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Chisox_cali
02-12-2003, 02:40 AM
from cs.com

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-030211soxkennyrogers,1,4717876.story?coll=cs%2Dwhi tesox%2Dheadlines

moochpuppy
02-12-2003, 07:39 AM
Have fun finishing in 2nd place behind the Yankees while missing out on the wildcard Kenny.

Save the money KW and maybe wait til the end of July, if needed.

Hullett_Fan
02-12-2003, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by moochpuppy
Save the money KW and maybe wait til the end of July, if needed.

Good Call. At this point we don't need Rogers (IMO), so let's see what Rauch (or Loaiza) can do and then add the missing piece, be it leadoff hitter or 4th/5th starter for the pennant run.

Of course Rogers may not have a choice in the matter if only 2 teams are vying for his services.

duke of dorwood
02-12-2003, 08:04 AM
It was NEVER gonna happen with Boras as agent. This was lost in all the Rogers-Mania going on.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-12-2003, 09:33 AM
Boras is blowing smoke. He hasn't got ****. Maybe Boston will step up if they truly had their heart set on Helling, but that's debatable. This is classic smoke and mirrors negotiation from this slimeball.

Pitchers and catchers report this week, and Boras's client is still waiting next to his telephone. I suspect the lion will eat the lion tamer any day now.

I would love to see Boras catch one right between the eyes. This might be it.

A.T. Money
02-12-2003, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Boras is blowing smoke. He hasn't got ****. Maybe Boston will step up if they truly had their heart set on Helling, but that's debatable. This is classic smoke and mirrors negotiation from this slimeball.

Pitchers and catchers report this week, and Boras's client is still waiting next to his telephone. I suspect the lion will eat the lion tamer any day now.

I would love to see Boras catch one right between the eyes. This might be it.

So you think we're going to get him anyway?

Boras is a brutal guy, but why is he so against the White Sox? I remember losing Charles Johnson because of him, and then we lost out legitimate change of getting A-Rod because of him. What's this guy's beef with the Sox?

voodoochile
02-12-2003, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Boras is blowing smoke. He hasn't got ****. Maybe Boston will step up if they truly had their heart set on Helling, but that's debatable. This is classic smoke and mirrors negotiation from this slimeball.

Pitchers and catchers report this week, and Boras's client is still waiting next to his telephone. I suspect the lion will eat the lion tamer any day now.

I would love to see Boras catch one right between the eyes. This might be it.

Whoa, you mean this one isn't JR's fault? Joking, just joking...

Seriously though... I admit I'm surprised by your response. I would assume you would be all over KW for not uping his offer to make sure it gets done. I mean they are willing to offer a contract POTENTIALLY worth $3M based on attendance (according to KW in the article), so why not just offer the $3M and see if he will accept that?

Are you saying that Rogers isn't worth that much, or are you backing off on your concept of spending whatever it takes to win now? Just curious, not trying to start a war...

ChiSoxKid
02-12-2003, 09:40 AM
Didn't all this Boras-WhiteSox bad blood start with some acrimonious negotiations with a first round pick a few years back? What was his name...

voodoochile
02-12-2003, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by SoxDemon
So you think we're going to get him anyway?

Boras is a brutal guy, but why is he so against the White Sox? I remember losing Charles Johnson because of him, and then we lost out legitimate change of getting A-Rod because of him. What's this guy's beef with the Sox?

:reinsy
"That would be me. See, his job is to increase player salaries as far as the market will bear. I've been trying to hold player salaries down by not only refusing to pay FA a lot of money, but openly deriding other owners for doing it and encouraging low revenue teams to pocket their revenue sharing checks. I just don't understand why the guy doesn't like me...

PaleHoseGeorge
02-12-2003, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Whoa, you mean this one isn't JR's fault? Joking, just joking...

Seriously though... I admit I'm surprised by your response. I would assume you would be all over KW for not uping his offer to make sure it gets done. I mean they are willing to offer a contract POTENTIALLY worth $3M based on attendance (according to KW in the article), so why not just offer the $3M and see if he will accept that?

Are you saying that Rogers isn't worth that much, or are you backing off on your concept of spending whatever it takes to win now? Just curious, not trying to start a war...

Voodoo, I'm not sure what you're referring to. The most I ever speculated Rogers was worth was $1-$2 million with incentives. KW is saying the same thing, roughly equivalent to Lofton's deal, which was $1.75 million with incentives. So why would you be surprised?

Furthermore, I SPECIFICALLY SAID

hold2dibber
02-12-2003, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Boras is blowing smoke. He hasn't got ****. Maybe Boston will step up if they truly had their heart set on Helling, but that's debatable. This is classic smoke and mirrors negotiation from this slimeball.

Pitchers and catchers report this week, and Boras's client is still waiting next to his telephone. I suspect the lion will eat the lion tamer any day now.

I would love to see Boras catch one right between the eyes. This might be it.

I think you're right. Why the hell would anyone offer Rogers a big $ contract right now? Rogers has absolutely no leverage. Helling is arguably on the same level as Rogers (or, at worse, maybe just a notch below) and he just signed a minor league deal! I think he gets $1 million IF he makes the O's. That would suggest to me that the market for Rogers isn't much bettter - and a $1.025 million major league, guaranteed deal with the possibility of another $1.75 million in bonuses certainly seems about right based on that.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-12-2003, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Whoa, you mean this one isn't JR's fault? Joking, just joking...

Seriously though... I admit I'm surprised by your response. I would assume you would be all over KW for not uping his offer to make sure it gets done. I mean they are willing to offer a contract POTENTIALLY worth $3M based on attendance (according to KW in the article), so why not just offer the $3M and see if he will accept that?

Are you saying that Rogers isn't worth that much, or are you backing off on your concept of spending whatever it takes to win now? Just curious, not trying to start a war...

Voodoo, I'm not sure what you're referring to. The most I ever speculated Rogers was worth was $1-$2 million with incentives. KW is saying the same thing, roughly equivalent to Lofton's deal, which was $1.75 million with incentives. So why would you be surprised?

Furthermore, I specifically said I was AGAINST trading for an aging veteran because the upside was so limited.

I strongly urge you reread the "Why not upgrade the pitching staff" thread because clearly you didn't comprehend the points I was making. Start with post #1. The 100+ post debate that followed was strictly because some people (predictably, I might add) want to serve a rotation spot to Jon Rauch on a silver platter--even if it means utilizing a weaker pitching staff, as several of them admitted to. One of them asserted I was believing in a fairytale, too.

Consider the source.

voodoochile
02-12-2003, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Voodoo, I'm not sure what you're referring to. The most I ever speculated Rogers was worth was $1-$2 million with incentives. KW is saying the same thing, roughly equivalent to Lofton's deal, which was $1.75 million with incentives. So why would you be surprised?

Furthermore, I specifically said I was AGAINST trading for an aging veteran because the upside was so limited.

Okay, I didn't realize that. You've been such an outspoken critic of JR (and with good reason) that from my perspective, it seemed like a change of heart. So I wanted to know why. Thanks for clarifying...

PaleHoseGeorge
02-12-2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, I didn't realize that. You've been such an outspoken critic of JR (and with good reason) that from my perspective, it seemed like a change of heart. So I wanted to know why. Thanks for clarifying...

You're welcome. :smile:

For the record, I'm still a critic of JR but there is no good reason the Sox should overpay for somebody the likes of Rogers--especially now that it is February 12 and the guy is still waiting for an offer. (BTW, Happy Lincoln's Birthday to my fellow Illinoisans).

Also for the record, I agree with what Duke said. Getting Boras to ink a deal with the Sox is practically impossible. He is probably shopping KW's offer to a half a dozen teams right now asking them to at least match it. It would KILL him to let Rogers go to the Sox. As somebody once said...

:moron
"That would be delicious!"

:)

EnricoPallazzo
02-12-2003, 10:13 AM
I've gone over all the contenders in both leagues and I just don't see anyone who would be willing to pay more than chump change for Rogers. Boras is blowing smoke. Even if the Sox offer the best deal (probably 1.5 with some incentives) Boras will try to move him elsewhere. But Rogers still could tell Boras to take the Sox' deal. I hope so because having another left handed starter and more pitching depth cannot be a bad thing.

NewyorkSoxFan
02-12-2003, 10:17 AM
Hey it was the smart move by KW. Rogers is 38 soon to be 39 and has no leverage. If Boston gets Millar out of his Japanese contract they will not be signing him either. They will wait until the trade deadline.

So Boras is taking a calculated risk, and the WS are smart to back away from the table. The climate in baseball is not what it was and he (rogers) should wake up and smell the coffee.

Don't be surprised if this deal gets revisited toward the end of ST if he still hasn't signed. He is not the type of pitcher who can afford at his age to not go through ST and jump into the season without preparation.

As Kenny Rogers said "Gotta know when to hold em, and know when to fold em. Never count your money till the agent screws you over" or something like that.

NYSF

voodoochile
02-12-2003, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by EnricoPallazzo
I've gone over all the contenders in both leagues and I just don't see anyone who would be willing to pay more than chump change for Rogers. Boras is blowing smoke. Even if the Sox offer the best deal (probably 1.5 with some incentives) Boras will try to move him elsewhere. But Rogers still could tell Boras to take the Sox' deal. I hope so because having another left handed starter and more pitching depth cannot be a bad thing.

If he tells Rogers to accept another offer, it had better be for as much money as the Sox potentially offered, because if he makes less than that Boras could conceivably be held legally liable for any difference - especially after turning down the Rangers $10.2M guaranteed. Boras' job is to get the best deal for his client he can. Right now he is up a creek and the paddle is at least cracked if not outright broken, because I am SURE he told Rogers to turn down that Rangers' offer. He had better find a way to get that money back or his reputation as a magic maker will take a serious hit, IMO.

Guys like Boras are great when money is flying around like leaves in the fall, but when money is tight, he has a hard time changing his expectations and his clients suffer. Maybe he is going to try to use Rogers as evidence of collusion, but right now he isn't looking so good and I am sure he is working his ass off to get that money back.

I have to agree that seeing Boras get his comeuppance would be especially sweet...

EnricoPallazzo
02-12-2003, 10:24 AM
Does anyone know if Finley is still available? Hr has better stuff than Rogers but may have health issues. Without the lunatic wife around though, his health and concentration could take a big spike.

NewyorkSoxFan
02-12-2003, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
If he tells Rogers to accept another offer, it had better be for as much money as the Sox potentially offered, because if he makes less than that Boras could conceivably be held legally liable for any difference - especially after turning down the Rangers $10.2M guaranteed. Boras' job is to get the best deal for his client he can. Right now he is up a creek and the paddle is at least cracked if not outright broken, because I am SURE he told Rogers to turn down that Rangers' offer. He had better find a way to get that money back or his reputation as a magic maker will take a serious hit, IMO.

Guys like Boras are great when money is flying around like leaves in the fall, but when money is tight, he has a hard time changing his expectations and his clients suffer. Maybe he is going to try to use Rogers as evidence of collusion, but right now he isn't looking so good and I am sure he is working his ass off to get that money back.

I have to agree that seeing Boras get his comeuppance would be especially sweet...



That guy must really have some big ones because he has an ego the size of the Hancock. I really hope he gets less than the sox offered. Just to make him look like a moron, at 38 years old I don't know what he is expecting, but the land is barren.

Meanwhile his agent keeps telling him days before ST that there is a pot of gold out there with his name on it. I even wonder if he cares about the players really, it is about landmark deals and playing hardball with the owners. He is so bad for baseball its not even funny.



NYSF

dougs78
02-12-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
The most I ever speculated Rogers was worth was $1-$2 million with incentives. KW is saying the same thing, roughly equivalent to Lofton's deal, which was $1.75 million with incentives. So why would you be surprised?


Could you clarify how this relates to your staunch support of Rogers in the other thread? You made it abundantly clear that you believe that adding Rogers would upgrade the pitching staff. If that is the case, why would you limit his worth to only 1-2 million dollars? If he is going to help us win, why not pay what it takes to get the deal done?

34 Inch Stick
02-12-2003, 11:09 AM
I hope KW plays very hard during this negotiation. Rogers makes us better, but we can take him or leave him.

The key to negotiations is understanding who is in the position of power. Clearly the Sox are in power here. Put that offer on the table through Sunday. If not accepted, we go down from here. Or go and offer the contract to Finley. They are the same pitcher (5th starter for one year) from the Sox perspective.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-12-2003, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by dougs78
Could you clarify how this relates to your staunch support of Rogers in the other thread? You made it abundantly clear that you believe that adding Rogers would upgrade the pitching staff. If that is the case, why would you limit his worth to only 1-2 million dollars? If he is going to help us win, why not pay what it takes to get the deal done?

Pitching depth. Signing Rogers gets one slug (Porzio, as an example) off the team. As others also noted, pitching depth gives the team insurance against injury or sub-par performances elsewhere on the staff.

It's really not that complicated, though I had to keep repeating myself over and over and over again--and still many of you couldn't figure it out. You left in a huff.

I never said money was no object. Reread the thread. I specifically noted in post #1 I was against trading for an aging veteran (the upside is too small) and later put the price at signing Rogers at $1-$2 million. That's a cheap price to upgrade the pitching staff.

If money was no object, I would advocate what the Yankees do--sign everybody in MLB and have depth coming out our ears. That is what the Onion was joking about. Of course I was told I believe fairytales to make such assumptions. We're better off not upgrading the pitching staff.

Next question.

OEO Magglio
02-12-2003, 11:47 AM
Does anyone know if Finley is still available? Hr has better stuff than Rogers but may have health issues. Without the lunatic wife around though, his health and concentration could take a big spike.

Finley is still available, but KW has made it clear that the Sox are not going after him.

Iwritecode
02-12-2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Next question.

So if the Sox had the chance to sign Rodgers but at 5 million instead of 1-2 would you still be for it knowing that it should improve the pitching staff and the chances of taking away the divsion crown from the Twinkies (considering their poor record against lefties)? Or will you only be for it if the Sox can get him for a Kenny Lofton type deal (1-2 million plus incentives)?

SoxxoS
02-12-2003, 12:03 PM
Well best base scenario now is Rauch pitches well (7-9 wins 4.40 ERA 1.35 WHIP by the all star break), and we can use some $$$ come July 31st on a rent-a-player.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-12-2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
So if the Sox had the chance to sign Rodgers but at 5 million instead of 1-2 would you still be for it knowing that it should improve the pitching staff and the chances of taking away the divsion crown from the Twinkies (considering their poor record against lefties)? Or will you only be for it if the Sox can get him for a Kenny Lofton type deal (1-2 million plus incentives)?

Rogers will be damned lucky to get $2 million from anybody--regardless of how much smoke Boras throws out there. I am absolutely AGAINST overpaying for a ballplayer. The only reason this subject came up was because we turned the calendar into February and Rogers was still out there with his dumbass agent looking to sign a deal.

We've got leverage to do this deal at a great price. Some people are still scared of the consequences. Ask them why they're against it. Don't be surprised if you end up in a 100+ long thread explaining it to them. I suggest trying to convince the wall next to your computer instead. I'm pretty sure its smart enough not to challenge you. :smile:

If money is no object, sure sign Rogers. Of course if money is no object, I can name another 50 or so pitchers I would advocate signing before him.

jeremyb1
02-12-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Rogers will be damned lucky to get $2 million from anybody--regardless of how much smoke Boras throws out there. I am absolutely AGAINST overpaying for a ballplayer. The only reason this subject came up was because we turned the calendar into February and Rogers was still out there with his dumbass agent looking to sign a deal.

We've got leverage to do this deal at a great price. Some people are still scared of the consequences. Ask them why they're against it. Don't be surprised if you end up in a 100+ long thread explaining it to them. I suggest trying to convince the wall next to your computer instead. I'm pretty sure its smart enough not to challenge you. :smile:

If money is no object, sure sign Rogers. Of course if money is no object, I can name another 50 or so pitchers I would advocate signing before him.

i don't think there's any market for rogers right now. we're more or less it. the red sox are supposedly interested but their rotation is already pretty set with pedro, lowe, wakefield, burkett, and fossum. if they were to add rogers they'd have to move fossom - the pitcher they wouldn't part with for colon - to the pen for a second year. that seems unlikely to me, especially for a lot of money.

the pirates were the only other team supposedly interested, and they've made a point of coming out and saying they're not looking to add any pitching right now. boras has overplayed his hand here. everyone is wise to his schemes to play teams against themselves at this point. spring training is already beginning and he needs a team for his client. we can get by fine without rogers and the money simply isn't there for us to increase our bid. boras is just making things work. i hope kw offers him less if he comes back again.

hold2dibber
02-12-2003, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by EnricoPallazzo
I've gone over all the contenders in both leagues and I just don't see anyone who would be willing to pay more than chump change for Rogers. Boras is blowing smoke. Even if the Sox offer the best deal (probably 1.5 with some incentives) Boras will try to move him elsewhere. But Rogers still could tell Boras to take the Sox' deal. I hope so because having another left handed starter and more pitching depth cannot be a bad thing.

Boston seems like the only viable alternative that I can think of. They, presumably, had money budgeted for Colon and/or Contreras that is still laying around waiting to be spent. They have a rotation of Martinez, Lowe, Wakefield, Fossum and Birkett, I believe. I don't doubt for a minute that they'd like to add Rogers to that mix and send Birkett to the pen (of Fossum to AAA). Like the Sox, they don't have a lot of rotation depth, so Rogers would make some sense.

hold2dibber
02-12-2003, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by EnricoPallazzo
Does anyone know if Finley is still available? Hr has better stuff than Rogers but may have health issues. Without the lunatic wife around though, his health and concentration could take a big spike.

I've heard that, in light of his family situation (i.e., insane wife) and the fact that he has small kids, that he wants to stay close to home (So. Cal.).

DrCrawdad
02-12-2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Boras is blowing smoke. He hasn't got ****. Maybe Boston will step up if they truly had their heart set on Helling, but that's debatable. This is classic smoke and mirrors negotiation from this slimeball.

Pitchers and catchers report this week, and Boras's client is still waiting next to his telephone. I suspect the lion will eat the lion tamer any day now.

I would love to see Boras catch one right between the eyes. This might be it.

Bore-ass already lost one this year with the Cubs & Brownlie. It will be great if that jack-ass losses another one with Rogers.

- DrCrawdad.

Lip Man 1
02-12-2003, 01:03 PM
Just a few points:

Sorry the Rogers thing didn't work out (although as has been posted that could change in a week). The Sox tried, that's all you can ask.

The draft pick that was asked about earlier is BOBBY SEAY

Reinsdorf and Boras have had a history for a long time. Among the Boras clients were Alex Fernandez, Wilson Alvarez and Roberto Hernandez. You had the Bobby Seay situation. (I don't know if Jeff Weaver is represented by Boras or not)

You had Alex Rodriguez and Boras refusing to speak to the Sox after (it was reported) that Reinsdorf called Rodriguez and asked to meet with him WITHOUT BORAS.

Charles Johnson as was posted also had Boras as his agent.

and now apparently Kenny Rogers. it's funny how OTHER clubs like the Rangers and Cubs (among others) seem to get along with Boras but not the Sox.

That's a real problem when Boras represents over 150 players including most of the top pitchers.

Lip

gosox41
02-12-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just a few points:

Sorry the Rogers thing didn't work out (although as has been posted that could change in a week). The Sox tried, that's all you can ask.

The draft pick that was asked about earlier is BOBBY SEAY

Reinsdorf and Boras have had a history for a long time. Among the Boras clients were Alex Fernandez, Wilson Alvarez and Roberto Hernandez. You had the Bobby Seay situation. (I don't know if Jeff Weaver is represented by Boras or not)

You had Alex Rodriguez and Boras refusing to speak to the Sox after (it was reported) that Reinsdorf called Rodriguez and asked to meet with him WITHOUT BORAS.

Charles Johnson as was posted also had Boras as his agent.




and now apparently Kenny Rogers. it's funny how OTHER clubs like the Rangers and Cubs (among others) seem to get along with Boras but not the Sox.

That's a real problem when Boras represents over 150 players including most of the top pitchers.

Lip


Jeff Weaver is a Boras client. I believe the were negotiating over $500K so Weaver went back in the draft.

Can you imagine where the Sox would be if they had Weaver in their rotation the last 3 years and especially this year.

Boras is a moron. His theory of always holding out until you get what you want hasn't always worked. I forgot the catcher he tried that with (he was highly regarded in college and played for the Royals at some point in the last couple of years). Anyway all the holding out cost him a shot at free agency by 2 years and that's where the big $$$ is. All that for a few hundred grand signing bonus.

It's good to see the owners are wise to him after all these years of him negotiating with "ghost teams". It worked for A-Rod and Kevin Brown. It's good to see it's not working out now.

I'm all for the free market system in baseball and being sold to the highest bidder, but I can never understand why teams want to pay so much for amateur talent when they can go sign proven major league talent.

Bobby Seay and Travis Lee are two guys that come to mind. Didn't both get a $7-10 mill. contract when they were drafted? I think Bobby Seay had a cup of coffee in the majors and Travis Lee has proven to be nothing but a journeymen. Even JD Drew hasn't lived up to the hype, but he has fulfilled his potential as an injury waiting to happen.

Bob

Juan Pizarro
02-12-2003, 01:49 PM
Wasn't Bobby Hill a Boras client, too?

jeremyb1
02-12-2003, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by gosox41

Boras is a moron. His theory of always holding out until you get what you want hasn't always worked. I forgot the catcher he tried that with (he was highly regarded in college and played for the Royals at some point in the last couple of years). Anyway all the holding out cost him a shot at free agency by 2 years and that's where the big $$$ is. All that for a few hundred grand signing bonus.

boras' problem is that he can't accept failure. he's always going to ask for the most he could conceivably get and then refuse to budge from that amount. i can think of numerous cases where he's obviously hurt his clients. did bobby hill really benefit from playing independant ball for a year just so that he could get a couple thousand extra dollars?

i believe matt harington was a boras client. he was drafted in the first round and over at least a few million by the rockies out of highschool and turned it down. he then decided to play in the independant leagues for a season where he saw his velocity and stock drop dramatically. suprsingly, the padres still took him in the second round the next season and offered him 1.5 million which he again turned down. boras helped this kid turn down around 3 million, then 1.5 million. its entirely possible that he'll get next to nothing now. isn't it great to have an agent who can help you cash in?

if not for tom hicks and the rangers, boras would be far less successful.

gosox41
02-12-2003, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by Juan Pizarro
Wasn't Bobby Hill a Boras client, too?

I forgot about him. I like the way Boras hypes these players up as can't miss players and future All Stars, but then proceeds to take ridculous chances by taking a year off to go to a higher bidder next season. All this is makes this future alleged great player wait a year before he really cashed in on free agency. Of course that player is risking injury just to make a couple of hundred thousand dollars but ultimately could costing himself millions.

If anything, the last year has taught some that baseball salaries aren't going to increase by double digits every season.

Boras is a pud. But so is JR. He knowingly hates Boras and won't deal with him, yet he wastes high draft picks on players that could help the team. I'm all for avoiding Boras, but if you know you're not going to be able to sign a player it's dumb to even waste a top pick on him. Especially for a team that's so reliant on their farm system.

Bob

ChiSox14305635
02-12-2003, 09:18 PM
Boras strikes again. (God, I hate that guy!) :angry:

And Rogers doesn't want the chance to play for a winner, huh? Well, **** him. We'll take the whole damn prize, with or without him. Loaiza, Glover, & Heredia can hold the fort until Rauch is ready to assume the 5th spot full time.

I don't know where Scott Boras thinks he's going to land Rogers at. The Yankees don't need anyone else. Boston ain't goin' anywhere, & Rogers probably won't pitch in the NL (that is, unless Boras can convince some dumb team to throw a forkload of cash Roger's way). This was his best opportunity at a winner, & he blew it. Come October, he'll be sorry he did.

Lip Man 1
02-12-2003, 09:25 PM
We'll take the whole damn prize, with or without him. Loaiza, Glover, & Heredia can hold the fort until Rauch is ready to assume the 5th spot full time

I think you're pretty emotional in this post and aren't thinking clearly.

First off none of the guys that you mentioned are ready or able to do a lot this year.

Second, the Sox aren't going to or winning the Series even if they had Rogers. Like I've been saying, let's win the division and win a home playoff game.

When 80% of your starting rotation each has less then three years experience in the major leagues (and that includes Buehrle) the best case scenario is to beat out the Twins and win a game or two in the first round. Maybe if things break right to go to the second round but unfortunately that's all.

The payroll still isn't large enough to start dreaming the impossible dream.

Lip

ChiSox14305635
02-12-2003, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
We'll take the whole damn prize, with or without him. Loaiza, Glover, & Heredia can hold the fort until Rauch is ready to assume the 5th spot full time

I think you're pretty emotional in this post and aren't thinking clearly.

First off none of the guys that you mentioned are ready or able to do a lot this year.

Second, the Sox aren't going to or winning the Series even if they had Rogers. Like I've been saying, let's win the division and win a home playoff game.

When 80% of your starting rotation each has less then three years experience in the major leagues (and that includes Buehrle) the best case scenario is to beat out the Twins and win a game or two in the first round. Maybe if things break right to go to the second round but unfortunately that's all.

The payroll still isn't large enough to start dreaming the impossible dream.

Lip



I respect your opinion, but think about it: Did anyone, outside of themselves and their fans really think Anaheim was going to win the Series? They played in the same division as Oakland and Seattle, who, the year before each had 100 win seasons. Coming into 2002, the Angels were considered a last place team in the AL West behind the M's, A's & Rangers. And while Seattle and Texas are still waiting for their first WS champ & Oakland had to ponder what never was, the Angels were riding on cloud 9. Even though the Yankees have retooled for the postseason, & the various teams in the NL are getting ready, I have to have strong optimism for the White Sox. We weren't supposed to win 95 games in 2000, and yet we did. I think Bartolo Colon is not Todd Ritchie, or David Wells for that matter. He's a proven winner that should benefit from our offense. Buerhle is an emerging star and even if he suffers a slight letdown this year, I think Garland and Wright will be able to step it up. Cooper's got the pitcher's heads on straight & the offense should be the direct beneficiary. Have faith, my friend. The World Series awaits us. :)

Lip Man 1
02-12-2003, 09:43 PM
The Angels pay roll last season was in the mid 60's, that's STILL ten to thirteen million more then the Sox at this point in time.

It's not happening without more and better pitching. Since that's not coming our way, let's try to win a division and watch the tapes of it next Winter.

Lip

Bmr31
02-12-2003, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
The Angels pay roll last season was in the mid 60's, that's STILL ten to thirteen million more then the Sox at this point in time.

It's not happening without more and better pitching. Since that's not coming our way, let's try to win a division and watch the tapes of it next Winter.

Lip


LOL what the hell does payroll have to do with anything?

ChiSox14305635
02-12-2003, 09:48 PM
And part of that Angels payroll: Sele (inactive on playoff roster), Appier (ineffective in playoffs), Vaughn (3000 miles away in NY). If we can simply improve on 2 key fundamentals (defense and baserunning), I don't see any reason why the Sox can't be in the hunt for the World Series. The pieces are there, we just need to execute.

EnricoPallazzo
02-13-2003, 02:42 AM
Hey Lip, good point about Boras having 150 clients who are all but unavailable to the Sox. KW would have to work very hard to land any of them. But it can be done by going around Boras to the press, so the player gets a better idea of what may be offered.

Also agree that winning the World Series is highly unlikely. I can't off hand think of any solid pitchers other than Millwood (and Colon) who have been moved this off season, but the Sox had to pick up another good veteran pitcher to be serious Series contenders. It still could happen before the trading though, if things fall right and JR decides to stop the nickel biting.

I think there is a little more hope than you realize.

EnricoPallazzo
02-13-2003, 03:15 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Boston seems like the only viable alternative that I can think of. They, presumably, had money budgeted for Colon and/or Contreras that is still laying around waiting to be spent. They have a rotation of Martinez, Lowe, Wakefield, Fossum and Birkett, I believe. I don't doubt for a minute that they'd like to add Rogers to that mix and send Birkett to the pen (of Fossum to AAA). Like the Sox, they don't have a lot of rotation depth, so Rogers would make some sense.

I think the Other Sox are still paying Burkett a tidy sum and I doubt that they would hold Fossum back any longer. They will certainly keep those two in the rotation for a month or so before making any changes. They could not offer Rogers a spot in the rotation so I can't imagine him wanting to go there, nor can I see them offering him a contract at this time.

FanOf14
02-13-2003, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by ChiSox14305635
I respect your opinion, but think about it: Did anyone, outside of themselves and their fans really think Anaheim was going to win the Series?

Dammit! you stole the words right out of my head!!! :D:

It would be nice to see the World Series winner be another "Who'd a thunk it?" team.

maurice
02-13-2003, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
It's really not that complicated, though I had to keep repeating myself over and over and over again--and still many of you couldn't figure it out.

Take a deep breath and let it go, George. Just 'cause some folks don't agree with you doesn't mean that they're just not bright enough to understand your brilliantly articulated, extremely repetitive arguments. There's no need to spill this over into yet another thread. Some of the best and brightest posters (e.g., Lip, Randar, Kermit, etc.) disagree on things and then move on. This variety of opinions is what makes the board interesting.

Lip Man 1
02-13-2003, 12:13 PM
Gang:

With legitimate question marks at second base, center field, catcher, the field manager (as others have pointed out) and in my opinion STILL in starting pitching, a lot of things would have to go right.

Can it happen?..sure. WILL it happen?..well for what it's worth, the folks in Vegas, who make their living by doing these things, don't think so.

The Sox would have to overcome the Yankees, Red Sox, A's, Angels, Twins and maybe the Mariners to do it. Those are pretty long odds don't you think?

All I'm saying is I won't be disappointed just getting to the playoffs since I think that's the only goal management is targeting (and budgeting) for.

Lip

PaleHoseGeorge
02-13-2003, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Take a deep breath and let it go, George. Just 'cause some folks don't agree with you doesn't mean that they're just not bright enough to understand your brilliantly articulated, extremely repetitive arguments. There's no need to spill this over into yet another thread. Some of the best and brightest posters (e.g., Lip, Randar, Kermit, etc.) disagree on things and then move on. This variety of opinions is what makes the board interesting.

LOL! Maurice, I summed up my entire position in Post #1 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17064) of that thread. There is virtually NOTHING in the subsequent 100 posts that even remotely adds to what I summed up right at the top. If you wonder why I was repeating myself, look no further than the mirror.

But since you think I've "brilliantly articulated" my position (repeatedly, no less), I'm still left scratching my head about yours. Along with plenty of others, I still don't understand why you wouldn't be in favor adding Rogers to the staff, excepting for problems with the Sox even you agreed aren't fixed by not signing Rogers.

Sorry pal, but the ridiculous insults you tossed around don't count as argument. If your position gets challenged it's precisely because you invited it.

Whining about your plight doesn't raise your credibility either.

maurice
02-13-2003, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I summed up my entire position in Post #1 of that thread.

And every other interested poster summed up their positions as well, presenting an interesting diversity of opinon. However, now that the actual topic has been beaten to death, you're using a different thread to present ad hominem attacks on my "credibility," rather than attacking the arguments themselves, a common logical error.

For example, there's a fine but important distinction between: (1) calling an argument "bizarre" or premised on a "bizarre" sense of the operative facts, and (2) calling a person "bizarre." No. 1 is standard, hyperbolic rhetoric. No. 2 is unfair and has no place in an argument. If anyone else here doesn't agree with this distinction, then I hereby apologize to George.

In any event, when a debate reaches this point (on either side), it's wise to call a truce and talk about something else. I've done so by explicitly "agreeing to disagree" and by no longer reading the previous thread. I wish you would let it go also.

Finally, my credibility is, at the very least, extremely "off-topic" So, why don't you take it to the Parking Lot, where folks interested in discussing the Sox can ignore it more efficiently? Since I'm not actually your "pal," and you know virtually nothing about me personally, I'll start you off with an accurate personal attack: "maurice is a lowzey speller."

PaleHoseGeorge
02-13-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by maurice
And every other interested poster summed up their positions as well, presenting an interesting diversity of opinon. However, now that the actual topic has been beaten to death, you're using a different thread to present ad hominem attacks on my "credibility," rather than attacking the arguments themselves, a common logical error.

For example, there's a fine but important distinction between: (1) calling an argument "bizarre" or premised on a "bizarre" sense of the operative facts, and (2) calling a person "bizarre." No. 1 is standard, hyperbolic rhetoric. No. 2 is unfair and has no place in an argument. If anyone else here doesn't agree with this distinction, then I hereby apologize to George.

In any event, when a debate reaches this point (on either side), it's wise to call a truce and talk about something else. I've done so by explicitly "agreeing to disagree" and by no longer reading the previous thread. I wish you would let it go also.

Finally, my credibility is, at the very least, extremely "off-topic" So, why don't you take it to the Parking Lot, where folks interested in discussing the Sox can ignore it more efficiently? Since I'm not actually your "pal," and you know virtually nothing about me personally, I'll start you off with an accurate personal attack: "maurice is a lowzey speller."

Very well. We don't agree. No need to go to the Parking Lot with any of it.

What this board needs is a good thread about Royce Clayton!

:smile:

voodoochile
02-13-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Take a deep breath and let it go, George. Just 'cause some folks don't agree with you doesn't mean that they're just not bright enough to understand your brilliantly articulated, extremely repetitive arguments. There's no need to spill this over into yet another thread. Some of the best and brightest posters (e.g., Lip, Randar, Kermit, etc.) disagree on things and then move on. This variety of opinions is what makes the board interesting.

It takes two to argue...

fuzzy_patters
02-14-2003, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
It takes two to argue...

Way to fan the flames, voodoochile. :D: