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kevingrt
02-13-2003, 08:55 PM
Now who should start at catcher: Miguel Olivo, Sandy Alomar Jr. or Josh Paul?

Here is my analysis:

I seriously think Alomar Jr should get the starting job again, and the Sox should be moving Olivo into the position slowly. The catching position is one of the worst positions to move someone in very quickly. It is probably one of the most grueling and toughest position on the defense end because of what you have to do and think. You have to get the signs from the bench coach or if you are Alomar JR you give out the signs to the pitcher. You have to remember who is on base at all times too. Olivo I don't think yet has the ability to help get a pitcher through a tough inning or control a pitchers tempo. Sandy would best fit the job now and slowly get Olivo into it around June.

Also send Paul down to Triple AA Charlotte, and see how he does. If he is amazing consider bringing him up. Besides that maybe trade him, or see if he has the patience to wait till next year so then their can be a catcher by committee type thing. That is if Olivo isn't a solid good player who deserves a full-time starting job. But I don't think that will happen by next year. Paul is a good player and might be useful on another team, but I would like to see him stay in Chicago even though eh has only thrown out 21% of base stealer's in his four years in Chicago.

Review: Stick with Alomar to start and slowly ease Olivo into the starting job. Keep Paul down in Charlotte only if he lites it up, then consider him.

Thanks Guys, Comments?

delben91
02-13-2003, 09:21 PM
I don't think the concern with Olivo is on the defensive side, but rather on the offensive side. That isn't to say he won't be a solid bat in the lineup (especially in the bottom third of the order), but he might not pick it up right away. The reports I've heard from our resident experts (Randar, Kermit, Vic, et al) say that this kid is exceptional in most defensive areas, and lacking only in experience in others.

As for Josh Paul. Try and stick him in Charlotte for insurance purposes, but if he gets claimed, not really a big deal. I don't think we'd have a problem with one of the catchers we signed to a minor league deal with daubach a few weeks ago coming up in that they would have to try really hard to be worse than Josh Paul behind the plate.

duke of dorwood
02-13-2003, 10:43 PM
It would appear Alomar will catch Colon.
After that it will be the Manual shuffle

fuzzy_patters
02-13-2003, 10:59 PM
If it were me, I would make Alomar my regualar catcher but give him frequent rests to keep him healthy. I remember Hawk mentioning in 1990 or 1991 when Pudge was hurt that the Sox pitchers ERA were a full run higher with Karko. Then, when Karko was older, I remember hearing the same thing about other Sox backup catchers. I haven't looked up the ERA of other teams pitchers when their backup catches, but it stands to reason it would be higher than when the starter catches. This is why I think the Sox best bet would be to go with the catcher most experienced in handling pitchers, and the one that probably has caught them the most, Alomar.

FarmerAndy
02-14-2003, 10:27 AM
Buehrle also mentioned that he really likes Alomar behind the plate.

I'm guessing that Alomar will catch 2 out of every 5 games, with Olivo taking care of the rest.

Hopefully Josh Paul will be sent to Charolette and kept there, unless, God forbid, we should need him in the case of injury.

maurice
02-14-2003, 10:32 AM
I don't really care who catches opening day, as long as it's not Josh Paul, but I'd be shocked if Alomar catches as many as 80 games in 2003. So, if Olivo plays well enough to stay in the majors all year, he should start the majority of games, making him essentially the Sox "starting catcher."

Randar68
02-14-2003, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
It would appear Alomar will catch Colon.
After that it will be the Manual shuffle

Has this been reported somewhere? As I have said in previous threads, with Colon being the only native spanish speaker in the rotation, it would make sense to have Olivo catch him. We'll see I suppose...

Paulwny
02-14-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Has this been reported somewhere? As I have said in previous threads, with Colon being the only native spanish speaker in the rotation, it would make sense to have Olivo catch him. We'll see I suppose...

Also, doesn't make it easier on Olivo to catch a veteran pitcher who has been in all types of situations and won't get rattled.

TRL
02-14-2003, 11:14 AM
Most pitchers feel comfortable with a certain catcher. In Alomar they will be getting a guy who knows how to call a game and has a lot of experience. It would seem reasonable that Alomar would catch Colon because they were together in Cleveland. Sandy's a little old to be catching too many games, so I would anticipate that Olivo will get plenty of games behind the plate. There is the option of carrying three catchers, but I don't see that happening. It will be interesting to see if any of the nonroster invitees to spring training show the club anything.

maurice
02-14-2003, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by TRL
There is the option of carrying three catchers, but I don't see that happening.

Agreed. There's no point cutting Rios, Harris, or a pitcher just to keep Josh Paul. Barring injury, Olivo and Alomar should be able to get the job done.

Olivo caught 109 games last year, even though he was banged up to start the season. If he plays well enough to match that total, Alomar only needs to catch 53 games, spaced out over the course of an entire season.

jeremyb1
02-14-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by delben91
I don't think the concern with Olivo is on the defensive side, but rather on the offensive side. That isn't to say he won't be a solid bat in the lineup (especially in the bottom third of the order), but he might not pick it up right away. The reports I've heard from our resident experts (Randar, Kermit, Vic, et al) say that this kid is exceptional in most defensive areas, and lacking only in experience in others.

As for Josh Paul. Try and stick him in Charlotte for insurance purposes, but if he gets claimed, not really a big deal. I don't think we'd have a problem with one of the catchers we signed to a minor league deal with daubach a few weeks ago coming up in that they would have to try really hard to be worse than Josh Paul behind the plate.

olivo's biggest question mark has to be his game calling. kw reported that that was the reason he wasn't called up until september last year, buehrle recently expressed concern about throwing to him, and he and garland got terrible crossed up one game last season.

olivo's defense is solid so after that i guess his hitting is his next biggest question mark but i still don't consider it to be that much of a problem. with two seasons of AA, he's a relatively seasoned hitter. baseball prospectus' minor league equivalency numbers suggest he'll hit at least .250 this season. the thing you have to consider is that the position tends to be very weak offensively both on our roster and throughout the league so as long as olivo can hit .240 with the speed and gap power he showed in the minors, he'll be our best hitting catcher and will deserve a lot of playing time due to his potential.

hold2dibber
02-14-2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Agreed. There's no point cutting Rios, Harris, or a pitcher just to keep Josh Paul. Barring injury, Olivo and Alomar should be able to get the job done.

Olivo caught 109 games last year, even though he was banged up to start the season. If he plays well enough to match that total, Alomar only needs to catch 73 games, spaced out over the course of an entire season.

Mr. Math to the rescue! If Olivo can catch 109 games, Alomar will only have to catch 53. I would like to see Olivo catch 90-100, with Alomar catching 62-72 or so.

hold2dibber
02-14-2003, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
olivo's biggest question mark has to be his game calling. kw reported that that was the reason he wasn't called up until september last year, buehrle recently expressed concern about throwing to him, and he and garland got terrible crossed up one game last season.

If Olivo is the Sox' best option at C (and I think he probably is), than he's going to play. But because the Sox have a chance to contend this year, he shouldn't be out there screwing things up as he tries how to learn how to call a game -- Nosek or Cooper should be calling the pitches (at least some of the time) when Olivo is catching. He can learn by working with those two guys.

Mammoo
02-14-2003, 01:16 PM
I guess the veteran presence of Alomar is a good thing, but I'm sorry to see Josh Paul on the bubble again. :?: Williams and Manual obviously lack confidence in him. Perhaps if he was given an entire season in the bigs he would prove his worth.

If they prefer Olivo instead of Paul, thatís fine with me but to stunt the young guys' growth by bringing in Alomar is the wrong thing to do.

We'll see how Ghandi plays it.

moochpuppy
02-14-2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood

After that it will be the Manual shuffle

I've seen this dance. All it is is the Curly Shuffle with a little tinkering. :smile:

FarmerAndy
02-14-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Has this been reported somewhere? As I have said in previous threads, with Colon being the only native spanish speaker in the rotation, it would make sense to have Olivo catch him. We'll see I suppose...

??? Um, last time I checked Alomar was a Spanish speaking guy himself. (Not to mention the fact that he has alot of experience in catching Colon.)

PaleHoseGeorge
02-14-2003, 01:51 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I thought it was BUEHRLE who wanted Alomar catching for his starts. He was the one talking it up after the signing was announced. Isn't that the reason the Sox signed a veteran catcher who clearly can't do anything well anymore--be Buehrle's wet nurse?

Of course if the alternative is to let Josh Paul catch instead of Alomar, I guess I should be pleased with the arrangement. :smile:

Let's face it. If Olivo doesn't step up this summer, catcher will be the weakest position on the entire team. :(:

:rowand
"Woo hoo! I'm off the hook!"

jeremyb1
02-14-2003, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Mammoo
I guess the veteran presence of Alomar is a good thing, but I'm sorry to see Josh Paul on the bubble again. :?: Williams and Manual obviously lack confidence in him. Perhaps if he was given an entire season in the bigs he would prove his worth.

If they prefer Olivo instead of Paul, thatís fine with me but to stunt the young guys' growth by bringing in Alomar is the wrong thing to do.

We'll see how Ghandi plays it.

lets not talk up the possibility of growth coming from soon-to-be-28 josh paul. i really don't think he has much potential left at this point in his career. he has failed to hit better than average for a catcher, doesn't walk, and most of the time his throwing doesn't seem to be good enough for him to even play the catcher position. i'll be really happy if we can just cut ties with him this spring.

MarkEdward
02-14-2003, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
lets not talk up the possibility of growth coming from soon-to-be-28 josh paul. i really don't think he has much potential left at this point in his career. he has failed to hit better than average for a catcher, doesn't walk, and most of the time his throwing doesn't seem to be good enough for him to even play the catcher position. i'll be really happy if we can just cut ties with him this spring.

We can't cut him, though. It's almost a given that Alomar will go down to injury. Paul's the only insurance in case Sandy goes down.

You know, Tom Lampkin sure would look nice in a Sox uniform.

34 Inch Stick
02-14-2003, 03:56 PM
Alomar is the baseball equivalent of Chris Chandler. You know he is going to get hurt at some point in the season. The only question is when.

Do any of our young pitchers have a history with Olivo. If he has caught Wright or Rauch in the past, those are obvious starts for Olivo. Buhrle wants Alomar so that is an obvious start for Alomar. I don't know about the rest.

I think everyone is just assuming that Olivo is goint to be a good player. Last year was the only one in which he was an above average minor league hitter. He was only at AA last year. He is going to be a rookie. Taking all of this into consideration I think the Sox are taking a dangerous gamble that Olivo is going to be adequate this year. Under normal circumstances, I would say a guy with his resume might not even make the team out of spring training. I would think he would be in AAA for a little while to prove he can hit.

hold2dibber
02-14-2003, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Alomar is the baseball equivalent of Chris Chandler. You know he is going to get hurt at some point in the season. The only question is when.

Do any of our young pitchers have a history with Olivo. If he has caught Wright or Rauch in the past, those are obvious starts for Olivo. Buhrle wants Alomar so that is an obvious start for Alomar. I don't know about the rest.

I think everyone is just assuming that Olivo is goint to be a good player. Last year was the only one in which he was an above average minor league hitter. He was only at AA last year. He is going to be a rookie. Taking all of this into consideration I think the Sox are taking a dangerous gamble that Olivo is going to be adequate this year. Under normal circumstances, I would say a guy with his resume might not even make the team out of spring training. I would think he would be in AAA for a little while to prove he can hit.

I couldn't agree more, but its not like they have a lot of options. Olivo might prove okay, or he might prove he's a year away. But when the only alternative is Josh Paul (who never was and never will be an adequate MLB starter), the choice is obvious.

Lampkin would have been a great pickup.

jeremyb1
02-14-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
We can't cut him, though. It's almost a given that Alomar will go down to injury. Paul's the only insurance in case Sandy goes down.

You know, Tom Lampkin sure would look nice in a Sox uniform.

alomar's health is a problem but i think paul is out of options and we can't keep three catchers all season. i don't know what we do. these are the problems created by signing alomar instead of someone like chad kreuter.

kevingrt
02-14-2003, 04:30 PM
I have a question for you guys with the many of the replies on this message on this topic. Is pitch-calling considered "defense" or is it a totally different thing?

MarkEdward
02-14-2003, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
alomar's health is a problem but i think paul is out of options and we can't keep three catchers all season. i don't know what we do. these are the problems created by signing alomar instead of someone like chad kreuter.

I don't think we have to worry about Josh Paul not clearing waivers.

jeremyb1
02-14-2003, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
I don't think we have to worry about Josh Paul not clearing waivers.

oh. good point i didn't think of that. on one hand you never know what a team like the brewers or d-rays might do but it seems highly unlikely anyone will claim him. however, are you sure he can't refuse assignment and become a free agent since he no longer has options? my inclination is that he can.

SouthSideHitman
02-14-2003, 09:37 PM
I think that starting catcher will be Olivo's job to lose with Alomar tutoring him and, oh yeah catching maybe twice a week. I think Josh Paul will only be around if Olivo gets really good and we can afford a home town, pinch runner instead of a solid #2 backstop.

However, if Alomar gets hurt or Olivo fails to pan out, I could definitly se KW being let of the leash to get an above average catcher. As far as I know, Minaya still has to cut some payroll and he is shopping Barett. He may be a good fit come late May or June, assuming he hasn't been taken up. Hell, if Kenny can find the $, he'd be a great fit now! The only problem may be that Minaya wants to package Barett with Vidro or some other expensive infielder, but as time passes, he will probably crack.

Randar68
02-14-2003, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
??? Um, last time I checked Alomar was a Spanish speaking guy himself. (Not to mention the fact that he has alot of experience in catching Colon.)

Ummmmmmmmm.... Olivo is a native Spanish speaker who has not had a ton of experience and has had troubles with game calling.

So, you have 1 native speaking starters. Who do you put your young catcher who has only been in the US a couple of years with???

Alomar can clearly speak English on an established level. Olivo not only has communications issues, and but he has game calling issues. Why wouldn't you put your #1 and only spanish speaking starter with Olivo...

Last I checked, 1+1=2...

Mammoo
02-15-2003, 12:53 AM
It seems the consensus among you is that Josh Paul had a fair shot. I remember he was sent down in 2000 after having a great couple of months.

He's been getting jacked around ever since.

Maybe he should take up Spanish so better to communicate with Bartolo Colon.

http://www.youns.com/images/lucy/desiarnaz.jpg
"Our Secret Weapon"

EnricoPallazzo
02-15-2003, 01:19 AM
Maybe the Sox should have traded Buerhle for Bobby Estrada before the Braves stole him from the Phillies.

kevingrt
02-15-2003, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by EnricoPallazzo
Maybe the Sox should have traded Buerhle for Bobby Estrada before the Braves stole him from the Phillies.

Very good point! We would have already won the World Series!

voodoochile
02-15-2003, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by EnricoPallazzo
Maybe the Sox should have traded Buerhle for Bobby Estrada before the Braves stole him from the Phillies.

Then we could have traded Josh Paul for Millwood and everything would have been fine...

:versatile
"I'm worth Millwood. Heck, they would have had to throw in Maddux to offset the bonus they gained from adding such a versatile player..."

MarkEdward
02-15-2003, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
oh. good point i didn't think of that. on one hand you never know what a team like the brewers or d-rays might do but it seems highly unlikely anyone will claim him. however, are you sure he can't refuse assignment and become a free agent since he no longer has options? my inclination is that he can.

If he has no options left, than I guess he can refuse assignment. But why would he? The Brewers already have Machado and Bako, and Toby Hall will get most of the at-bats in Tampa. He won't become a starter on any major league team.

Besides, Paul probably knows that Alomar is fragile, and also knows that he's one injury away from making the Sox.

lighttowerpower1
02-15-2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Let's face it. If Olivo doesn't step up this summer, catcher will be the weakest position on the entire team. :(:


Yeah, I already miss the good old days of MJ's .200 BA

Randar68
02-16-2003, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by Mammoo
It seems the consensus among you is that Josh Paul had a fair shot. I remember he was sent down in 2000 after having a great couple of months.

He's been getting jacked around ever since.

Maybe he should take up Spanish so better to communicate with Bartolo Colon.


*****...

Maybe instead, he should learn the fundamental of his position and the art of situational hitting.... something that should only take him about 3 months to pick up, huh????

Bmr31
02-16-2003, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
*****...

Maybe instead, he should learn the fundamental of his position and the art of situational hitting.... something that should only take him about 3 months to pick up, huh????

Hey wait! These things never stopped Sammy Sosa from getting playing time. :?:

hold2dibber
02-16-2003, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by EnricoPallazzo
Maybe the Sox should have traded Buerhle for Bobby Estrada before the Braves stole him from the Phillies.

LOL! That damn Schuerholz is always a step ahead!

voodoochile
02-16-2003, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Hey wait! These things never stopped Sammy Sosa from getting playing time. :?:

And when Josh Paul can hit 60 HR's and drive in 140 RBI's it won't stop him either...

34 Inch Stick
02-17-2003, 12:28 PM
Here is how I think this thing is going to play out. Alomar and Paul will make the team out of spring training. When Alomar gets injured, as he is certain to do, Olivo will be brought up. Then when Sandy comes back from the DL the Sox will make their final decision on Paul. If he has played well during the year, keep him, if not, let Sandy come back.

Just like sending Borchard down out of spring training, I think this works for two reasons. 1) If he turns out to be phenomenal, you get extra time with him before he is eligible for free agency (Cubs have done this well with both Prior and Wood) 2) Even if he has a good spring, I would like to see him tear up AAA a little (again he has only 1 good year of hitting in AA).

Randar68
02-17-2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Here is how I think this thing is going to play out. Alomar and Paul will make the team out of spring training. When Alomar gets injured, as he is certain to do, Olivo will be brought up. Then when Sandy comes back from the DL the Sox will make their final decision on Paul. If he has played well during the year, keep him, if not, let Sandy come back.

Just like sending Borchard down out of spring training, I think this works for two reasons. 1) If he turns out to be phenomenal, you get extra time with him before he is eligible for free agency (Cubs have done this well with both Prior and Wood) 2) Even if he has a good spring, I would like to see him tear up AAA a little (again he has only 1 good year of hitting in AA).


IMO, Olivo will be on the roster come he!! or high water, whether they carry 3 catchers or not. I highly doubt Paul would be claimed on waivers....

Daver
02-17-2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
IMO, Olivo will be on the roster come he!! or high water, whether they carry 3 catchers or not. I highly doubt Paul would be claimed on waivers....

Some bottom feeder like Tampa Bay or Detroit would probably claim him,the real question is are the Sox really giving up anything?

Randar68
02-17-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by daver
Some bottom feeder like Tampa Bay or Detroit would probably claim him,the real question is are the Sox really giving up anything?

I fully expect them to carry 3 catchers for the first month. Personally, I feel the waiver fee would be worth more to the Sox than Josh...

Unfortunately, when Alomar gets hurt, then who do you have as the backup? Avecas? 2 rookie catchers?

Daver
02-17-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I fully expect them to carry 3 catchers for the first month. Personally, I feel the waiver fee would be worth more to the Sox than Josh...

Unfortunately, when Alomar gets hurt, then who do you have as the backup? Avecas? 2 rookie catchers?

Did they re-sign Mark Dellasandro,as scary as they may be?

34 Inch Stick
02-17-2003, 01:29 PM
Don't blaspheme my fellow former Wolfpack members. Without Mark, Art Aaron, Eric Simpson or that loser who sold out Q Dailey for taking computer games, we have very little to cheer about. However, Wolfpack football kicks off in '03

He's a guy from Taylor Street and he has some friends who will take you out on a hunting trip you will never forget. Like on that episode of the Soprano's when Chris and Paully take the Russian to the New Jersey woods.

hold2dibber
02-17-2003, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by daver
Did they re-sign Mark Dellasandro,as scary as they may be?

Delasandro - my hero. Sign me up as a charter member of F.O.D. (Friends Of Delasandro).