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voodoochile
02-11-2003, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
The newest theory is that Sox management is too inept to use an upgraded pitching staff effectively. (I borrowed this quote from the Why not upgrade the pitching staff? (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17064) thread but didn't want to hi-jack it, so I started a new one.)

Since when did KW and JM become fan favorites and competent managers of a MLB team? Since the acquisition of Koch and Colon? I guess it is true that talent makes the coach...

Have we all forgotten about the troubles that have plagued the clubhouse and team in the past few years? Has JM promised to stop tinkering? Has KW said he will stay out of the clubhouse when the Sox lose 3 in a row (as they surely will at least once this season - Brahma help us if it happens in April)? Has Manuel suddenly become adept at handling the egos that always accompany running a professional sports team?

I think the Sox talent is sufficient to make a run at the pennant this year with or without Rogers (though I think Rogers makes it more likely). Yes, that probably makes me a homer and a blind optimist, but hey, I'm a fan and there is nothing inherently rational in wearing that title. I am not sold on the idea that Manuel and KW can get this team to point C. KW does seem to be improving, or maybe he just got lucky that the economy tanked, the owners decided to keep the money for themselves and the bottom fell out of the player market - time will tell on him. JM on the other hand has proven over and over again that he is at least a little lost while learning on the job as the manager of our beloved Sox.

So, is Sox management actually competent to take the team to the next level? At this point, I think the jury is out, but if they can't get results with this team (which should score 900 runs and have at least 2 starters with close to 20 wins) then something definitely needs to be done...

LuvSox
02-11-2003, 12:01 PM
Are KW and JM fan favorites? NO. Can JM lead this team to point c? NO. (See 'Quoth Fisk' thread.) Have we forgotten the troubles of the past? NO. I think KW stumbled upon every transaction this off-season. He is an arrogant jag. I love the Sox and hope for nothing but the best but we still have problems, too bad they are at the top of the organization.

idseer
02-11-2003, 12:15 PM
thank you voodoo. i agree completely!

if there is a factor that could tip the balance between excellence and mediocrity on this club it is jm. he may be likable, he may be a nice guy, he may even be an intelligent man ... but he is a lousy manager.

Iwritecode
02-11-2003, 12:49 PM
I think this may be one of the arguements in that thread. It's sad to know that people are afraid to upgrade the team because they don't think the management would be able to handle it.

Lip Man 1
02-11-2003, 12:58 PM
In my opinion this "management" team still isn't good enough to get the Sox to a World Series let alone win one. That's also includes Uncle Jerry because the payroll needed to get to a series has to be a LOT higher then what it is now.

Like I said, I'll be happy if the Sox can get to October and win a home playoff game.

Lip

hold2dibber
02-11-2003, 01:36 PM
I think the jury is still out on KW and JM. JR has a 20 year track record, and it's not a good one, even though he wants to win more than the fans do. But I still hold out some hope.

Just about every move KW has made as GM has been for the right reasons. I mean, you may complain that he overpaid in the Ritchie deal, or that Clayton wasn't worth the money and bad for chemistry, etc., etc., but all of those deals were made with an eye toward a specific problem. The deals largely looked good on paper. But most haven't worked out. From this I take the following - KW has guts and he is aggressive in trying to improve the team, but has a long way to go in terms of identifying the right individuals to make that happen (both coming and going). But there are signs that he's improving in the second area. Marte for Guerrier looks like a steal. Bradford for Olivo may not prove to be a "steal," but the Sox desparately needed a good catching prospect and KW got a damn good one for a middle reliever. Not bad. And this offseasons moves have been impressive. I hate that JR is so comfortable hiring people in important positions and letting them learn on the job, but I think there's reason to believe that KW is in fact learning.

JM has always struck me as good at keeping players focused and largely happy. He's horrific at game strategy. I don't see that ever improving. But with the talent this team has, if he can just get them playing to potential, they're good enough to win 90 games despite his lousy strategy machinations.

Iwritecode
02-11-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I think the jury is still out on KW and JM. JR has a 20 year track record, and it's not a good one, even though he wants to win more than the fans do. But I still hold out some hope.

Just about every move KW has made as GM has been for the right reasons. I mean, you may complain that he overpaid in the Ritchie deal, or that Clayton wasn't worth the money and bad for chemistry, etc., etc., but all of those deals were made with an eye toward a specific problem. The deals largely looked good on paper. But most haven't worked out. From this I take the following - KW has guts and he is aggressive in trying to improve the team, but has a long way to go in terms of identifying the right individuals to make that happen (both coming and going). But there are signs that he's improving in the second area. Marte for Guerrier looks like a steal. Bradford for Olivo may not prove to be a "steal," but the Sox desparately needed a good catching prospect and KW got a damn good one for a middle reliever. Not bad. And this offseasons moves have been impressive. I hate that JR is so comfortable hiring people in important positions and letting them learn on the job, but I think there's reason to believe that KW is in fact learning.

JM has always struck me as good at keeping players focused and largely happy. He's horrific at game strategy. I don't see that ever improving. But with the talent this team has, if he can just get them playing to potential, they're good enough to win 90 games despite his lousy strategy machinations.

Yea, what he said... :D:

idseer
02-11-2003, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


Just about every move KW has made as GM has been for the right reasons. I mean, you may complain that he overpaid in the Ritchie deal, or that Clayton wasn't worth the money and bad for chemistry, etc., etc., but all of those deals were made with an eye toward a specific problem. The deals largely looked good on paper. But most haven't worked out.

i'm not sure what you're trying to say here. do you mean there are gm's who don't trade for the right reasons? that they aren't trying to solve specific problems? frankly, i don't buy this. i mean, that's why they're gm's. i don't think anyone thinks kw isn't trying. but you nailed it when you said "But most haven't worked out"
granted, some of his lesser known acquisitions may turn out pretty good. but i still think his success rate is under 50%. add to that the fact that he undermines his own coach, has spies (that apparently aren't very well hidden), favors crony-ism and even is not sure who he's trading for at times, i'd say overall he's been below average as a gm.

he may get better, unlike manual who will never get better, but personally, i doubt it.

DustyIsOverated1
02-11-2003, 03:38 PM
bitch bitch bitch

Play Ball!

maurice
02-11-2003, 03:55 PM
I essentially agree with voodoo's take on KW and JM.

Since KW's recent deals have been better than the few stinkers from years past, I am hopeful that he is improving as a GM and will perform well hereafter. I am particularly interested to see what he will do if the Sox are in contention around the trade deadline.

By contrast, I have much less faith in JM's ability to handle a major league ballclub.

gosox41
02-11-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I essentially agree with voodoo's take on KW and JM.

Since KW's recent deals have been better than the few stinkers from years past, I am hopeful that he is improving as a GM and will perform well hereafter. I am particularly interested to see what he will do if the Sox are in contention around the trade deadline.

By contrast, I have much less faith in JM's ability to handle a major league ballclub.

I think KW is starting to listen to knowledgable fans, like this newsgroup. It took him long enough since it's obvious he is incompetent and in over his head.

Bob

hold2dibber
02-11-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i'm not sure what you're trying to say here. do you mean there are gm's who don't trade for the right reasons? that they aren't trying to solve specific problems? frankly, i don't buy this. i mean, that's why they're gm's. i don't think anyone thinks kw isn't trying.

My point is that he identifies areas in which the team needs improvement, has a plan for improving in those areas, and gets it done. I don't think you can say that about all GMs. Many operate in a rather willy-nilly fashion, biting on players they don't need, bringing in players for PR purpose instead of true team needs, etc. After '00, he identified defense at SS as a problem and he went out and got a defensive SS. He thought the Sox needed a no. 1 to get them over the hump and he went out and got Wells. Frankly, I didn't see this for the last 4 or 5 years of the Schu regime, and I'm pretty sure the people in Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Tampa Bay, Kansas City, Philadelphia (until this offseason) and others would say that their GMs have failed in this as well. KW identifies needs and his aggressive in pursuing players he thinks will satisfy those needs. Again, that alone does not a good GM make, but at least he has a plan, unlike many others.

Originally posted by idseer
but you nailed it when you said "But most haven't worked out"
granted, some of his lesser known acquisitions may turn out pretty good. but i still think his success rate is under 50%. add to that the fact that he undermines his own coach, has spies (that apparently aren't very well hidden), favors crony-ism and even is not sure who he's trading for at times, i'd say overall he's been below average as a gm.

he may get better, unlike manual who will never get better, but personally, i doubt it.

I'm not going to try to do the math, but I think he's probably hitting at about 50% on his trades to date. The only real clunkers I can think of are the Ritchie deal, the Clayton deal and the Durham deal. Most have been a wash. I think the Olivo deal, the Marte deal, the Lofton deal and the Colon deal all look awfully good. But your points regarding the spies in the clubhouse, crony-ism, etc. are well taken. Although I'm hoping that the fact that Daryl Boston didn't joint the club as 3B coach is a good sign that he's learned his lesson on the cronyism.

Overall, since his hiring, I'd give him a C-. Prior to this offseason, I would have had him at a D. I'm seeing improvement, but he's far from being out of the woods yet.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-11-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
(I borrowed this quote from the Why not upgrade the pitching staff? (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17064) thread but didn't want to hi-jack it, so I started a new one.)

Since when did KW and JM become fan favorites and competent managers of a MLB team? Since the acquisition of Koch and Colon? I guess it is true that talent makes the coach...

Have we all forgotten about the troubles that have plagued the clubhouse and team in the past few years? Has JM promised to stop tinkering? Has KW said he will stay out of the clubhouse when the Sox lose 3 in a row (as they surely will at least once this season - Brahma help us if it happens in April)? Has Manuel suddenly become adept at handling the egos that always accompany running a professional sports team?

I think the Sox talent is sufficient to make a run at the pennant this year with or without Rogers (though I think Rogers makes it more likely). Yes, that probably makes me a homer and a blind optimist, but hey, I'm a fan and there is nothing inherently rational in wearing that title. I am not sold on the idea that Manuel and KW can get this team to point C. KW does seem to be improving, or maybe he just got lucky that the economy tanked, the owners decided to keep the money for themselves and the bottom fell out of the player market - time will tell on him. JM on the other hand has proven over and over again that he is at least a little lost while learning on the job as the manager of our beloved Sox.

So, is Sox management actually competent to take the team to the next level? At this point, I think the jury is out, but if they can't get results with this team (which should score 900 runs and have at least 2 starters with close to 20 wins) then something definitely needs to be done...

The idiot we all came to know and hate as Sox GM the past two winters, Kenny Williams, never would have gotten all the principals together to do the Bartolo Colon deal. The past month around here has seen a marked decline in jokes made at his expense. I, for one, was impressed. So was Yankees GM Brian Cashman. He gave Kenny the credit getting the deal done.

I'm more concerned about Manuel. Coming in green and unproven in 1998, he seemed to have his finger on the pulse of the team in 1999 and 2000. If the '00 Sox were truly lucky to win 95 games, I think Manuel deserves most of the credit for making that luck. The team was up for those big series in May and June and basically clinched the division before the all-star break. However, Manuel has shown impatience and poor judgment in his personnel moves the last two years. If anything, he has regressed the past two years. He definitely lost control of his team last July. I'm not convinced he is truly major league managerial material. I'm pretty sure this is Jerry's last season as manager unless the team makes the playoffs.

As for Reinsdorf... well at least he seems more motivated to field a winner today than he did last fall when I was using this in my sig file.

:selljerry

I know this much for fact: the Sox aren't going anywhere unless they upgrade their talent. Hoping for more talent on the field is far easier than hoping for more talent in the front office or ownership suite. This is the best I've felt about the team since May, 2001, thank you very much.

:gulp:

jeremyb1
02-11-2003, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I'm more concerned about Manuel. Coming in green and unproven in 1998, he seemed to have his finger on the pulse of the team in 1999 and 2000. If the '00 Sox were truly lucky to win 95 games, I think Manuel deserves most of the credit for making that luck. The team was up for those big series in May and June and basically clinched the division before the all-star break. However, Manuel has shown impatience and poor judgment in his personnel moves the last two years. If anything, he has regressed the past two years. He definitely lost control of his team last July. I'm not convinced he is truly major league managerial material. I'm pretty sure this is Jerry's last season as manager unless the team makes the playoffs.

you make an interesting point here. most have chosen to view the situation as "we had a 95 win team in '00 and thanks to mistakes by kw and jm we haven't come close to that figure yet". however, what if we had an 85 win team in '00 and manuel was such a good manager, he coaxed 95 wins out of them. how can you blame him for the team's lack of success the past two seasons just because he was exceptional in '00 and only good the past two seasons?

WinningUgly!
02-11-2003, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


I'm more concerned about Manuel. Coming in green and unproven in 1998, he seemed to have his finger on the pulse of the team in 1999 and 2000. If the '00 Sox were truly lucky to win 95 games, I think Manuel deserves most of the credit for making that luck. The team was up for those big series in May and June and basically clinched the division before the all-star break. However, Manuel has shown impatience and poor judgment in his personnel moves the last two years. If anything, he has regressed the past two years. He definitely lost control of his team last July. I'm not convinced he is truly major league managerial material. I'm pretty sure this is Jerry's last season as manager unless the team makes the playoffs.


I agree that Manuel is gone, if he doesn't make the playoffs this season, but I blame most of his managing "problems" this past season (or two) on Kenny Williams' screw ups. JM was forced to constantly shuffle guys around & play them out of position to keep heat off of KW. Clayton comes to town, so Valentin moves to the OF. That doesn't workout, so Herbert Perry is dealt away to make room for Jose there. You can't tell me that the Sox wouldn't have been a better team the last 2 seasons with Perry/Crede at 3rd & Valentin at SS over Valentin at 3rd & Clayton at SS! Manuel was just playing the sad hand he was dealt & tried to make something happen with it.

He also had Jeff Liefer pissing & moaning about playing time. Lief should have been unloaded a few years ago, but KW couldn't do it...so JM had to work an undeserving guy into a lineup that had no place for him, in order to "showcase" him.

Don't forget about Todd Ritchie! Anybody think JM would have been able to pull him out of the rotation before his "injury"?

Jerry Manuel is not a bad manager, KW has just been a bad puppeteer. He's done a much better job acquiring talent this off-season, hopefully he'll make as many strides in other areas of his general managing.

hold2dibber
02-11-2003, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
you make an interesting point here. most have chosen to view the situation as "we had a 95 win team in '00 and thanks to mistakes by kw and jm we haven't come close to that figure yet". however, what if we had an 85 win team in '00 and manuel was such a good manager, he coaxed 95 wins out of them. how can you blame him for the team's lack of success the past two seasons just because he was exceptional in '00 and only good the past two seasons?

It's a good point, but even assuming for a second that the '00 team really only had 85 win talent and JM was responsible for coaxing an extra 10 wins out of them, I think you've given short shrift to his job since then. I don't blame Manual at all of '01. With D. Wells worthless, Big Hurt out for the year, Parque out for the year, JB ineffective and then traded, Simas out for the year, etc., I think it was a major accomplishment to win 83 games. But last year was different. I know the Sox had some rotation problems. Ritchie sucked/was hurt and Garland and Wright didn't get the job done on a consistent basis until it was too late. But that team was dead and flat in May/June/July and it was not just the pitching. The offense went into prolonged funks, the baserunning was crappy, no hustle, no heart - in short, Corpse Ball. And, IMHO, it is the manager's fault when that happens.

And I also think that in '00 and '01, when I thought Manuel did okay, he still sucked at in-game strategic moves. For God's sake, he wouldn't pitch hit for Clayton if George Hermann Ruth were available.

idseer
02-11-2003, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
you make an interesting point here. most have chosen to view the situation as "we had a 95 win team in '00 and thanks to mistakes by kw and jm we haven't come close to that figure yet". however, what if we had an 85 win team in '00 and manuel was such a good manager, he coaxed 95 wins out of them. how can you blame him for the team's lack of success the past two seasons just because he was exceptional in '00 and only good the past two seasons?


the fact is jm had all his success in only the first half of '00. when everyone played lights out. they went .500 the rest of the way, remember? now was jm a great manager then just forgot everything halfway thru the season?
even tho there were some injuries as part of the reason for the poor second half, i remember him making the same kinds of moves then as he's made the last 2 years.
i think the more likely scenario is that jm was NEVER any good and that the 1st half of '00 was .......... all together now .....
a FLUKE!