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Viva Magglio
01-16-2003, 08:05 AM
...the White Sox might sign Pudge. And I am not talking about No. 72.

From the Daily Herald's Barry Rozner: "White Sox should now go get Pudge" (http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/col_rozner.asp)

It should be noted that Rozner was one of the first to scoop the Sox' interest with Bartólo Colón and Javier Vazquéz.

mike squires
01-16-2003, 08:50 AM
I would like it. You could put Olivo and Paul in AAA and platoon Pudge and Sandy, although that would defeat the whole purpose of signing Alamor to begin with. (to teach Olivo) Pudge could help this club and we would have more pop at the end of the lineup. Thomas, Konerko, Maggs, Lee, Pudge, Valintine. That's quite a lineup. The second coming of the Southside Hitmen.

NewyorkSoxFan
01-16-2003, 08:52 AM
That would be the "icing" on the cake. I was wondering late last nite after calming down what else could they do to improve this team based on who is left out their.

What the Sox have going for them is that they are now considered a serious contender, and only one or two players away from challenging for a pennant. Pudge has always wanted to be on a winner, and that may supercede his quest for money. It would give him a chance to prove in a major market that he is completely healthy, and cash in at some later date.

What better tutor could their be for Olivio to watch one of the best backstops to ever play, and learn from him.

My question is what is the sox payroll now with the addition of Colon? It is becoming Obvious that JR is allowing KW to capitalize on the team hosting the All-star game by loosening the purse strings. Maybe he is sanctioning something along the lines of 60-65 Mill.


NYSF

Iguana775
01-16-2003, 08:56 AM
what the hell is going on here??!! was the management replaced without our knowledge?

cornball
01-16-2003, 08:57 AM
I don't believe it would happen, but i would love to see it!

From a leadership standpoint. I know IRod has been bashed for his calling of a game but i think that is overrated. Look at the Ranger staff over the years.

They should have signed Alomar as a coach, not as a player.

mike squires
01-16-2003, 09:01 AM
As far as payroll goes NewyorkCity, KW said on the radio yesterday that the Sox payroll is actually smaller than it was last year. I'd like to know how many season tix were sold yesterday.

cornball
01-16-2003, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
That would be the "icing" on the cake. I was wondering late last nite after calming down what else could they do to improve this team based on who is left out their.

What the Sox have going for them is that they are now considered a serious contender, and only one or two players away from challenging for a pennant. Pudge has always wanted to be on a winner, and that may supercede his quest for money. It would give him a chance to prove in a major market that he is completely healthy, and cash in at some later date.

What better tutor could their be for Olivio to watch one of the best backstops to ever play, and learn from him.

My question is what is the sox payroll now with the addition of Colon? It is becoming Obvious that JR is allowing KW to capitalize on the team hosting the All-star game by loosening the purse strings. Maybe he is sanctioning something along the lines of 60-65 Mill.

Remeber the fact that although Colon is 8MM coming, over 2MM left with Osuna, Biddle and Liefer leaving....not that big of an increase. Still below last year.

So I think we should have additional room to add the final pieces.
NYSF

NewyorkSoxFan
01-16-2003, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by mike squires
As far as payroll goes NewyorkCity, KW said on the radio yesterday that the Sox payroll is actually smaller than it was last year. I'd like to know how many season tix were sold yesterday.

That's what I thought MS, so they could sign someone if they want to. The market has benefitted the Sox, because these guys who ordinarily would be getting outrageous contracts now can't find work, because they don't want to take a pay cut.

Pudge was on the radio here saying that his phone isn't even ringing, and he can't understand it. So what would you do, go the East with the Orioles (going nowhere fast) or come to a major market in a weak division and cash in on incentives?

NYSF

Brian26
01-16-2003, 09:08 AM
I can honestly say, if this team goes out and signs I-Rod, I will seriously consider buying a season package.

What an amazing couple of days to be a Sox fan.

jortafan
01-16-2003, 09:23 AM
If Ivan were to become a White Sox player, would we be able to slap him silly and tell him he needs a new nickname? I refuse to consider him a "pudge." We already had one, and he needs to have his own identity.

Hangar18
01-16-2003, 09:24 AM
I would have to say, that This White SOX team
would have the best chance in Decades...
of getting to the World Series. Alomar will retire
soon, and the idea of OLIVO backing Up Pudge for
only a couple of seasons.....Is Genius.
they both speak SPANISH, which is the main reason
to sign Irod (along with not letting him "fall" to the cubs and
re-steal all the media attention Now, and All Season Long)
and damn,,,,,i Cant type straight here...
PUDGE WOULD BE GOOD FOR OLIVO. BANK ON THAT.
Dan Wright being in the same clubhouse as Maddux
would make him 15x better. Why do you think the Braves
have been good for so long.
KENNY: one more Piece here....PUDGE IS AVAILABLE...
SIGN HIM FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS.....ENOUGH TIME
TO MENTOR OLIVO INTO A TRUE ALL-STAR.
KW signs PUDGE, and kenny will have resurrected his
career as a GM, because he would end up becoming
the 1st Black GM to take a team to World Series.
(is that right?) MAN....Kenny, are you listening?
baseball sometimes really is that easy.....SIGN PUDGE...
shore up the Bench a little....= World Series...
I cant believe were THISCLOSE

jortafan
01-16-2003, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
KW signs PUDGE, and kenny will have resurrected his
career as a GM, because he would end up becoming
the 1st Black GM to take a team to World Series.
(is that right?)

I believe Bob Watson was still Yankee GM when they began their string of World Series titles and appearances in 1996.

hold2dibber
01-16-2003, 09:42 AM
Rodriquez obviously would be a great addition to the line-up, but the fact is, he plays two positions (DH and C) where the Sox don't have a huge need. If you sign him to a 3-year deal, what happens when Olivo is ready to start 135 games next year and Frank exercises his option to stay? I personally don't think it would be a bad thing for Olivo to play in Charlotte in '03, but beyond that, I think signing Rodriquez would create some potential log jams. Now, if they could deal Olivo for another stud starter (maybe in combination with a top prospect), or they could sign Rodriquez to a one year deal (maybe with an $8 million base, with incentives that could net him another $4-6 million), that would be perfect. But lets not let the euphoria of yesterday make us nuts - JR would never authorize an expenditure like that.

VeeckAsInWreck
01-16-2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Rodriquez obviously would be a great addition to the line-up, but the fact is, he plays two positions (DH and C) where the Sox don't have a huge need.

What you talkin' bout Willis! We do have several DH's but we sure as hell could use the best catcher in baseball. Olivo will benefit from learning from I-Rod. As far as Sandy.........well, tell him to take his paycheck and just to close the door behind him. I agree with the fact that Sandy should have signed as a coach instead of a player. Hell I would have preferred it if Kenny would have brought back Ron Karkovice.
If the Sox sign I-Rod you can bet that the ticket sales will go up.

rmusacch
01-16-2003, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by mike squires
I would like it. You could put Olivo and Paul in AAA and platoon Pudge and Sandy, although that would defeat the whole purpose of signing Alamor to begin with. (to teach Olivo) Pudge could help this club and we would have more pop at the end of the lineup. Thomas, Konerko, Maggs, Lee, Pudge, Valintine. That's quite a lineup. The second coming of the Southside Hitmen.

Please don't call him Pudge. There is only one Pudge. If they sign him, it would not be a platoon situation with Alomar. Rodriguez would be the starter and Alomar would be the backup. If they were to sign him, look for Paul to be moved. He is 27, putting him in a platoon situation with Olivo in Charlotte will do him no good.

rmusacch
01-16-2003, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by VeeckAsInWreck
What you talkin' bout Willis! We do have several DH's but we sure as hell could use the best catcher in baseball. Olivo will benefit from learning from I-Rod. As far as Sandy.........well, tell him to take his paycheck and just to close the door behind him. I agree with the fact that Sandy should have signed as a coach instead of a player. Hell I would have preferred it if Kenny would have brought back Ron Karkovice.
If the Sox sign I-Rod you can bet that the ticket sales will go up.

They have been talking for the last few years in Texas about moving Rodriguez to 2b. I just do not see him catching for much longer. I think he is 31, but has been up with the Rangers since he was 19. I would not mind having him if he was completely healthy and could catch for the next five years.

hold2dibber
01-16-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by VeeckAsInWreck
What you talkin' bout Willis! We do have several DH's but we sure as hell could use the best catcher in baseball. Olivo will benefit from learning from I-Rod. As far as Sandy.........well, tell him to take his paycheck and just to close the door behind him. I agree with the fact that Sandy should have signed as a coach instead of a player. Hell I would have preferred it if Kenny would have brought back Ron Karkovice.
If the Sox sign I-Rod you can bet that the ticket sales will go up.

Olivo will learn what from I-Rod? How to call for all fastballs with a guy on first in order to preserve your precious thrown out stealing stats? And although he is a damn good hitter, he has proven the last few years that his body no longer can take the wear and tear of being an everyday catcher. He should catch no more than 120 games per season. Which means he would need to DH the other 40 or so games. We already have a damn good DH who, if he's on, is a better hitter than I-Rod.

NewyorkSoxFan
01-16-2003, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Olivo will learn what from I-Rod? How to call for all fastballs with a guy on first in order to preserve your precious thrown out stealing stats? And although he is a damn good hitter, he has proven the last few years that his body no longer can take the wear and tear of being an everyday catcher. He should catch no more than 120 games per season. Which means he would need to DH the other 40 or so games. We already have a damn good DH who, if he's on, is a better hitter than I-Rod.


Dibber I think you seriously underestimate his talent level. This guy has been catching everyday in Texas heat, and yes that will break you down. But the situation here is different, he has a great lineup, He can catch only 120 games and the team will be fine.

Does he not call a great game maybe not, but who says he will be calling the game anyway. Sandy wasn't even calling his own game in many instances.

You forget he does know AL hitters and brings that experience to the table. Olivo has a ways to go before he is ready to take over a team, especially one seemingly being built to win now. It makes perfect sense that KW is trying to strengthen the team up the middle. KW knows that barring something spectacular we will have an unproven CFer, and SS who has trouble making routine plays.

KW probably feels that if he can get a catcher of his calibur somewhat inexpensively he will go for it. It also seems like KW has learned to keep his negotiations quiet until they are ready to hatch, which I think is a smart thing. That way if nothing happens he is no worse for the wear, unlike the Arod situation from 2001.

NYSF

gosox41
01-16-2003, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by ¡Viva Mágglio!
...the White Sox might sign Pudge. And I am not talking about No. 72.

From the Daily Herald's Barry Rozner: "White Sox should now go get Pudge" (http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/col_rozner.asp)

It should be noted that Rozner was one of the first to scoop the Sox' interest with Bartólo Colón and Javier Vazquéz.

I would love for the Sox to sign IRod. I just don't think it's realistic. They're not going to offer him $6 mill per year for 3 years like the Orioles did. I don't IRod would take a one year contract with a lesser base salary and tons of incentives when he could get $18 mill. Most players want to play for a winner. But when push comes to shove, it's all about the money.

Bob

:reinsy
You Sox fans are such patsies who fell for the marketing ploy. I still got to raise ticket prices to try and capitalize on the All Star game while in the process cut the payroll. I get you Colon and now you guys all love Kenny....who I personally hired. Suckers

bc2k
01-16-2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
or they could sign Rodriquez to a one year deal (maybe with an $8 million base, with incentives that could net him another $4-6 million), that would be perfect.

Yes, that would be perfect. If it is true that IRod's phone isn't ringing - let alone being offered contracts, he could be forced to take a one year deal from the Sox. Perhaps KW could persuade IRod to accept this one year deal and bank on the following year's free agent market ala Juan Gonzalez with the Indians.

joecrede
01-16-2003, 12:26 PM
The idea of I-Rod in the lineup is intriguing. The payroll is somewhere around $56-57M (the Trib says the Sox gave the Expos $4M in the deal (they got $2M from the Yankees)) so they might be able to get him for 1-yr at $8M, but I think in general it's bad practice to block your best prospects by signing free-agents. When it's time to play these guys like Rauch and Olivio you're almost obligated to because they're the lifeblood of your organization.

Foulke You
01-16-2003, 12:36 PM
KW was quoted in today's Sun-Times as saying "I'm pretty much tapped out, payroll wise." when asked if he would look outside the organization for a #3-5 calibur starter. I think that pretty much kills the I-Rod talk unless they can get him for a song which Rodriguez and his agent haven't been willing to do. I think what people forget is that the reason I-Rod isn't signed yet is because he wants a ton of money. Reportedly in the $8-9 million range. If anyone could get him for cheap right now I would think his phone would be ringing off the hook.

StepsInSC
01-16-2003, 01:15 PM
I can honestly say, if this team goes out and signs I-Rod, I will seriously consider buying a season package.

Mark my words I will too, and I live like 1500 miles away from Chicago. I'll freaking commute if need be.

CHISOXFAN13
01-16-2003, 01:23 PM
If we sign IROD, who the hell cares about when Olivo is ready to catch 135 games. Let's win now. I'm tired of mediocrity.
The future looks bright, but dammit, I moved to Bridgeport to see a winner!!!

PaleHoseGeorge
01-16-2003, 01:30 PM
Entering the off-season, the Sox had 4 major needs. In order, they were:

1. Starting Pitching
2. Lead-off man
3. Everyday Centerfielder
4. Everyday Catcher

Acquiring Colon goes a long way to solving #1. We still haven't done anything to fix #2. We can only pray "Dirt Bike" Rowand is simply the punchline to a bad joke about #3.

As for #4, we signed "Knees" Alomar, but only to fill the hole from trading Mark Johnson. We don't have anybody to catch everyday except praying Miguel Olivo develops between now and April.

Clearly I-Rod is an upgrade. We need to improve at least one more area (among any of the four listed above) before October baseball is a realistic expectation and not just a feverent hope.

NewyorkSoxFan
01-16-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
The idea of I-Rod in the lineup is intriguing. The payroll is somewhere around $56-57M (the Trib says the Sox gave the Expos $4M in the deal (they got $2M from the Yankees)) so they might be able to get him for 1-yr at $8M, but I think in general it's bad practice to block your best prospects by signing free-agents. When it's time to play these guys like Rauch and Olivio you're almost obligated to because they're the lifeblood of your organization.


Normally Joe I would agree with you, but I don't think-stress think someone correct if I'm wrong- Olivio hasn't spent a full year in 3A. So I'm not so sure he's ready to be the everyday catcher. I don't think "Knees" alomar would be here if he was.

I do think perhaps KW didn't anticipate him being on the market this long, and with his price dropping like a boulder in the east river he might now be affordable when once he may have not been.

Even if he doesn't sign here, KW is doing the right thing to explore if he can improve the team significantly. And IRod would be a significant upgrade injuries and all.

NYSF

joecrede
01-16-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
If we sign IROD, who the hell cares about when Olivo is ready to catch 135 games. Let's win now. I'm tired of mediocrity.
The future looks bright, but dammit, I moved to Bridgeport to see a winner!!!

Is Olivio going to put up I-Rod numbers next year? Unlikely. I think though Olivio will be more than adequate. Why spend the kind of money it would take to get I-Rod when catcher isn't really a problem.

NewyorkSoxFan
01-16-2003, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Is Olivio going to put up I-Rod numbers next year? Unlikely. I think though Olivio will be more than adequate. Why spend the kind of money it would take to get I-Rod when catcher isn't really a problem.

How could you say catching is not a problem. How many games have you seen this kid catch? Handling a major league staff, knowing the hitters setting the infield defense, and being able to hold runners on, and then go out and hit .280 isn't as easy as you think.

They are doing alot to improve this club, and JR expects them to win NOW! KW would be silly not to look at a "HEALTHY" vet catcher. Olivio may be a good player someday, but he needs time.

Even Posada spent 2 years behind Girardi watching and learning. Olivio will be a better player if he has that opportunity.


NYSF

joecrede
01-16-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Entering the off-season, the Sox had 4 major needs. In order, they were:

1. Starting Pitching
2. Lead-off man
3. Everyday Centerfielder
4. Everyday Catcher

Acquiring Colon goes a long way to solving #1. We still haven't done anything to fix #2. We can only pray "Dirt Bike" Rowand is simply the punchline to a bad joke about #3.

As for #4, we signed "Knees" Alomar, but only to fill the hole from trading Mark Johnson. We don't have anybody to catch everyday except praying Miguel Olivo develops between now and April.

Clearly I-Rod is an upgrade. We need to improve at least one more area (among any of the four listed above) before October baseball is a realistic expectation and not just a feverent hope.

They have potential answers to all four of the areas you identified and IMO none of those answers are reaches.

Rauch was the minor league player of the year in '00. He's one more year recovered from (minor) shoulder surgery and he's being asked to fill the #5 spot in the rotation. He has the potential to surpass both Wright and Garland and move up to #3 by the end of the year. Few teams have better options at #5.

Jimenez showed he can be a capable leadoff hitter in his month long tryout. Until he proves he cannot handle that spot I'm not too concerned about it.

Centerfield is Borchard's job. Rowand and Rios will just keep it warm for him in April and May and my thoughts on the catching position are known from previous posts in this thread.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-16-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Is Olivio going to put up I-Rod numbers next year? Unlikely. I think though Olivio will be more than adequate. Why spend the kind of money it would take to get I-Rod when catcher isn't really a problem.

Expecting to cover 162 games behind the plate with "Knees" Alomar, "Versatile Leftfielder" Paul, and "19 MLB At-Bats" Olivo is definitely a problem. There isn't an everyday catcher among them. The only way you could characterize this as "not really a problem" is if you're content to risk finishing behind Minnesota in the A.L. Central again. If that's the case, there isn't much sense getting excited about acquiring Colon. We may only have him for one season.

Olivio will finally "put up I-Rod numbers" just in time for one of our 20-game winners to leave via free agency. And the Sox' 50 year-old merry-go-round of mediocrity continues...

delben91
01-16-2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Is Olivio going to put up I-Rod numbers next year? Unlikely. I think though Olivio will be more than adequate. Why spend the kind of money it would take to get I-Rod when catcher isn't really a problem.

I agree that Olivo will "hold his own" this year. And when you think about it, as much as I loved Mark Johnson for his defensive ability, the word on Olivo (and Randar or someone who knows more is welcome to correct me) is that he is average to above average defensively at the moment and getting better. Also, I'd like to think he could top MJ's .215 BA and other offensive inadequacies.

NewyorkSoxFan
01-16-2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
They have potential answers to all four of the areas you identified and IMO none of those answers are reaches.

Rauch was the minor league player of the year in '00. He's one more year recovered from (minor) shoulder surgery and he's being asked to fill the #5 spot in the rotation. He has the potential to surpass both Wright and Garland and move up to #3 by the end of the year. Few teams have better options at #5.

Jimenez showed he can be a capable leadoff hitter in his month long tryout. Until he proves he cannot handle that spot I'm not too concerned about it.

Centerfield is Borchard's job. Rowand and Rios will just keep it warm for him in April and May and my thoughts on the catching position are known from previous posts in this thread.

So you are banking our season on a rookie 5th starter, a rookie 2nd baseman, rookie catcher, and a 2nd year(Rowand), a journeyman (Rios), and another rookie (Borchard).

That's alot of young guys that you need to have big years in order to win. If they did it god love em, but everyone on here would fry KW because they would say "he got his big pitcher and didn't do anything else." KW knows he needs some more stability in those positions.

We haven't seen enough of those guys to say whether they can handle it. Playing in Sept when you are 13 games out is not like playing in April when you are trying to set a tone for the entire season.

NYSF

Randar68
01-16-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Sandy wasn't even calling his own game in many instances.


Sandy called every pitch himself.

Josh Paul was the only catcher the last few years that didn't call all of his own pitches (with good reason).

Randar68
01-16-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by delben91
I agree that Olivo will "hold his own" this year. And when you think about it, as much as I loved Mark Johnson for his defensive ability, the word on Olivo (and Randar or someone who knows more is welcome to correct me) is that he is average to above average defensively at the moment and getting better. Also, I'd like to think he could top MJ's .215 BA and other offensive inadequacies.

Olivo will be the best hitting catcher the Sox have had in 4 or 5 years... This year.

He has great footwork behind the plate, but he still has problems with blocking pitches and game calling, mostly just a lack of experience.

Offensively, he should hit .260 in his sleep with an OBP around .330-.340. He probably won't hit 20 HR's, but if he catches 100 games, he'll probably steal 20 bases.

soxrme
01-16-2003, 03:17 PM
Alomar as mentioned could be a minor league coach or manager. Keep Olivio and Paul. Pudge could catch 100 games and be well worth it. How many guys catch 162 games anyway.
Rauch could be the surprise of the staff. I am still worried about shortstop, Valentin is not the answer. Can Jiminez play short with any consistancy??

Randar68
01-16-2003, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
So you are banking our season on a rookie 5th starter, a rookie 2nd baseman, rookie catcher, and a 2nd year(Rowand), a journeyman (Rios), and another rookie (Borchard).

NYSF

So, our only questionmarks are

1) #5 starter, 2000 MLPOY in his first healthy major league season
2) catcher, where a veteran and a rookie will split time
3) 2nd base, where our player was the best player in all of the dominican league this winter and had a hell of an end to last season
4) Centerfield, where 2 serviceable players who will hit in the .275 range and play average to above defense while holding the spot for the Sox' top minor leaguer

Ummmm, that's a pretty short list if you ask me. I think you've been living in NY too long to remember how everyone but the Yanks, Mets and Red Sox live.

NewyorkSoxFan
01-16-2003, 03:26 PM
I'm not saying that the list is long, just that IF we have a chance to improve one of those areas we should look at it. JoeCrede was saying that we are fine as constituted. We maybe, but CF and Catcher are two important areas.

NYSF

Tragg
01-16-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by ¡Viva Mágglio!
...the White Sox might sign Pudge. And I am not talking about No. 72.

From the Daily Herald's Barry Rozner: "White Sox should now go get Pudge" (http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/col_rozner.asp)

It should be noted that Rozner was one of the first to scoop the Sox' interest with Bartólo Colón and Javier Vazquéz.

I vote nix to pudge - he's on the downside and if we spend our money on him we won't sign our 2 stud pitchers long term.

delben91
01-16-2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by Randar68

4) Centerfield, where 2 serviceable players who will hit in the .275 range and play average to above defense while holding the spot for the Sox' top minor leaguer

Whoa, watch out Randar, you just called Crash "serviceable", I'm tempted to put you in the FOC group. :D:

Seriously though, given our options, I think Roward will fit the bill pretty well. His heart is never questioned, and he'll do decently at the plate. He's just a 4th outfielder in a starter's role. At least it's not Liefer.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-16-2003, 03:46 PM
Question for Randar...

Since none of us know the true finances of the Sox (or any other privately-held company), let's just suppose--strictly for argument's sake-- there was an extra $10 million or so of payroll headroom available in the Sox' 2003 budget. (For example, all-star game tickets proved a bigger inducement to season ticket sales than the Sox anticipated).

Given that there is always room to improve your ballclub, what would YOU do to improve the Sox? Offering your rationale would be helpful, too.

Thanks.

ScottyTheSoxFan
01-16-2003, 04:04 PM
ok so say we make the playoffs, sandy is hurt. your catchers are josh paul and olivo. 2 inexperienced young catchers.

Paulwny
01-16-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
I vote nix to pudge - he's on the downside and if we spend our money on him we won't sign our 2 stud pitchers long term.

I have mixed feelings.
Tom Verducci did an interview on the YES Network and part of the discussion was about I-Rod. He claims many gms are concerned about I-Rod's clubhouse attitude. They want guarantees that he will attend pitcher's meetings to review opposing batters, something he refused to do in Texas. He also mentioned that a Texas pitcher told him that I-Rod didn't know or care to know the pitches that some of the pitchers threw.

Daver
01-16-2003, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
(For example, all-star game tickets proved a bigger inducement to season ticket sales than the Sox anticipated).



Season ticket sales are down as opposed to up as compared to this time last year,despite the All-Star game.

SoxxoS
01-16-2003, 06:00 PM
Just an FYI-

KW did say he was working on something else that would really improve the team, but would not speculate beyond that. This was said at yesterday's press conference.

WhiteSox = Life
01-16-2003, 09:21 PM
Just to weigh in, I think that the issue the White Sox need to address most is not catcher, but lead-off man.

Here's my rationale.

Centerfielder is an important position as a team needs someone who can run fast to shag balls and has a good arm. However, with Rowand, the White Sox may not have an All-Star caliber CF'er, but if he improves his routes and his throwing somewhat over the season, he'll be a good fit, unless KW gets Beltran, but I digress, so -

Number five starter is something that is necessary, but, come playoff time (not to get ahead of myself), a number five starter can be skipped over. During the season, it's important to have a decent number five to give the rotation a rest and I think the White Sox have a number five in Rauch, someone from the bullpen or a Minor League player for now, but -

Second baseman is the second most important hole to fill. A second baseman needs a good arm with pretty good range, but most importantly, needs to know how to turn the double play, a weapon that White Sox pitchers definitely need. The White Sox need good up-the-middle defense (and someone who can work magic with Jose Valentin like Ray Durham did in 2000), but do not need a great hitting second baseman, since -

Yes, there is much, much more to catcher than putting down fingers and catching pitches, but from what I recall, the White Sox don't have a big amount of stolen bases against them, anyway. I may be wrong. I think that catcher is superceded by -

A lead-off man, preferably a good 2B or CF, but, you can't have it all. Clearly, pitching and defense wins games. But, with the way that this offense can go through slumps at any point of the season, a lead-off man is the first course of action that needs to be addressed. With a lead-off man who gets on and is willing to sacrifice for the team, there will be very few team slumps. And even if the lead-off guy is having trouble hitting, he'll still get on other ways.

I think lead-off man is the most important to start the season with. If the White Sox are successful and are seriously contending, come June and July, that's when you try to fill one of the other gaps.

Of course, let's all hope that come June or July, the White Sox are in the thick of things, fighting for home-field advantage and are ready to spring a deal to fill most of the open holes.

Wow. That's a lot of "if's", but...

"To Dream the Impossible Dream / To Reach the Unreachable Goal..."

Ol Aches & Pains
01-16-2003, 09:29 PM
He's a hell of a player, and I hope they get him, but I've got to agree with the other posters: PLEASE stop calling him Pudge. Is nothing sacred?

guillen4life13
01-17-2003, 01:12 AM
Hey. Here's just a question I have that I would really like to know the answer to to make sure I'm not missing anything.

Why do so many people on these boards insist on spelling Olivo as Olivio (with the second "i")? Is it a nickname, or is it just his real name and the whole press and ChiSox have misspelled the name... or are you guys just confused? Thanks

siugrad25
01-17-2003, 01:31 AM
Everytime my wife hears "Pudge" she thinks Fisk. In Chicago, there's only one Pudge. Period.

As for getting the Ivan Rodriguez. Sure we need to be careful with clubhouse attitude, and I do think CF is another priority. But Ivan might be a nice fit for the right price.

I'm not really worried about 5th SP because how many teams can go 5 deep? Excluding NY, ATL and the such.

A catcher would be nice, sure we have a good youngster coming up, but I do worry about growing pains, so getting Rodriguez for 90-100 games, if that, wouldn't be such a bad idea. The guy can still hit, and like in other threads, it sure would bolster our lineup. I like the idea of having a Konerko, a Maggs, a Thomas, a Lee, a Rodriguez, a Valentin, a Crede in the line up.

No matter if KW decides to pick him up, if we're going for it, let's do it. Let's not let this one slip away.

rwschm_bull
01-17-2003, 12:58 PM
I've watched I-Rod play a bunch the last several years -- on one hand I'm intrigued by this rumor -- and on the other hand I want to scream and run away.

I go back-and-forth and back again on this... Why?

I-Rod's rapport with the pitchers on his staff had been criticized in the Dallas press along the lines of:
a) he didn't seem to care to know his pitchers or their stuff
b) his situational game calling was spotty, at best
c) he leaned heavily on the old #1 - perhaps for selfish reasons with men on base (although, since when was preventing runners from stealing something you DIDN'T ENCOURAGE???)
d) he got bored in meetings (with resulting clubhouse and pitching staff issues)
e) situational stats had HIS defensive ERA (Pitcher's ERA with him behind the plate) anywhere from I believe .5 to near 1 run HIGHER than with the backup catcher de jeur -- consistently. The Rangers have had better than average backup catchers, but that stat can't speak highly to his game calling abilities.

His arm showed little sign of slowing down and he continued to enjoy/delight in throwing behind runners after pitches. His thumb injury, while severe at the time, seemed to be totally healthy with no ill affects on his swing. The knees, what can you say -- the grind catches up with everybody. And he seemed, well, almost lazy at times recently getting down on balls in the dirt -- maybe being 10 games below .500 before Memorial Day and 20 games off the pace had something to do about that...

How much is the arm still worth? Can he improve his game calling? Would a new start help the motivation? Marte and Colon might benefit -- but the Rangers had Latin pitchers.

Would I-Rod help draw from the Chicago Latin community? Sure. Churros vendors roaming the stands? Don't know. I-Rod undoubtedly was the most popular Latin player for a team situated in a market with a large Latin community. Does that add to the gate and allow Jerry to consider other moves? Don't know...

Offensively, yet another good news/bad news story...

a) Sox fans haven't seen a comparable player since Ralph "Gator" Garr played for the Southside Hit Men -- he hates to take pitches and swings at just about anything
b) He's got a really bad habit of killing rallies with dp groundballs
c) I don't have situational stats in front of me, but look at his RBI vs HR numbers the past several years -- not counting HIMSELF (dingers), his RBI figures are almost pathetic for somebody hitting in THAT ballpark in the middle of THAT lineup.
d) When he hits the ball, though, he hits it hard and his OBP is consistently in the 350-375 range
e) he's not a station-to-station catcher -- even with his knees, he still has average speed -- he's never going to steal double-figure bases again (much less the 25 he wracked up in '99)

I can't see him ever playing an infield position -- other than the usual 1B switch -- and we've got lots of 1B/DH options (losing Liefer just reduces the clutter). 2B?? Hahahahaha... 3B?? Arm, yes, range no.

It's been almost 15 years since the White Sox built their ballclub around a strong backstop. All the rent-a-catcher years have numbed me to adding a player with so much talent -- but whereas Fisk was in the prime of his carreer when the move was made in '81, the best years for I-Rod may have just passed by. How far down the slope of inevitable decline are we? -- not irrepairably so, but are two valuable years left -- probably so.

Are the downsides too much unless he wants to contend so bad (as opposed to playing for the O's) that he's reasonable salary-wise. Is he better than what we've got -- sure -- If the body-snatchers have invaded the White Sox Front Office and $$ is no object all of a sudden, sure, sign him. I don't know what you then do with Alomar -- trade him for a bag of rosin?

Oh god, what would "the tinkerer" do with another platoon/more interchangeable pieces????

Oh, spit, Olivio may be the answer -- in 2005/6 -- I'll believe I-Rod's a WSox when I see it, however....

This fence is really digging into my @$#.....

hold2dibber
01-17-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by rwschm_bull
I've watched I-Rod play a bunch the last several years -- on one hand I'm intrigued by this rumor -- and on the other hand I want to scream and run away.

I go back-and-forth and back again on this... Why?

I-Rod's rapport with the pitchers on his staff had been criticized in the Dallas press along the lines of:
a) he didn't seem to care to know his pitchers or their stuff
b) his situational game calling was spotty, at best
c) he leaned heavily on the old #1 - perhaps for selfish reasons with men on base (although, since when was preventing runners from stealing something you DIDN'T ENCOURAGE???)
d) he got bored in meetings (with resulting clubhouse and pitching staff issues)
e) situational stats had HIS defensive ERA (Pitcher's ERA with him behind the plate) anywhere from I believe .5 to near 1 run HIGHER than with the backup catcher de jeur -- consistently. The Rangers have had better than average backup catchers, but that stat can't speak highly to his game calling abilities.

His arm showed little sign of slowing down and he continued to enjoy/delight in throwing behind runners after pitches. His thumb injury, while severe at the time, seemed to be totally healthy with no ill affects on his swing. The knees, what can you say -- the grind catches up with everybody. And he seemed, well, almost lazy at times recently getting down on balls in the dirt -- maybe being 10 games below .500 before Memorial Day and 20 games off the pace had something to do about that...

How much is the arm still worth? Can he improve his game calling? Would a new start help the motivation? Marte and Colon might benefit -- but the Rangers had Latin pitchers.

Would I-Rod help draw from the Chicago Latin community? Sure. Churros vendors roaming the stands? Don't know. I-Rod undoubtedly was the most popular Latin player for a team situated in a market with a large Latin community. Does that add to the gate and allow Jerry to consider other moves? Don't know...

Offensively, yet another good news/bad news story...

a) Sox fans haven't seen a comparable player since Ralph "Gator" Garr played for the Southside Hit Men -- he hates to take pitches and swings at just about anything
b) He's got a really bad habit of killing rallies with dp groundballs
c) I don't have situational stats in front of me, but look at his RBI vs HR numbers the past several years -- not counting HIMSELF (dingers), his RBI figures are almost pathetic for somebody hitting in THAT ballpark in the middle of THAT lineup.
d) When he hits the ball, though, he hits it hard and his OBP is consistently in the 350-375 range
e) he's not a station-to-station catcher -- even with his knees, he still has average speed -- he's never going to steal double-figure bases again (much less the 25 he wracked up in '99)

I can't see him ever playing an infield position -- other than the usual 1B switch -- and we've got lots of 1B/DH options (losing Liefer just reduces the clutter). 2B?? Hahahahaha... 3B?? Arm, yes, range no.

It's been almost 15 years since the White Sox built their ballclub around a strong backstop. All the rent-a-catcher years have numbed me to adding a player with so much talent -- but whereas Fisk was in the prime of his carreer when the move was made in '81, the best years for I-Rod may have just passed by. How far down the slope of inevitable decline are we? -- not irrepairably so, but are two valuable years left -- probably so.

Are the downsides too much unless he wants to contend so bad (as opposed to playing for the O's) that he's reasonable salary-wise. Is he better than what we've got -- sure -- If the body-snatchers have invaded the White Sox Front Office and $$ is no object all of a sudden, sure, sign him. I don't know what you then do with Alomar -- trade him for a bag of rosin?

Oh god, what would "the tinkerer" do with another platoon/more interchangeable pieces????

Oh, spit, Olivio may be the answer -- in 2005/6 -- I'll believe I-Rod's a WSox when I see it, however....

This fence is really digging into my @$#.....

Great post. I think all of this is just speculation anyway; KW said in the paper that he was tapped out payroll wise, so it's not going to happen. But just for kicks, my 2 cents would be that I'd love to see the Sox sign him to a 1 year deal. But that's probably all I'd be willing to do, with all the questions about Rodriquez's health and attitude, and with Olivo waiting in the wings.

soxtalker
01-17-2003, 02:15 PM
Well, my initial reaction to going after I-Rod was "this would be terrific" (provided we can work out something that allows Olivo to
move into the catcher position full-time the next year). But there have been a couple of posters that have mentioned problems with I-Rod's attitude and interaction with pitchers on the Texas staff. Boy, what a contrast with our Pudge!

This would be a big show-stopper for me. I don't care how great his talent or our need in this area is, if the pitchers don't respect or get along with him, he'll just be a cancer. And I don't really think that we'd want Olivo learning that sort of attitude or work ethic.

bc2k
01-17-2003, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
And the Sox' 50 year-old merry-go-round of mediocrity continues...

Merry-go-round of mediocrity. Haha. That has a nice sound to it, too bad its meaning is depressing.

CWsox45
01-17-2003, 03:57 PM
Let us also remember that Rozner also reported that the Sox would acquire David Wells for 2001. It could be, then again probably not.

CWSOX45