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View Full Version : Closers are overrated


Moses_Scurry
08-13-2001, 12:10 PM
All they have to do is get THREE outs. How many saves could Kerry Wood have if the cubs made him the closer? I bet if you stuck Embree in 60 games with a lead going into the ninth, he'd save 2/3 of them. Foulke is a good relief pitcher who is a real asset to the rotation, but to pay him 8-10 mil would be a very dumb move. Closers are nothing more than failed starters which the Sox seem to have plenty. Give Garland a chance to be the closer if Foulke leaves!!

Fire at will!

Bmr31
08-13-2001, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Moses_Scurry
All they have to do is get THREE outs. How many saves could Kerry Wood have if the cubs made him the closer? I bet if you stuck Embree in 60 games with a lead going into the ninth, he'd save 2/3 of them. Foulke is a good relief pitcher who is a real asset to the rotation, but to pay him 8-10 mil would be a very dumb move. Closers are nothing more than failed starters which the Sox seem to have plenty. Give Garland a chance to be the closer if Foulke leaves!!

Fire at will!


you are 100 percent correct. Keith foulke is a perfect example.

Soxboyrob
08-13-2001, 12:14 PM
Hey, why not use whichever reliever has the lowest ERA at any given time to be that day's closer? Isn't that what it comes down to? Either that, or use the guy w/ the lowest ERA over his last 5-10 appearances. That way, you're always using a hot pitcher to close your games. Sounds silly, but maybe it would work.

Bmr31
08-13-2001, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
Hey, why not use whichever reliever has the lowest ERA at any given time to be that day's closer? Isn't that what it comes down to? Either that, or use the guy w/ the lowest ERA over his last 5-10 appearances. That way, you're always using a hot pitcher to close your games. Sounds silly, but maybe it would work.


its what teh sox are doing exactly. Keith has the best era so use him as our closer. It doesnt mean hes right for the job. THATS MY POINT.

Moses_Scurry
08-13-2001, 12:37 PM
Hell, if Bobby Thigpen can get 57 saves, surely any other reliever could get 40!! Some other examples would be Mitch Williams, Heathcliffe Slocumb, Ricky Batallico, Todd Jones, the list goes on and on. If KW got a good deal for Foulke, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

Joel Perez
08-13-2001, 12:51 PM
Yes, 3 outs is just 3 outs.

But can we truly say that the closer role is overrated? Tell that to Lee Smith
Dan Quisenberry
Bruce Sutter
Dennis Eckersley
Tom Henke
Troy Percival
Billy Wagner
Goose Gossage
and the teams that they played for. Especially the A's when they had Eck all those years.

To make the final 3 outs, you must have a thick skin and a "kill-them-all" "they-ain't-touchin'-this" mentality that few possess. Yes, it is easy for just 3 outs, but these guys are the elite ballplayers in the world to get out. No easy task. They make it look easy to do--that's why they get the big bucks.

Sorry, just don't agree with that assessment at all. The closer is a prominent position in the bigs now. Not all can go the full 9 innings, plus just because a player may have a lower ERA than the closer doesn't mean he's your best overall bullpen pitcher. You have to take a look at his IP, Hits allowed, BB; everything to consider, as well as "stuff" and composure/mound presence.

Keith Foulke has that "Bulldog" mentality--save for his performance Saturday night when he imploded.

Bobby Howry is learning that--he has the stuff, now he needs to learn to bust it out on the mound and trust his stuff.

Question for you guys and gals--which White Sox would you want to close out games and WHY? And no, "just because he sucks" shouldn't count. At this point, the WS should stick with Foulke IMO--he's been there before now, and the Sox should reward him for a job well done. He, besides Mark Buehrle, have been the only constants in the pitching department this year. Foulke is a hell of a lot more than an overrated closer or to even be considered a pitcher who was just thrown into the closing chores. Give the guy some credit where it's due.

Besides....Alan Embree? I wouldn't trust him to close out ANY games until he shows us consistency. That "body language" he showed on WGN Saturday night when Nardi went out to talk to him spoke volumes--it looked as if he didn't want to hear any of it---that's a red flag in my book.

FarWestChicago
08-13-2001, 12:57 PM
To make the final 3 outs, you must have a thick skin and a "kill-them-all" "they-ain't-touchin'-this" mentality that few possess. Yes, it is easy for just 3 outs, but these guys are the elite ballplayers in the world to get out. No easy task. They make it look easy to do--that's why they get the big bucks.

Sorry, just don't agree with that assessment at all. The closer is a prominent position in the bigs now. Not all can go the full 9 innings, plus just because a player may have a lower ERA than the closer doesn't mean he's your best overall bullpen pitcher. You have to take a look at his IP, Hits allowed, BB; everything to consider, as well as "stuff" and composure/mound presence.

I was living out here when Eck was dominating the league. It was something to see a guy do that. Perfect attitude and phenomonal control.

Last year I had high hopes for Lorenzo Barcelo as our future closer. I liked his 'tude and his stuff. But, he broke down. Wright looks like he could do the job, but he may be too valuable as a starter.

Paulwny
08-13-2001, 12:59 PM
I can't add anything to what you said Joel, you covered it all, nice job.

Moses_Scurry
08-13-2001, 01:01 PM
I would keep Foulke as the closer as long as they have him, but to pay a guy 8-10 mil just to get 3 outs would be stupid. I'd rather use that + David Wells's salary to get an ace. If Foulke were to be gone, I'd say give any of the "overrated phenoms" a shot at it. Sure there have been great closers over the years, but alot of those guys you listed were from older days when closers would pitch 2 or 3 innings, something that Foulke has shown many times that he can't do.

Joel Perez
08-13-2001, 01:04 PM
Hey, thank you very much......

I must state this....I live in South Texas (BMR31 country) and see the Sox whenever I can....but I've been watching baseball for the last 20 years to realize what it takes to be a closer.

Guys like Todd Jones, who throws monster cheese would be good in a place like the Astrodome...oh wait nevermind, he pitched at Comerica, so that is like the Dome....ANYWAY....closers do need 2 or 3 pitches to make it....

Say, while I'm thinking about the Tigers...remember Matt Anderson? He sucked for two years while harnessing his 101 MPH fastball, wicked slider and offspeed to be groomed into a closer...why? HE HAD TO LEARN ON THE JOB!!! And the Tigers admitted they rushed him when they demoted him to AAA last year during the season.

Which proves my point--100MPH does not make an elite closer. You still have to get the guy out and close the game.

But Matt has been doing a not-bad job lately.

Joel Perez
08-13-2001, 01:06 PM
I would keep Foulke as the closer as long as they have him, but to pay a guy 8-10 mil just to get 3 outs would be stupid. I'd rather use that + David Wells's salary to get an ace. If Foulke were to be gone, I'd say give any of the "overrated phenoms" a shot at it. Sure there have been great closers over the years, but alot of those guys you listed were from older days when closers would pitch 2 or 3 innings, something that Foulke has shown many times that he can't do.--By Moses_Scurry

That's the only problem I have with Keith. You have to "Walk" in order to "Run". Only 2 1/2 years on the closer job, and he's asking for a ton of money already.