters." And, "Voodoo, I don't respect your opinion about the Sox and don't think you are a true fan of the Sox because you don't follow every team in the league."

Maybe I'm nuts, but where I come from, "them's fighting words." Don't believe me? Try it in a bar sometime.

You want less confusion? Be more specific...



That would leave 10 percent as die hards who have the top priority as winning. Sounds about right.

voodoochile
03-11-2003, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
That would leave 10 percent as die hards who have the top priority as winning. Sounds about right.

Last point and off to bed...

If I thought trading Frank would make the Sox a better team, I would say, "Later Frank." But, I disagree. I think Frank makes the team better you don't, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...

Bmr31
03-11-2003, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Last point and off to bed...

If I thought trading Frank would make the Sox a better team, I would say, "Later Frank." But, I disagree. I think Frank makes the team better you don't, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...

See you misunderstood. I think Frank makes the team better, than no Frank at all. My problem with him is he doesnt lead, he doesnt give his best, and he isnt a good teammate. IF he did all that, and produced on the field, i think the sox would be much closer to winning it all. That is my frustration. A guy who has all the talent in the world, yet like Sosa, seems only interested in himself.

WinningUgly!
03-11-2003, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
I have a theory about this whole Frank debate. I think the die hard fans who really CRAVE, i mean a deep down craving, for the sox to win, are the ones who dont like frank. I think the fans who are just oh well i hope they win, are the ones who really dont see how he is a cancer to a ring. Just my opinion. I just dont see a die hard fan backing Frank. I am not saying hope he does bad. I just mean i have no respect for him as a player or person.

I think your theory is the equivalent of a big old steaming, stinking pile of horse crap. That's just my opinion, though. :D:

Dadawg_77
03-11-2003, 09:48 AM
When BMR starts one of his self righteous spiels, just watch out

:whoflungpoo






That is only my opinion.

gosox41
03-11-2003, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Okay i am confused. some of you are sticking up for this selfish piece of **** why??? I mean yeah he is a sox player and we shouldnt root for him to do poorly, but anyone who can read should see what a selfish ****er he is.


Why do fans worship Sammy?
Why did Bulls fans adore Rodman when they thought he was dirty and despised him with the Pistons?
Why love Scottie Pippen when he whines about his contract and quits on the team?
Why cheer that Bears tight end (whose name escapes) even though he beats the s*** out of his girlfriends?
Why worship the 'Danimal" when he can kill someone with his DUI that he had?

Do you want me to go on with other athletes and their behavior? Was it selfish of Theo Fleury to go back to drinking after he came to the Hawks and letting his teammates down?


The point is all players have faults. It may not necessarily be on the field but the fans continue to love these guys.

If the worst thing Frank Thomas does is whine then I can live with it.

Bob

gosox41
03-11-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
I dont provide facts because i dont care to prove anything to you or anyone else. I come to this site to get information and provide my opinion. If you dont like that, too bad.

Well here's an opinion for you:

You come off sounding like a moron when you sput off whatever is on your mind without backing it up. You have every right not to like Frank. Now explain why with real life examples and then explain how you can hold other players to a different standard.

I know it involves deep thinking, but you have no credibility when you just spout off your opinion with no logic.


Bob

voodoochile
03-11-2003, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
See you misunderstood. I think Frank makes the team better, than no Frank at all. My problem with him is he doesnt lead, he doesnt give his best, and he isnt a good teammate. IF he did all that, and produced on the field, i think the sox would be much closer to winning it all. That is my frustration. A guy who has all the talent in the world, yet like Sosa, seems only interested in himself.

Well, that is news to me. Your posts seem to indicate otherwise up to now...

We just disagree on what Frank does and should bring to the team. I don't care if he leads by words, so long as he continues to carry that big stick. I also disagree that Frank doesn't give his best. We can go round and round on whether Frank's hitting problems have been due to his personal life, injuries or pure unadulterated selfishness. I think the former two; you think the latter. I can accept the former two as being legitimate reasons for anyone to struggle; others can't or don't.

When Frank is healthy and happy he is one of the most feared hitters in baseball. Even when he doesn't lead. Personally, I don't think this is the right time for Frank to try and become a leader anyway. I agree that there has been some tension on the team and if he were to suddenly try and do that, it might cause a larger rift. Just doing what he is paid to do - see baseball, hit baseball will be plenty for me.

I still wish someone from the team would step up and back Frank publicly. Maybe that is babying him. I say, "SO WHAT!?!??!??!" Prove to Frank he is appreciated, even go out of their way to do so and see where it gets them. Like it or not, running a professional sports team IS partly about managing egos. Every other superstar in the league gets at least SOME special treatment. Kill frank with kindness and watch him go on an MVP style tear - now wouldn't that suck...

joecrede
03-11-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
See you misunderstood. I think Frank makes the team better, than no Frank at all. My problem with him is he doesnt lead, he doesnt give his best, and he isnt a good teammate. IF he did all that, and produced on the field, i think the sox would be much closer to winning it all. That is my frustration. A guy who has all the talent in the world, yet like Sosa, seems only interested in himself.

Closer to winning? You said Thomas' attitude prevents that. Can't have it both ways.

As far as leadership goes, #14's taken care of that.

FanOf14
03-11-2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
Closer to winning? You said Thomas' attitude prevents that. Can't have it both ways.

As far as leadership goes, #14's taken care of that.

There was an article on the Sun-Times website talking about 14's leadership. Borchard and Valentin were quoted. I think it was from a few days ago, but I read it today so I know it's still on the site.

Familiar spring for Konerko (http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox08.html)

ssang
03-11-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
I have a theory about this whole Frank debate. I think the die hard fans who really CRAVE, i mean a deep down craving, for the sox to win, are the ones who dont like frank. I think the fans who are just oh well i hope they win, are the ones who really dont see how he is a cancer to a ring. Just my opinion. I just dont see a die hard fan backing Frank. I am not saying hope he does bad. I just mean i have no respect for him as a player or person.


Amen to that. I'm with you on this one.

Bmr31
03-11-2003, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Well here's an opinion for you:

You come off sounding like a moron when you sput off whatever is on your mind without backing it up. You have every right not to like Frank. Now explain why with real life examples and then explain how you can hold other players to a different standard.

I know it involves deep thinking, but you have no credibility when you just spout off your opinion with no logic.


Bob

LOL, and I care what you think why?????? For the record, Ive stated 1000 times why I dont like Frank, and why hes selfish. Either learn to read or stay out of it.

StepsInSC
03-11-2003, 09:02 PM
People who don't like Frank Thomas should go off and die somewhere.

WinningUgly!
03-11-2003, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
People who don't like Frank Thomas should go off and die somewhere.

That would kill off the entire population of die hard Sox fans! :)

TornLabrum
03-11-2003, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
That would kill off the entire population of die hard Sox fans! :)

Ain't nobody more diehard that this Sox fan, and I ain't gonna go off and die with the Thomas bashers.

Dadawg_77
03-11-2003, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
LOL, and I care what you think why?????? For the record, Ive stated 1000 times why I dont like Frank, and why hes selfish. Either learn to read or stay out of it.

What site or message board, but I haven't seen anything here.

Bmr31
03-12-2003, 01:36 AM
By the way....I drafted Frank today, in my first fantasy draft.

FanOf14
03-12-2003, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
People who don't like Frank Thomas should go off and die somewhere.

So now, what you are saying is that no matter how long I have been following the white sox, if I am not a big FT I should go and die...that's a really intelligent comment...

BKozi
03-12-2003, 10:14 AM
It looks like everyone else in the WS Universe has commented on this thread so I thought I might as well too.

First off, the comment about "die hard fans who really CRAVE, i mean a deep down craving, for the sox to win, are the ones who don't like Frank" is a bunch of crap. That makes no sense. If you are "deep down craving" so much, you really wouldn't care who was on the field, as long as they could give you a win, including Frank. Love him or hate him, the guy still is one of the top DH's in the league. If we got rid of Thomas and put Tony Graffanino at DH, I can guarantee you we would have at least 10 fewer wins. You can't have it both ways. Sometimes you need good players who you don't necessarily like in order to win games. See "Ty Cobb" or "Ricky Henderson" early in his career.

Personally, I like Frank Thomas. I don't like him for what he says but for what he does. I will take a potential .330/35/120 guy on my team any day (keep in mind I said "potential". I think his numbers will be back this year). I do think that he needs to keep his mouth shut and just play, but when I'm watching a game, I get excited when he comes up to bat, just because I have seen him get clutch hits time after time. I hope nobody disagrees with me when I say that Frank was our most consistent offensive player throughout most of the 1990's. His bat and some good pitching made us an AL Central contender every year. 30 years from now, when I'm talking about the WS of my youth, the first player that I will bring up is FT and what he did for the Sox.

gosox41
03-12-2003, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
LOL, and I care what you think why?????? For the record, Ive stated 1000 times why I dont like Frank, and why hes selfish. Either learn to read or stay out of it.

But it's so fun to get you riled up (and easy).

StepsInSC
03-12-2003, 10:33 AM
So now, what you are saying is that no matter how long I have been following the white sox, if I am not a big FT I should go and die...that's a really intelligent comment...

I never stated that I believed what I said to be an "intelligent comment". Lol and I never intended it to be an intelligent comment. I was simply going along with the whole theme of posting opinions which had been clearly emphasized earlier in the post. And it is my opinion, that people who don't like Thomas should go off somewhere and die.

What makes that opinion any more unreasonable than the opinion that Thomas is a plague upon the clubhouse and that he's selfish? People who say those things about him don't know him personally, and they don't know what his teammates think/feel about him.

FanOf14
03-12-2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
I never stated that I believed what I said to be an "intelligent comment". Lol and I never intended it to be an intelligent comment. I was simply going along with the whole theme of posting opinions which had been clearly emphasized earlier in the post. And it is my opinion, that people who don't like Thomas should go off somewhere and die.

What makes that opinion any more unreasonable than the opinion that Thomas is a plague upon the clubhouse and that he's selfish? People who say those things about him don't know him personally, and they don't know what his teammates think/feel about him.

Saying someone should die based on who they cheer for is unreasonable. No one said Thomas should go off and die or anyone that is a fan should. It's one thing if you said they should find another team to cheer for or something along those lines, but bring death into it goes over the line, IMHO. Look, I am all for a good free-for-all thread, but to tell someone to go off and die based on cheering/not cheering for someone is unreasonable, but then again, that is only my opnion.

StepsInSC
03-12-2003, 10:44 AM
I'm not actually wishing death against those people, I was under the assumption most people would hopefully realize that. Call it a hyperbole if you wish.

Bmr31
03-12-2003, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
But it's so fun to get you riled up (and easy).

LOL!!!! You think you got me riled up? *****!

TheBigHurt
03-12-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
By the way....I drafted Frank today, in my first fantasy draft.

what rd did ya get him????

BY THE WAY i drafted in the 1st rd 7 pick overall and won the Championship (not the wsi league) ...Plan to pick HURT 1st again

Iwritecode
03-12-2003, 01:42 PM
:tomatoaward

Just in case noone else has given it for this thread yet...

doublem23
03-12-2003, 01:50 PM
This one is well on its way to a Triple Tomato Award

ssang
03-12-2003, 02:19 PM
I know I was the one who started this thread but I thought it was worth-while to point out that Frank hit 2 HRS (1 massive HR) yesterday. Hopefully a sign of things to come. He still sucks as a teammate though.

34 Inch Stick
03-12-2003, 02:49 PM
Yeah, the Sox club house would have been much better without him in 2000. They could have happily finished in third place.

I hope this post lasts until the season begins, so I can send it back to the top every day to taunt you ssang.

I do have to give you props on the number of posts though. What is the largest amount of posts any thread has gotten?

Bmr31
03-12-2003, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by TheBigHurt
what rd did ya get him????

BY THE WAY i drafted in the 1st rd 7 pick overall and won the Championship (not the wsi league) ...Plan to pick HURT 1st again

I got him in the 11th round, which wasnt bad. Despite my opinion of Frank Thomas, I expect and hope he puts up good numbers this season.

HawaiiSoxFan
03-14-2003, 02:31 AM
:cool: Hey, I don't disagree with you but your logic as to why Frank was putting up the numbers in the past would have to hold true for all the players. They all do it for themselves to get those nice contracts. Now I am sure they also do it for the team, and I believe that Frank in his heyday was doing it for the team too. But I do agree that he is in his twilight years as a ballplayer, but lets not get carried away and compare him to Sammy Sosa. No one deserves that, especially a Sox Player.

Daver
03-19-2003, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by ssang
How's Frank been playin' this spring?

I think you can look at the numbers and answer that question for yourself,hitting .330 with a .700 slugging percentage works for me,since it is well known that Frank takes some time to get his swing going.

And I am not a fan of Frank's.

Ol Aches & Pains
03-19-2003, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
IM a bit disturbed by Thomas' comments. most of them have been twisted around by the media. For now, I wont join the Anti Frank Club....We Need Him bad this year to step up. Think this will all work out in his favor. Once they start winning, and he starts hitting, everybody will be all Smiles. The guy is down, and I dont know if I want to kick the guy while hes down.

Thomas was quoted as saying he got "screwed" in reference to his $5 million contract. The media didn't twist that around, he said it, OK? He's making $5 million because the Sox invoked the "diminished skills" clause in his contract, which he presumably read and signed.

Every Spring Training for the last several years, Thomas causes a distraction in camp with his stupid comments and antics, going all the way back to 1997 and his ignorant remarks about Jackie Robinson.

How all these posters here can maintain that Thomas is not a selfish player is beyond me. He won't even slide, for Chrissakes! He's the worst defensive first baseman I've ever seen, but he insists on playing defense. I think I could throw down to second base more accurately, and I'm 53 years old!

I won't boo Thomas, I don't boo anybody. But the fact is, 10 years ago I was a Sox fan mainly because of Frank Thomas. Now I'm a Sox fan in spite of him.

StepsInSC
03-19-2003, 09:40 PM
Maybe I'm just slightly retarded, but I just can't grasp the concept that the words that come out of Thomas' mouth float around on the field and affect his teammate's performance. The closest thing to a big incident was the Thomas/Konerko thing and that was just an exchange of words through the media off the field. I can't remember an instance where Thomas almost got into a fight with a teammate on the field (I can't remember one, doesn't mean it doesn't exist). And unless there is animosity b/w them on the field, I refuse to believe that Thomas should be gone just b/c he makes stupid comments. Even if he puts up numbers like last year, thats a pretty decent bargain for 5 million bucks. Hell, Carl Everett is making 10 million this year if I'm not mistaken.

Anyways this is America. If you want team harmony and all that crap, move to Japan.