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Juan Pizarro
02-23-2003, 08:40 AM
Any comment on Manuel saying he'd consider Carlos to hit second?

If Lee ca keep his newfound patience intact, that might not be such a bad idea. Then Valentin could give some lefty action farther down the order.

WinningUgly!
02-23-2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by Juan Pizarro
Any comment on Manuel saying he'd consider Carlos to hit second?

If Lee ca keep his newfound patience intact, that might not be such a bad idea. Then Valentin could give some lefty action farther down the order.

I was thinking about this the other day. It reminds me of when Fisk was moved to the 2-hole in '83.

duke of dorwood
02-23-2003, 11:36 AM
I'd love it.

TheBigHurt
02-23-2003, 12:01 PM
its not a bad idea infact, its a good idea

EnricoPallazzo
02-23-2003, 12:01 PM
Great idea. It could help him retain the plate discipline he showed the 2nd half last season. If he just stays on the pitch and hits to all fields he COULD finally have the breakout year we have been waiting for since Jacko was human. He definitely has the power to go yard to right. It could help his power numbers, all his numbers. He might have to spend 30 days in some base running boot camp first though.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-23-2003, 12:25 PM
Taking a walk is one thing. Transforming El Caballo into a situational hitter is something quite different. Does he have what it takes to lay down a bunt, play run and hit, and run the bases effectively in front of the team's big hitters? I'm not so sure.

I think management should seek to stretch the abilities of every young ballplayer if they are ever to fulfill all the accomplishments their still-unrefined talent will allow. However, this may be another case of Manuel simply setting up a young guy for failure.

:jerry
"Did I ever tell you the one about this young catcher I had who was so versatile, I once played him in left field?"

A.T. Money
02-23-2003, 12:36 PM
I prefer Jose in that spot.

EnricoPallazzo
02-23-2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Taking a walk is one thing. Transforming El Caballo into a situational hitter is something quite different. Does he have what it takes to lay down a bunt, play run and hit, and run the bases effectively in front of the team's big hitters? I'm not so sure.

I think management should seek to stretch the abilities of every young ballplayer if they are ever to fulfill all the accomplishments their still-unrefined talent will allow. However, this may be another case of Manuel simply setting up a young guy for failure.

:jerry
"Did I ever tell you the one about this young catcher I had who was so versatile, I once played him in left field?"


I think he has the talent to master situatiional hitting and, more importantly, having to do so, staying longer on the pitch, hitting up the middle and to right field, could jump start that bat.

I don't know if he could master the art of bunting, like the other 6 guys in the major leagues have, but I would take that risk in hopes of the possible reward.

I agree that his whacky baserunning would be a problem though. He seems to have bad instincts there and I don't know if that can ever be corrected.

kermittheefrog
02-23-2003, 01:36 PM
It really depends on what they want Carlos to do. If they are going to ask him to bunt and hit and run it's probably not a good idea to have him hitting second. That's not his game and asking him to do these things are mainly a waste of a guy who can hit like Carlos while at the same time you might take him out of his game by asking him to do it. I think Carlos would work anywhere in the batting order if you just put him there and made sure he's trying to do the things he does best.

guillen4life13
02-23-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
It really depends on what they want Carlos to do. If they are going to ask him to bunt and hit and run it's probably not a good idea to have him hitting second. That's not his game and asking him to do these things are mainly a waste of a guy who can hit like Carlos while at the same time you might take him out of his game by asking him to do it. I think Carlos would work anywhere in the batting order if you just put him there and made sure he's trying to do the things he does best.

anywhere except leadoff :)

TheBigHurt
02-23-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
anywhere except leadoff :)

yeah we have harris for that :D:

gogosoxgogo
02-23-2003, 03:31 PM
My worry is that Lee's base running is not good enough to be a number 2 hitter. I'd much rather have a threat on the base paths, to give the pitcher something else to worry about in addition to Big Frank, Maggs, and Paulie on their way up.

Although Jose isn't the greatest to swipe a base, he's very smart on the base paths. I also like him in the #2 spot because he has great plate discipline as the most clutch hitter on the team. I don't think the Sox have a real good choice for a #2 hitter (the Lofton/Durham combo last year was amazing for the first month), but out of what we do have, Jose is my choice.

maurice
02-24-2003, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Juan Pizarro
Any comment on Manuel saying he'd consider Carlos to hit second?

Yes. I'd say it looks like he's been reading WSI. This bodes well for the Sox.

Article. (http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sox_story.asp?intID=3767432)

baggio202
02-24-2003, 01:25 PM
this is freakin terrible idea in my opinion...for 3 reasons

reason number 1....carlos is just too dumb as a ballplayer to bat 2nd..its a thinking man's spot in the order...you have to take pitches...not because they are out of the strike zone but because yopu need to let the runner see pitches.....carlos would have to let strikes go by to give jimenez/harris /olivo/rowand (whoever the 8-9-1 hitters are) a read on the pitcher...here are some splits on carlos...if the count starts out 0-1 on carlos he hit .213 last year...after 0-2 he hit .136...looking at the rest of his splits he did hit good with runner on 1st(323)...but he also hit real well with bases loaded (444)...runners on 2nd /3rd (300) and scoring position 2 outs (302)...seems with those splits and the inability to bunt and situational hit carlos is much better served in the 6 or 7 spot..where he can drive in runs..which is his forte...

reason number 2...if carlos returns as the carlos of old we will see one crappy half year and one good half..and a boatload of dumb mistakes...his numbers would end up similiar to last year..25-75 .270...with his inability to situational hit and bunt thats just not good enough for a number 2 hitter with limited skills

reason number 3....if carlos reaches his potential like i hear his fans saying will happen every year..do you really want a guy thats gonna hit 35 -110 300 with a 400 obp in the 2nd spot???...having to take pitches???...and still making dumb mistakes???...wouldnt those stats and carlos' inability to situational hit be better served in a power spot in the order???

czalgosz
02-24-2003, 03:37 PM
Everybody hits bad on 0-2, because batters rarely if ever see a hitter's pitch on 0-2, and they're trying to protect. .136 is about standard for hitting on 0-2. That's not enough reason to bat him lower down in the order.

It's like Kermit said - it comes down to the basic philosophy of what Manuel wants to do with the #2 hole. If he wants a guy who will bunt and hit-and-run, then Lee isn't the guy. But if he wants a guy who will take his hacks and put runners in scoring position, setting up the heart of the order, Lee just might do that job.

I would be against the "old" Carlos Lee, who swung at everything, to be the #2 hitter. But if he can build on his newfound plate discipline, he could make a lot of hay in that position, letting Valentin hit 6th or 7th where he can do more damage, and break up all those righty bats.

maurice
02-24-2003, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
do you really want a guy thats gonna hit 35 -110 300 with a 400 obp in the 2nd spot?

Absolutely . . . especially the "400 obp" part. That would give him one of the top obp's among Sox players, great for a top-of-the-order hitter. Heck, even if he batted only .270, he'd still probably have a better obp than most, including Valentin (career .248 average, almost identical to last year's)

Lee doesn't play for Detroit or Tampa, where he'd bat 3, 4 or, 5. The Sox have a number of players capable of hitting in those spots, including Valentin (1.086 OPS with runners in scoring positon last year; 25 HR, 75 RBI in only 474 ABs overall). What they don't have is a prototypical #2 (e.g., Jeter). Lee is less than ideal, but he will look at a lot of pitches and make more contact than many Sox players, including Valentin (who strikes out more and walks less than Lee). Finally, batting Valentin down in the order breaks up a string of righties, at least until Borchard is called up later this year.

kermittheefrog
02-24-2003, 04:47 PM
I think if Lee is approaching a .400 OBP it's a great reason for him to be at the top of the order. I think Jimenez, Lee and Thomas as 1-2-3 would mean a ton of RBIs for Magglio Ordonez and Paul Konerko. This seems a little weird but I think it might be worth putting Jose Valentin in the 5th spot in the lineup so that we don't have so many righthanded bats in a row. We could also really use Joe Borchard to be ready with his bat.

joecrede
02-24-2003, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I think if Lee is approaching a .400 OBP it's a great reason for him to be at the top of the order. I think Jimenez, Lee and Thomas as 1-2-3 would mean a ton of RBIs for Magglio Ordonez and Paul Konerko. This seems a little weird but I think it might be worth putting Jose Valentin in the 5th spot in the lineup so that we don't have so many righthanded bats in a row. We could also really use Joe Borchard to be ready with his bat.

Like the idea of a lefthanded bat hitting 5th and agree that we could really use Borchard ASAP. Rowand just isn't a good fit on this team.

a 5-9 v. righthanders of Valentin, Konerko Borchard, Crede, and Olivio, I think is the best option.

hold2dibber
02-24-2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Like the idea of a lefthanded bat hitting 5th and agree that we could really use Borchard ASAP. Rowand just isn't a good fit on this team.

a 5-9 v. righthanders of Valentin, Konerko Borchard, Crede, and Olivio, I think is the best option.

If/when Borchard is ready, and if/when he can put up numbers even close to what people seem to think he is capable of, that would be one hell of a 5-9. In fact, that'd be a pretty good 2-6 on many teams.