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Gargamelle
01-24-2003, 09:21 AM
This is a strange question, but it has me stumped. Iím writing a newsletter for my fantasy league and I want to make sure I have this right. Iíve done a few Internet searches, but I canít seem to find the answer, so I thought Iíd turn to you guys.

What is the correct possessive form of White Sox?

Is it White Soxís or White Soxí ?

Iíve seen both written in print. Which is correct?

Another question:

For teams with names ending in Ďsí, when does one need to add the apostrophe to make it possessive?

Cubsí pitcher Mark Prior -
or Cubs pitcher Mark Prior

Iím confused, because again, Iíve seen it both ways in print (as in reputable web sites and newspapers)

Any help would be MUCH appreciated!

cheeses_h_rice
01-24-2003, 10:16 AM
I think White Sox's is correct.

As for the Cubs thing, it could go either way. "Cubs pitcher Mark Prior" is as correct as "Sox pitcher Mark Buehrle." You're DESCRIBING what kind of pitcher he is, not describing him as "belonging" to their team. However, if you were to say something like, "the Cubs' right-handed Jesus, Mark Prior," you would add a possessive apostrophe, just as you would with "the Sox's left-handed stud, Mark Buehrle."

HTH.

Cheryl
01-24-2003, 10:36 AM
I'd say White Sox'. Because the name of the team is/was the Chicago White Stockings. So you're putting the apostrophe at the end of a word that actually ends with an s.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-24-2003, 11:24 AM
Being married to Mrs. PHG, a licenced secondary ed. English teacher, I think I can speak with authority on this matter. There is no absolute rule regarding the possessive "s" in this situation. It depends on the word and the context, but also the discretion of the writer.

The preferred method for determining how to apply the "s" is to only add an additional "s" when the result is not awkward sounding. This, of course, is subjective and is simply left to the discretion of the writer.

To my ear, "White Sox's" is awkward and I never use it. I'm not right; that's just me. Standard usage for sports teams usually avoids the possessive form completely, preferring to use the entire phrase as a single noun. For example, the Tribune refers to "the White Sox offense" rather than "the White Sox' offense."

Where is Phil Rogers when you need him? :smile:

:chimp
"So if I'm hearing you right PHG, my repeated use of the term 'White Sock offense' makes me a complete moron?"

:fans
"YEP!!!!"

hold2dibber
01-24-2003, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

:chimp
"So if I'm hearing you right PHG, my repeated use of the term 'White Sock offense' makes me a complete moron?"


That's only one of so very many things that makes you a moron, chimp boy.

voodoochile
01-24-2003, 12:17 PM
What's the official rule regarding adding possesive endings to human names that end in S? I would think it would be the same for team names.

How do you modify the name Jones for possesion?

The Jones's front yard?

The Joneses front yard?

The Jones' front yard?

The Joneses' front yard?

Which ever is correct in that situation is correct for the Sox also. However, I don't know the proper answer and getnerally, I just stick and apostrophe at the end of a name ending with an 'S' sound and call it a day (like the third one above).

One thing we can definitely all agree on is that Chimp is a moron and wouldn't have a job if not for dear old Granddad...

soxruleEP
01-24-2003, 12:31 PM
At the risk of blowing my cover, I am a college professor in English and have taught the specific mechanics of English for many years (this is actually a mechanics question, not a grammar question, but that's putting too fine a point on it).

The formation of possessives is very simple and is governed by a few basic rules:

All possessives are formed by the addition fo apostrophe-s as in

Daver's Car. [Note: There is only one Daver and he owns a car.]

If a plural word end in s or x, we merely add an apsotrophe: Dogs' bones or Sox' bats.

As to the issue of Sox offense or Sox' offense:

In this case I would consider Sox as a simple adjective not requiring the possesive.

I never thought I owuld engage in such discussion on the WSI site but I will now withdraw and hide my credentials again.

maurice
01-24-2003, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
What's the official rule

George is correct that there's no "official rule." The authoritative sources disagree. For example, the Chicago Manual of Style says that you simply should add 's to all singular names except ancient names (thus, both White Sox's and Jesus' would be correct). This formulation is widely criticized, since it sometimes produces awkward sounding words. In the case of team names, the issue is further muddled by the different American and English standards re. whether a team name is singular (one team) or plural (many players).

soxnut
01-24-2003, 02:52 PM
Speaking of White Sox.............does anyone know why our team doesn't even WEAR them? :?: :(: :?: :(: :whiner:

whitesoxwilkes
01-24-2003, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
What's the official rule regarding adding possesive endings to human names that end in S? I would think it would be the same for team names.

How do you modify the name Jones for possesion?

The Jones's front yard?

The Joneses front yard?

The Jones' front yard?

The Joneses' front yard?

Which ever is correct in that situation is correct for the Sox also. However, I don't know the proper answer and getnerally, I just stick and apostrophe at the end of a name ending with an 'S' sound and call it a day (like the third one above).

One thing we can definitely all agree on is that Chimp is a moron and wouldn't have a job if not for dear old Granddad...

My last name ends in S (Wilkins) and I don;t even know the answer to that...

SoxRulecubsdrool
01-24-2003, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
There is no absolute rule regarding the possessive "s" in this situation. It depends on the word and the context, but also the discretion of the writer.

The preferred method for determining how to apply the "s" is to only add an additional "s" when the result is not awkward sounding. This, of course, is subjective and is simply left to the discretion of the writer.



:b&b


Huh?

PaleHoseGeorge
01-24-2003, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by whitesoxwilkes
My last name ends in S (Wilkins) and I don;t even know the answer to that...

Wilkins' or Wilkens's. Either is acceptable. As the writer, you may choose which one based on the awkward sound of the finished version.

hempsox
01-25-2003, 12:26 AM
I always choose to write it the way that makes it sound most interesting (i.e. the hardest for the reader to read or most likely to leave them scratching their head).

In response to this entire post...
20 MORE DAYS UNTIL PITCHERS AND CATCHERS REPORT!

Capt. C must be making all these offseason moves because he saw posts like this coming.

MarqSox
01-26-2003, 11:09 PM
From "The Associated Press Stylebook and Briefing on Media Law":

Plural nouns not ending in S: Add 's (the alumni's contributions, women's rights, etc.)

Singular proper names ending in S: Use only an apostrophe (Achilles' hell, Agnes' book, Ceres' rites, etc.)

Collective nouns: Nouns that denote a unit take singular verbs and pronouns; however, team names such as the Jazz, the Magic, the Avalanche, take plural nouns

Soxboyrob
01-26-2003, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by Cheryl
I'd say White Sox'. Because the name of the team is/was the Chicago White Stockings. So you're putting the apostrophe at the end of a word that actually ends with an s.

The Sox were never the White Stockings. The Cubs used to be the White Stockings.

MarqSox
01-27-2003, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
The Sox were never the White Stockings. The Cubs used to be the White Stockings.

Actually, the Sox stole the Cubs' old name. They only became the Sox after the Chicago Tribune started calling them "Sox" in headlines because it was shorter than "Stockings." They didn't officially drop "Stockings" until around 1909ish.