PDA

View Full Version : Do we need to replace Biddle?


pudge
01-15-2003, 03:50 PM
Okay, looks like we've got players about to sign to replace Leifer and Osuna, but now the biggie - how badly do we need to replace Biddle? I personally think he was the best option for #5 (might have been our #4 even). Is everyone okay with Rauch, or do we need someone else... my opinion is that, since we are likely only going to have Colon for ONE season, we need to go out and finish this rotation, Valdez, Suppan, whoever... we have to finish this all the way, or it'll be David Wells redux. (And with our luck, Biddle will be a 15 game winner for years to come...)

hold2dibber
01-15-2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Okay, looks like we've got players about to sign to replace Leifer and Osuna, but now the biggie - how badly do we need to replace Biddle? I personally think he was the best option for #5 (might have been our #4 even). Is everyone okay with Rauch, or do we need someone else... my opinion is that, since we are likely only going to have Colon for ONE season, we need to go out and finish this rotation, Valdez, Suppan, whoever... we have to finish this all the way, or it'll be David Wells redux. (And with our luck, Biddle will be a 15 game winner for years to come...)

I made this point in another thread; they do need another starter in case Rauch doesn't get it done or one of our other guys gets hurt. The problem with signing Suppan or Valdes is that those guys are going to be locks for the rotation, which means, what do we do with Rauch if he is in fact ready? This is exactly why the Sox should have signed Ramiro Mendoza - somebody who is comfortable out of the pen or starting. I think what they'll do is try to sign someone coming off of injury who will be content to fight for a roster spot, like Steve Parris or, dare I say, Jim Parque.

Randar68
01-15-2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Okay, looks like we've got players about to sign to replace Leifer and Osuna, but now the biggie - how badly do we need to replace Biddle? I personally think he was the best option for #5 (might have been our #4 even). Is everyone okay with Rauch, or do we need someone else... my opinion is that, since we are likely only going to have Colon for ONE season, we need to go out and finish this rotation, Valdez, Suppan, whoever... we have to finish this all the way, or it'll be David Wells redux. (And with our luck, Biddle will be a 15 game winner for years to come...)

I have been a huge fan of Biddle since he was in AA, however, he is not a #1 or #2 guy and never will be. He's a #4 or 5 on a real good team and at best over his career will be a #3.

Colon has stated on numerous occassionas he wants to sign an extension with whatever team he was traded too. Will the Sox do it? who knows, but if they did, this trade was an absolute STEAL!

With Gordon (pretty good when healthy, but not as good as Osuna last season (career year) ) and I would put some good money on Munoz making the bullpen out of spring training, and he is electric.

I don't know why you feel the need to whine about this trade already. If Colon stays healthy, this is by far Kenny's best trade. If they resign Colon, this is the best Sox trade of the past 20 years or perhaps longer.

Randar68
01-15-2003, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I made this point in another thread; they do need another starter in case Rauch doesn't get it done or one of our other guys gets hurt. The problem with signing Suppan or Valdes is that those guys are going to be locks for the rotation, which means, what do we do with Rauch if he is in fact ready? This is exactly why the Sox should have signed Ramiro Mendoza - somebody who is comfortable out of the pen or starting. I think what they'll do is try to sign someone coming off of injury who will be content to fight for a roster spot, like Steve Parris or, dare I say, Jim Parque.

Rauch will end up being our #3 pitcher by year's end. starting with him as the #5 is a no-brainer.

Blueprint1
01-15-2003, 04:04 PM
If the Sox start to play really well after this trade I think the Sox pay situation will change next year. This means we might be able to keep people around. Its just a thought.

joecrede
01-15-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Okay, looks like we've got players about to sign to replace Leifer and Osuna, but now the biggie - how badly do we need to replace Biddle? I personally think he was the best option for #5 (might have been our #4 even). Is everyone okay with Rauch, or do we need someone else... my opinion is that, since we are likely only going to have Colon for ONE season, we need to go out and finish this rotation, Valdez, Suppan, whoever... we have to finish this all the way, or it'll be David Wells redux. (And with our luck, Biddle will be a 15 game winner for years to come...)

My thought is that since we are only going to have Colon for one year break Rauch into the rotation at #5. His time is now and the Sox making the playoffs should not come down to a solid 5th starter anyway so he shouldn't feel any pressure.

34 Inch Stick
01-15-2003, 04:06 PM
Sit on what we have until Spring. If it looks like we need to shore up the rotation you can do it in spring training. The #2 need after top of the rotation starting pitcher was centerfielder who can lead off. Is there anyone out there who intrigues you?

hold2dibber
01-15-2003, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Rauch will end up being our #3 pitcher by year's end. starting with him as the #5 is a no-brainer.

I think that is a very real possibility, but I still think they need one more pitcher capable of starting, in case someone gets hurt. They just don't have any starting pitching depth at all.

Randar68
01-15-2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I think that is a very real possibility, but I still think they need one more pitcher capable of starting, in case someone gets hurt. They just don't have any starting pitching depth at all.

Gary Glover, Josh Stewart, Corwin Malone???

You don't trade for a guy just-in-case unless you have the Yankee's payroll. Let's not be greedy, the Sox just took on 7 million in payroll or so.

delben91
01-15-2003, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Gary Glover, Josh Stewart, Corwin Malone???



Randar, you took the words right out of my mouth sir.

If KW were to feel compelled to sign a Suppan or a Finley, I of course wouldn't mind.

joecrede
01-15-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I think that is a very real possibility, but I still think they need one more pitcher capable of starting, in case someone gets hurt. They just don't have any starting pitching depth at all.

If someone were to get injured they could slide Glover, maybe Ginter into the rotation and Almonte or Munoz into the pen.

jeremyb1
01-15-2003, 04:55 PM
i agree with what everyone else said. rauch should be more than capable of holding down the five spot in the rotation. if he can't its not like we're completely devoid of options. pitchers like stewart, malone, ulacia, or west could be given a shot if needbe. odds are at least one of them well have a decent season at AAA. we could also swing a deal for a journey man type or something if we're forced too. i just don't see rauch doing so terrible that he can't be our number five starter. i mean how poorly would he have to do? i'm thinking his era would have to be over six and that seems highly unlikely. wright's era was over 5.5 in the first half last season and yet he still had some good starts. he still would've been good enough to be a no. 5.

hold2dibber
01-15-2003, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i agree with what everyone else said. rauch should be more than capable of holding down the five spot in the rotation. if he can't its not like we're completely devoid of options. pitchers like stewart, malone, ulacia, or west could be given a shot if needbe. odds are at least one of them well have a decent season at AAA. we could also swing a deal for a journey man type or something if we're forced too. i just don't see rauch doing so terrible that he can't be our number five starter. i mean how poorly would he have to do? i'm thinking his era would have to be over six and that seems highly unlikely. wright's era was over 5.5 in the first half last season and yet he still had some good starts. he still would've been good enough to be a no. 5.

Do you really think that Malone, West or Ulacia is a viable option? I don't. And as much as I agree that Rauch will almost certainly be good enough as a no. 5 starter, the fact remains that I can't remember the last season in which the Sox starting 5 remained the same for the whole season. So odds are, it won't happen this season, either because of injury or ineffectiveness. I would like to have a better option than Malone, West or Ulacia, and I would much rather have Glover and Ginter coming out of the pen than in the rotation.

ssang
01-15-2003, 05:08 PM
Bottom line is that this is the year the Sox will make a push. They have the starters to contend up top (Buherle and Colon) and Garland should come into his own (If this isn't the year then we gotta worry about this kid). Dan Wright, if he remains consistent, could be a good pitcher and Rauch has some potential at the #5. The rotation has some serious upside. The keys are Garland, Wright, and Rauch. If Garland and Wright show the promise they had on occasion in '02 then the Sox could be awesome. this season! Rauch looked pretty weak to me last year. It's embarrasing to have a 6'11 man throwing 90 mph. I just don't know about him. I hope Rauch can prove me wrong!

pudge
01-15-2003, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


I don't know why you feel the need to whine about this trade already. If Colon stays healthy, this is by far Kenny's best trade. If they resign Colon, this is the best Sox trade of the past 20 years or perhaps longer.

I've been called a pollyanna on this site before, and now I get knocked for being realistic about a trade that everyone else is soiling their panties for... God I love WSI!!

pudge
01-15-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Gary Glover, Josh Stewart, Corwin Malone???

You don't trade for a guy just-in-case unless you have the Yankee's payroll. Let's not be greedy, the Sox just took on 7 million in payroll or so.

Folks, we have to go for it NOW... look how hard the Yanks and Red Sox fought for Colon - you don't think they'll be fighting for Colon again next season?? Are you really going to bank on Colon being back??

hold2dibber
01-15-2003, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Gary Glover, Josh Stewart, Corwin Malone???

You don't trade for a guy just-in-case unless you have the Yankee's payroll. Let's not be greedy, the Sox just took on 7 million in payroll or so.

Do you really think Malone or Stewart can get anyone out at the major league level? I don't see it. Without another addition, Glover is probably the best option, but I think he's really valuable in the pen. And I'm not talking about trading for a "just in case" guy; I'm talking about signing a free agent who is willing to take a minor league contract and fight for a roster spot. I also think signing Lieber would make a lot of sense.

Randar68
01-15-2003, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Do you really think Malone or Stewart can get anyone out at the major league level? I don't see it. Without another addition, Glover is probably the best option, but I think he's really valuable in the pen. And I'm not talking about trading for a "just in case" guy; I'm talking about signing a free agent who is willing to take a minor league contract and fight for a roster spot. I also think signing Lieber would make a lot of sense.

The difference is reality vs. Yankees. We ain't in NY, are we? We got Colon. We have viable #5 options within the organization if we are forced to use them at some point and wouldn't have to pay or give anything up to use them. We have 4-6 pitchers who could step in and give you 5-6 innings if need be at the #5 spot. The only change in the rotation picture was removing Biddle and replacing him with Colon. The overall depth of the staff has not changed. If you get a veteran #4 or 5, what do you do? Pay them 1-4 million to sit on the bench "in case" someone gets hurt or give them Garland, Wright or Rauch's innings (assinine)?

Give me a freaking break. Do you think a veteran who can't make a roster is worthy of taking the innings over any of these options? I sure don't. I would rather give them to anyone else who has future potential.

hold2dibber
01-15-2003, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
The difference is reality vs. Yankees. We ain't in NY, are we? We got Colon. We have viable #5 options within the organization if we are forced to use them at some point and wouldn't have to pay or give anything up to use them. We have 4-6 pitchers who could step in and give you 5-6 innings if need be at the #5 spot. The only change in the rotation picture was removing Biddle and replacing him with Colon. The overall depth of the staff has not changed. If you get a veteran #4 or 5, what do you do? Pay them 1-4 million to sit on the bench "in case" someone gets hurt or give them Garland, Wright or Rauch's innings (assinine)?

Give me a freaking break. Do you think a veteran who can't make a roster is worthy of taking the innings over any of these options? I sure don't. I would rather give them to anyone else who has future potential.

You appear to be completely missing my point. I'm not suggesting that they should pay anyone $1 to $4 million and I'm not suggesting that they sign a free agent to take starts away from one of the young guys. What if Rauch comes to spring training and his shoulder has regressed, he can't hit 85 mph on the gun and has an ERA of 12.72? What if Buehrle pulls his hamstring and is going to miss the first month of the season? What if Danny Wright develops Rick Ankiel disease in spring training? My point is, I don't think the Sox do have a viable option if any of these things happen. I just don't think Stewart or Malone is ready. I think the Sox need to find another pitcher or two who will come to camp with a minor league contract, be able to step in if something happens to one of the other starters, but will go to the bullpen or to Charlotte otherwise. Someone who will be cheap but gives us some depth if it becomes needed. Someone along the lines of Steve Parris or someone else coming back from injury who could pan out if healthy, but who is just trying to get back in the league. Maybe the only real difference between us on this point is that you think that Malone or West or Ulacia might be effective in the majors at this point in time, whereas I don't, and I think they could probably find a better option than any of those guys without paying any $ or taking innings away from Rauch, Wright or Garland (absent injury).

pudge
01-15-2003, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
The only change in the rotation picture was removing Biddle and replacing him with Colon. The overall depth of the staff has not changed.

Thanks for proving my point - our depth hasn't changed, so why not CHANGE it?? Why not freakin' GO FOR IT with an extra $1-$4 million dollar starter, like a Finley, Rogers, whoever... how much did Valdes get today from Texas? I guess we don't know yet, but he would have been worth it too... Look, if we didn't get Colon, I would not be in favor of wasting $$ on a mediocre veteran starter, but now that we DO have Colon (for likely only ONE season) why the heck not??

Lip Man 1
01-15-2003, 08:06 PM
"With Colon, the White Sox now have the second-best starting rotation in the AL Central. The Minnesota Twins still have the division's best staff (with Eric Milton, Brad Radke, Joe Mays, Rick Reed and Kyle Lohse)."--Dave Campbell ESPN

They still need another starting pitcher, a Suppan or a Valdes will be fine and I would add that after the Sox sign Gordon tomorrow (according to the folks at the Tribune) the Sox STILL need one more quality middle relief guy (and I don't mean Matt Ginter!)

I have no faith in The Big Eunuch in the middle of what could be a divisional stretch drive come August. Get a pitcher NOW before you have to overpay if you badly need one come July 31st.

Lip

PaleHoseGeorge
01-15-2003, 08:27 PM
In the history of Major League Baseball, has there ever been a team that couldn't use a bit more pitching?

Yes, we need another starter. After that, we'll need another starter. And another starter. And another starter. Why? Because each time we add a starter, our bullpen gets stronger with all the ex-starters. We simply dump the Mike Porzios of this world off the roster--and that's a good thing!

For now, I'm glad we have Colon. Of course I'll gladly take more, but that will never change--whether we made the deal for Colon or not.

:gulp:

Randar68
01-15-2003, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
You appear to be completely missing my point. I'm not suggesting that they should pay anyone $1 to $4 million and I'm not suggesting that they sign a free agent to take starts away from one of the young guys. What if Rauch comes to spring training and his shoulder has regressed, he can't hit 85 mph on the gun and has an ERA of 12.72? What if Buehrle pulls his hamstring and is going to miss the first month of the season? What if Danny Wright develops Rick Ankiel disease in spring training? My point is, I don't think the Sox do have a viable option if any of these things happen. I just don't think Stewart or Malone is ready. I think the Sox need to find another pitcher or two who will come to camp with a minor league contract, be able to step in if something happens to one of the other starters, but will go to the bullpen or to Charlotte otherwise. Someone who will be cheap but gives us some depth if it becomes needed. Someone along the lines of Steve Parris or someone else coming back from injury who could pan out if healthy, but who is just trying to get back in the league. Maybe the only real difference between us on this point is that you think that Malone or West or Ulacia might be effective in the majors at this point in time, whereas I don't, and I think they could probably find a better option than any of those guys without paying any $ or taking innings away from Rauch, Wright or Garland (absent injury).

:whoflungpoo

"And what if the sky falls down tomorrow?!?!?"

Jesus Christ, people.

pudge
01-16-2003, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
:whoflungpoo

"And what if the sky falls down tomorrow?!?!?"

Jesus Christ, people.

If the sky didn't keep falling on us, maybe we'd have a different attitude.

Randar68
01-16-2003, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by pudge
If the sky didn't keep falling on us, maybe we'd have a different attitude.

The sky has never fallen on you, White Sox management has fallen all over itself, and you at some point have fallen for it.

Take all of this in context and get back to reality. This club has enough options to endure a starter going down for a while. Are they going to scare a lot of people? Probably not. But outside of NY, nobody's 6th starter is going to.

We have the players in the system already, why add a crappy vet just to add one? That's what the Cubs do. Develop your talent while you win. That's what the Braves and Yankees do.

Take your pick. You can't win a division title now and in 1 or 2 years, have a lineup with 20 years combined experience and hope to keep winning. I want to win a title as much as the next guy, but if you think adding a Suppan or some other half-ass option is the final piece, I got sour news for ya, Jack.

pudge
01-16-2003, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
The sky has never fallen on you, White Sox management has fallen all over itself, and you at some point have fallen for it.

Take all of this in context and get back to reality. This club has enough options to endure a starter going down for a while. Are they going to scare a lot of people? Probably not. But outside of NY, nobody's 6th starter is going to.

We have the players in the system already, why add a crappy vet just to add one? That's what the Cubs do. Develop your talent while you win. That's what the Braves and Yankees do.

Take your pick. You can't win a division title now and in 1 or 2 years, have a lineup with 20 years combined experience and hope to keep winning. I want to win a title as much as the next guy, but if you think adding a Suppan or some other half-ass option is the final piece, I got sour news for ya, Jack.

Maybe Suppan is not the answer, but according to you, he's not even worth a shot, which is basic foolishness. Comparing us to the Braves and Yanks, who have always had THREE stud starters, while developing their #4 and #5, is a joke. I consider Garland and Wright very much in the "developmental" stage. And Rauch has plenty of time to get his chance AFTER we go for a ring while we still have Colon.

All I'm saying is, we should not stop adding arms, if we're really gonna go for this thing this season. There are guys out there who will have better seasons than Mr. Rauch. Heck, there are guys out there who will have better seasons than Mr. Wright. And if we do pick up a veteran and he sucks, then so what? At least we tried. I will guarantee Rauch and/or Wright will get shelled this season, and we'll wish we had another starter.

voodoochile
01-16-2003, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by pudge
Maybe Suppan is not the answer, but according to you, he's not even worth a shot, which is basic foolishness. Comparing us to the Braves and Yanks, who have always had THREE stud starters, while developing their #4 and #5, is a joke. I consider Garland and Wright very much in the "developmental" stage. And Rauch has plenty of time to get his chance AFTER we go for a ring while we still have Colon.

All I'm saying is, we should not stop adding arms, if we're really gonna go for this thing this season. There are guys out there who will have better seasons than Mr. Rauch. Heck, there are guys out there who will have better seasons than Mr. Wright. And if we do pick up a veteran and he sucks, then so what? At least we tried. I will guarantee Rauch and/or Wright will get shelled this season, and we'll wish we had another starter.

I have to side with Randar here. If Buehrle and Colon live up to their expectations (18+ wins apiece) then the Sox only need to do solidly in the other three slots to win the divison. I would expect that between Garland, Wright and Rauch, the Sox will find at least one more pitcher capable of pitching in prime time with pennants on the line. If one pitcher does go down for a brief time, I would think the Sox could make do (Ginter?) for a brief stretch and bring up one of the aforementioned minor leaguers to pitch out of the pen.

If July rolls around and the Sox desperately need another pitcher then they can worry about acquiring someone via trade, but like PHG said - "A team ALWAYS can use more pitching."

pudge
01-16-2003, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I have to side with Randar here. If Buehrle and Colon live up to their expectations (18+ wins apiece) then the Sox only need to do solidly in the other three slots to win the divison.

Holy cr@p.... isn't ANYONE thinking World Series here?

But besides that... why does everyone insist on taking the chance that we'll win the division with what we have?? Didn't you read Campbell's quote from above... "The Twins STILL have the better rotation..."

This is baffling to me, and I'm usually not one to pump up veteran players.... but damn, a Chuck Finley would be sweet right about now...

Randar68
01-16-2003, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by pudge
Holy cr@p.... isn't ANYONE thinking World Series here?

But besides that... why does everyone insist on taking the chance that we'll win the division with what we have?? Didn't you read Campbell's quote from above... "The Twins STILL have the better rotation..."

This is baffling to me, and I'm usually not one to pump up veteran players.... but damn, a Chuck Finley would be sweet right about now...

Some people prefer not to set their expectations unrealistically. If it happens, great, if not, you don't end up disappointed. I would like to make the playoffs on a consistent basis and no, I do not believe this team has what it takes to get to the World Series, let alone, win it. However, there is nobody out there worth salvaging some part of the future for at the expense of Rauch et al. If they surprise me, fantastic, if not, fine. It doesn't matter how much you spend, you still have to win the games. Spending for spendings sake is foolish beyond belief.

If you can get Beltran, great, but I would bet it would take a ship full of ritches to get KC to trade him within the division. Nobody else on the market is worth a damn outside of Vasquez.

jeremyb1
01-16-2003, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
"With Colon, the White Sox now have the second-best starting rotation in the AL Central. The Minnesota Twins still have the division's best staff (with Eric Milton, Brad Radke, Joe Mays, Rick Reed and Kyle Lohse)."--Dave Campbell ESPN

They still need another starting pitcher, a Suppan or a Valdes will be fine and I would add that after the Sox sign Gordon tomorrow (according to the folks at the Tribune) the Sox STILL need one more quality middle relief guy (and I don't mean Matt Ginter!)

I have no faith in The Big Eunuch in the middle of what could be a divisional stretch drive come August. Get a pitcher NOW before you have to overpay if you badly need one come July 31st.


valdes is gone. he signed with the rangers today. i don't think it makes sense to sign a veteran to be your fifth starter when you have someone like rauch to fill in. signing an established starter such as suppan effectively prevents rauch from even competing for a rotation spot.

no offense, lip, but merely the fact that you've called him the big eunuch doesn't really mean anything. you're correct that he's not a proven pitcher but that's why he's our fifth starter. you've offered no actual other reasons as to why he can't succeed as a fifth starter.

no major league team has business developing players if they develope a pitcher like rauch - formerly the minor league player of the year and number three prospect in baseball with nearly limitless potential - and then refuses to let him compete for a roster spot when his time has come.

jeremyb1
01-16-2003, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by pudge
Holy cr@p.... isn't ANYONE thinking World Series here?

But besides that... why does everyone insist on taking the chance that we'll win the division with what we have?? Didn't you read Campbell's quote from above... "The Twins STILL have the better rotation..."

This is baffling to me, and I'm usually not one to pump up veteran players.... but damn, a Chuck Finley would be sweet right about now...

no one even thought we could beat the twins who i think are overrated as it is yesterday. now we're headed to the world series? that's a stretch for me. that'd require a breakout season from at least one pitcher in the backend of our rotation (era below 4 and 15-18 wins) and overall good luck.

hold2dibber
01-16-2003, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
:whoflungpoo

"And what if the sky falls down tomorrow?!?!?"

Jesus Christ, people.

Give me a friggin' break, Randar. You think I'm being unrealistic and "chicken-little-esque" because of the possibility that one of the Sox starters won't make it through the season? When was the last time the Sox' rotation did not change during the course of the season? In '00 it was Baldwin and Eldred going down, in '01 it was D. Wells and Parque getting hurt and K. Wells and Garland being ineffective, and in '02 it was Ritchie and Parque getting hurt. My point is, it is highly unlikely that the 5 guys currently slotted for the rotation will all make it through the season. That is not being paranoid, it's being realistic. And I don't think the Sox have anyone else in the system who can step in. I think we need another acquisition, someone who we can play in Charlotte or pitch out of the pen, but provide a half-way decent alternative if someone gets hurt or is ineffective. Malone, Stewart, Sanders - none of those guys is ready.

Randar68
01-16-2003, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Give me a friggin' break, Randar. You think I'm being unrealistic and "chicken-little-esque" because of the possibility that one of the Sox starters won't make it through the season? When was the last time the Sox' rotation did not change during the course of the season? In '00 it was Baldwin and Eldred going down, in '01 it was D. Wells and Parque getting hurt and K. Wells and Garland being ineffective, and in '02 it was Ritchie and Parque getting hurt. My point is, it is highly unlikely that the 5 guys currently slotted for the rotation will all make it through the season. That is not being paranoid, it's being realistic. And I don't think the Sox have anyone else in the system who can step in. I think we need another acquisition, someone who we can play in Charlotte or pitch out of the pen, but provide a half-way decent alternative if someone gets hurt or is ineffective. Malone, Stewart, Sanders - none of those guys is ready.

Your entire post was filled with literal "What if's". I was simply overstating the fact.

OK, Mr. GM. Please tell me who the heck out there is worth Rauch's spot in the rotation?

THIS TEAM CANNOT AFFORD TO SIGN SOME OVERPRICED/OVER-THE-HILL VETERAN TO SIT ON THE BENCH. IN ADDITION, IT WOULD BE ASSININE TO DO SO AT THE EXPENSE OF RAUCH!

Get it through your thick skull.

voodoochile
01-16-2003, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
no one even thought we could beat the twins who i think are overrated as it is yesterday. now we're headed to the world series? that's a stretch for me. that'd require a breakout season from at least one pitcher in the backend of our rotation (era below 4 and 15-18 wins) and overall good luck.

Yep, and I for one expect that exact thing to happen. Which is why I feel another veteran starter is unnecessary. Randar is right - another veteran will only slow the development of these kids. Besides if they don't turn the corner this year, 2 of them can be packaged for whatever ace is available next July...

Besides,all the Sox have to do is make the playoffs and they should be able to get enough starts out of MB and BC to make any series interesting. If on of the "3-kids" finds consistency this season or they trade for another front of the rotation starter then the Sox will be a force in the playoffs as well.

Personally wouldn't be surprised if Clement is available by mid-July and he would make a great innings eater to help get through the end of the season...

hold2dibber
01-16-2003, 12:37 PM
Randar, you claim I have a think skull, but read my post before you jump down my throat and insult me.

I quote from my post: "I think we need another acquisition, someone who we can play in Charlotte or pitch out of the pen, but provide a half-way decent alternative if someone gets hurt or is ineffective." In a previous post, I indicated that what I have in mind is someone who will come in on a minor league contract to try to fight for a spot on the team or who we can park at Charlotte or in the bullpen as insurance. You somehow twist this (or maybe you failed to read my post, or maybe you are too thick skulled to understand my point) by insisting that I've suggested that we find an over priced veteran to take away starts from Rauch. Where the hell do you get that?

I AGREE WITH YOU (as I think all of my posts make clear) that the Sox should NOT sign an overpriced veteran (like Finley or Suppan) to sit on the bench or to take starts away from Rauch. Get it? Can I make that any clearer? Read it again slowly and carefully to make sure you understand. Good.

Okay, now that you understand what I am NOT suggesting, let me try one more time to explain what I AM suggesting, so you can try to get it through your impervious cranium. Try to follow along here: what I am suggesting is that the Sox try to find someone ON THE CHEAP, who is more major league-ready than Malone, West, Ulacia, et al., so that IF Rauch or one of the other starters breaks down or is ineffective (a very likely possibility given recent history) then (AND ONLY THEN) does this new player take starts away from anyone. The kind of guy I'm talking about would fight in spring training for a bullpen spot against Ginter, Wunsch, Stewart, Munoz, etc. but if he doesn't make it goes to Charlotte in hopes of getting another shot. A few years ago the Sox signed a big right handed flame thrower - I think his name was Juden - to pitch in Charlotte after he had injury problems despite some success in the majors. That's the kind of pick up I"m talking about. I am not a GM so I'm not sure exactly who is out there to fit the bill, but maybe someone like Steve Parris, Dustin Hermanson, maybe even James Baldwin, if they cannot find a deal elsewhere, might be willing to come in under such circumstances.

So, to summarize, I want the Sox to find someone ON THE CHEAP, who MIGHT be able to win a bullpen spot or be willing to prove himself at Charlotte, or IF NEEDED, could prove a more suitable rotation replacement than Malone, Ulacia, et al. As I indicated in a prior post, the only real difference in opinion we may have is that I think they could probably find someone VERY CHEAP who would be a better option than the Sox current minor league options, whereas you may think that our minor league guys are viable options. If that's the case, so be it. But I don't appreciate you misrepresenting what I've suggested and then insulting me based upon your misrepresentation! I don't know if that's being thick skulled or if its being a jerk. Either way, chill out.

pudge
01-16-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Your entire post was filled with literal "What if's". I was simply overstating the fact.

OK, Mr. GM. Please tell me who the heck out there is worth Rauch's spot in the rotation?

THIS TEAM CANNOT AFFORD TO SIGN SOME OVERPRICED/OVER-THE-HILL VETERAN TO SIT ON THE BENCH. IN ADDITION, IT WOULD BE ASSININE TO DO SO AT THE EXPENSE OF RAUCH!

Get it through your thick skull.

Woo hoo - we got a serious debate here... fascinating how split we are on this one... I am just shocked so many people are set on "developing" Rauch this season. Anyone remember Jack McDowell went back down to the minors after his first full season and then came back as a stud a couple years later? Rauch is not gonna be that good this season, and I'd rather see him spend it in triple A while we actually try to win a damn ring. If everyone is convinced we have no chance at the Series, then why are we even excited we got Colon?? So we can win a division and get booted in the play-offs? LAME. I don't know the whole FA list right now, but I'd take a lot of guys in the #5 spot over Rauch, frankly - Finley, Rogers, Suppan, and probably a few others...

And I think dibber's point is a VERY GOOD one... Rauch would likely get his chance ANYWAY, because someone WILL get injured during the season. Why not have a backup??

Oh well, guess there's just two opinions on this, and both sides feel strongly.

Randar68
01-16-2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Okay, now that you understand what I am NOT suggesting, let me try one more time to explain what I AM suggesting, so you can try to get it through your impervious cranium. Try to follow along here: what I am suggesting is that the Sox try to find someone ON THE CHEAP, who is more major league-ready than Malone, West, Ulacia, et al., so that IF Rauch or one of the other starters breaks down or is ineffective (a very likely possibility given recent history) then (AND ONLY THEN) does this new player take starts away from anyone. The kind of guy I'm talking about would fight in spring training for a bullpen spot against Ginter, Wunsch, Stewart, Munoz, etc. but if he doesn't make it goes to Charlotte in hopes of getting another shot. A few years ago the Sox signed a big right handed flame thrower - I think his name was Juden - to pitch in Charlotte after he had injury problems despite some success in the majors. That's the kind of pick up I"m talking about. I am not a GM so I'm not sure exactly who is out there to fit the bill, but maybe someone like Steve Parris, Dustin Hermanson, maybe even James Baldwin, if they cannot find a deal elsewhere, might be willing to come in under such circumstances.

My point is this: Ginter, Glover, Stewart, or anyone from the minors has as good a chance or better to come in and be effective than Jeff Juden ever did.

Originally posted by hold2dibber
So, to summarize, I want the Sox to find someone ON THE CHEAP, who MIGHT be able to win a bullpen spot or be willing to prove himself at Charlotte, or IF NEEDED, could prove a more suitable rotation replacement than Malone, Ulacia, et al. As I indicated in a prior post, the only real difference in opinion we may have is that I think they could probably find someone VERY CHEAP who would be a better option than the Sox current minor league options, whereas you may think that our minor league guys are viable options. If that's the case, so be it. But I don't appreciate you misrepresenting what I've suggested and then insulting me based upon your misrepresentation! I don't know if that's being thick skulled or if its being a jerk. Either way, chill out.

CHEAP: take Finley and Baldwin out of the equation. There is really nobody I would rather give the starts to as opposed to an unproven young player. Inexperienced doesn't mean much when compared to experienced and sucks. I guess it comes down to preference. Use what you have to fill the gaps at no additional cost, or invest up-front to have some "just-in-case" players. I'm not saying which I prefer, but I do know which one the Sox prefer.

Lip Man 1
01-16-2003, 02:25 PM
A few points:

Jeremy says that Rauch was the minor league pitcher of the year and he's correct EXCEPT for one small point he fails to remember.

HE BLEW OUT HIS ARM AND HAD TO BE SHUT DOWN. Just a little thing but something to consider when talking about his future. (Just like Lorenzo Barcelo according to Jumbotron Ron was one of the "keys" to the White Flag Deal. He did us a lot of good didn't he with his bad shoulder?)

A guy like Suppan or Finley or whomever won't cost that much and provides a little bit of insurance. So what's the big deal? Even our intrepid GM in today's paper said he's still toying with the idea of bringing in a free agent pitcher.

Voodoo says, "If July rolls around and the Sox desperately need another pitcher then they can worry about acquiring someone via trade,"

My point is why wait until July? Do it now when the price of poker (i.e. getting a pitcher) isn't sky high because you are fighting the Red Sox or the Mariners (or the Cubs?) who are desperate for pitching help. (Or do you want to see Kenny make another 3 for 1 deal???)

Lip

Randar68
01-16-2003, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Woo hoo - we got a serious debate here... fascinating how split we are on this one... I am just shocked so many people are set on "developing" Rauch this season. Anyone remember Jack McDowell went back down to the minors after his first full season and then came back as a stud a couple years later? Rauch is not gonna be that good this season, and I'd rather see him spend it in triple A while we actually try to win a damn ring. If everyone is convinced we have no chance at the Series, then why are we even excited we got Colon?? So we can win a division and get booted in the play-offs? LAME. I don't know the whole FA list right now, but I'd take a lot of guys in the #5 spot over Rauch, frankly - Finley, Rogers, Suppan, and probably a few others...

And I think dibber's point is a VERY GOOD one... Rauch would likely get his chance ANYWAY, because someone WILL get injured during the season. Why not have a backup??

Oh well, guess there's just two opinions on this, and both sides feel strongly.

Personally, I feel Rauch will be our #3 pitcher by mid season. This is from seeing him pitch healthy in the minors on several occasions. When he had most of his velocity and control back at the end of the season, he was dominating. Was he handled incorrectly initially? No Question.

What you and Dibber are saying are 2 different things. Dibber wants someone in AAA with experience, just in case something happens or someone is ineffective.

You want someone to replace Rauch in the rotation.

Randar68
01-16-2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
A few points:

Jeremy says that Rauch was the minor league pitcher of the year and he's correct EXCEPT for one small point he fails to remember.

HE BLEW OUT HIS ARM AND HAD TO BE SHUT DOWN. Just a little thing but something to consider when talking about his future. (Just like Lorenzo Barcelo according to Jumbotron Ron was one of the "keys" to the White Flag Deal. He did us a lot of good didn't he with his bad shoulder?)


Apples to Oranges, as usual, Lip.

Rauch had minor shoulder issues which are no more severe than almost all pitchers endure in their careers at some point or another. Barcelo had Tommy John surgery, which later led to 2 severe shoulder issues.

All of that aside, Rauch has near flawless form and uses his legs exceptionally well. Barcelo was a guy who used his upper body and was fond of 3/4 arm angles that tear arms up.

But hey, why let little facts like these get in the way of completely useless line of reasoning?

Glad to see one day after we add Colon, people are back to normal pessimism.

34 Inch Stick
01-16-2003, 03:51 PM
My answer to the original question of this post.... we did, we got Bartolo Colon. How's that for replacing Rocky?

It looked like we were willing to go into this season with Rauch as our 5th two days ago. I am even more comfortable with him there now because he won't be under the pressure of long losing streaks created by Biddle and Wright.

Rauch's injury was two years ago. That is usually the time it takes to heal fully. I, like Randar, feel he is going to come on very strong this year. Leave the Jeff Suppan's of the world to the Royals. I want pitcher's who are great or have the ability to be great. All five of our starters fit the bill.

pudge
01-16-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
My answer to the original question of this post.... we did, we got Bartolo Colon. How's that for replacing Rocky?

It looked like we were willing to go into this season with Rauch as our 5th two days ago. I am even more comfortable with him there now because he won't be under the pressure of long losing streaks created by Biddle and Wright.

Rauch's injury was two years ago. That is usually the time it takes to heal fully. I, like Randar, feel he is going to come on very strong this year. Leave the Jeff Suppan's of the world to the Royals. I want pitcher's who are great or have the ability to be great. All five of our starters fit the bill.

Ah ha, but in reality, Colon replaced Ritchie, who was SUPPOSED to be our #2 for a couple years, but we all know how that worked.

pudge
01-16-2003, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Apples to Oranges, as usual, Lip.


Glad to see one day after we add Colon, people are back to normal pessimism.

Normal pessimism?? Thinking that a second-year pitcher (who is coming off an injury from the year before) is going to suddenly be good enough to be our #3 is idiotic. But hey, I guess we'll see how the Rauch thing plays out this year. When he gets bombed, you can bet I'll be running back to this thread..... Or it may be Wright who gets bombed... either way, I think one or both will suck. BUT, believe me when I say, I'd much rather you turn out to be right, I turn out to be wrong!!

jeremyb1
01-16-2003, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Yep, and I for one expect that exact thing to happen. Which is why I feel another veteran starter is unnecessary. Randar is right - another veteran will only slow the development of these kids. Besides if they don't turn the corner this year, 2 of them can be packaged for whatever ace is available next July...


truthfully i agree with you. i just think its a mistake to ever predict the world series. we won 95 games in '00 and look what happened. a lot of things have to fall our way.

hold2dibber
01-17-2003, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Randar is right - another veteran will only slow the development of these kids. Besides if they don't turn the corner this year, 2 of them can be packaged for whatever ace is available next July...


Another veteran working long relief in the bullpen (or staying ready in Charlotte) is not going to impede the development of the kids.

34 Inch Stick
01-17-2003, 10:03 AM
No pudge, in reality Colon is replacing Biddle. You are saying the replacement is from last year's opening day rotation. I am saying the replacement is from Monday's anticipated opening day rotation this year. Most people figured Buhrle, Garland, Wright, Rauch and Biddle.

I got a pudge after I heard that Colon was on the team.

soxgal40
01-17-2003, 10:15 AM
i think we desperatley need to replace biddle. i think parque would be good. just give him another chance. he's been with the white sox for about six years. seriously, don't you guys think he should be given another chance. remember, last season he was still recovering from surgery. it's not like he was pitching really bad for no reason. i say give parque another chance.

hold2dibber
01-17-2003, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by soxgal40
i think we desperatley need to replace biddle. i think parque would be good. just give him another chance. he's been with the white sox for about six years. seriously, don't you guys think he should be given another chance. remember, last season he was still recovering from surgery. it's not like he was pitching really bad for no reason. i say give parque another chance.

I'm not sure what Parque's status is right now - I thought I heard he couldn't resign with the Sox until May 1. In any event, I've always liked Parque and think that if/when he gets healthy, he has a chance to be a decent pitcher again. He would, presumably, come very cheap. But it ain't gonna happen - I think the Sox did offer him a contract ($500,000 maybe?) and he turned it down. I think there are some hard feelings between him and management.

voodoochile
01-17-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by soxgal40
i think we desperatley need to replace biddle. i think parque would be good. just give him another chance. he's been with the white sox for about six years. seriously, don't you guys think he should be given another chance. remember, last season he was still recovering from surgery. it's not like he was pitching really bad for no reason. i say give parque another chance.

Parque was non-tendered and will not be back with the team. Thought he already signed with someone. Must be thinking of Ritchie...

pudge
01-17-2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
No pudge, in reality Colon is replacing Biddle. You are saying the replacement is from last year's opening day rotation. I am saying the replacement is from Monday's anticipated opening day rotation this year. Most people figured Buhrle, Garland, Wright, Rauch and Biddle.

I got a pudge after I heard that Colon was on the team.

But when you really think about next year's *anticipated* rotation, it DID contain Ritchie up until the point we decided not to pick up his second year. I agree with your logic IF we had only signed Ritchie for one year, but we were supposed to have him for two. I'm looking at this from a year-to-year standpoint. Colon is our #2, replacing our old #2. We still lost a guy who was supposed to be in our rotation - Colon does not fill Biddle's spot. (Actually, Colon is big enough to fill several spots, but that's another thread.)

oldcomiskey
01-17-2003, 05:06 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lip Man 1
[B]"With Colon, the White Sox now have the second-best starting rotation in the AL Central. The Minnesota Twins still have the division's best staff (with Eric Milton, Brad Radke, Joe Mays, Rick Reed and Kyle Lohse)."--Dave Campbell ESPN

Another Campbell quote

"Frank Thomas flat out cant hit"

Randar68
01-17-2003, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Normal pessimism?? Thinking that a second-year pitcher (who is coming off an injury from the year before) is going to suddenly be good enough to be our #3 is idiotic.

It sure is when you can't tell talent from a pile of manure... Now I see why you are so freaked.

Randar68
01-17-2003, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by pudge
But when you really think about next year's *anticipated* rotation, it DID contain Ritchie up until the point we decided not to pick up his second year. I agree with your logic IF we had only signed Ritchie for one year, but we were supposed to have him for two. I'm looking at this from a year-to-year standpoint. Colon is our #2, replacing our old #2. We still lost a guy who was supposed to be in our rotation - Colon does not fill Biddle's spot. (Actually, Colon is big enough to fill several spots, but that's another thread.)


DUMBEST




POST




EVER.

Randar68
01-17-2003, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey

Another Campbell quote

"Frank Thomas flat out cant hit"

Unless he plays on the east coast.

gogosoxgogo
01-17-2003, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by pudge
But when you really think about next year's *anticipated* rotation, it DID contain Ritchie up until the point we decided not to pick up his second year. I agree with your logic IF we had only signed Ritchie for one year, but we were supposed to have him for two. I'm looking at this from a year-to-year standpoint. Colon is our #2, replacing our old #2. We still lost a guy who was supposed to be in our rotation - Colon does not fill Biddle's spot. (Actually, Colon is big enough to fill several spots, but that's another thread.)

:whoflungpoo

I don't agree with that logic at all. You have to be able to adjust to change and put the best starters possible in the rotation. You don't go out and acquire a James Baldwin type just for the hell of it to replace Ritchie as Colon replaces Biddle.

pudge
01-19-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
:whoflungpoo

I don't agree with that logic at all. You have to be able to adjust to change and put the best starters possible in the rotation. You don't go out and acquire a James Baldwin type just for the hell of it to replace Ritchie as Colon replaces Biddle.


Whoa, whoa... for the record, no way in hell do I want JB back. And I said Colon has replaced Ritchie, so now who replaces Biddle, who probably would have been the #5? I'm talking a Rogers or Finely, and I'm just stunned some people are so against that idea.

I remember being against the signings of Navarro and Drabek back in '97, but that was different, because they were supposed to be our #1 and #2, and they were not at all qualified. But we're talking about filling the #5 spot. Heck even Suppan wouldn't be a bad fill for #5.

pudge
01-19-2003, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


It sure is when you can't tell talent from a pile of manure... Now I see why you are so freaked.


DUMBEST




POST




EVER.

Wait a second, I think I just figured it out.... Randar is really Jon Rauch!!

gogosoxgogo
01-19-2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Whoa, whoa... for the record, no way in hell do I want JB back. And I said Colon has replaced Ritchie, so now who replaces Biddle, who probably would have been the #5? I'm talking a Rogers or Finely, and I'm just stunned some people are so against that idea.

I remember being against the signings of Navarro and Drabek back in '97, but that was different, because they were supposed to be our #1 and #2, and they were not at all qualified. But we're talking about filling the #5 spot. Heck even Suppan wouldn't be a bad fill for #5.

I'd rather have Rauch in the #5 role than Suppan. He'll be cheaper so we can save money for all of our free agents and arbitration eligible and I think he'll be a hell of lot better over the entire season. I understand that we need to replace Biddle in terms of adding another pitcher to our 25-man roster, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we have to go out and acquire a quasi-big name free agent. In case you don't realize, the Sox are stacked with guys who could fill Biddle's spot in the minors and will probably make an appearance sometime next year.