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Juan Pizarro
02-13-2003, 11:51 AM
Are any of you as tired as I am of all the national writers kissing Billy Beane's butt?

Rob Neyer and Baseball Prospectus are pretty much singing the same chorus over Beane's getting the best of the Sox in the Foulke-Koch trade.

Sorry if this has been hashed-over already, but I'm new and will start a fresh thread on being HAPPY FOULKE IS HISTORY!

Contrary to what our friends at Baseball Prospectus think, I believe deep down that Foulke is what they call in the horse
game a "bit spitter." Great in lowstakes claim races -- the K.C.s, Detroits of the world -- but death down the stretch when real
money is on the line.
The significant times in his career when he's gagged: Game 1 of the 2000 playoffs against the Mariners, when he coughed up a
lead.
The first game of a key three-game series in June 2001 in the Metrodome. He did it again later that year against the Twins.
In 2002, it looks like the Sox will open the season winning 2 out of 3 in Seattle. Foulke spits the bit in Game 3, after a
hair-raising escape in Game 1.
In the 2002 trip to Yankee Stadium, the first game of the series, with the Sox on the edge of contention, he coughs up another
one, this a six-out attempt. Tailspin, see ya later season.
I really don't care how he pitches for the A's; he just, in my mind, would never get over the hump in Chicago.

hold2dibber
02-13-2003, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Juan Pizarro
Are any of you as tired as I am of all the national writers kissing Billy Beane's butt?

Rob Neyer and Baseball Prospectus are pretty much singing the same chorus over Beane's getting the best of the Sox in the Foulke-Koch trade.

Sorry if this has been hashed-over already, but I'm new and will start a fresh thread on being HAPPY FOULKE IS HISTORY!

Contrary to what our friends at Baseball Prospectus think, I believe deep down that Foulke is what they call in the horse
game a "bit spitter." Great in lowstakes claim races -- the K.C.s, Detroits of the world -- but death down the stretch when real
money is on the line.
The significant times in his career when he's gagged: Game 1 of the 2000 playoffs against the Mariners, when he coughed up a
lead.
The first game of a key three-game series in June 2001 in the Metrodome. He did it again later that year against the Twins.
In 2002, it looks like the Sox will open the season winning 2 out of 3 in Seattle. Foulke spits the bit in Game 3, after a
hair-raising escape in Game 1.
In the 2002 trip to Yankee Stadium, the first game of the series, with the Sox on the edge of contention, he coughs up another
one, this a six-out attempt. Tailspin, see ya later season.
I really don't care how he pitches for the A's; he just, in my mind, would never get over the hump in Chicago.

Oh boy, here we go. :smile:

Let's just say I disagree. Every fan in every city can point to "crucial" games their closer blew. Yankee fans can point to Mariano Rivera's blown save in game 7 of the '01 WS, for example. The fact is, Foulke saved most of 'em. He goes through long stretches where he's unhittable and automatic. By any objective measure, he is one of the elite closers in baseball.

With all that said, it wasn't too bad of a trade. Foulke is in his contract year whereas Koch is three years (I think) away from free agency. I don't think Koch is quite as good as Foulke, but he's pretty damn good. And I like the aggressiveness and swagger he brings to the table, too. I just wish the Sox hadn't given up Valentine in the deal - I stll think KW should have been able to get it done by just offering MJ and Foulke for Koch. But maybe Beane just wouldn't bend. Who knows. But I've said it before, and I'll say it again - Koch will absolutely give us all ulcers. He gives up a lot of baserunners and makes things very scary on a regular basis.

ssang
02-13-2003, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by Juan Pizarro

The significant times in his career when he's gagged: Game 1 of the 2000 playoffs against the Mariners, when he coughed up a lead.


Actually, Foulke didn't blow the lead. He gave up a HR to Edgar Martinez in a tie game in the 10th inning. Chad Bradford blew the lead by giving out a 2-out, 2-strike single to Mike Cameron. Just a little FYI, no big deal.

jlh221fan
02-13-2003, 12:35 PM
You're incorrect in your recollections: he didn't cough up a lead in Game 1 of the playoffs - he entered in a tie game and pitched a perfect 9th before the disastrous 10th. He coughed up a lead in Game 3 of the 3-game series at Comiskey in 2002, not the 1st game in Yankee Stadium. I don't think he even pitched in Yankee Stadium in 2002.

Juan Pizarro
02-13-2003, 12:37 PM
Sorry for those misrecollections.

I know, Foulke has done well for the club, but he was able to self-destruct in what seemed like the biggest situations. Maybe I'm still mad at him for blowing the Dog Day game in 2000, when we had our pooch out in right field. That day, he blew the save on Biddle's first ML start.

Foulke You
02-13-2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Oh boy, here we go. :smile:

Let's just say I disagree. Every fan in every city can point to "crucial" games their closer blew. Yankee fans can point to Mariano Rivera's blown save in game 7 of the '01 WS, for example. The fact is, Foulke saved most of 'em. He goes through long stretches where he's unhittable and automatic. By any objective measure, he is one of the elite closers in baseball.

With all that said, it wasn't too bad of a trade. Foulke is in his contract year whereas Koch is three years (I think) away from free agency. I don't think Koch is quite as good as Foulke, but he's pretty damn good. And I like the aggressiveness and swagger he brings to the table, too. I just wish the Sox hadn't given up Valentine in the deal - I stll think KW should have been able to get it done by just offering MJ and Foulke for Koch. But maybe Beane just wouldn't bend. Who knows. But I've said it before, and I'll say it again - Koch will absolutely give us all ulcers. He gives up a lot of baserunners and makes things very scary on a regular basis.

Y'know, I was going to go on a rampage, trotting out my usual stat comparisons in defense of one of my favorite players (Foulke). But Dibber basically said everything I wanted to say. I'll miss Foulke and wish him well when the Sox aren't playing him. That said, I like Koch and look forward to seeing that 100mph heater but I don't believe he is the massive upgrade everyone thinks and he will make you sweat out saves.

baggio202
02-13-2003, 12:54 PM
i dont understand this thinking that foulke sux ,koch is great....look at their stats...foulke beats koch in every catagory..he gives up less hits ,less walks (whip is lower of course) , less runs and he strikes out batters at ahigher rate than koch (which really floored me because koch comes with a rep as a strike out pitcher and so far he really isnt)..there save percentage is almost identical at 84%

blowing crucial saves???...isnt every save opportunity crucial??...the only real bad save you could say he blew was against minnesota...and that one was a fluke if i ever saw one..only one ball hit out of the infield...and there was one play where a potential ground ball was hit to SS , it was just to the left of where the SS should be playing..im watching this ball roll through the infield and no clayton...what the hell was he doing on that play??...reminds me of corbin bernsen in major league...but because of lack of effort and some plays by konerko that were tough but could have been made but wernt..foulke gets cremated by his critics...

his critics point to the blown save in seattle...why was that so crucial???what would have been any different if he saved that one and instead blew on against tampa bay??...i could here the critics on that.".he blew a friggen against tampa???...no one blows a save against them...thats their only come from behind win this year..foulke sux!!!"...every closer blows more games against winning teams than losing teams..because the winning teams have a propensity to come back..teams that lose 100 games never make comebacks..if they did they wouldnt lose 100 games...

what i think happened with foulke was that we watch him day in and day out..so when he blows a save for us it hurts because its our favorite team...look at koch..talk about blowing important saves..he had a bad sept last year..blew a few saves down the stretch..but oakland was uncanny in pulling his ass out of the fire when he did blow saves...then , while it wasnt a blown save he did let the horse out of the barn so to speak in a key game in the playoffs...but koch wasnt pitching for us so we didnt see those blown saves down the stretch..and even if we did see one on tv it sure wouldnt hurt us like it would if he was pitching for us...

what will fans feel about koch if he repeats last year??..lets say we are in a tight with the twins and down the stretch koch struggles and blows 2or 3 saves???...maybe we get to the playoffs and he blows up like he did against twins..are we still gonna love him???

im not debating whether foulke was good , bad or indifferent....but the facts dont back up this thinking that our problems our solved because "crappy" foulke has been replaced with "awesome" koch..hopefully it turns out that koch has his best year ever for us...but the facts and stats say foulke is the better pitcher...with both having a few checkered moments in their past...

doublem23
02-13-2003, 12:59 PM
In their last two trades with the A's, the Sox have acquired Billy Koch and Jon Adkins while they have dealt Keith Foulke, Mark Johnson, Joe Valentine, and Ray Durham, so yeah, Billy Beane has earned that "butt-kissing."

DrCrawdad
02-13-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by ssang
Actually, Foulke didn't blow the lead. He gave up a HR to Edgar Martinez in a tie game in the 10th inning. Chad Bradford blew the lead by giving out a 2-out, 2-strike single to Mike Cameron. Just a little FYI, no big deal.

IIRC in the 2000 Playoffs Foulke coughed up the Edgar HR then gave up another to Olerud.

Then who'll forget the game tying HR Foulke gave up to Sosa at Comiskey (can't remember the yr).

Keith Foulke, best wishes to you in Oakland and wherever you land afterward but I'll remember how you built up your stats last year in mop up duty.

- DrCrawdad.

Blueprint1
02-13-2003, 01:17 PM
The sosa HR was 2000 game one at comiskey. The sox came back and won the game in extras.

Iwritecode
02-13-2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad

Keith Foulke, best wishes to you in Oakland and wherever you land afterward but I'll remember how you built up your stats last year in mop up duty.

And people wonder why Foulke's career stats are better then Koch's?

Mop-up duty against the Royals, Tigers and Indians is much easier than a closer role against the M's and Angels...

hold2dibber
02-13-2003, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
And people wonder why Foulke's career stats are better then Koch's?

Mop-up duty against the Royals, Tigers and Indians is much easier than a closer role against the M's and Angels...

C'mon - that's simply not true. The 2nd half of last year was the only time in the last 3 (4?) years in which he wasn't the closer. He built his stats in '99, '00 and '01 by being a closer, not by being a mop up man. And he would have had about 30 saves last year if the Tinkerer hadn't pulled him out of the closer's role.

Also, don't forget that before last year, Koch was piling up saves against the D-Rays and Orioles.

NewyorkSoxFan
02-13-2003, 01:31 PM
Also check out Koch's work during that 21 or whatever it was winning streak they had. Also look at the division he was in. It might be the best in baseball with Seattle, and The Angels. Hey I like Keith, but really when he was producing these numbers who were they against, and who was Koch going against. Just my 2 cents.


NYSF

34 Inch Stick
02-13-2003, 01:35 PM
I imagine this debate will rage for the rest of the year. They are pitchers of very similar talent. I have no problem with either as the closer. The problem with the trade is we gave up more than equal talent.

I have to admit thought, whenever Koch came into a game I felt more confident than I would against other elite closers. He always put runners on base. That gives a psychological lift to any team down 1 in the 9th. You have to make that other team think of failure rather than success.

hold2dibber
02-13-2003, 01:39 PM
Here are Foulke's numbers against the best of the AL from '00 through '02:

Anaheim: 2.51 ERA, 3 BB, 14 K, 14.1 IP
Boston: 0.93 ERA, 2 BB, 6 K, 9.2 IP
Cleveland: 1.50 ERA, 4 BB, 23 K, 24 IP
Minnesota: 3.76 ERA, 5 BB, 31 K, 24 IP
NYY: 12.00 ERA, 1 BB, 12 K, 26.1 IP
Oakland: 2.53 ERA, 3 BB, 13 K, 10.2 IP
Seattle: 5.00 ERA, 7 BB, 11 K, 18.0 IP

So he's struggled against New York and Seattle but kicked ass against everyone else. I don't think its accurate to suggest that his success was simply due to the fact that he pitches in the Central. Those of you who use that thinking must think Buehrle and Colon are vastly overrated too, right?

Juan Pizarro
02-13-2003, 01:40 PM
Glad to see I could get a nice discussion going.

I am truly sorry about misremembering Game 1 of the 2000 ALDS.
That night was my dad's wake, and I recall getting updates from my cousin, who was listening on the radio in the funeral home parking lot.
Foulke didn't blow the lead, but he did blow the game.

soxtalker
02-13-2003, 01:47 PM
I thought that one of the motivations for the trade was that the salary costs would be spread out over a different time period. Also, the Sox are able to keep Koch for one more year than they could have kept Folke.

Randar68
02-13-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Juan Pizarro


The reason they are all gushing is because it wasn't 1-for-1. We gave up our best relief pitching prospect in Joe Valentine. Most who have seen him and Almonte believe Valentine has the best shot to be a really good closer in the bigs. In one year, Foulke walks away from the A's, they get another 1st round draft pick from whoever signs him, and they have a closer possible ready to take his spot...

I don't necessarily agree with all the Beane arse kissing, but in this case (and the Ray Durham trade) he worked the system to perfection.

He get's an extra first rounder or 2 every year! That turns into something substantial over time...

Mammoo
02-13-2003, 02:46 PM
The White Sox traded Keith Foulke because Ken Williams acted upon the opportunity to get someone better. Now, I know that’s a difficult fact for a professional athlete to get his arms around, but “Foulkie” will be happier once he does. At the Oakland A’s fan fest last week, Foulke fired a departing salvo over the bow of the Good Ship Pale Hose, claiming Manager Jerry Manual fibbed to him when he was demoted for blowing successive saves.

"I said if he wants to take me off the job, fine," Foulke recalled. "He said, 'Hey, when you get your stuff back, you'll get your role back.' I worked hard ... and continued to be in there in the seventh and eighth innings."

Foulke’s entitled to his opinion but why state his case after being banished to Oakland. Too bad he didn't have the backbone to raise his concerns while still a member of the team. Paul Konerko had the guts to say it when it was happening, of course he was able to back up his words with a solid season.

"A lot of things that went on there should have been stopped, and it wasn't," Foulke said. "That was kind of the demise of the team. I'll leave it at that. I'm happy to be in Oakland."

So am I, Foulkie!

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/images/baseball/mlb/players/3623.jpg
"Waaaa, Waaaa, Waaaa"

voodoochile
02-13-2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Blueprint1
The sosa HR was 2000 game one at comiskey. The sox came back and won the game in extras.

And two days later (or was it before), he struck ShamME out. Blown saves always stick out in our memories because they are always painful. A Save on the other hand, rarely does. Anyone remember their favorite Foulke save? Anyone? Beuller? Beuller?

That is why anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much when looking at overall performance...

doublem23
02-13-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by Mammoo
"I said if he wants to take me off the job, fine," Foulke recalled. "He said, 'Hey, when you get your stuff back, you'll get your role back.' I worked hard ... and continued to be in there in the seventh and eighth innings."

Foulke’s entitled to his opinion but why state his case after being banished to Oakland. Too bad he didn't have the backbone to raise his concerns while still a member of the team. Paul Konerko had the guts to say it when it was happening, of course he was able to back up his words with a solid season.

Uh, maybe because Keith is of the school of thought that states, "what starts in the clubhouse stays in the clubhouse." I've been saying for a while since Konerko started running his mouth that he'd better learn how to shut up and say, "No comment."

Blueprint1
02-13-2003, 02:57 PM
actually Yes my Fav Foulke save was the game where Ordonez his that homerun at Camden yards and the umpires did not count it. In the 9th the indians had the runners on base to win the game. DP game over sox win. Helped keep that winning streak alive in 2000 the yankees Indians one

voodoochile
02-13-2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Blueprint1
actually Yes my Fav Foulke save was the game where Ordonez his that homerun at Camden yards and the umpires did not count it. In the 9th the indians had the runners on base to win the game. DP game over sox win. Helped keep that winning streak alive in 2000 the yankees Indians one

Yeah, but that game is memorable for a variety of reasons that you already mentioned (the streak the called back HR). The fact that Foulke saved it is almost secondary to your story. I know it qualifies, but the reasons you remember it are not because Keith recorded the save. Still, it does put the lie to the idea that Foulke always melts down in big situations now doesn't it?

pudge
02-13-2003, 04:51 PM
Okay, gotta throw in my two cents, because Foulke was one of my favorites for a long time, and I got into some pretty heated debates with Foulke_You last season.... I personally think Foulke was hurt a little by becoming a closer. His best season, by far, was the year he was a middle reliever. He pitched 105 innings and was the prefect bridge from the 6th or 7th to the 9th.

When he became a "closer" and got into those tight, late game situations, he went with too many fastballs and seemed to struggle in clutch games. I still believe he could have even become a decent starter, but that's water under the bridge.

Overall, I think he's a really talented pitcher and I'm sorry he's gone. But I'm not sorry he's not our closer anymore.

Having said that, I'm sure Koch is going to send us all running for the Pepto this season. Bottom line, I really dislike the idea of having one "closer", unless that closer is amazingly dominating. I really like what Boston is planning this season, it will be interesting to see how it works out.

Bmr31
02-13-2003, 04:55 PM
My apologies to Kermie, because i know Baseball Prospectus is his "bible". This book is trash. Theyre wrong just as much as anyone else, and their views are so focused, they do not allow for any other possibilities but their own. Anyone who watches baseball can tell you Koch is a better closer than Foulke. Its an absolute joke to debate.

CHISOXFAN13
02-13-2003, 05:06 PM
Not sure about everyone else, but I sweat out every save opportunity no amtter who has been on the bump. That's the nature of the situation. Unless a guy mows down a lineup with three straight outs, your heart is going to skip a beat.

I love Foulke, but those two games against New York were the turning point of the season last year. It's a good trade for both teams, and while everyone kisses Billy Beane's ass, I wonder what the thoughts will be when Foulke is wearing a different uni next season.

Everyone is so quick to point out Valentine being dumped as a bad move, but those same people also discount the fact that we picked up two pretty solid pitchers in that deal, including a left-handed starter.

hold2dibber
02-13-2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Anyone who watches baseball can tell you Koch is a better closer than Foulke. Its an absolute joke to debate.

LOL! That statement is a joke. Anyone who watches baseball and understands what they're seeing can tell you Foulke is at least as good, and likely better, than Koch. When Foulke is on, its 10 pitches, 1-2-3, turn off the lights, game over. Even at his best, when Koch is on, he throws 25 pitches and gives up a hit or a walk or two. People who love Koch love his radar gun readings more than his results. Koch "looks like" a closer and throws the heat people for some reason want from a closer. That doesn't mean he's better though.

WinningUgly!
02-13-2003, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
My apologies to Kermie, because i know Baseball Prospectus is his "bible". This book is trash. Theyre wrong just as much as anyone else, and their views are so focused, they do not allow for any other possibilities but their own. Anyone who watches baseball can tell you Koch is a better closer than Foulke. Its an absolute joke to debate.

I agree that Koch is the better closer. Foulke might have prettier numbers & might be the better true pitcher, but I'd rather see #44 taking the ball in the 9th bringing that 100 heat.

Another reason that I'm glad Foulke is gone...
I wouldn't have been able to stomach an offseason full of "Foulke to start?" posts. :D:

Bmr31
02-13-2003, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
LOL! That statement is a joke. Anyone who watches baseball and understands what they're seeing can tell you Foulke is at least as good, and likely better, than Koch. When Foulke is on, its 10 pitches, 1-2-3, turn off the lights, game over. Even at his best, when Koch is on, he throws 25 pitches and gives up a hit or a walk or two. People who love Koch love his radar gun readings more than his results. Koch "looks like" a closer and throws the heat people for some reason want from a closer. That doesn't mean he's better though.

If you would pay attention to the actual words in the post you will find that i said Koch is a better CLOSER. There is no debate to that and it does not mean Keith is not the better pitcher. I really am surprised that you do not understand this concept. I am sorry if this offends you but if you really really think Foulke closes out baseball games more effectively that Koch, you should try watching a few more games before you comment.

Bmr31
02-13-2003, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
I agree that Koch is the better closer. Foulke might have prettier numbers & might be the better true pitcher, but I'd rather see #44 taking the ball in the 9th bringing that 100 heat.

Another reason that I'm glad Foulke is gone...
I wouldn't have been able to stomach an offseason full of "Foulke to start?" posts. :D:


LOL wow intelligent AND funny, i am impressed. :)

Ventura23Fan
02-13-2003, 07:16 PM
FWIW, on mlb.com they list their top ten relief pitchers for fantasy baseball. Foulke was #10. Koch was not on the list.

Bmr31
02-13-2003, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by Ventura23Fan
FWIW, on mlb.com they list their top ten relief pitchers for fantasy baseball. Foulke was #10. Koch was not on the list.

If Foulke is used in the set up role? HELL YEAH....

Nellie_Fox
02-13-2003, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
I am sorry if this offends you but if you really really think Foulke closes out baseball games more effectively that Koch, you should try watching a few more games before you comment. Uh,oh; perilously close to the "old" Bmr here. Reminiscent of the "I know more about baseball than you ever will; I'm right and you're wrong; you're a moron without any right to make a comment" arguments that so endeared you to many. Not quite there, but it's lurking just below the surface.

Ahh, how I remember the "can you be a closer without a near-100MPH fastball" thread.

TRL
02-13-2003, 08:16 PM
Foulke has always been a favorite of mine. I love watching him throw three change-ups in a row and make a hitter look absolutely clueless. I was a little disappointed to see him traded, but I think Koch will do fine as our closer. It's too bad that Keith has been making the statements that he has, but he is entitled to speak his mind. At least there's one thing I can guarantee about Koch, we won't be hearing about how he would like to be in the rotation.

Bmr31
02-13-2003, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Uh,oh; perilously close to the "old" Bmr here. Reminiscent of the "I know more about baseball than you ever will; I'm right and you're wrong; you're a moron without any right to make a comment" arguments that so endeared you to many. Not quite there, but it's lurking just below the surface.

Ahh, how I remember the "can you be a closer without a near-100MPH fastball" thread.

LOL nice try nellie. There is no "old" or "new" Bmr and youre not gonna drag me into that crap. As far as baseball goes, i do know more than anyone ive ever met. If you have a problem with that opinion of myself, thats your problem. It isnt going to affect or change me one bit. Did you really think i stopped thinking i am smart? :)

Nellie_Fox
02-13-2003, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Did you really think i stopped thinking i am smart? Not for a moment.

Bmr31
02-13-2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Not for a moment.

Well good, I would be lost without it.

NewyorkSoxFan
02-13-2003, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
LOL! That statement is a joke. Anyone who watches baseball and understands what they're seeing can tell you Foulke is at least as good, and likely better, than Koch. When Foulke is on, its 10 pitches, 1-2-3, turn off the lights, game over. Even at his best, when Koch is on, he throws 25 pitches and gives up a hit or a walk or two. People who love Koch love his radar gun readings more than his results. Koch "looks like" a closer and throws the heat people for some reason want from a closer. That doesn't mean he's better though.

Dibb I think you really prove the argument when you make the statement "when Foulke is on". The problem is when he is not their is no room for a mistake. Therein lies the biggest difference between the two. Koch will occasionally exasperate us but he is better equipped to get himself out of jams because of what his best pitch is. Unlike Keith who really needs to setup his best pitch. Which is why he began throwing more fastballs trying to fool guys sitting on his change.

I like the baseball prospectus and I think it serves a purpose but I would give you guys an old saying. "Liars figure, and figures lie." So the numbers tell part of the story but they certainly don't tell it all.

That's what makes the arbitration process in baseball such a joke. Every ruling is based strictly on numbers and we all know that numbers don't always tell the story.

NYSF

fuzzy_patters
02-13-2003, 11:47 PM
The biggest problem I had with Foulke is that he wasn't always availabe to close games. If he had been inactive for awhile due to a lack of save situations, it would take him a few games in a mop up roll to get "the feel" back on his changeup.

Kock throws fastballs. Even if he doesn't pitch for two weeks, he should still be able to throw the fastball. This should save the Sox the occasional mid-summer period of breaking their closer back in.

Tragg
02-14-2003, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by Juan Pizarro
Are any of you as tired as I am of all the national writers kissing Billy Beane's butt?



That would be a HELL YES I'm tired of it.
The low point was the notion, propogated by both the media and some on here, that we got bad minor league players judged SOLELY by the fact that Beane let them go.
And I'm still waiting for the Singleton apologetics.

Iwritecode
02-14-2003, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
The biggest problem I had with Foulke is that he wasn't always availabe to close games. If he had been inactive for awhile due to a lack of save situations, it would take him a few games in a mop up roll to get "the feel" back on his changeup.

Kock throws fastballs. Even if he doesn't pitch for two weeks, he should still be able to throw the fastball. This should save the Sox the occasional mid-summer period of breaking their closer back in.

My biggest problem with Foulke was that he was only effective for one inning. Granted this was partly JM's fault for continually trotting him out there in the eighth inning or tie games but the fact remains... With Koch, at least we know he's capable of pitching 1+ innings if need be.

hold2dibber
02-14-2003, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Dibb I think you really prove the argument when you make the statement "when Foulke is on". The problem is when he is not their is no room for a mistake. Therein lies the biggest difference between the two. Koch will occasionally exasperate us but he is better equipped to get himself out of jams because of what his best pitch is. Unlike Keith who really needs to setup his best pitch. Which is why he began throwing more fastballs trying to fool guys sitting on his change.


Every player and every closer has rough spots during the course of the year - Foulke is no different than Koch or anybody else in that regard. And I don't understand why you think Koch is better equipped to get us out of jams just because his best pitch is a fastball. Foulke has proved that hitters can't hit him - in fact, they have a significantly harder time getting on base or scoring against Foulke than they do against Koch. You say that Foulke has to set up his best pitch and suggest that Koch is better because he doesn't have to do that - but you know as well as I that a pitcher that relies on his fastball, no matter how fast it is, is going to get lit up if he doesn't either have other good pitches to compliment the fastball or if he doesn't have pin point control. When Koch goes through rough stretches its because he can't fool anybody with his other pitches and/or because he losses command of the fastball. It happens to him just as often as Foulke losses the feel on his change. So I don't see the difference.

In any event, I sure hope you're right about Koch being better equipped at getting us out of jams, since he will certainly get us in more jams than Keith Foulke ever did.

Finally, please don't mistake this for me bashing Koch. I think he's a good pitcher. I just think Foulke is better.

baggio202
02-14-2003, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
My biggest problem with Foulke was that he was only effective for one inning. Granted this was partly JM's fault for continually trotting him out there in the eighth inning or tie games but the fact remains... With Koch, at least we know he's capable of pitching 1+ innings if need be.

if i added up the IP and runs right from the game log section at ESPN...in games where foulke threw 1.1 innings or more he threw 34.2 innings and gave up 9 runs for a 2.34 era...5 of those 9 runs came in one outing...koch is probably good in those situtions too...but so is foulke..

maurice
02-14-2003, 12:03 PM
Dib and I are in agreement on this one. This very issue was debated at length in another thread awhile back.

By definition, a closer's only job is to close out games. Every closer blows saves sometimes. Foulke is one of the best closers in baseball precisely because he blows relatively few saves.

Blown saves cause fans to have a negative emotional response to their team's closer, while successful saves are merely expected. This creates an irrational grass-is-always-greener effect.

Now that Koch has replaced Foulke, Koch will be the one driving Sox fans nuts when he inevitably blows saves. Hopefully, Koch will perfom as well as Foulke has performed for the White Sox. His history shows that it's unlikely that Koch will do better than Foulke has done, though there is a good chance (perhaps a probability) that he will do at least marginally worse.

That doesn't mean Koch is bad or that KW's trade necessarily was bad. It just means that KW hasn't upgraded the closer position in the same sense that he upgraded the starting rotation by acquiring Colon.

baggio202
02-14-2003, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Dib and I are in agreement on this one. This very issue was debated at length in another thread awhile back.

By definition, a closer's only job is to close out games. Every closer blows saves sometimes. Foulke is one of the best closers in baseball precisely because he blows relatively few saves.

Blown saves cause fans to have a negative emotional response to their team's closer, while successful saves are merely expected. This creates an irrational grass-is-always-greener effect.

Now that Koch has replaced Foulke, Koch will be the one driving Sox fans nuts when he inevitably blows saves. Hopefully, Koch will perfom as well as Foulke has performed for the White Sox. His history shows that it's unlikely that Koch will do better than Foulke has done, though there is a good chance (perhaps a probability) that he will do at least marginally worse.

That doesn't mean Koch is bad or that KW's trade necessarily was bad. It just means that KW hasn't upgraded the closer position in the same sense that he upgraded the starting rotation by acquiring Colon.

excellent post maurice...i totally agree with the grass is greener theory when it comes to closers...

Hangar18
02-14-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Blueprint1
The sosa HR was 2000 game one at comiskey. The sox came back and won the game in extras.

I remember that game well. I hassled this cub fan a few rows in front of me the whole game about Sammy striking out like 4 x in a row. Then Foulke serves up the long ball. that Sucked.
But in Extra Innings, CLee hits a Grand Slam.......EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!

ma-gaga
02-14-2003, 06:12 PM
I was looking at the WHIP of the 'closers' in the league and was putting together a nice comprehensive post, but I was timed out before I could finish. Who knew?

Regardless, in 2002:
B.Koch had a WHIP of 1.27
E. Gagne had a WHIP of 0.86
J.Mesa had a WHIP of 1.42

Most of the others fit in between. With the majority of them around 1.05-1.10. I think Foulke came in at 1.04. Billy puts a lot of guys on base. He has the 'stuff' to get out of jams, but he's going to make you sweat. His stats look good, except for that WHIP.

Ventura23Fan
02-14-2003, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
if i added up the IP and runs right from the game log section at ESPN...in games where foulke threw 1.1 innings or more he threw 34.2 innings and gave up 9 runs for a 2.34 era...5 of those 9 runs came in one outing...koch is probably good in those situtions too...but so is foulke..

Thanks for those numbers. I think if a closer is only used for one inning on a regular basis, that is all he is going to be good for most of the time and we shouldn't be surprised when he struggles when asked to pitch beyond one inning. After he was taken out of the closer role last year, Keith pitched more than one inning on a fairly regular basis and he was very effective doing so. Keep in mind though that the more innings a reliever pitches per appearance, the less you will be able to use him in terms of appearances. I think that's why most manager's prefer to use the closer for only one inning.