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kermittheefrog
01-30-2003, 10:19 PM
Interesting Stuff:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/20030130thr.shtml

gogosoxgogo
01-30-2003, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Interesting Stuff:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/20030130thr.shtml

Interesting stuff. I'm kind of disapointed they didn't include Olivo, I think he'd get a green. Paul shouldn't have gotten a yellow IMO. Just because he sucks, doesn't mean he's injury prone. I'm not as worried about Buehrle as they are. He'll be fine, and will probably be better IMO. You can attribute his drop in K's and slight rise in ERA from 2001 to him losing his element of surprise on opposing batters. I'm more concerned about Colon than I am about Buehrle. Rauch should be OK, it will have been 2 years since his injury when the season starts, and I don't follow the logic behind, "He's 6'11" so he's going to be injured".

Iguana775
01-30-2003, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
Interesting stuff. I'm kind of disapointed they didn't include Olivo, I think he'd get a green. Paul shouldn't have gotten a yellow IMO. Just because he sucks, doesn't mean he's injury prone. I'm not as worried about Buehrle as they are. He'll be fine, and will probably be better IMO. You can attribute his drop in K's and slight rise in ERA from 2001 to him losing his element of surprise on opposing batters. I'm more concerned about Colon than I am about Buehrle. Rauch should be OK, it will have been 2 years since his injury when the season starts, and I don't follow the logic behind, "He's 6'11" so he's going to be injured".

Yea, that logic is kind of lame.

SoxxoS
01-30-2003, 10:34 PM
Can anyone list pitchers who have had successful careers after torn labrum surgery?? His quote "the dreaded" torn labrum surgery, and what I read on the internet about how much worse the labrum surgery is compared to Tommy John, maybe we won't be able to count on Rauch...

WinningUgly!
01-30-2003, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
Rauch should be OK, it will have been 2 years since his injury when the season starts, and I don't follow the logic behind, "He's 6'11" so he's going to be injured".

Yeah, I don't put much into that either. Randy Johnson has been able to remain healthy throughout his career. I would not be surprised to see Rauch as our #3 before this season is done.

duke of dorwood
01-30-2003, 10:36 PM
Rauch looked pretty good at the end of the year

kermittheefrog
01-30-2003, 10:45 PM
I see the logic behind his look at Buehrle and Rauch completely. The thing with Rauch isn't "he's 6'11" so he'll be hurt" it's "he's 6'11" there's no one to compare him to so it's hard to know how to handle him." Having no precendent makes you a bigger risk.

As for Buehrle, drops in K rates are never good and Buehrle isn't yet out of the woods as far as young pitcher injuries. On the bright side the Sox have done a better job limitting the mileage on Buehrle's arm than he made it seem. Logging consecutive 200 IP seasons at ages 22 & 23 is a reason to proceed with caution no matter who it is. I think if he's healthy throughout next year then we can quit worrying.

MarkEdward
01-30-2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I see the logic behind his look at Buehrle and Rauch completely. The thing with Rauch isn't "he's 6'11" so he'll be hurt" it's "he's 6'11" there's no one to compare him to so it's hard to know how to handle him." Having no precendent makes you a bigger risk.


I can't buy this. To me, your reasoning is that since there's never been a pitcher as tall as Rauch, he's more inclined to injury. Unless there's been a study showing that taller pitchers are more inclined to injury, I don't see why height should hinder Rauch from being a healthy pitcher.

I do agree on Buehrle, though.

jeremyb1
01-30-2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I see the logic behind his look at Buehrle and Rauch completely. The thing with Rauch isn't "he's 6'11" so he'll be hurt" it's "he's 6'11" there's no one to compare him to so it's hard to know how to handle him." Having no precendent makes you a bigger risk.

As for Buehrle, drops in K rates are never good and Buehrle isn't yet out of the woods as far as young pitcher injuries. On the bright side the Sox have done a better job limitting the mileage on Buehrle's arm than he made it seem. Logging consecutive 200 IP seasons at ages 22 & 23 is a reason to proceed with caution no matter who it is. I think if he's healthy throughout next year then we can quit worrying.

yeah. i agree with most all of their arguments as far as health goes. i think some concern over rauch is definately warranted although i'm not sure i disagree with the logic that just because there's no one to compare rauch to and hence no data that other pitchers have come back, he won't come back. if you don't know which way to go i'd lean towards the pitcher recovering as opposed to recovering considering the recovery rate for labrum surgery is certainly over 50%.

what upsets me the most is lines such as "It was more the media collectively releasing the tension of a long, drawn-out Bartolo Colon trade than actual fact that led everyone to suddenly brand the White Sox as the AL Central favorite." personally, i haven't ready anyone outside of maybe phil rogers call us the central favorites.

even more frustrating to me is the comment "Colon won't be as bad as Wells was in his Sox stint, but this acquisition alone doesn't put them in position to challenge the Twins." so we're not even a sure thing to be in contention with the twins? is that possible? lets say colon only gives us three more wins. that's 84 wins compared to 94 last season for the twins. that'd keep us in contention most of the season. i don't want to put too much emphasis on one stat and i feel like i'm beating this horse to death but both teams have the same pathagorean record allowing for the argument that the twins weren't even better than us last season only luckier. i thought we were in contention with the twins in the central before colon and to say we might not even contend now strikes me as completely ludicrous.

RichH55
01-31-2003, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I see the logic behind his look at Buehrle and Rauch completely. The thing with Rauch isn't "he's 6'11" so he'll be hurt" it's "he's 6'11" there's no one to compare him to so it's hard to know how to handle him." Having no precendent makes you a bigger risk.

As for Buehrle, drops in K rates are never good and Buehrle isn't yet out of the woods as far as young pitcher injuries. On the bright side the Sox have done a better job limitting the mileage on Buehrle's arm than he made it seem. Logging consecutive 200 IP seasons at ages 22 & 23 is a reason to proceed with caution no matter who it is. I think if he's healthy throughout next year then we can quit worrying.

Kermit....I agree with you on Buerhle...and his health does in fact worry me....But the logic on Jon was rather weak, at best its one of those things you could spin either way, and not having a ton of evidence to work with kind of goes against what you believe in, no?

kermittheefrog
01-31-2003, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Kermit....I agree with you on Buerhle...and his health does in fact worry me....But the logic on Jon was rather weak, at best its one of those things you could spin either way, and not having a ton of evidence to work with kind of goes against what you believe in, no?

The evidence really is against Rauch. Major shoulder surgery can end careers. I don't think being tall is an advantage for him either. This comes in as far as mechanics and trying to keep him healthy in the future.

jeremyb1
01-31-2003, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
The evidence really is against Rauch. Major shoulder surgery can end careers. I don't think being tall is an advantage for him either. This comes in as far as mechanics and trying to keep him healthy in the future.


i agree with that but other than the aforementioned concerns about his height, i've never heard anyone raise specific concerns about rauch's mechanics. he doesn't have obviously detrimental mechanics. it should also be noted that before his surgery in '00 he'd pitched quite a few innings. like i said before i definately agree he's a pretty sizable health risk, but they make him sound like ryan anderson in that article.

upnorthsox
01-31-2003, 08:42 AM
Rauch had an impingement not a torn labrum so at best this guy's analysis is inaccurate. Like in any team sport injuries are a part of the game and a teams ability to rise above them is a key to any season. Not one of the playoff teams last yr got thru the season without having to deal with an injury to a starter or pitcher.

SoxxoS
01-31-2003, 11:57 AM
I could have sworn Rauch had a torn labrum upnorthsox. What is an "impingement?" Also-Still, does anyone know anyone who has came back and had a successful career after undergoing torn labrum surgery?

Randar68
01-31-2003, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
The evidence really is against Rauch. Major shoulder surgery can end careers. I don't think being tall is an advantage for him either. This comes in as far as mechanics and trying to keep him healthy in the future.

Kermit talking about mechanics....LOL

stick to numbers.

Rauch had an impingement not a torn labrum so at best this guy's analysis is inaccurate. Like in any team sport injuries are a part of the game and a teams ability to rise above them is a key to any season. Not one of the playoff teams last yr got thru the season without having to deal with an injury to a starter or pitcher.

Took until the last post for someone to finally catch this. Nothing like inaccurate and/or lazy reporting.

Randar68
01-31-2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I could have sworn Rauch had a torn labrum upnorthsox. What is an "impingement?" Also-Still, does anyone know anyone who has came back and had a successful career after undergoing torn labrum surgery?


It was a loose body impinging upon his shoulder/labrum. There was no tear beyond normal wear for a pitcher his age.

How long has it taken Sirotka to come back? Torn Labrum is VERY serious. Jon's rehab was short and he was back on the hill for Spring Training.

Do your homework, people.

kermittheefrog
01-31-2003, 01:28 PM
Can someone please show some proof he had an impingement rather than a torn labrum? I've always seen his injury referred to as a torn labrum just as it is here in last years' Sun Times preview of the Sox season:

http://www.suntimes.com/special_sections/baseball_preview_2002/stories/sox_caps.html

Huisj
01-31-2003, 01:39 PM
didn't osuna have a torn labrum?

jeremyb1
01-31-2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Can someone please show some proof he had an impingement rather than a torn labrum? I've always seen his injury referred to as a torn labrum just as it is here in last years' Sun Times preview of the Sox season:

http://www.suntimes.com/special_sections/baseball_preview_2002/stories/sox_caps.html ]

yeah. i recall rooney and farmer saying rauch had a number of different problems with his arm and that they were pretty serious.

jeremyb1
01-31-2003, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I could have sworn Rauch had a torn labrum upnorthsox. What is an "impingement?" Also-Still, does anyone know anyone who has came back and had a successful career after undergoing torn labrum surgery?

its hard for me to think of anyone offhand because there's somewhat less emphasis placed on shoulder surgery as compared to tommy john which recieves more publicity and maybe even happens more often. i can't really recall too many non-sox players that had labrum surgery period. howry supposedly has his velocity back to where it was before surgery. i'm not sure about jb. obviously he struggled last season. i'll see what i can come up with. i think a lot of guys have it over the offseason and don't miss any time so its not as widely noted.

bc2k
02-01-2003, 12:22 AM
Buehrle was asked to throw 100 or more pitches in each of his last seven starts, including 123 on the next-to-last day of the season. Why this happened with the Sox miles out of contention is anyone's guess

Talk about lazy reporting. He was pitching for his 20th win of the season which is not a meaningless game to Mark.

kermittheefrog
02-01-2003, 04:33 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
Buehrle was asked to throw 100 or more pitches in each of his last seven starts, including 123 on the next-to-last day of the season. Why this happened with the Sox miles out of contention is anyone's guess

Talk about lazy reporting. He was pitching for his 20th win of the season which is not a meaningless game to Mark.

Yeah it's so much more important for him to get that 20th win than it is for him to stay healthy in the future...

hose
02-01-2003, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Interesting Stuff:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/20030130thr.shtml


Didn't see anything on Aaron Rowand in the article.

Any news about Rowand's shoulder?