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Hangar18
02-18-2003, 07:51 AM
While checking the news/weather this am, I heard the score talking about Arvias story on Reinsdorfs "secret surveys".
Remember a couple weeks ago, when Uncle Jerry made the comment about him wanting "to win more than fans do". Well, this apparently came from a survey the Sox have been paying top dollar to have done. That idiot Murphy on SCR, is making great pains to make sure he points out that this study has found that most Sox Fans at the game dont know the score, players are etc, just like the Fans we make fun of daily up on the north side. To his (Murphy) credit, he did point out that MAYBE the hard core fans have been Alienated. The Sox have discovered that they havnt had 2 mill in attendance since the 93 season. Duh...I could tell them why that is. BECAUSE OF THE STRIKE. among other things.... WHo the heck were they asking questions of?
Certainly not me....

Hangar18
02-18-2003, 07:55 AM
I cannot begin to describe to you the ANGER and FRUSTRATION I got this morning, driving to work, and listening to this BS on the Radio. I can see why lots of people at wsi argue on stats vs. reality. The White Sox are looking at pure stats...when they should be looking at reality. Just Win.

FanOf14
02-18-2003, 08:32 AM
The whole thing makes me laugh. Does JR really think insulting fans will make them go to the ball park more? Does he really think we believe that he wants to win more than us? If that is true why have the Sox not won a home playoff game much less a playoff series in the last twenty years?

PaleHoseGeorge
02-18-2003, 09:01 AM
I don't blame you for being upset. I would like to add just a few points and offer some friendly advice.

1. Whatever survey JR commissioned is not relevant unless his survey included fans NOT at the ballpark. Those are the ones the Sox need to attract.

2. The views of surveyed fans inside New Comiskey is not relevant unless compared to the views of fans inside OTHER ballparks. It doesn't sound like any benchmarks were used in this survey--unless we're counting JR as the benchmark. (That's a joke.)

3. Do any of us need any more proof that Jerry Reinsdorf has a tin ear for public relations? The man is a p.r. nightmare mounted on two legs. He can't help but put his foot in his mouth, over and over and over again.

Finally, some friendly advice...

Do yourself a favor. Stop listening to sports blab radio. 90 percent of the opinions you hear are thought up off the top of the head of either the caller or the host. They offer no insight because they have no time to prepare their thoughts. It's garbage.

:ass
"Hey, I resemble that remark!"

Hangar18
02-18-2003, 09:14 AM
what did this survey really find out?
Why didnt they just ask me what the problem was? here it is:

1. Perception of Jerry Reinsdorf. fans think your darth vader
2. Old Comiskey had charm and character. fans had fun there,
and yes, drank beer, but there was nothing else to do there, there were some bad teams for a while.
3. Tore old one down, and built one that had No Charm and No Character. Fans now simply had to watch the only other thing that was good about the place. The GOOD team on the field.
4. Once JR caused the strike, Fans (being perceptive and NOT easily Fooled) simply stopped coming to the park. if you take away the only other good thing (the team) away from the fans, they wont come. Its Really That Simple.

HAS ANYONE NOTICED how this SoxFest was the most packed and most full of Buzz in years?? why is that? hmmmm, lets take a guess. They went out and got a very good, very important Pitcher (who theyve needed since 2000, but have denied/ignored the fact) Fans, Being Perceptive and Knowledgable, see this, and realize this is the best chance in a while weve got to do something this year.

Yes Jerry. its really that simple. Build a Nicer Ballpark...AND Build a better team. you must do BOTH. not just one or the Other.
Sox Fans are a little smarter than you think. IF you dont think so....break this team up w/o a Championship and I can predict 2004's attendance for you. Were not like the Sheep to the North. You should know this by now....cant understand why you spent all that money to find this out.

voodoochile
02-18-2003, 09:52 AM
Given JR's penchant for attracting families and for chasing away the hardcore fan I don't find this all that surprising. In general Families are more likely to consider many factors when going to a game (convenience, fun for the kids, amenities, safety, etc.) BEFORE they care about whetner a team is winning or losing.

JR just had wish fulfillment. He markets the team to families and then interviews those same families when asking about the team.

PHG had it right. Find out why the people NOT at the park arent't there and then you've got something to work on.

Big Shock - Mom didn't know what the score was when she was trying to watch 3 kids between the ages of 5 and 9 and make sure they were happy, fed and safe in a crowd of 20K+ strangers. Well done, JR...

How about posting one of your polls over here...

:reinsy
"So you suggest interviewing diehard fans and seeing what THEY want? Interesting concept, but it doesn't fit the image of the fans I want at the game. People like Randar and his fists can just stay home. I don't need them at my ballmall because the state makes up any difference in revenue lost due to unsold seats and I just HATE paying rent..."

Hangar18
02-18-2003, 10:08 AM
This is soooooooooooooo Stupid, I dont even want to talk about this anymore. How Stupid can this teams Mgmt Continue to be?
That had to be the best stat I heard yet this morning....
THe Sox were not seeing 2 Million Fans since 1993. I dont even have to let anyone wonder why that was...... ALso, Doesnt anyone over at 35th and Shields figure that Maybe, Just MAYBE, that Hardcore Fans also have families? and Friends? Ive personally dragged my nephew and little cousin to games regularly. Guess What? they are now sox fans and follow the team regularly. Can you imagine if 50 of us stopped bringing others to the game? Multiply that by lets say 5 people each. Thats 250 People right there. 250 affected by only 50 people. What happens when you Alienate 50 hardcore Fans? do the Math Jerry

voodoochile
02-18-2003, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
This is soooooooooooooo Stupid, I dont even want to talk about this anymore. How Stupid can this teams Mgmt Continue to be?
That had to be the best stat I heard yet this morning....
THe Sox were not seeing 2 Million Fans since 1993. I dont even have to let anyone wonder why that was...... ALso, Doesnt anyone over at 35th and Shields figure that Maybe, Just MAYBE, that Hardcore Fans also have families? and Friends? Ive personally dragged my nephew and little cousin to games regularly. Guess What? they are now sox fans and follow the team regularly. Can you imagine if 50 of us stopped bringing others to the game? Multiply that by lets say 5 people each. Thats 250 People right there. 250 affected by only 50 people. What happens when you Alienate 50 hardcore Fans? do the Math Jerry

That's if those 50 people only bring 5 people to the park each YEAR. I personally purchase at least 28 tickets a year (only 7 of which I use for myself).

Since most people don't go to the game by themself I think your loss of tickets would be much much higher...

Dadawg_77
02-18-2003, 10:23 AM
The thing with stats vs reality is stats tell you the reality. What I think has been lost is the context of the stats. What is the confidence level of the survey, how random is it, what are the questions (you can bias any survey by asking the right questions), what is the general population which the survey sample is being taken from. In baseball you usally don't have much of a disconect between reality and stats, since the context is widly known.

voodoochile
02-18-2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
The thing with stats vs reality is stats tell you the reality. What I think has been lost is the context of the stats. What is the confidence level of the survey, how random is it, what are the questions (you can bias any survey by asking the right questions), what is the general population which the survey sample is being taken from. In baseball you usally don't have much of a disconect between reality and stats, since the context is widly known.

:reinsy
"I don't understand how my integrity can be questioned in this case. We instructed the pollers to stand by the SUV/van slots in the parking lots and interview blond women with diaper bags for several consecutive nights. I'm SHOCKED that you would even THINK I would rig this poll..."

Hangar18
02-18-2003, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
That's if those 50 people only bring 5 people to the park each YEAR. I personally purchase at least 28 tickets a year (only 7 of which I use for myself).

Since most people don't go to the game by themself I think your loss of tickets would be much much higher...

Yes. but thats also assuming that they will go to more than just 1 game a year. ALso...those 5 new fans youve brought...will now come on their own, and bring people with them. THis number starts to grow exponentially. Conversely, and this is Where Jerry Reinsdorf and the Marketing Team should be looking at closely, when you alienate your Hard Core Fan base (like theyve been doing the last few years) this number starts to Grow in the Opposite Direction. You start to see Dwindling Attendance Exponentially. At this point, the only thing that will bring them back Immediately, is a Realistically Winning Team. And only then it will be somewhat short term as the fringe fans will stop coming as soon as the winning stops. How do you prevent them from leaving? Hmmm, build a nice ball park.

Hullett_Fan
02-18-2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Finally, some friendly advice...

Do yourself a favor. Stop listening to sports blab radio. 90 percent of the opinions you hear are thought up off the top of the head of either the caller or the host. They offer no insight because they have no time to prepare their thoughts. It's garbage.

:ass
"Hey, I resemble that remark!"


AMEN to that! There's too much good music out there to waste time listening to the idiots on Score or ESPN 1000. And if you want to 'hear' baseball opinions/knowledge/info...come here! :D:

Iwritecode
02-18-2003, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
While checking the news/weather this am, I heard the score talking about Arvias story on Reinsdorfs "secret surveys".
Remember a couple weeks ago, when Uncle Jerry made the comment about him wanting "to win more than fans do". Well, this apparently came from a survey the Sox have been paying top dollar to have done. That idiot Murphy on SCR, is making great pains to make sure he points out that this study has found that most Sox Fans at the game dont know the score, players are etc, just like the Fans we make fun of daily up on the north side. To his (Murphy) credit, he did point out that MAYBE the hard core fans have been Alienated. The Sox have discovered that they havnt had 2 mill in attendance since the 93 season. Duh...I could tell them why that is. BECAUSE OF THE STRIKE. among other things.... WHo the heck were they asking questions of?
Certainly not me....

Actually, I think they have it reversed. The hardcore fans are the ones that are still going and the casual fans are the ones they need to attract back. It's impossible to fill any ballpark with 40,000+ hardcore fans. The casual fans are really the ones that give teams large attendance numbers.

I'd really like to know where these surveys took place. At the park or outside the park? If it was at the park, my theory would be that the hardcore fans didn't want to waste their time filling it out (I remember being asked to fill one out last year) and would rather watch the game. The casual fans (my wife would be a perfect example of this) got bored and decided to fill it out for something to do. If they did it outside the park they got all the people that don't care about the team that much in the first place.

Lastly, IMO if you look at the attendance the past few years it goes right along with how well the team was playing. The better they played, the more it went up, thus proving that when the team wins, the fans will come. In 2000 the Sox had the second biggest increase in attendance in all of MLB. Something most radio hosts seem to forget. Only Seattle (with their new stadium) had a bigger jump. Sure it didn't reach 2 mil for the year but that's a lot to expect when they had such a low season ticket base. In 2001 the season ticket base jumped quite a bit because everyone though they would continue on with the previous year's success. The team started spiralling down, so did the attendance. In 2002 they had nothing to build on from the previous year so again they had an average team and mediocre attendance. This year the Sox finally look like they are commited to making a run now and the fans see it. Plus the all-star game is here. I would not be surprised to see the attendance break the 2 mil mark this year. If the team starts winning, maybe 2.5 mil.

:smile:

gosox41
02-18-2003, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
While checking the news/weather this am, I heard the score talking about Arvias story on Reinsdorfs "secret surveys".
Remember a couple weeks ago, when Uncle Jerry made the comment about him wanting "to win more than fans do". Well, this apparently came from a survey the Sox have been paying top dollar to have done. That idiot Murphy on SCR, is making great pains to make sure he points out that this study has found that most Sox Fans at the game dont know the score, players are etc, just like the Fans we make fun of daily up on the north side. To his (Murphy) credit, he did point out that MAYBE the hard core fans have been Alienated. The Sox have discovered that they havnt had 2 mill in attendance since the 93 season. Duh...I could tell them why that is. BECAUSE OF THE STRIKE. among other things.... WHo the heck were they asking questions of?
Certainly not me....



So Jerry is trying to figure out a way to get the very people he and his management staff alienated back to the park? Here's an idea Jerry, it's called "marketing." Sure the Sox have a "marketing" department but it's run by that imbecile Rob Gallas.

JR could take all the polls he wants. Here are two facts. First, fans like to be associated with a winner, especially the casual fan. You'd think he'd learn this from the Bulls.

Second, the Sox marketing department has got to be one of the worst ever for a professional sports franchise. Here's a team in the third biggest city in the country, that draws a lot of tourists and the Sox can't draw a minimum of 2 million people a year after winning the division.

Look in the mirror Jerry the problem is you and the way you alienate most of the fan base. Then look at the idiots you hire under you. It's amazing how you put loyalty issues wiht people over business how actual performance. You'd be the ideal person to work for. Just kiss your a** and don't do any work at all. Rob Gallas is awaful at his job. Look at the guy you got running marketing for the Bulls, Steve Schanwald. He keeps that team selling tickets despite the efforts of Jerry Krause to make the team the joke of the league.

Jerry, if Rob Gallas had any clue whatsoever, you wouldn't need to run these expensive polls and maybe could have invested the money to make the team better and sell tickets that way. Changin the upper deck isn't going to have much long term effect on attendence. Your marketing department and the quality of the team is what's going to sell tickets.

Here's a perfect example. WSCR said the Cubs are having a day where they have a give away for dolls clothes from that popular doll store. It's a good way to get young kids in the ball park and (with their families, the market yuou want to appeal to) all the while selling tickets and creadting a new generation of younfg(female) fans who otherwise may not care about baseball but now associate the Cubs with a fun experience.

Bob

Iwritecode
02-18-2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Here's a perfect example. WSCR said the Cubs are having a day where they have a give away for dolls clothes from that popular doll store. It's a good way to get young kids in the ball park and (with their families, the market yuou want to appeal to) all the while selling tickets and creadting a new generation of younfg(female) fans who otherwise may not care about baseball but now associate the Cubs with a fun experience.

Bob

Please tell me it's not that American Girl store... I really don't want to be dragged to a sCrUBS game just because I have 3 daughters...

gosox41
02-18-2003, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Please tell me it's not that American Girl store... I really don't want to be dragged to a sCrUBS game just because I have 3 daughters...

Actually I think that's is the store.

See White Sox marketing, another opportunity lost. Now a loyal Sox fan is going to have to buy tickets to the other team in Chicago because his daughters (casual fans) want the doll clothes. These are the family crowds you want in your ballpark, isn't it? Way to screw up again, Rob. It would be a shame to see a Cubs fan take his 3 daughters out to Comiskey for a dress for her dolls.

Bob

Dan H
02-18-2003, 12:59 PM
Focus groups and surveys. If Jerry Reinsdorf had any understanding of the average fan, he wouldn't need either. He and his organization don't get it. They never will.

Iwritecode
02-18-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Actually I think that's is the store.

See White Sox marketing, another opportunity lost. Now a loyal Sox fan is going to have to buy tickets to the other team in Chicago because his daughters (casual fans) want the doll clothes. These are the family crowds you want in your ballpark, isn't it? Way to screw up again, Rob. It would be a shame to see a Cubs fan take his 3 daughters out to Comiskey for a dress for her dolls.

Bob

Thu. 6/26 Milwaukee 1:20
Wrigley Field Exclusive limited-edition American Girl doll-sized
Chicago Cubs Baseball Jersey and Cap* (1st 5,000 girls, 14 & younger)

Well, I guess I won't have to worry about it. First of all, it's a weekday game. Second, I really don't want to get my daughters Cubs jerseys for their dolls. If they were Sox jerseys it might be a different story.

I did notice that the Sox don't have a list of their promotions on the official site yet though. :angry:

SuckerforSox
02-18-2003, 03:12 PM
I'm sure we could all go blue in the face talking about the ballpark, and how to get people to come there. I agree that the people they need to concentrate their efforts on are those who do not come to the games now. Diehards like us will go no matter what the park looks like because we re there to watch the field. Most families who do go already have enough to keep them busy if they want to. I don't think redoing the upper deck is the answer. I live in Arlington Hts., and grew up a N. Side Sox fan. The biggest complaint I hear is how difficult it is to get to the games. I leave work early and leave my house 2 hours before the game to get there. I don't mind because I am sick, but most people don't have my obsession. Especially if you are talking about doing this with kids on a week night after work multiple time a year.

Has anyone thought about taking the money from U.S. Cellular and starting over in a more desireable location such as the near south side but by the loop. I give Jerry credit for admiting he made some mistakes with the ballpark, but if your going to fix them than fix the real problems. The perception, right or wrong is that going to Sox games is inconvienent. If you moved the park people:
- Take the train from the suburbs all over Chicagoland and walk to the game.
- People working downtown could leave work and walk to the game, and not even move their cars.
- All the new housing by Michigan and State St. could walk to the game.
- These are the people who have disposable income to spend on baseball games, and Corporations based downtown would be very interested as well.

There is land available in the now empty unused train yard south of downtown. It seems like they should have made this decision 15 years ao but if Jerry really wanted to get it right then maybe he should consider trying to start over completely.

Hangar18
02-18-2003, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by SuckerforSox

Has anyone thought about taking the money from U.S. Cellular and starting over in a more desireable location such as the near south side but by the loop. I give Jerry credit for admiting he made some mistakes with the ballpark, but if your going to fix them than fix the real problems. The perception, right or wrong is that going to Sox games is inconvienent. If you moved the park people:
- Take the train from the suburbs all over Chicagoland and walk to the game.
- People working downtown could leave work and walk to the game, and not even move their cars.
- All the new housing by Michigan and State St. could walk to the game.
- These are the people who have disposable income to spend on baseball games, and Corporations based downtown would be very interested as well.

There is land available in the now empty unused train yard south of downtown. It seems like they should have made this decision 15 years ao but if Jerry really wanted to get it right then maybe he should consider trying to start over completely.

Not to brag, but when I was a kid, I remembered the area of the South Loop, past Harrison along State Street being an eyesore, and thinking what a great place that would be for a ball park. Im not Kidding. Then only a couple years later, the city wanted to build a combination Bears/Sox stadium there. The Bears wanted to much $$$ donated towards themselves, so the Project never went anywhere. Then of course, Developers turned it into the Dearborn Station Project we see now. Oh how things couldve been different had they built there. They had a 2nd chance in the early 80's, but again, that never went anywhere. Their last chance Im afraid, may have just come and Gone like the many summer winds thru our Fair city. The Sox had a 10yr "escape" clause in which they couldve gotten out of their lease, but chose to instead Extend it. Hell, their best chance Really came, when the Bears were squawking about needing an new stadium. We couldve Retro Fitted Comiskey to fit the Bears, and REBUILT a BETTER, EFFICIENT, Up-to-the-minute Comiskey back where it originally was. We would use the land year round (instead of just 10x a year now for the Bears) Nope.....that window also slammed shut on us. Now, everytime I drive down LSD towards downtown, Im forced to look at that Giant, Hideous, Monstrosity looming over what was once Soldier Field. That Place Is UGLY. Ive said it since the day they showed the plans. Now bear fans will know the Sox Fans Plight. all that public land being used by a Private Corporation. thats great. Soldier Field will be the Comiskey Park of Football.

Cheryl
02-18-2003, 03:53 PM
You know what? I think I took that survey. At the ballpark. There were people asking survey questions as you walked in. This was a couple of seasons ago. If you answered them you got a coupon for a half price ticket or something.

Which is hardly a focus group. It was a not at all scientific random survey of people coming into the ballpark. I dont even remember the questions, but I doubt I answered in any sort of way that could be construed as 'family friendly.'

maurice
02-18-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by SuckerforSox
If you moved the park people:
- Take the train from the suburbs all over Chicagoland and walk to the game.
- People working downtown could leave work and walk to the game, and not even move their cars.
- All the new housing by Michigan and State St. could walk to the game.
- These are the people who have disposable income to spend on baseball games, and Corporations based downtown would be very interested as well.

Aside from the obvious (wasting hundreds of millions of dollars), it is difficult to understand how moving the park only a few miles and into a more congested area would make it "more convenient." In response to your specific points:

- There is no Metra station in the South Loop, though a small number of trains coming from the south stop near Soldier Field. I don't see how it's more convenient to walk several miles from Chicago train stations to the South Loop than it is to take the Red Line to the Cell. Also, folks going to a Sox game from Chicago, Evanston, Oak Park, etc. are more likely to take a CTA train than a Metra train anyway. Assuming most folks from the other burbs would continue to drive anyway (a safe bet), the parking situation at the Cell is probably the best in pro sports, and certainly better than the South Loop (Soldier Field parking).

- It takes more time (and a heck of a lot more effort) to walk from the Loop to the South Loop than it does to take the Red Line from the Loop to 35th Street (about 15 minutes).

- All the new housing in Bridgeport and Bronzeville can already walk to the game.

- I realize that this is news to most people, but the cost of most new houses in Bridgeport / Bronzeville is between $400,000 and $1 million. Most of the new condos and townhouses in the South Loop can be had for between $250,000 and $650,000. In addition, there doesn't appear to be a correlation between corporate interest and the location of a stadium. Corporatons were plenty interested in buying season tickets to see Jordan at the pre-gentrification West Side.

SuckerforSox
02-18-2003, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Aside from the obvious (wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars), it is difficult to understand how moving the park only a few miles and into a more congested area would make it "more convenient." In response to your specific points:

- There is no Metra station in the South Loop, though a small number of trains coming from the south stop near Soldier Field. I don't see how it's more convenient to walk several miles from Chicago train stations to the South Loop than it is to take the Red Line to the Cell. Also, folks going to a Sox game from Chicago, Evanston, Oak Park, etc. are more likely to take a CTA train than a Metra train anyway. Assuming most folks from the other burbs would continue to drive anyway (a safe bet), the parking situation at the Cell is probably the best in pro sports, and certainly better than the South Loop (Soldier Field parking).

- It takes more time (and a heck of a lot more effort) to walk from the Loop to the South Loop than it does to take the Red Line from the Loop to 35th Street (about 15 minutes).

- All the new housing in Bridgeport and Bronzeville can already walk to the game.

- I realize that this is news to most people, but the cost of most new houses in Bridgeport / Bronzeville is between $400,000 and $1 million. Most of the new condos and townhouses in the South Loop can be had for between $250,000 and $650,000. In addition, there doesn't appear to be a correlation between corporate interest and the location of a stadium. Corporatons were plenty interested in buying season tickets to see Jordan at the pre-gentrification West Side.

I agree with you that the parking situation at the Cell is fantastic. I don't know how many times I have tried to tell everyone this. It probably takes less time for me to get home from there than it would from Wrigley, but I wouldn't know because I don't go there. People don't want to try and go there though. It is tough to fight traffic in the evenings to get there.

But If you built the stadium N. of Roosevelt you would be near the trains. Taylor St. and the river would be the best location. Within 7-8 blocks of both Union and LaSalle St. stations, and you could still take the CTA from Evanston, N. Side or wherever. My 2 hour trip could be cut to less than 1 hour on a train.

I have been excited to see Bridgeport start to revive as well. However, think about the people who are buying those expensive houses and those who are buying the condos in the south loop. If you have a family and are spending that much on a house how many games can you afford. Its the condo dwellers without kids that can aford to go out. Plus the sheer number of housing units is far greater in the south loop.

You have to realize that people downtown, whether working or living, will not go out of their way to go to a Sox game now. There is the perception that it is in a bad neighborhood. Whether it is right or wrong it exists. However if they could go out to dinner and walk to the game it might be a diferent story. Plus, if the new people in Bridgeport want to go to a game this location would not be too far away for them either.

maurice
02-18-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by SuckerforSox
If you built the stadium N. of Roosevelt you would be near the trains. Taylor St. and the river would be the best location. Within 7-8 blocks of both Union and LaSalle St. stations, and you could still take the CTA from Evanston, N. Side or wherever. My 2 hour trip could be cut to less than 1 hour on a train.

But you can take the train now. It takes the same amount of time (or maybe less time) to take the Red Line el from the Loop to the Cell as it does to walk a mile (7-8 blocks) from a train station to Taylor St. In fact, the walk to and from the Red Line is a heck of a lot safer than the trek down Canal (or whatever) to Taylor. Try it some time.

However, think about the people who are buying those expensive houses and those who are buying the condos in the south loop. If you have a family and are spending that much on a house how many games can you afford. Its the condo dwellers without kids that can aford to go out.

:?:

The guy with a wife and kids in the $1 million house on the corner has a heck of a lot more disposible income than I do (condo and no kids). Besides, if you and three other family members go to a game that's arguably four times more valuable to the club than a single, condo owner going to a game. In other words, a single person would have to attend four games to be considered equal to a family of four. Besides, the Sox have given up the yuppie crowd to the scrubs in favor of attracting families, probably for this very reason.

Plus the sheer number of housing units is far greater in the south loop.

This is possible, but I'm not so sure. The area around the Cell is mostly residential. The South Loop retains a very high (though shrinking) proportion of commercial buildings, vacant buildings, vacant land, and other non-residential space. Besides, as you point out, the units in the South Loop are more likely to be occupied by singles or couples without children (fewer potential fans per unit).

You have to realize that people downtown, whether working or living, will not go out of their way to go to a Sox game now. There is the perception that it is in a bad neighborhood. Whether it is right or wrong it exists. However if they could go out to dinner and walk to the game it might be a diferent story.

It's significantly cheaper to change a false image than to build a new stadium, especially since the Sox already have publicists (albeit crappy ones) on the payroll. The reality is that Taylor and the river is certainly more dangerous and isolated than Bridgeport.

BTW: if you know any "people downtown" who would like referrences to good restaurants within walking distance of the Cell, let me know. Bridgeport is one of the better dining neighborhoods in the city, and runs the gamut from fancy Italian to cheap tacos / gyros.

:cool:

SuckerforSox
02-18-2003, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by maurice
But you can take the train now. It takes the same amount of time (or maybe less time) to take the Red Line el from the Loop to the Cell as it does to walk a mile (7-8 blocks) from a train station to Taylor St. In fact, the walk to and from the Red Line is a heck of a lot safer than the trek down Canal (or whatever) to Taylor. Try it some time.



:?:

The guy with a wife and kids in the $1 million house on the corner has a heck of a lot more disposible income than I do (condo and no kids). Besides, if you and three other family members go to a game that's arguably four times more valuable to the club than a single, condo owner going to a game. In other words, a single person would have to attend four games to be considered equal to a family of four. Besides, the Sox have given up the yuppie crowd to the scrubs in favor of attracting families, probably for this very reason.



This is possible, but I'm not so sure. The area around the Cell is mostly residential. The South Loop retains a very high (though shrinking) proportion of commercial buildings, vacant buildings, vacant land, and other non-residential space. Besides, as you point out, the units in the South Loop are more likely to be occupied by singles or couples without children (fewer potential fans per unit).



It's significantly cheaper to change a false image than to build a new stadium, especially since the Sox already have publicists (albeit crappy ones) on the payroll. The reality is that Taylor and the river is certainly more dangerous and isolated than Bridgeport.

BTW: if you know any "people downtown" who would like referrences to good restaurants within walking distance of the Cell, let me know. Bridgeport is one of the better dining neighborhoods in the city, and runs the gamut from fancy Italian to cheap tacos / gyros.

:cool:

You have to walk 5-6 block to get to the red line from Union Station. Plus the walk down Canal would not be so bad with a new ballpark there, and others walking with you. Also there are plans to extend the riverwalk all the way to bridgeport. That would be another good way to get there from the train stations. You could even have boats setup to take people the way they take them to Michigan Ave for work.

Taylor and the river isn't more dangerous. There just isn't anything there yet, but there is plenty very close by. The Sox have tried to get people to come to Bridgeport. It isn't working. It is not a good location if you are coming from the suburbs. I know there are FEW decent resturants in the area, but you aren't going to get any poeple to come down there for an evening on the town. It just isn't place most people want to go and hang out. However the downtown and printer's row areas are.

The reason the commercial building are shinking is because more residentil is going up. The sheer number of people you have in this area both living and working is far greater than Bridgeport. A ballpark in this area would only help the growth. Plus, I would always take the single and retired people over families. The Sox get the families on the weekends now and the park fills up. It is the weeknights where they really struggle. Little kids aren't a great market for games that go past 10:00 on a weeknight. This would give you many more fans on weeknights who don't want to wander into the "scary" Bridgeport area on a weeknight.

Daver
02-18-2003, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by SuckerforSox
This would give you many more fans on weeknights who don't want to wander into the "scary" Bridgeport area on a weeknight.

The scary Bridgeport facade is going to change rather rapidly in the next ten years,in fact it has already begun.The project I am working on now at Roosevelt and Indiana is the second of what will eventually be 8 high rise condo towers,as well as some low rise townhomes,right across the street from Mayor Daleys home,all being pushed by the mayor.The next project has already had soil samples taken,at 31st and State,a similar project with less number of buildings,but they will be taller.The plan is to link these two projects eventually with some other high rise projects going on in between the two in the south loop area,with the general plan to make the south loop all the way into Bridgeport a middle class residential area.

SuckerforSox
02-18-2003, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by daver
The scary Bridgeport facade is going to change rather rapidly in the next ten years,in fact it has already begun.The project I am working on now at Roosevelt and Indiana is the second of what will eventually be 8 high rise condo towers,as well as some low rise townhomes,right across the street from Mayor Daleys home,all being pushed by the mayor.The next project has already had soil samples taken,at 31st and State,a similar project with less number of buildings,but they will be taller.The plan is to link these two projects eventually with some other high rise projects going on in between the two in the south loop area,with the general plan to make the south loop all the way into Bridgeport a middle class residential area.

The developments by Roosevelt are the ones I am talking about that would help support a South Loop ballpark. Eight more high rise condos within walking distance would be great. I hate to bring up Wrigley, but that is part of what makes it so popular. All the people living right there. In the South Loop you could have that, and have people who work right there too.

Lip Man 1
02-18-2003, 08:11 PM
Folks, this is an interesting discussion but somewhat futile don't you think?

Unless Uncle Jerry decides to antie up his own money (a la Peter Magowan in S.F.) and build his own ballpark, the city of Chicago and the Illinois Sports Stadium Authority will NOT help to get a new park built.

Plus the Sox extended their lease for another fifteen years.

Finally the 68 million from U.S. Cellular basically amounts to nothing when you consider new stadiums are being constructed in the range of 400 million bucks!

My take is basically that I'd love to see the stadium improved and so forth but if the Sox had a team that had a legtimate chance to get to and win a World Series and was a consistent contender they could play in an alley and draw forty thousand a game.

You wonder what might have happened with the franchise if Mayor Daley's idea back in the late 60's of building a new stadium IN THE LAKE connected to the city with causeways was implimented.

Lip

Irishsox1
02-18-2003, 08:13 PM
I took the survey about 2 months ago. I was contacted by telephone at home on a Tuesday night by a telephone research company out of Colorado. I was asked at least 70 questions about the Sox. The questions ranged from who my favorite Sox player is, what should the team do to get better, problems with the new stadium, if the attack on KC's coach would make me not want to go to games, how I actually get to the games. A very, very wide varity of questions. I answered every question honestly and was very happy to get somethings off my chest. The only problem I came across was when I was asked who was my favorite Sox player of all time. I gave my usual answer: Chet Lemon. Well, Chet was not an option at all, and I had to answer from a list of Sox greats. I actually said Maggs. I can't believe it but Maggs has crept past Frank, Fisk, and the best. I asked the tele-researcher how the other calls were going. He said most callers complained about the bland stadium and that if the Sox played in Wrigley that they would be the "popular" team. The guy on the Score and all sports talk radio shows are dopes who need something to talk about. If you want to get back at them, don't listen and don't talk about them.

Daver
02-18-2003, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1


You wonder what might have happened with the franchise if Mayor Daley's idea back in the late 60's of building a new stadium IN THE LAKE connected to the city with causeways was implimented.

Lip

That was a pipe dream that would never happen,the Army Corps. of Engineers would never allow it.Not even congress has been able to slow down the Corps. of Engineers.

Viva Magglio
02-18-2003, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I cannot begin to describe to you the ANGER and FRUSTRATION I got this morning, driving to work, and listening to this BS on the Radio. I can see why lots of people at wsi argue on stats vs. reality. The White Sox are looking at pure stats...when they should be looking at reality. Just Win.

Why didn't Fred strangle Murph?

Brian26
02-18-2003, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I don't blame you for being upset. I would like to add just a few points and offer some friendly advice.
Do yourself a favor. Stop listening to sports blab radio. 90 percent of the opinions you hear are thought up off the top of the head of either the caller or the host. They offer no insight because they have no time to prepare their thoughts. It's garbage.

That's one of the most profound comments I've ever read on this site, and it's 100% true. I've listened to Mike Murphy occassionally, and I will give him credit for sometimes doing his homework and trying to prepare different theories to discuss. Everything else on that station is total garbage. Same thing applies for the afternoon show on AM 1000.

maurice
02-19-2003, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by SuckerforSox
You have to walk 5-6 block to get to the red line from Union Station. Plus the walk down Canal would not be so bad with a new ballpark there, and others walking with you.

:?:

Union Station / LaSalle Station to Taylor & River = approx. 1 full mile. (The trip from NW Station / Randolph Station is significantly further.)

Union Station / NW Station to Red Line = approx. 1/2 mile. (The trip from LaSalle Station / Randolph Station is significantly shorter.) I used to walk this twice a day, every week day.

Red Line to the Cell = approx. 1/8 mile (right down the bridge, past the ticket scalpers, and across Wentworth).

I assure you, the walk to the Red Line through the Loop and to the park with many other fans and past numerous police officers is quite safe, notwithstanding folks' uninformed feeling that it's "scary." You really should try it some time, especially since you (like me) seem to enjoy taking trains and walking. Kids, in particular, love riding the el.

As far as I know, the Sox incompetent PR department has done nothing to encourage this (probably for the typically shortsighted reason that it would cost them a substantial parking fee). In any event, it certainly would cost less to enlighen folks than the $400+ million cost of a new stadium.

Also there are plans to extend the riverwalk all the way to bridgeport.

You're quite right. Portions of the riverwalk recently were completed in Chinatown and Bridgeport, though the path is not yet contiguous. It will be quite some time before they link Union Station to Chinatown. It should be very nice.

Taylor and the river isn't more dangerous. There just isn't anything there yet, but there is plenty very close by.

:?:

I'd much rather walk through the Loop and a residential area with virtually no crime (Bridgeport) than a vacant-but-developing area next to a UIC / Greektown community with a long history of rapes and robberies (Taylor & River), especially if I'm with small children.

Originally posted by Lip Man 1
My take is basically that I'd love to see the stadium improved and so forth but if the Sox had a team that had a legtimate chance to get to and win a World Series and was a consistent contender they could play in an alley and draw forty thousand a game.

JR used to understand this. His recent flip flop is pretty disturbing.

Originally posted by daver
[The stadium in the lake] was a pipe dream that would never happen,the Army Corps. of Engineers would never allow it.Not even congress has been able to slow down the Corps. of Engineers.

Right. The city has planned a lot of lake projects over the years, but gets shut down every time. It was a pretty bad idea anyway. Imagine the traffic congestion.