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View Full Version : Should Buehrle Be Traded?


Lip Man 1
01-12-2003, 01:29 PM
Steve Rosenbloom in his latest column brought up an interesting point.

Since it sure looks like the relationship between Mark Buehrle and Sox management (and I use that term loosely) appears to be going the direction of Jack McDowell, Alex Fernandez, Wilson Alvarez and Roberto Hernandez, at what point do the Sox consider trading him?

Do they do it now when his value is highest and they might be able to get two or three good players in return?

Do they wait until a year before he leaves as a free agent (a la the Royals with Carlos Beltran) when they can still get something for him?

or do they wait until his free agent year when other clubs know he's leaving and may not offer as much?

Just wondering what you think. Notice I'm already concluding it's a foregone conclusion that Buehrle WILL be leaving unless something happens to the current owner (who is 66) in the next two years.

Lip

Jerry_Manuel
01-12-2003, 02:01 PM
I'd move him now if they could get a stud pitcher in return.

Knowing the Sox, they'll do the same thing that they did with Foulke.

duke of dorwood
01-12-2003, 02:27 PM
He's an unhappy player here, obviously. The monster was created last year and I cant believe it wont effect other players on the team too. It may be best to move him now, while a guy like Colon is available to replace him.

WinningUgly!
01-12-2003, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1


Do they do it now when his value is highest and they might be able to get two or three good players in return?



Hello? This is the Sox we're talking about, right? They don't do anything based on value, everything is done because of cost. I don't see the Sox spending several million dollars on the "2 or 3 good players" that they would get in return for the inexpensive Mark Buehrle. They'll wait until the trade deadline of his final year.


Just for the record...I believe this whole Buehrle/Sox relationship is being blown way out of proportion. He'll eventually sign a longterm deal to stay here.

idseer
01-12-2003, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Hello? This is the Sox we're talking about, right? They don't do anything based on value, everything is done because of cost. I don't see the Sox spending several million dollars on the "2 or 3 good players" that they would get in return for the inexpensive Mark Buehrle. They'll wait until the trade deadline of his final year.


Just for the record...I believe this whole Buehrle/Sox relationship is being blown way out of proportion. He'll eventually sign a longterm deal to stay here.

exactly what is this optimistic viewpoint based on?
cause i've seen NOTHING .... that indicates mark has ANY feelings for this ownership. and all kinds of indications he can't WAIT to leave!

gogosoxgogo
01-12-2003, 04:50 PM
Only if we can get Zito in return... it's not going to happen, so don't trade him. I also agree that this thing is blown out of proportion. Plus, he's with us until 2007!

gogosoxgogo
01-12-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by idseer
exactly what is this optimistic viewpoint based on?
cause i've seen NOTHING .... that indicates mark has ANY feelings for this ownership. and all kinds of indications he can't WAIT to leave!

Rejecting a contract offer because he can make more money in future years does not necessarily mean that he is gone the first chance he gets.

Daver
01-12-2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
Only if we can get Zito in return... it's not going to happen, so don't trade him. I also agree that this thing is blown out of proportion. Plus, he's with us until 2007!

He's a FA after the 2006 season,unless he is under contract.

gogosoxgogo
01-12-2003, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by daver
He's a FA after the 2006 season,unless he is under contract.

Sorry for not being clear. I meant that we had him up until but not including the 2007 season, meaning his last year with us in his current contract would be 2006.

idseer
01-12-2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
Rejecting a contract offer because he can make more money in future years does not necessarily mean that he is gone the first chance he gets.

you didn't answer the question.

he's already indicated he wants to pitch for someone else ... no matter how you try to spin it by saying he was joking etc. he SAID it ... and i've read from someone who was there that he MEANT it. he just didn't realize he'd been overheard. plus you can imagine how he felt about last year negotiations.

now, rejecting the 7 or 8 million by itself doesn't indicate he wants to leave ... but it sure no indication he wants to stay. knowing he'd rather gamble on his success and squeeze everything he can out of the sox tells me he's not exactly in love with this organization.

tell me why you think it's overblown and that he'll stay!

doublem23
01-12-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by idseer
exactly what is this optimistic viewpoint based on?
cause i've seen NOTHING .... that indicates mark has ANY feelings for this ownership. and all kinds of indications he can't WAIT to leave!

Buehrle has said many times on interviews that he's grateful to the Sox for picking him and that he feels he is somewhat indebted to the organization.

I agree with WU, that the whole Sox vs. Buehrle "hatred" is way blown out of proportion. Why would Mark sign a deal that would take a year off his contract, when he knows he's going to get a big payday come arbitration?

michigan84
01-12-2003, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Buehrle has said many times on interviews that he's grateful to the Sox for picking him and that he feels he is somewhat indebted to the organization.


What's he supposed to say? Is he supposed to say he wants to leave? Players always say stuff like that even if they don't mean it. The fact that he already stated that he wanted to pitch for another organization does not sit well with me! I don't care what context he said it in! I think we should deal him IF we can get some multiple can't miss prospects in return. I don't think next season, but the season after that.

doublem23
01-12-2003, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by michigan84
What's he supposed to say? Is he supposed to say he wants to leave? Players always say stuff like that even if they don't mean it. The fact that he already stated that he wanted to pitch for another organization does not sit well with me! I don't care what context he said it in! I think we should deal him IF we can get some multiple can't miss prospects in return. I don't think next season, but the season after that.

So he's said two things, both 180 degress apart. Who's to say what he means and what he doesn't? Certainly not you or me.

Brian26
01-12-2003, 08:38 PM
McDowell had one decent season after he left and Robo has been consistent over the past five years, but Alvarez and Fernandez never did anything after they left. 4 more years is a long time and a lot of things can happen in baseball, good or bad. Let's just enjoy Buehrle while he lasts, hope he stays healthy until the end of 2006 and see what happens.

WinningUgly!
01-12-2003, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by idseer
exactly what is this optimistic viewpoint based on?
cause i've seen NOTHING .... that indicates mark has ANY feelings for this ownership. and all kinds of indications he can't WAIT to leave!

I'm sure he doesn't have any good feelings for this ownership, but does that necessarily mean he is miserable here & wants out the 1st chance he gets? He's having personal success here. Hopefully team success is not far behind. Those two things, along with an eventual big payday (it's coming) & enjoying it all with the guys he came up through the minors with, will go a long way in getting him to stick around.

I just don't buy into all of the spin that has been put on the comments Buehrle supposedly made. Wasn't it at a St. Louis area sports banquet or something like that? He grew up in the St. Louis area as a Cards fan. I don't see the big deal in jokingly making the comments at an event where the Cardinal Kool-Aid was flowing pretty heavily. Nothing more than a "When in Rome" thing.

jeremyb1
01-12-2003, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
He's an unhappy player here, obviously. The monster was created last year and I cant believe it wont effect other players on the team too. It may be best to move him now, while a guy like Colon is available to replace him.

it seems to me like everyone is losing sight of how long buehrle has left on his deal. why would we trade buehrle a player who's better than colon when buehrle has 4 years left on his deal to colon's one year?

additionally one for three trades are ussually not all that productive. it means the other team will be getting the best player in the deal. everyone's seen how hard it is to get a number two starter at a low price. it would be much much harder to obtain a number one starter at a low price. how could we replace the four years left on buehrle's deal? as far as i see it he's the best thing we have going for us. a 24 year old ace. i don't know how we could get fair market value in return for him unless we could trade for one of oakland's big three, prior, or josh becket. buehrle's the least replacable player on our roster. i don't know why we'd trade him unless we're convinced we can't compete for the next three seasons.

additionally, i have to agree that the talk of buehrle wanting to leave has been blown incredibly out of proportion by a number of posters on this board. most have taken the absolute worst possible meaning out of every one of his actions. there might not be reason to believe buehrle currently wants to stay after free agency but there's been absolutely no reason to believe that buehrle is upset and unhappy with the sox and will be disruptive because of it. give me a break. because there's another team he (may or may not) rather play for that means he's completely unhappy with the sox? or because he wants a better deal he now hates the organization and wants out? please. you guys are going out of your way to read the worst into this situation. all we know is that he's had trouble coming to a financial agreement with the team and he made what he claims was a joke to the cards' gm over a year ago.

michigan84
01-12-2003, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
So he's said two things, both 180 degress apart. Who's to say what he means and what he doesn't? Certainly not you or me.

He made the St. Louis comment in personal context where he did not want to announce it to the whole world. This would indicate more of his true feeling to me! The other comment was made to save public face in my opinion.

Lip Man 1
01-12-2003, 10:18 PM
Jeremy says:

but there's been absolutely no reason to believe that buehrle is upset and unhappy with the sox

Well let's look and see...

1. He made his comment in St. Louis and Kenny Williams responded in the Chicago newspapers saying how "disappointed" he was with that statement. That was his quote...hmmmm it sure seems like Kenny took it seriously didn't he?

2. Buehrle rejected the Sox offer last Spring

3. The Sox in another short sighted, spiteful move, CUT their initial offer fifteen thousand dollars after Buehrle said "no." Coincidence?

4. Buehrle now rejected a multi year deal that may or may not (depending on who you read or believe) be a good one from a money offered standpoint.

Sure seems like something's going on. (If it smells like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck... it's a duck!)

Plus everyone is educated about how this organization acts, reacts and treats pitching. The history is there. The same owner runs the club, the tiger is NOT going to change his stripes is he?

Looking back this situation is even worse after the first three years then McDowell's was after the same amount of time, and we saw how that turned out. The only issue that McDowell had after three years was being sent down to the minors after the 88 season which some claimed was because the Sox didn't want him to hit his free agent period so soon. When you're in the minors you don't accumulate service time.

Lip

WinningUgly!
01-12-2003, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1

one for three trades are ussually not all that productive. it means the other team will be getting the best player in the deal.

Like when we landed Todd Ritchie? :)

jeremyb1
01-12-2003, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Jeremy says:

but there's been absolutely no reason to believe that buehrle is upset and unhappy with the sox

Well let's look and see...

1. He made his comment in St. Louis and Kenny Williams responded in the Chicago newspapers saying how "disappointed" he was with that statement. That was his quote...hmmmm it sure seems like Kenny took it seriously didn't he?

2. Buehrle rejected the Sox offer last Spring

3. The Sox in another short sighted, spiteful move, CUT their initial offer fifteen thousand dollars after Buehrle said "no." Coincidence?

4. Buehrle now rejected a multi year deal that may or may not (depending on who you read or believe) be a good one from a money offered standpoint.

Sure seems like something's going on. (If it smells like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck... it's a duck!)


maybe i should've better clarified what i meant by unhappy. i didn't mean simply "not entirely pleased" with the organization. when i used the word unhappy i was referring to peoples' arguments that we might have to trade buehrle because he's so upset with the organization that this sentiment will rub off on other players and affect his performance.

no one really knows exactly what buehrle meant by his comment to jockety last offseason. williams was initially upset but buehrle claimed it was a joke. seeing as how several stories have described buehrle's sense of humor as very dry and perhaps even a little off kilter its hard to definitively say we know whether or not he was serious. even if he was serious, that wouldn't mean he was unhappy with the sox just because there's somewhere else he'd rather be. if i would rather have my favorite ice cream, mint chocolate chip, but i'm given my second favorite kind, vanilla, instead, i'm not incredibly unhappy that i'm eating vanilla ice cream.

i'm sure buehrle was not happy about the b.s. we pulled on his negotiations last season. he said as much. it wasn't a good move on our part. however, i heard nothing about him causing problems last season and his level of unhappiness obviously didn't hurt his performance.

the fact that buehrle rejected the sox initial offer last season means very little to me. it means he would've liked more money and thought it was within reason to ask for it. i'm sure this isn't a move he would've taken without his agent's approval. this simply establishes that buehrle would like a lot of money from us. more money than we consider to be fair. that also explains why he rejected our 3 year deal. there doesn't have to be anything personal about it. its merely a business issue. if he says "i'd like to take my chances and see if i can't make more money in arbitration" that's not the same as him rejecting our deal out of spite.

voodoochile
01-13-2003, 12:53 AM
Buehrle owes the Sox 4 years of work. Nothing anyone does or says can change that fact. Why would anyone assume that just because there is a problem right now, that there will be one 2 years from now? These are grown men we are talking about. I think the Buehrle to St Louis is real enough, but, for the moment, he can't get there unless we allow it.

Why would Buehrle jump at the first offer the Sox make to him right now. He has them right where he wants them. They really HAVE to make a solid offer to him for the upcoming season or look really, really bad in the local media. I bet he makes more this coming season on a single year contract than he would have made under the terms of whatever multi-year contract they were offering him. Then he has a higher starting place to start from when he does sit down to talk long term deal, plus he has a whole year to get the long term deal he really wants.

But if push comes to shove and the Sox and MB do end up burning their bridges one by one until the end of 2005, then look for them to trade him that off-season for prospects. But, hey, that gives us 3 years to win it all while the kid plays on the southside...

CLR01
01-13-2003, 01:39 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I think the Buehrle to St Louis is real enough, but, for the moment, he can't get there unless we allow it.[/COLOR]

I agree he might of meant what he said but knowing he was the staff ace at the time of the comments i would think he would be smart enough to know there is no way in hell any deals would actually go through. Ofcourse i dont know the guy so... Also i dont buy the fact that because the comments were made, joking or not, that Buehrle wants out of chicago. What player wouldnt want to play for the team he grew up watching? I'm sure many players dream of playing for their home town teams.

idseer
01-13-2003, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by CLR01
I agree he might of meant what he said but knowing he was the staff ace at the time of the comments i would think he would be smart enough to know there is no way in hell any deals would actually go through. Ofcourse i dont know the guy so... Also i dont buy the fact that because the comments were made, joking or not, that Buehrle wants out of chicago. What player wouldnt want to play for the team he grew up watching? I'm sure many players dream of playing for their home town teams.

why is it so hard to believe MB wants out of chicago?
i DO know a LOT of players have the sox on there list of unacceptable teams to be traded to. i wonder just how many refuse to play for this team. i would bet the odds are more than half of all players want nothing to do with reinsdork or his teams.

hold2dibber
01-13-2003, 09:12 AM
I also believe the Buehrle situation has been way over blown. First, I don't think he was joking about wanting to go to St. Louis. But that doesn't mean squat to me. I'm sure 90% of MLB players have a team they grew up rooting for who they'd like to play for at some point. But that doesn't mean that's where they end up. If the Sox offer Buehrle a long term contract beyond '06 that he thinks is in line with the market, I don't think he'll turn it down because he grew up a Cards fan.

Second, the negotiations this off season are irrelevant to what happens after '06. The deal would have only taken him through '05 anyway, so it would not have in anyway lengthed his stay on the South Side. Based up on that, I don't know how anyone can conclude that his rejecting the deal is indicative of a desire to leave. If the Sox had offered a truly big money deal thorugh, for example, '08 and he said no, that would be a different story.

It is true that the Sox b.s., bush-league tactics of last offseason in dealing with Buehrle almost certainly pissed him off. But they have 4 years to make it up to him. Here's hoping they do so (if I were them, whatever numbered he asked for this year, I'd say yes, then add $30,000).

34 Inch Stick
01-13-2003, 11:12 AM
Things that will happen by the end of the 2006 season: Presidential elections; Governor's elections (primaries, with general in November 2006); 4 World Series; regime change in Iraq; 648 regular season games played by the Sox; several more contracts offered to Buhrle; new Sox manager installed. The list, of course, could go on and on. Let's bring this conversation back up when the issue is a little more ripe. As for now, no on a trade of Burhle.

ma-gaga
01-13-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
But, hey, that gives us 3 years to win it all while the kid plays on the southside...

Don't you have a bet out there?

voodoochile
01-13-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
Don't you have a bet out there?

Yep, by they have to win it all by the end of 2006...