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View Full Version : Opinion: "Chisox Could Be Closest Thing to LOck in MLB"


joecrede
01-28-2003, 04:17 PM
From Mike's Baseball Rants on the Daubach acquisition: (Article (http://mikesbballrants.blogspot.com/))

"This is a guy that could be a useful part of a contender or a useful starter on a pretender. Now, he will have to be a bench player on a team that now has three first basemen better than the starter on its main competitor, the Twins. Though I hate to endorse any Jerry Reisdorf team, the ChiSox could be the closest thing to a lock in MLB. I fully expect the world to be shocked if or when they win their division."

Three first basemen better than the Twins starter. The Twins fall behind further and further every day.

LuvSox
01-28-2003, 05:12 PM
Bud Selig may be the only man in the world that likes Reinsdorf.

jeremyb1
01-28-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
From Mike's Baseball Rants on the Daubach acquisition: (Article (http://mikesbballrants.blogspot.com/))

"This is a guy that could be a useful part of a contender or a useful starter on a pretender. Now, he will have to be a bench player on a team that now has three first basemen better than the starter on its main competitor, the Twins. Though I hate to endorse any Jerry Reisdorf team, the ChiSox could be the closest thing to a lock in MLB. I fully expect the world to be shocked if or when they win their division."

Three first basemen better than the Twins starter. The Twins fall behind further and further every day.

i'm glad someone feels that way. we've gotten very little respect from the press. tsn had power rankings from after we acquired colon and we're still 15 i believe. we're behind the mets and maybe the dodgers also. before we acquired colon everyone was talking about the twins "cruising" to an al central title which is preposterus in my mind after we finished with the same pathagorean record as they had last season.

hose
01-28-2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
From Mike's Baseball Rants on the Daubach acquisition: (Article (http://mikesbballrants.blogspot.com/))

"This is a guy that could be a useful part of a contender or a useful starter on a pretender. Now, he will have to be a bench player on a team that now has three first basemen better than the starter on its main competitor, the Twins. Though I hate to endorse any Jerry Reisdorf team, the ChiSox could be the closest thing to a lock in MLB. I fully expect the world to be shocked if or when they win their division."

Three first basemen better than the Twins starter. The Twins fall behind further and further every day.


Daubach is the lefthanded bat the Sox needed .

I wonder why he came so cheap,
I can see why the Players Union is already making rumblings about collusion.

FarmerAndy
01-28-2003, 05:40 PM
I think it should at least specify that the Sox have 3 BETTER HITTING first basemen. Don't get me wrong, the Sox are in a much better position than the Twins. First base is a position that you need big offense from, and the Twins don't have that. But to simply say that the Sox have 3 better first basemen seems to imply that they have three guys who play first base better, which is false. To be fair, Doug Mientkiewicz plays the position a whole lot better than PK, Frank, or Daubauch.

As I said, the Sox are in a way better position with first basemen. But, in fairness, I think it's important to give a little credit where it is due.

MattSharp
01-28-2003, 06:03 PM
Daubech is essentially an upgrade replacement over Jeff Liefer IMO. I am very happy with this decision.

ma-gaga
01-28-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Three first basemen better than the Twins starter.

You can only play one... :)

FarmerAndy
01-28-2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by MattSharp
Daubech is essentially an upgrade replacement over Jeff Liefer IMO. I am very happy with this decision.

I agree 100%

Just out of curiosity, is your name really Matt Sharp? Or is a tribute to the great former Weezer bass player?

hold2dibber
01-28-2003, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
From Mike's Baseball Rants on the Daubach acquisition: (Article (http://mikesbballrants.blogspot.com/))

"This is a guy that could be a useful part of a contender or a useful starter on a pretender. Now, he will have to be a bench player on a team that now has three first basemen better than the starter on its main competitor, the Twins. Though I hate to endorse any Jerry Reisdorf team, the ChiSox could be the closest thing to a lock in MLB. I fully expect the world to be shocked if or when they win their division."

Three first basemen better than the Twins starter. The Twins fall behind further and further every day.

I like the Daubach pick up quite a bit, bu I think "Mike" may be overstating it a little bit. If the Sox picked up Randy Johnson or Pedro Martinez might have made the Sox "the closest thing to a lock in MLB." However, as Ma-Gaga rightfully points out, the Sox can only play one first baseman; Daubach will get what, maybe 200, 250 ABs (barring injury)? I hardly think that turns the Sox to possible AL Central contenders to a virtual lock. The Sox still have quite a few significant question marks going into S.T.

delben91
01-28-2003, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
You can only play one... :)

Man, it's always the details like that that come back to bite us... :cool:

Daver
01-28-2003, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by hose
Daubach is the lefthanded bat the Sox needed .

I wonder why he came so cheap,
I can see why the Players Union is already making rumblings about collusion.

He came cheap because of the new CBA,teams will now make up for what they are paying in high end salaries by not paying the low end salaries of guys like Daubach,in order to keep the overall payroll as low as possible.In years past Daubach would have made 2 mil or so to be a bench player,but with the Luxury tax that is a luxury teams will not spend on,when they can bring up a guy from the farm system and hope he works out,for a quarter of the money.

Most people who follow baseball labor issues saw this coming as soon as the players agreed to a salary restraint in the new CBA,the stars would not be affected by it,but the role players that fill out the roster,guys like Tony G.,would get shafted over this move.

As for any cries of collusion,let the MLBPA try and prove it in a court of law,they better pack a lunch.

It does though,guarantee us fans another baseball labor war in 2006. WOOOOOHOOOOOOO!

jeremyb1
01-28-2003, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I like the Daubach pick up quite a bit, bu I think "Mike" may be overstating it a little bit. If the Sox picked up Randy Johnson or Pedro Martinez might have made the Sox "the closest thing to a lock in MLB." However, as Ma-Gaga rightfully points out, the Sox can only play one first baseman; Daubach will get what, maybe 200, 250 ABs (barring injury)? I hardly think that turns the Sox to possible AL Central contenders to a virtual lock. The Sox still have quite a few significant question marks going into S.T.

i didn't interpret the quote as saying we were going to win the division just because we picked up daubach. i think he was just using it as an example to show how he thinks we're moving in the right direction and are better than the twins.

Lip Man 1
01-28-2003, 07:15 PM
"the ChiSox could be the closest thing to a lock in MLB."

ah yes, I remember hearing that in 1973, 1978, 1984, 1995 and 2001. We NEVER learn do we?

Forget the predictions, just shut up, play and win!

As far as where the Sox are "ranked." The starting pitching still has question marks, cenfer field is a black hole and catching is another one. Those are serious handicaps. Until they are answered in a positive manner (i.e. when the season starts) I can easily understand why the Sox are ranked 15th.

Like the fans, the media has heard all this talk before about the Sox being "locks." The Sox will have an opportunity to start changing people's minds beginning on March 31st. Till then don't lose any sleep over where the Sox are "ranked."

Lip

hose
01-28-2003, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by daver
He came cheap because of the new CBA,teams will now make up for what they are paying in high end salaries by not paying the low end salaries of guys like Daubach,in order to keep the overall payroll as low as possible.In years past Daubach would have made 2 mil or so to be a bench player,but with the Luxury tax that is a luxury teams will not spend on,when they can bring up a guy from the farm system and hope he works out,for a quarter of the money.

Most people who follow baseball labor issues saw this coming as soon as the players agreed to a salary restraint in the new CBA,the stars would not be affected by it,but the role players that fill out the roster,guys like Tony G.,would get shafted over this move.

As for any cries of collusion,let the MLBPA try and prove it in a court of law,they better pack a lunch.

It does though,guarantee us fans another baseball labor war in 2006. WOOOOOHOOOOOOO!


Good post.
Like Veeck use to say , he didn't mind paying the superstar big money just not the role players.

Still I'm a bit surprised that Daubach didn't get much attention.
Lefthanded bat with 20 homers for last 4 years at a reduced price and he lasted till now?

hey , whatever, it's the White Sox gain

jeremyb1
01-28-2003, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
"the ChiSox could be the closest thing to a lock in MLB."

ah yes, I remember hearing that in 1973, 1978, 1984, 1995 and 2001. We NEVER learn do we?

Forget the predictions, just shut up, play and win!

As far as where the Sox are "ranked." The starting pitching still has question marks, cenfer field is a black hole and catching is another one. Those are serious handicaps. Until they are answered in a positive manner (i.e. when the season starts) I can easily understand why the Sox are ranked 15th.

Like the fans, the media has heard all this talk before about the Sox being "locks." The Sox will have an opportunity to start changing people's minds beginning on March 31st. Till then don't lose any sleep over where the Sox are "ranked."

the media is the one calling a team "a lock" the majority of the time. i hate this idea that our prospects or the future success of the major league team is determined by what people in our organization say to the media. since when do organizations ever say "we have a weak farm system" or "we don't expect to compete this season". half the media picked us to win the division last season because they independently thought we had the ability to do so and we certainly had a shot to win the division.

i feel like this has been done a million times already but as for center field and catcher, i think we can survive without well above average pitchers at those positions because we are not playing the al or nl all-star team. no team in baseball has excellent players 1-9. we could put virtually anyone at catcher or centerfield and it won't do anything to change the fact that we're easily one of the best offensive teams in the games due to the fact that we have well above average hitters at all 7 other spots in the lineup.

if you look around the league there are not many good hitting catchers. olivo is a good defensive catcher. at the absolute worst he'll be an average defensive catcher compared to the rest of the starting catchers in baseball. offensively, he'd have to be pretty terrible to be below average. 6 of the 12 catchers that had over 300 at bats in the al last season hit less than .250. only 3 of those 12 catchers slugged over .400. outside of posada and pierzynski there aren't any good hitting catchers in the al now that irod has left. if our catching situation will keep us from winning, it's going to be a problem for most other teams in the al too.

as for center field, there were only 4 centerfielders in the al with ops above .800 last season. rowand's ops was .750 in the second half with regular playing season. if he could simply do that over a full season, he would've outhit milton bradley, singleton, terrance long, and erstad while coming pretty close to vernon wells' production. people love to critisize rowand's defense in these parts. stats such as range factor and fielding percentage can be deceiving so i can't really prove otherwise in a neutral fashion. all i have is my personal observations. i haven't seen rowand misplay balls in center often, he seems to take outstanding routes to the ball, he plays very hard, and he has a very strong arm. is he going to be an above average player in center? probably not but black hole is a complete exagerration.

Lip Man 1
01-28-2003, 10:33 PM
Jeremy says:

the media is the one calling a team "a lock"

Please educate me where you have seen the mainstream Chicago media says this? (i.e. "a lock.")

Lip

Daver
01-28-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Jeremy says:

the media is the one calling a team "a lock"

Please educate me where you have seen the mainstream Chicago media says this? (i.e. "a lock.")

Lip

Lip,I give you credit for wading through that mass of lower case letters to see if it contains any content.Being a Sox fan is penence enough for me.

joecrede
01-28-2003, 11:25 PM
The Sox gave 957 AB's to Clayton, Johnson and Lofton and gave the worst starting pitcher in baseball 23 starts AND they still finished .500. That's how good they are.

Bobby Thigpen
01-29-2003, 09:48 AM
Just a question, is it possible the Sox may look at Daubach to fill more than just first base? Could we possibly see him in left or third base? Maybe they see him as a full replacement for Liefer (if so he is certainly an upgrade), and not just a third string first baseman or pinch hitter. I don't remember enough about him to know if he can play these other positions. Even if he can't it's a great pickup. Remember we can always trade him and someone else later.

RichH55
01-29-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
I think it should at least specify that the Sox have 3 BETTER HITTING first basemen. Don't get me wrong, the Sox are in a much better position than the Twins. First base is a position that you need big offense from, and the Twins don't have that. But to simply say that the Sox have 3 better first basemen seems to imply that they have three guys who play first base better, which is false. To be fair, Doug Mientkiewicz plays the position a whole lot better than PK, Frank, or Daubauch.

As I said, the Sox are in a way better position with first basemen. But, in fairness, I think it's important to give a little credit where it is due.

Alright, its semantics time! If you have to say that they are better hitting to me hitting, than wouldnt you have to say fielding to mean fielding? Thus saying First Baseman means the position as a whole, both fielding and hitting, and whatever else you want them to do:) You can argue that maybe on the whole Doug has a better overall game than maybe Daubach(certainly you wouldnt bring PK into that debate), but I really don't see where you thought the writer was meaning they were better at Fielding.

MattSharp
01-29-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
I agree 100%

Just out of curiosity, is your name really Matt Sharp? Or is a tribute to the great former Weezer bass player?

Most definately a tribute to my all-time favorite bands original bassist.

jeremyb1
01-29-2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Jeremy says:

the media is the one calling a team "a lock"

Please educate me where you have seen the mainstream Chicago media says this? (i.e. "a lock.")

i was speaking about what the media says in general. your post is the one talking about titles you think have been and are currently unfairly being placed on the sox. my point is that the general opinion about the sox chances in '03 will be largely determined by the media as it was in '01 and '02. i don't think sox players' comments have a very large effect on the publics' opinion about the team's success.

if todd ritchie comes out tommorow and says the brewers will win the nl central does that put a great deal of pressure on the brewers to do so? no. because only one player says so. if every publication picks the brewers to finish last the public certainly isn't going to expect the brewers to win first place just because ritchie said they would and therefore there's little additional pressure placed on ritchie. he simply believes in his team (simply to too large of an extent) as every player should. if the sox look to most to be an 80 club this season the fact that koch and a few others may think the sox will win the division is nearly meaningless.

hold2dibber
01-29-2003, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Just a question, is it possible the Sox may look at Daubach to fill more than just first base? Could we possibly see him in left or third base? Maybe they see him as a full replacement for Liefer (if so he is certainly an upgrade), and not just a third string first baseman or pinch hitter. I don't remember enough about him to know if he can play these other positions. Even if he can't it's a great pickup. Remember we can always trade him and someone else later.

Daubach can play the corner outfield positions in addition to 1B (to my knowledge, he's not a 3B, but I don't think Liefer played any 3B last year either). Liefer had 204 ABs last year. My guess is that Daubach will get more than that, but not much more - maybe 250 or 275. Of course, if someone gets hurt or traded (anybody think the Pirates would deal Giles for PK, Rowand and a prospect?), he'll get more.

rmusacch
01-29-2003, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Daubach can play the corner outfield positions in addition to 1B (to my knowledge, he's not a 3B, but I don't think Liefer played any 3B last year either). Liefer had 204 ABs last year. My guess is that Daubach will get more than that, but not much more - maybe 250 or 275. Of course, if someone gets hurt or traded (anybody think the Pirates would deal Giles for PK, Rowand and a prospect?), he'll get more.

Daubach played at 1b, RF and LF last year. He has played those positions his entire career except for two games at third. I am surprised we got him and that Boston let him go.

maurice
01-29-2003, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Liefer had 204 ABs last year. My guess is that Daubach will get more than that, but not much more - maybe 250 or 275.

I see Daubach getting a lot of work as well, but at whose expense? Certainly not Maggs. That leaves CLee, Konerko, and Hurt. Looks like we'll have a heck of a bench for interleague games.

anybody think the Pirates would deal Giles for PK, Rowand and a prospect?

IIRC, KW has been trying to get Giles for years, but he doesn't want to play here and has at least a partial no-trade clause to that effect.

jeremyb1
01-29-2003, 06:27 PM
the more i look at it, it just looks like daubach is a better version of rios. rios is probably a slightly better outfielder but neither can play center. both are lefthanded but daubach has more pop. you can't blame kw for signing rios because he had no way of knowing daubach would be available so cheap but now what do we do with rios? he has a major league deal.

hold2dibber
01-29-2003, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
the more i look at it, it just looks like daubach is a better version of rios. rios is probably a slightly better outfielder but neither can play center. both are lefthanded but daubach has more pop. you can't blame kw for signing rios because he had no way of knowing daubach would be available so cheap but now what do we do with rios? he has a major league deal.

I agree. Going into last year the Sox had two reserve outfielders, one of whom could also play 1B (Rowand and Liefer). The same holds true for Rios and Daubach. The big difference is that Rowand could play center and I don't think Rios or Daubach can (I could be wrong - I know very little about Rios). So the problem is, if they carry these two both it seems to me like there's no room for Harris on the roster, but without Harris on the roster, Maggs is our back-up CF and that seems to be a problem to me. :?:

jeremyb1
01-29-2003, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I agree. Going into last year the Sox had two reserve outfielders, one of whom could also play 1B (Rowand and Liefer). The same holds true for Rios and Daubach. The big difference is that Rowand could play center and I don't think Rios or Daubach can (I could be wrong - I know very little about Rios). So the problem is, if they carry these two both it seems to me like there's no room for Harris on the roster, but without Harris on the roster, Maggs is our back-up CF and that seems to be a problem to me. :?:

definately. i suppose maggs could fill in at cf in case of an injury but that'd still leave rowand to play 162 games and that's hard on any player, especially one who throws his body around as much as rowand. seeing as how harris adds speed to the roster and plays second and center, he's much more versatile than rios and seems like a better fit. however, i don't see how we can not take rios north after paying him 500,000. it'll be interesting to see how this works out.

hose
01-29-2003, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by daver
He came cheap because of the new CBA,teams will now make up for what they are paying in high end salaries by not paying the low end salaries of guys like Daubach,in order to keep the overall payroll as low as possible.In years past Daubach would have made 2 mil or so to be a bench player,but with the Luxury tax that is a luxury teams will not spend on,when they can bring up a guy from the farm system and hope he works out,for a quarter of the money.

Most people who follow baseball labor issues saw this coming as soon as the players agreed to a salary restraint in the new CBA,the stars would not be affected by it,but the role players that fill out the roster,guys like Tony G.,would get shafted over this move.

As for any cries of collusion,let the MLBPA try and prove it in a court of law,they better pack a lunch.

It does though,guarantee us fans another baseball labor war in 2006. WOOOOOHOOOOOOO!


In todays Daily Southtown a short article on baseball players having taken the first step toward a possible grievence against owners, requesting documents about negotiations with free agents this past offseason.

I smelled that coming.

Daver
01-29-2003, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by hose
In todays Daily Southtown a short article on baseball players having taken the first step toward a possible grievence against owners, requesting documents about negotiations with free agents this past offseason.

I smelled that coming.

I just posted a link to an article from CNN about it in another thread. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16888)

OfficerKarkovice
01-29-2003, 07:38 PM
As far as the backup centerfielder goes...I think Valentin would be a much more likely temporary solution than Maggs.

WinningUgly!
01-29-2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Daubach can play the corner outfield positions in addition to 1B (to my knowledge, he's not a 3B, but I don't think Liefer played any 3B last year either). Liefer had 204 ABs last year. My guess is that Daubach will get more than that, but not much more - maybe 250 or 275. Of course, if someone gets hurt or traded (anybody think the Pirates would deal Giles for PK, Rowand and a prospect?), he'll get more.

You're right, Liefer didn't get any time at 3b last season...15 games in '01...that's it for his career as a 3rd baseman.

baggio202
01-30-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice
As far as the backup centerfielder goes...I think Valentin would be a much more likely temporary solution than Maggs. :jerry
oh the possibilities are endless..tinker ,tinker ,tinker