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DustyIsOverated1
01-29-2003, 04:16 PM
Billy Koch signed a two-year deal with the sox today...check out chicago sports.

Man, the Sox are really gettin good at this.

ChiWhiteSox1337
01-29-2003, 04:19 PM
hooray

duke of dorwood
01-29-2003, 04:40 PM
The speed at which this is done is a breath of fresh air.

NewyorkSoxFan
01-29-2003, 04:59 PM
Something is going on and I can't quite figure it out. I don't know whether to be happy or nervous. Seriously this is a smart move by the organization. I hope K dub' keeps it going. I still feel like he may have one more trick up his sleeve.


NYSF

DustyIsOverated1
01-29-2003, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Something is going on and I can't quite figure it out. I don't know whether to be happy or nervous. Seriously this is a smart move by the organization. I hope K dub' keeps it going. I still feel like he may have one more trick up his sleeve.


NYSF


I feel the same way. But what other tricks are there? A pitcher should be signed soon because of spring training coming up.

By the way ya'll--I got the spring training schedule and we open with 3 games against the d-backs in a row. We have one of the two cubs/sox games on wgn the 14th of march and the following day the sox/brew crew game is on FSN. fifteen games will be on espn 1000. I can hardly wait

gogosoxgogo
01-29-2003, 08:48 PM
Koch will also be at Soxfest. Good news, he looks like a fun guy.

WinningUgly!
01-29-2003, 09:13 PM
Koch, who collected $2.35 million last season in Oakland, will earn $4.25 million in 2003 and $6.375 million in 2004.


Foulke makes $ 6 million this year & will likely get a lot more in '04 through free agency.

Good signing.

RichH55
01-29-2003, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Foulke makes $ 6 million this year & will likely get a lot more in '04 through free agency.

Good signing.

Especially because 4.25 was the low number in arbtiration anyway

gosox3072
01-29-2003, 11:38 PM
KW and riensdorf must have an insider sayin the world is comin to an end bofore this year. lol

Great job again KW!!!!!!!!!

GOSOX

34 Inch Stick
01-30-2003, 09:12 AM
How does this effect everyone's opinion of the trade now. I still think it is a fairly even trade talent wise, probably still in Oakland's favor. Equal talent for equal money was one of the things that drove me nuts about the move. With the net reduction in salary, with a younger pitcher I feel a little better.

gosox41
01-30-2003, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
How does this effect everyone's opinion of the trade now. I still think it is a fairly even trade talent wise, probably still in Oakland's favor. Equal talent for equal money was one of the things that drove me nuts about the move. With the net reduction in salary, with a younger pitcher I feel a little better.



The last thing I wanted to do was sign Kock up to a multi year contract. At least it's only 2 years. Hopefully he won't lose his fastball by then and turn into Bobby Thigpen

I am still against the trade. Foulke had much better numbers then Koch last season and for his career. Saves is a highly overrated stat. Losing Mark Johnson brough back Sandy Alomar, which also bothers me. The Sox are spending $750K on this guy to sit on the DL and skip the ball into 2B. The fact that the Sox lost Valentin who threw 97MPH kind of negates getting Koch. A lot of teams were high on Valentin as a reliever. Why not just stick him and Foulke in the bullpen and the Sox have their flamethrower for a lot less and also have another potenitally good arm.

The trade was stupid and will come back to haunt the Sox. It's another in a line of idiotic moves made by Kenny Williams.

Bob

NewyorkSoxFan
01-30-2003, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
The last thing I wanted to do was sign Kock up to a multi year contract. At least it's only 2 years. Hopefully he won't lose his fastball by then and turn into Bobby Thigpen

I am still against the trade. Foulke had much better numbers then Koch last season and for his career. Saves is a highly overrated stat. Losing Mark Johnson brough back Sandy Alomar, which also bothers me. The Sox are spending $750K on this guy to sit on the DL and skip the ball into 2B. The fact that the Sox lost Valentin who threw 97MPH kind of negates getting Koch. A lot of teams were high on Valentin as a reliever. Why not just stick him and Foulke in the bullpen and the Sox have their flamethrower for a lot less and also have another potenitally good arm.

The trade was stupid and will come back to haunt the Sox. It's another in a line of idiotic moves made by Kenny Williams.

Bob

So you would rather have an unproven talent in the bullpen trying to win the division instead of a guy who is a proven commodity. Foulke was making 6 mil dollars to be a setup guy, as we spent all year worrying about his release point or whether he should start or close.

We get Koch for less money and the only player I might add who has at least 30 or 40 saves in his first 3 yrs in the league. Bash KW all you want but at least make it a credible complaint.


NYSF

kermittheefrog
01-30-2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
So you would rather have an unproven talent in the bullpen trying to win the division instead of a guy who is a proven commodity. Foulke was making 6 mil dollars to be a setup guy, as we spent all year worrying about his release point or whether he should start or close.

We get Koch for less money and the only player I might add who has at least 30 or 40 saves in his first 3 yrs in the league. Bash KW all you want but at least make it a credible complaint.


Do you watch baseball? I think Keith Foulke got more than enough hitters out to be considered a "proven commodity." If you look at the numbers there is only one stat where Koch is better, saves. Why? Because his team put him in the game in the 9th with a three run league more often than we put Foulke in. It's obvious that getting a save doesn't prove you pitched a good game.

And Billy Koch has been on exactly as many division winners as Foulke and blown just as many division series. So don't bring one of those weak arguments up. This love of Koch some people have is either "Grass is greener on the other side syndrome" or a radar gun fetish.

ScottySoxFan
01-30-2003, 03:31 PM
Now they can move on to signing Bartolo. Hopefully.

Lip Man 1
01-30-2003, 03:43 PM
Andrew says:

This love of Koch some people have is either "Grass is greener on the other side syndrome" or a radar gun fetish .

(Amazing how the stat folks all parrott the same line isn't it? Foulke is great, Koch is garbage)

I'm not for Koch as opposed to Keith (who I think is an excellent pitcher) but the Sox weren't going to resign him after this season, not with the money he would want and not with some of the controversies that surrounded him (reports that he voiced his displeasure with not starting..) If so would you rather the Sox lose him and get nothing?

I don't care if Keith saves 60 games for the A's and Koch only gets 30 with the Sox. If the Sox win the division and get to the playoffs I'm satisfied

Lip
Lip

NewyorkSoxFan
01-30-2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Do you watch baseball? I think Keith Foulke got more than enough hitters out to be considered a "proven commodity." If you look at the numbers there is only one stat where Koch is better, saves. Why? Because his team put him in the game in the 9th with a three run league more often than we put Foulke in. It's obvious that getting a save doesn't prove you pitched a good game.

And Billy Koch has been on exactly as many division winners as Foulke and blown just as many division series. So don't bring one of those weak arguments up. This love of Koch some people have is either "Grass is greener on the other side syndrome" or a radar gun fetish.

If you read the quote from which I began my post you wouldn't be asking me such silly questions. The post I quoted talked about Valentine having a 97 mph fastball and that we should have kept him. I asked whether he felt comfortable having an unproven commodity in the bullpen as opposed to Koch.

Then I went on to discuss Foulke's release point, and his wanting to be a starter. Read then type.

NYSF

gosox41
01-30-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
So you would rather have an unproven talent in the bullpen trying to win the division instead of a guy who is a proven commodity. Foulke was making 6 mil dollars to be a setup guy, as we spent all year worrying about his release point or whether he should start or close.

We get Koch for less money and the only player I might add who has at least 30 or 40 saves in his first 3 yrs in the league. Bash KW all you want but at least make it a credible complaint.


NYSF

How is Foulke unproven? Maybe Valentin is but he could still be slowly worked in the mix. The Sox did not gain any veterans by trading Foulke. They traded a reliever for a reliever.

I have lots of credible complaints on KW and this is one of them. Are you saying Billy Koch should be in the Hall of Fame becuase of the amount of saves he had in his first 3 years in baseball? Was Bobby Thigpen one of the greatest closers in the history of baseball? He had a few 30+ saves seasons and holds the record for saves in a season.

I don't have the stats near me and they probably won't be "credible" enough for you anyways but compare Foulkes WHIP and K/BB ratios to Koch.

I kind of like pitcher's who have lower WHIP's then one's with higher. It seems that all that matters to you is the number of saves in a game where the rule for getting a save has gotten easier over time. Saves are overrated.

Bob

gosox41
01-30-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Andrew says:

This love of Koch some people have is either "Grass is greener on the other side syndrome" or a radar gun fetish .

(Amazing how the stat folks all parrott the same line isn't it? Foulke is great, Koch is garbage)

I'm not for Koch as opposed to Keith (who I think is an excellent pitcher) but the Sox weren't going to resign him after this season, not with the money he would want and not with some of the controversies that surrounded him (reports that he voiced his displeasure with not starting..) If so would you rather the Sox lose him and get nothing?

I don't care if Keith saves 60 games for the A's and Koch only gets 30 with the Sox. If the Sox win the division and get to the playoffs I'm satisfied


Even if the Sox weren't going to resign Foulke they could probably have traded him elsewhere. Why trade him for a worse pitcher? It's not like the Sox don't have other holes to fill. I could have lived with trading Keith Foulke if we would have filled a hole or gotten something as good or better in return. Stats convince me that Foulke is better then Koch.

The fact that a fastball pitching prospect was thrown in the deal makes it more aggracating. Maybe Valentin doesn't throw as hard as Koch (97 as opposed to 99-100MPH for Koch) but does that mean he couldn't statistically put up the same numbers in terms of WHIP, ERA ,etc?

Every trade has a domino effect. In the Foulke trade, the Sox lost Mark Johnson. I was never a big fan of his, but he would have been a more then adequate back up for Olivo. but becuase we lost Johnson, the Sox spent are forced to rely on Josh Paul as a 2nd catcher and he is worse then Johnson. Also, the Sox were forced to spend even more money on Sandy Alomar who is an injury waiting to happen. Now the Sox are talking about carrying 3 catchers on their roster (2 we know can't hit). One of those roster spots is possibly taking up a spot for a more productive player. Just looking at offensive ability, would you rather see Borchard or Paul/Alomar as that roster spot (forgetting the fact that Borchard would not be brought up to the majors to sit everyday)?

Bob

Lip
Lip

joecrede
01-30-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Saves are overrated.


So are those who get the saves, the "closers". That's why I believe the difference between Koch closing and Foulke closing won't be that great.

Ventura23Fan
01-30-2003, 06:57 PM
When the Koch/Foulke deal was made, the Sox also sent cash to Oakland. At the time, KW said it was a cash neutral deal. So no money was saved. Also, this contract is very similar to Keith's last contract. I would not get too attached to Koch. He may be in yet another uniform a year from now when he becomes too expensive.

Paulwny
01-30-2003, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
(Amazing how the stat folks all parrott the same line isn't it? Foulke is great, Koch is garbage)
Lip
Lip

I'm not a stats guy and quite often disagree with Kermit but, I agree with him about Koch.

If Koch can't get the >95 mph fast ball over the plate the walks will begin. He'll then lower his velocity to 90-95 mph and become quite hittable since there is very little movement on his fast ball.
This has been his history in Toronto.

joecrede
01-30-2003, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by Ventura23Fan
Also, this contract is very similar to Keith's last contract. I would not get too attached to Koch. He may be in yet another uniform a year from now when he becomes too expensive.

. . . And that's fine. The extra years we will control Koch is the main reason this deal was made IMO. Hopefully, he has a great year and there's a market for proven closers then we deal him to fill other holes and let Marte close in '04.

Daver
01-30-2003, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
. . . And that's fine. The extra years we will control Koch is the main reason this deal was made IMO. Hopefully, he has a great year and there's a market for proven closers then we deal him to fill other holes and let Marte close in '04.

I don't know that Marte would get that job should Koch get traded.

Bmr31
01-30-2003, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by daver
I don't know that Marte would get that job should Koch get traded.

How come? You dont believe he can close?

Daver
01-30-2003, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
How come? You dont believe he can close?

I think they would give it to Edwin Almonte or Royce Ring,depending on the season he has this year.

Don Cooper would like to see Marte given a chance as a starter.

Bmr31
01-30-2003, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by daver
I think they would give it to Edwin Almonte or Royce Ring,depending on the season he has this year.

Don Cooper would like to see Marte given a chance as a starter.

Oh really? Works for me. I guess if the sox wanted Marte to close, they would have traded Foulke for someone else.

gogosoxgogo
01-30-2003, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by daver
I think they would give it to Edwin Almonte or Royce Ring,depending on the season he has this year.

Don Cooper would like to see Marte given a chance as a starter.

Marte a starter? That might be interesting. Is he going to get a chance during ST maybe?

Daver
01-30-2003, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
Marte a starter? That might be interesting. Is he going to get a chance during ST maybe?

No not this year,it is a plan for the future.

gogosoxgogo
01-30-2003, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by daver
No not this year,it is a plan for the future.

Thanks for the info. Let's just say that I'm glad Coop is going to be the one to convert him into a starter (if it happens at all) rather than Nardi.

voodoochile
01-30-2003, 11:17 PM
Have to agree with Daver. I think the reason they signed Koch to a two year deal is so they can trade him before the trading deadline in 2004 or in the off season before 2005. By then they should have another closer ready in the minors or they can deal Koch for another veteran if necessary.

Like the idea of Marte starting. He's got some nasty stuff...

gogosoxgogo
01-30-2003, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Have to agree with Daver. I think the reason they signed Koch to a two year deal is so they can trade him before the trading deadline in 2004 or in the off season before 2005. By then they should have another closer ready in the minors or they can deal Koch for another veteran if necessary.

Like the idea of Marte starting. He's got some nasty stuff...

Koch and Buehrle for Zito :)